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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsOn rape culture discussions...
And there have been many threads on this topic over the past few weeks. There has been some who seem to think that rape culture doesn't exist or that there is an exaggeration of some sort going on. Given the events of the past couple of days, I would submit that we need to continue to discuss rape and the culture in which it occurs and is even justified by some. Sexual assault does not occur as isolated and self-contained events. Cultural aspects bleed into these events at all levels from the micro level with the family to the macro level with laws and their implementation and the messages conveyed by the media.
Unless you have been a rape victim, it is easy to discount. When you have been raped it permeates every aspect of your interactions with your environment and others. It is difficult to shake rape as the filter through which you see others and circumstances, and you truly never do. Until now I have not interjected myself in the discussions. I am a rape survivor, one preyed upon as a child. A half a century later, those rapes are as vivid in my mind as when they occurred. The hypervigilance gets triggered and the mistrust of others is a clenched fist in the gut. Do not discount the experiences of those who have been assaulted and do not minimize the responsibility and the viciousness of those who perpetrate these crimes. Keep discussing and above all listen.
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sufrommich
(22,871 posts)It's important for people who have never been raped to realize triggers can be an everyday experience. 
ismnotwasm
(42,674 posts)I've never been raped but I've been seriously attacked with intent to rape, and was lucky enough to get away. Twice.
It puts its mark on you.
I'm sorry for your experience and I wish there could be a straightforward discussion, but it gets sidetracked and derailed and misconstrued.
Excellent OP
zerosumgame0005
(207 posts)I was working as manager and sole employee of a store in Oakland. Two guys came in rob the store but found little cash. They threatened and beat me trying to find a safe (there wasn't one) so instead they raped me and left me bleeding and unconscious. It happens more often then people will admit. But I refused to ID the guys the pigs tried to make me say it was. They presented a spread of photo's, none of them were the ones, but they kept pointing to some black men who were not the ones hoping to charge the wrong men. At least a part of the problem is the intent of LEO's are to get anyone behind bars for any reason. No matter who is really guilty so the bad ones will still be out there to keep on doing it...
Response to Skidmore (Original post)
Post removed
siligut
(12,272 posts)
curlyred
(1,879 posts)siligut
(12,272 posts)I am just aghast.
That poster should be shown the door.
ellisonz
(27,776 posts)
siligut
(12,272 posts) 
Skidmore
(37,364 posts)Last edited Thu May 9, 2013, 07:28 AM - Edit history (1)
to tack my response on but his/her post is hidden so I can't directly respond there. I do want to make a more public response than a PM.
First of all, michigandem58, your response was the very discounting I was speaking of and is part of that rape culture. What makes someone an "expert" on rape and its effects in your estimation? Studying about it? Is academic study the only way for people to gain expertise? I submit that every man, woman, and child who has been raped fully understands rape culture and its impact, from the violent act that was the source of whatever trauma they have experienced to the laws that are sometimes not applied to give them justice or a sense of safety by removing the perpetrator to those in society who discount their experiences the way in which you just did.
As for your snarky snappy repartee that "it was just one incident," I will remain polite, but I felt like vomiting when I read that. Without having one bit of actual knowledge (your claim to expertise), you discounted a protracted period of hellish treatment for me from the time I was about 4 years old until I was in my early teens. Multiple assaults that were not addressed at anytime by the legal system or the health care system or the community at large. The very discounting you just did is part of shaming and blaming that occurs. Even one incident makes a difference in a person's life, let alone years of such incidents. This is rape culture. The hypersexualization of popular culture combined with indifference and a willingness to turn a blind eye and to discount. If people like me do not have expertise, who does? And you, I daresay, are part of the rape culture too.
Sissyk
(12,665 posts)you went through that as a child. I hope you have found peace and happiness.
siligut
(12,272 posts)I am lucky you addressed the post to me, as otherwise I might have missed it. You respond with uncommon compassion and if michigandem58 reads and doesn't learn from this, there must be some sort of mental aberration not usually found in a liberal.
You especially were able to express why rape has such a tenacious and persistent effect on an individual here: I submit that every man, woman, and child who has been raped fully understands rape culture and its impact, from the violent act that was the source of whatever trauma they have experienced to the laws that are sometimes not applied to give them justice or a sense of safety by removing the perpetrator to those in society who discount their experiences the way in which you just did.
One of the jurors for michigandem58's post emailed me the results and the decision to hide was unanimous. I doubt michigandem58 will return to this thread and am tempted to just go to his last post and respond with a copy of your post. However, I sense that the effort would be wasted and possible against DU's unspoken anti-stalking rules.
Skidmore
(37,364 posts)PM the URL for it to him/her. I very much want people to understand that both the perpetrator and victim are members of communities and it the collectives within which people live and interact which create the culture. This consensus drives the public and private narratives, actions, and inactions.
Thank you.
niyad
(132,440 posts)of gun violence is qualified to speak to the issue of gun violence.
siligut
(12,272 posts)Skidmore's post may have been too complex to follow through to the end so the hidden poster just thought it was uppity and felt compelled to insult the OP.
I hadn't realized that pukes are claiming gun violence victims aren't qualified to speak to the issue of gun violence. Of course, they just make up anything that suits their agenda, they don't care about truth, which is why they sound so stupid most of the time. They would say that anyone who disagrees with them is unqualified to speak.
niyad
(132,440 posts)(google "gabby giffords not qualified to speak on gun violence" or "newtown survivors not qualified to speak on gun violence". the links were beyond appalling.
. . .
Here's Sen. James Inhofe (R-OK), who believes that the families of children murdered in cold blood in Sandy Hook Elementary School last December are mistaken; the debate over gun violence doesn't have anything to do with them:
Eleven family members of Newtown victims were in Washington on Tuesday, meeting privately with senators to urge them to support a forthcoming gun package that would impose tighter background checks, crack down on gun trafficking and enhance school safety measures. Speaking to a handful of reporters, Inhofe said he feels bad for those families because they're being used as pawns in a political fight.
"See, I think it's so unfair of the administration to hurt these families, to make them think this has something to do with them when, in fact, it doesn't," Inhofe said.
When it was suggested that the families of Newtown victims actually believe the gun debate pertains to them, Inhofe said, "Well, that's because they've been told that by the president."
Having a child actually killed by gun violence does not, in fact, qualify you as someone whose opinion "pertains" to the topic of gun violence? Inhofe is willing to go even that far—to dismiss the families of actual victims of a mass murder from discussion over what to do about mass murder? Why? Who does James Inhofe, crapsack, perceive the actual parties involved in the "gun debate" to be? The NRA gets a seat at the table, but the families of actual, recent victims are only there as pawns? Ammunition companies need valiant representation from the good representative of Crapsackistan, but the people whose children caught those bullets in the face due to one unbalanced man who felt like doing it, those people do not?
. . . .
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/04/09/1200476/-Inhofe-on-victims-families-Obama-made-them-think-gun-debate-has-something-to-do-with-them
siligut
(12,272 posts)The hidden poster seems to be young and may be easily influenced by authority. This is a generous assessment.
Is there a word that describes the power that money has to qualify idiocy? Ludicrous hints at it, sounding a little like lucre and meaning foolish, but we may actually need a new word. One to pinpoint and contain the nebulous insanity.
The disbelief at Inhofe's position, seen in Mark Barden's face, needs a name.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/09/mark-barden-jim-inhofe_n_3249810.html?utm_hp_ref=politics
galileoreloaded
(2,571 posts)its a worthy endeavor
RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)Hides sex via lack of education, apartheid, and glass ceilings, among other ways.
We have to educate our children about sex; in the schools, and in the community if we are ever to change the culture.
Whisp
(24,096 posts)siligut
(12,272 posts)
Gravitycollapse
(8,155 posts)I think it's unwise to entirely separate the two. Although I agree that rape is not primarily about sexual gratification.
raccoon
(32,390 posts)Whisp
(24,096 posts)sex is intercourse between 2 willing people is how I've always seen it. If it's not that, it's something else then.
If it is against the victim's will - if a bottle or some other object were used to invade the body - that is not sex, that is just plain assault, so if he does use his penis as a weapon, that isn't either - it's assault.
Gravitycollapse
(8,155 posts)then lesbians could never have sex.
Intercourse is a form of sex. But there are many others.
Whisp
(24,096 posts)or intercourse or any name we can call it. That is what my point is. I think you misunderstood because I didn't think for a second about that thing you brought up in regards to lesbian lovers.
zazen
(2,978 posts)They learn to eroticize objectification and domination of women and condition their arousal to it. For them, it is sex.
People who are aroused by physically connecting with another person they love, or a playful consensual interaction with someone to whom they're attracted but have no other relationship, are also having sex. People who eroticize dominance and submission but would never dream of dominating another adult without their prior consent and then engage in consensual BDSM are also having sex.
I think you're referring to an idealized version of sex, with which I agree (well, I'd like to think it is the reality, but it's not), but it's critical to understand that how this behavior gets its additional justification by these bastards as well as propulsion is because it is experienced in their bodies _as sex._
They get off on it.
I'm paraphrasing Catharine MacKinnon on all of this. She's got a great chapter on it in _Feminism Unmodified: Discourses on Life and Law_ (1986).
Tansy_Gold
(18,167 posts)siligut
(12,272 posts)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_movement_desensitization_and_reprocessing
I hope people will read your post and take your advice.
Response to Skidmore (Original post)
Post removed
uriel1972
(4,261 posts)LittleBlue
(10,362 posts)These threads will spawn a half dozen supportive response threads, then the retaliation threads will come. These threads have been done to death.
The gender wars discussions make GD suck.
siligut
(12,272 posts)Most often as boys.
G_j
(40,569 posts)but yes, there it is. What the OP states
is upfront, honest and intelligent, and is speaking from (terrible) experience.
I just have to think that anyone having a problem with it, has a very serious problem themselves.
ellisonz
(27,776 posts)...and your comment sucks.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)Not atypical for DU (or elsewhere).
ellisonz
(27,776 posts)I recommend dealing with the beef and then discussing the issue (see my posts below). 
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)Which seem pretty heartless in light of the OP.
ellisonz
(27,776 posts)Although the internet discussion board format seems to bring out more of it.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)"he gender wars discussions make GD suck..."
I imagine that illustrating and discussing widespread violence against individuals does tend to make a dogmatic mind rather uncomfortable to the point in which they project, and then assign motive to such discussions (i.e., "suck"
HangOnKids
(4,291 posts)
Squinch
(59,522 posts)
niyad
(132,440 posts)have the option of not reading threads on the subject.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)For the victims. You can ignore the posts you don't like. Some of us ,male and female, survivors, supporters of victims find healing by reading these ops and the posts by the members of the community. Some of us are new and weren't here for previous threads. I know when I read the posts of the survivors I feel less alone. Less victimized.
My cousin molested all of the kids in my family, male and female. We never knew he was doing it to everyone. We never spoke of it until we were grown. This helps me feel better.
Gravitycollapse
(8,155 posts)nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)the bigger, more important things they should be seeing. I meant the poster you were replying to, not the OP, in case that wasn't clear.
Starry Messenger
(32,381 posts)lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)Stores sell out of ammo, guns sell out quickly. NRA conventions and gun shows are big celebrity draws. Guns are advertised to young children. We have 88 guns per 100 people in the US. So yeah, I think we have a gun culture.
We arguably have a consumer culture. Companies spent $170 billion last year to persuade you to buy their stuff. The best advertisements go viral. People discuss, share, and obsess over the advertisements. The apple trademark triggers activity in the same regions in the brain as religous ephiphanies. So yeah, I think we have a consumer culture.
We have a judeo-christian culture. Christian values permeate our laws and even our holidays. I would say we have a judeo-christian culture, if not a judeo-christian government.
A rape culture?
I think I speak for just about everyone when I say that one rape is too many. This generally-accepted ethical framework is responsible for an 85% decrease in rape victimization since 1980, and rapists (when caught) are punished. No crime other than homicide is punished more severely, where guards turn a deaf ear as "the rapos" get special treatment by the other inmates.
Sensitivity to the victimization you experienced should not require blind acceptance of hyperbole.
I don't think rape culture exists, and to the extent that people react with disbelief instead of celebration upon learning that victimization has declined 85% since 1980, I do think there's "an exaggeration of some sort going on".
Gravitycollapse
(8,155 posts)could miss it.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)Arguing over what to call that is just splitting hairs IMO. But "rape culture" will do fine.
Gravitycollapse
(8,155 posts)nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)that rape is both a terrible thing ("one rape is too many" and widespread, but was still quibbling over the term "rape culture." He, not you, was the one I felt was splitting hairs.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)The reason it's so important is because it is intended to spread the responsibility for individual criminal acts onto a broader target population.
So, the difference between "crime" and "your criminal culture" is a meaningful one.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)If they are, then they're wrong, and I completely disagree with them. But within the larger society, there's no equivalent to, say, racial profiling of black men, when it comes to men (as a whole) and rape. If there were, then if nothing else a whole lot more assaults would be successfully prosecuted - leaving other, less desirable effects aside for the moment.
Again, if I felt men, all (or even most) men, were being profiled as rapists, then I would object. But that's not what's happening, as far as I can tell.
ellisonz
(27,776 posts)1. We definitely have a gun culture.
2. We definitely have a consumer culture.
3. We definitely have a Judeo-Christian culture (more Christian than Judeo).
4. And we definitely have a rape culture that permeates our popular media and school hallways, in fact, it reflects our culture as a whole because it is fundamentally rooted in gender.
What is so hard to accept about the fact that in the United States and around the world in fact, that we have people who develop cultural beliefs and practices around rape? Without it you would not make such a statement as "where guards turn a deaf ear as "the rapos" get special treatment by the other inmates," which is a contradictory statement given your denial. Do not the guards turn a blind-eye to (and probably practice) a culture where it is accepted that rape in prison is a social sub-culture of rape as a cultural practice at large? How many artistic depictions of this particular subculture much less the more dominant male on female rape culture do you need?
I strongly suggest you take some sociology if you haven't already and adjust your views, because otherwise your continued postings on this topic are nothing but myopic and moronic (and given the topic disturbing and offensive) and I refuse to hold my tongue any further. That such a culture would be part of the dominant American culture much less a worldwide culture is entirely logical and well-demonstrated given the continuing prevalence of rape in society as a social problem with substantial cultural implications.
Give it up because it's gotten old. 
UtahLib
(3,182 posts)I do find it very disturbing that some people seem to be more inclined to take personal offense rather than facing facts and working toward a solution to a deeply rooted cultural problem.
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)At least if you believe the numbers.
Lumberjack Jeff above cited a decline in rape since 1980.
The Bureau of Justice Statistics released a report in March: http://bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=4594
Female Victims of Sexual Violence, 1994-2010
Marcus Berzofsky, Dr.P.H., RTI, Christopher Krebs, Ph.D., RTI, Lynn Langton, Ph.D., BJS, Michael Planty, Ph.D., BJS, Hope Smiley-McDonald, Ph.D., RTI
March 7, 2013 NCJ 240655
Presents trends in the rate of completed or attempted rape or sexual assault against females from 1995 to 2010. The report examines demographic characteristics of female victims of sexual violence and characteristics of the offender and incident, including victim-offender relationship, whether the offender had a weapon, and the location of the victimization. The report also examines changes over time in the percentages of female victims of sexual violence who suffered an injury and received formal medical treatment, reported the victimization to the police, and received assistance from a victim service provider. Data are from the National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS), which collects information on nonfatal crimes, reported and not reported to the police, against persons age 12 or older from a nationally representative sample of U.S. households.
Highlights:
From 1995 to 2010, the estimated annual rate of female rape or sexual assault victimizations declined 58%, from 5.0 victimizations per 1,000 females age 12 or older to 2.1 per 1,000.
In 2005-10, females who were age 34 or younger, who lived in lower income households, and who lived in rural areas experienced some of the highest rates of sexual violence.
In 2005-10, the offender was armed with a gun, knife, or other weapon in 11% of rape or sexual assault victimizations.
In 2005-10, 78% of sexual violence involved an offender who was a family member, intimate partner, friend, or acquaintance.
-----
If we're going to talk about rape culture, we should at least acknowledge what's actually happening.
ellisonz
(27,776 posts)Just in brief from the press release:
http://bjs.gov/content/pub/press/fvsv9410pr.cfm
So even if rape like many other crimes is down overall, we're still likely not handling it very well at a high percentage in terms of reporting to the police and social services are still not provided in a majority of cases. I would also hazard that if the trend line is like say the trend line for gun homicides that we're seeing a plateauing of the crime rate. Can you say that there were less rapes this year than last year and the year before that? Probably not, and what matters in present is not a 25-year trend but a 5-year trend. People want progress now.
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)The report notes that despite the large decrease in reported sexual assualts, there are still 270,000 a year.
It remains a serious social problem, but real numbers are good. They suggest that, high-profile, media-sensationalized cases notwithstanding, acceptance of rape is on the decline.
ellisonz
(27,776 posts)...and I would hardly characterize 270,000 sexual assaults or 10,000 gun homicides as "good." One might ask, why the numbers are not much better given the supposed progress of society over the last few decades. I think making such a characterization even if some might view it as warranted is misleading regarding the overall situation which is that we still have an unacceptably high rate of sexual assault in this country. I don't think 15 year studies are very heartening to the 270,000 victims of sexual assault this year.
Gravitycollapse
(8,155 posts)Whether or not it is getting better is still debatable. I think the data grossly underrepresents sexual assault and harassment.
Even with the given numbers, the prevalence is still astounding. That so many violent attacks are carried out against women each year is disheartening, regardless of their relevance to prevalence 20 or 30 years ago.
Whisp
(24,096 posts)over that last ten years.
How would you explain that civilian cases are dropping but military cases are rising dramatically?
opiate69
(10,129 posts)Heh.. now that's funny!
http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Sociology
Sociology is a cult based around the intellectual pseudoscience of studying society. Originally popular with old bearded men who smoke pipes whilst reclining in arm-chairs, it has now managed to find a younger generation of converts thanks to its curricular introduction into sixth-form colleges and universities. Synonymous with Scientology, Sociology uses various methods of empirical investigation and critical analysis to develop and refine a body of knowledge and theory about human social activity. In short, once human activity is understood, its negative aspects can be better controlled and reformed.
ellisonz
(27,776 posts) opiate69
(10,129 posts)YMMV.
ellisonz
(27,776 posts)Is that where we're going with this? Tell us how you really feel rather than tap dancing with this categorical opposition to the basic tenets of modern sociology
opiate69
(10,129 posts)When the "sociologists" who are propagating the idea of "rape culture" base the accusation on the most egregious (and least prevalent) examples of societal behavior, (i.e. Steubenville, et al) they are in fact propagating nothing more than the Hasty Generalization Fallacy.
ellisonz
(27,776 posts)...if that's the specific argument you're going to make against the concept of culture in sociology in general in terms of qualitative much less quantitative analysis. You're full of shit and I would wager you never had any formal education in sociology, much less upper-division study or you wouldn't make such an asinine assertion about such a serious subject. Is this the best the Men's Group has?
opiate69
(10,129 posts)Perhaps some sociology students would be better served swapping "Sociology 210" for "Critical Thinking 105".
ellisonz
(27,776 posts)You're dismissing an entire discipline without so much as ever actually having taken coursework in it. Good Job, you might be the most anti-intellectual poster I've come across in 10 years of being on DU and that includes the assorted Freepers and wing-nuts that pass through - it's one thing to object to the argument that there is a rape culture as social fact, it's another to object to sociology as it's frankly been constructed as a discipline from the days of Durkheim.
Troglodyte. 
opiate69
(10,129 posts)I love the smell of self-important pseudo-intellectualism in the small hours...
opiate69
(10,129 posts)Ad Hominum, Appeal to Authority, all wrapped up in a bite -sized package of Appeal to Accomplishment. You know, whilst you were in school attaining your super-duper PhD in Sociology, or whatever horseshit you're trying to imply, dropping by the Critical Thinking classroom once in a while might have helped you learn how to construct a persuasive argument that isn't a text book example of rampant logical fallacy.
redqueen
(115,186 posts)And those aren't proper nouns.
Rex
(65,616 posts)Nothing easier than dismissing an entire field of study with google search! 
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)I imagine it is indeed, rather "convenient" to dismiss an academic discipline if it counters one's own "personal"and subjective opinions. We see the right wing do that "consistently" with climate science, biology and mathematics.
(I added the quotation marks to no real effect, but simply to look clever and cover up any lack of any knowledge I may have on the subject... much as you did)
opiate69
(10,129 posts)Brilliant!!
DanTex
(20,709 posts)Speaking of pseudointellectualism...
redqueen
(115,186 posts)opiate69
(10,129 posts)Such is life.. I suppose I could do like you normally do and self-delete, but I think I'll let them stay so you can enjoy your ever so rare victory!
redqueen
(115,186 posts)Wow. That's desperate.
opiate69
(10,129 posts)Of course, at this point it seems you're trying to wrest the title of "best derailer " - which you yourself bestowed upon me, before bravely self deleting your thread - from me...Anyway, enjoy your day, and do try not to be Really Quiet about all the social ills you encounter.
Edit: Oops.. my bad.. that was actually Beanie who so graciously bestowed that title upon me.. so hard to keep things straight, given that your styles, modus operandi and cause celebre are so often indistinguishable from one another. Why, a less trusting man than myself might begin to suspect there was some secret, off-site congregating space where you coordinated your DU interactions... but that, of course, would be crazy talk, no?
redqueen
(115,186 posts)And I'm sure the capitalization was purely an accident, too
Your paranoia is an amusing addition to this subthread. 
opiate69
(10,129 posts)Be sure to say hi to inveigle, spikeboy and MissTee for me.. wherever y'all may be hanging your hats these days...
Democracyinkind
(4,015 posts)DanTex
(20,709 posts)Unless the "u" and "e" keys on your cheap phone are next to each other.
Yay buzzwords!
opiate69
(10,129 posts) Democracyinkind
(4,015 posts)As someone who actually wasted years to get a degree in Philosophy, I'm positively offended by this logical fallacy bingo bullshit being posted just because it can be easily copypasted. Most of the times, it's just some pre- or permapubescent Randians randomly selecting and re-vomiting buzzwords which are devoid of any original reasoning and are therefore, loose from method and context, nothing but empty arguments from authority themselves.
And who'd ever question the philosophical worth of www.logicalfallacies.blogspot.com? Certainly not such a fierce "critical thinker" like this one. "Critical" indeed.
ellisonz
(27,776 posts)...is why there couldn't possibly be such a thing as "rape culture." Those women are just making things up! 
- Someone who wasted years to get a degree in History.
opiate69
(10,129 posts)However shall I carry on??
redqueen
(115,186 posts)
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)LOL!
liberalhistorian
(20,905 posts)has, here on DU, openly called child support "male enslavement", among other sensitive gems, and who then denied it when presented with links to prove it. He has made other derogatory comments regarding women and seems to have a problem with them. It's hopeless and useless when it comes to him, I don't even bother anymore. Although I'm shocked at the number of his followers who agree with him on here, utterly disgusting.
ellisonz
(27,776 posts)Frankly, they don't belong on DU and I'm surprised that such a comment was let to pass. Maybe I'll un-trash the Men's Group just to send alerts
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)Not terribly inventive, but it's at least a passtime that won't make you blind.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)The kind who go from thread to thread passive-aggressively misquoting comments several years old that at best constitute non-sequitur relationship to the topic at hand.
(Don't worry, dear. I'm sure he's not talking about you.)
liberalhistorian
(20,905 posts)about you and your sexist chauvinism, then put my ass on ignore. I really don't give a shit.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)Reading your posts gives me a warm feeling knowing that I'm not the one responsible for making DU suck.
In that sense, it is apparent that you truly don't give a shit.
If you like, I can forward you my itinerary so that you can stalk more efficiently.
liberalhistorian
(20,905 posts)like you, who discount the fact that there even IS such a thing as a rape culture even though you're not a woman and have fucking clue what you're talking about (you'd think Steubenville would have helped change your mind on that), and who show up in these threads talking down women's issues and concerns, are the ones who TRULY make DU suck.
lunatica
(53,410 posts)And most of the women who start these threads have been raped.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)Last edited Thu May 9, 2013, 03:56 PM - Edit history (1)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_in_the_United_States#Rate_of_victimizationThe NCVS is a questionnaire. Reporting the crime isn't an issue.
Skidmore
(37,364 posts)Children are preyed upon every single day whose stories only come to light after many years. Not every adult is observant. It is better now and there are supports but even those are not necessarily equally applied across jurisdictions or communities
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)I personally don't think that concepts like "rape culture" and "potential rapist" help in that regard.
Skidmore
(37,364 posts)Whether the culture is that within the family and the social network of the perpetrator or victim, the community, the state, the nation, or any other system with which either individual interacts. The unspoken agreement in communities that allows some of these individual to fly under the radar or to escape justice and the still present notion that the victim somehow invited the crime or is sullied by the rape is an expression of culture. Rape is an antisocial act occurring within a cultural context. How is progress "helped" by not recognizing the cluster of cultural interactions that contribute to the crime and its effects?
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)"Criminal conspiracy" <> "cultural norm". The fact that family members or other associates might cover for a criminal in their midst doesn't necessarily imply a culture.
It comes from the same motivation and is no more fair than blaming the actions of the Tsarnaev brothers on a terror culture. It's a rationale for a bigoted stereotype.
Skidmore
(37,364 posts)with your argument above for the existence of a gun culture. Sexual violence is glamorized in the media and has a market. Human trafficking is also a market catering to all sorts of "tastes". Sexual power is at once hawked in public and ignored when perverted just as the language of dissent can be twisted into calls to use terror on populations. As for your example of family members covering for someone who has robbed a bank, there exists in that family a culture in which antisocial acts are tolerated for members of that group. The culture of yet another family may be to turn that person in to authorities for committing the same act which the greater culture has deemed outside the bounds of acceptable behavior. No aspect of any of this exists in a vacuum.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)"I don't think rape culture exists,.."
What then is the relevant and objective number of rapes necessary in order for a rape culture to exist? On what is number based on? What is the precise speed of decline or increase in that number to allow either an objective acceptance or denial of the existence of a rape culture?
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)... if the act were supported, rewarded, encouraged and enabled by the community. Absent those factors, it's not a cultural thing.
marions ghost
(19,841 posts)has either been raped by a man or knows someone who has (and knows of more than one in most cases).
Men may not be aware of this.
Response to Skidmore (Original post)
G_j This message was self-deleted by its author.
redqueen
(115,186 posts)This is such an important point.
It is why people have been 'making DU suck' by bringing up these issues.
G_j
(40,569 posts)your response inspired me to look for it,
"Only by becoming sick of sickness can we be without sickness." - Lao Tzu
similar sentiment at least, it's amazing how simple "profound" truth often is. Of course
our culture cannot get well while denying it
is sick.
redqueen
(115,186 posts)I hope more and more people become aware of this particular sickness, so that enough people will get sick enough of it to change it. I think it is starting to gain momentum again, finally. 
freshwest
(53,661 posts)ellisonz
(27,776 posts)I think the biggest part of combating our rape culture is having honest discussions. I think at the forefront of that is hearing from those who have been victims of sexual assault because they are best able to express what such an experience is like and how it alters one's perspective of our society. I truly do wish that we could have a healthier conversation of this topic on DU and in society at large. Rape is unacceptable in all situations and offends me deeply as a person of conscience and morals when I hear of it first-hand and read of it in the media. Rape doesn't just happen, people rape because they make a conscious choice to rape that is rooted in how they view their actions as human entities in a society with significant cultural development.
Hippo_Tron
(25,453 posts)And we won't fully understand that for many many years, if ever. What we do understand is that most people have some degree of control over their impulses. If they're brought up in a culture that teaches that rape is not only illegal but shameful, most will control their impulses and never rape someone. If they're brought up in a culture that teaches that while it's technically illegal, it's not a big deal and you can probably get away with it, they have no incentive to control their impulses.
ellisonz
(27,776 posts)I think it's worse than that - I think to some extent we live in a culture that encourages exploitative sexual behavior if not outright rape. I'm not really knowledgeable enough on the psychological studies of rape to get into how that plays out in terms of decision making. I think of course there are different aspects to "different" types of practice within the larger rape culture.
Some people are of course true sociopaths too...
Hippo_Tron
(25,453 posts)But I think the biggest problem is that most of us, at one point or another, are implicitly tolerant. Implicit tolerance is harder to detect too, because you can think rape is a terrible terrible thing and still be implicitly tolerant. I've probably almost certainly been implicitly tolerant at some point in my life, without ever intending to be.
Gravitycollapse
(8,155 posts)Is probably the surest way to reduce rape and rape culture.
ellisonz
(27,776 posts)DLevine
(1,791 posts)galileoreloaded
(2,571 posts)i believe rape exists in our culture, but special protections for some detract from us all.
of course, i believe in equalist concepts and egalitarian structures. paint me weird.
Gravitycollapse
(8,155 posts)That is a meme right out of the right-wing playbook.
galileoreloaded
(2,571 posts)redqueen
(115,186 posts)
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)homophobia
racism
sexism/misogyny
redqueen
(115,186 posts)I'm not used to seeing it used on DU.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)redqueen
(115,186 posts)
BainsBane
(57,757 posts)The right to be free from sexual assault? The right of a woman to choose who she wants to have sex with? 
Wimenz sure are getting uppity these days.
Gravitycollapse
(8,155 posts)BainsBane
(57,757 posts)Presumably he's referring to women, but it's not like men aren't raped. And I don't know how acknowledging the existence of rape culture confers special protection on anyone. It seems to me this is a case of thinking all we need to do to establish equality is to pretend no discrimination exists.
galileoreloaded
(2,571 posts)BainsBane
(57,757 posts)That doesn't answer the question. Rape is a crime. I don't even know what you think you are saying. Is your contention that because you believe that rape affects only women we shouldn't worry about it? It shouldn't be prosecuted? Rape kits should continue to remain untested and victims should continue to be shamed? Because those are specifically the circumstances that those denouncing rape culture seek to combat.
galileoreloaded
(2,571 posts)any thing i have written here.
your personal agenda is showing.
BainsBane
(57,757 posts)You're damn right I have a personal agenda. I have a right to have a crime against me taken seriously, just like anyone else in the country. So what special preferences? You haven't been able to name a single one.
galileoreloaded
(2,571 posts)and that is a shocking disparity. if we want to talk about disparities, why would this one be over looked?
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)galileoreloaded
(2,571 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)galileoreloaded
(2,571 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)redqueen
(115,186 posts)He called your point idiotic.
I could say more, but I won't.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)redqueen
(115,186 posts)doesn't ring any bells.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)BainsBane
(57,757 posts)Last edited Thu May 9, 2013, 05:13 PM - Edit history (1)
men commit 88% of murders?
galileoreloaded
(2,571 posts)BainsBane
(57,757 posts)No one. You still haven't said what special preferences are involved in identifying rape culture.
BainsBane
(57,757 posts)(which itself is pretty funny) and didn't identify people according to gender. Somehow you're very sensitive to "sexism" against men while denouncing "special preferences," you refuse to name, for rape victims.
sufrommich
(22,871 posts)and not criminal statistics,no matter how much you try to deflect.
galileoreloaded
(2,571 posts)Whisp
(24,096 posts)comprehension, among other things.
BainsBane
(57,757 posts)redqueen
(115,186 posts)BainsBane
(57,757 posts)because you believe it effects women? That's what I said earlier. But you haven't said what special protections you imagine.
Response to BainsBane (Reply #145)
Post removed
Sheldon Cooper
(3,724 posts)your statement stinks to high heaven and you have yet to clarify what you mean, despite repeated requests to do so. Exactly what do you mean?
galileoreloaded
(2,571 posts)Sheldon Cooper
(3,724 posts)MRA?
galileoreloaded
(2,571 posts)its the only starting point.
Sheldon Cooper
(3,724 posts)If you are SO concerned over the number of male murder victims, who are indeed murdered mostly by other MEN, then by all means start a thread about 'male murder culture'. To come into a rape culture thread and whine about men is very telling, and you can disguise it as 'equalist' (whatever the fuck that means) but we can all see what you're doing.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)are fundamentally rooted in biology/evolution.
Might Research Actuaries.
Sheldon Cooper
(3,724 posts)His attempts at derailment are noted:
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Sheldon Cooper
(3,724 posts) galileoreloaded
(2,571 posts)BainsBane
(57,757 posts)Denying difference and discrimination doesn't create equality. Rather it perpetuated inequality.
You do understand rape victims only want assaults against them to be treated with the same degree of attention other crimes are. What could you possibly find objectionable about that?
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)us all". Who is this "us" you speak of - it surely can't be "all' if some are detracting, can it?
Do explain.
galileoreloaded
(2,571 posts)BainsBane
(57,757 posts)There is nothing clear about your point. It appears to me you have decided that because you assume rape applies only to women it's not worth worrying about. Rape is a crime. In civil society, women are overwhelmingly the victims. In prisons, men are the principal victims. The crime itself doesn't specify men over women. The gender bias is on the part of society that attacks women and trivializes the crime. The notion that there is some sort of special preferences in actually prosecuting crimes and treating victims with respect defies any conception of human decency.
galileoreloaded
(2,571 posts)BainsBane
(57,757 posts)Which special preferences?
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)If multiple people are in fact, unclear as to what you mean by "special considerations", then possibly your point is not as clear as you may believe it to be, and could clarified merely by answering the question (rather than merely responding to the question as is your practice in this thread), "precisely what special protections are you referring to?"
However, I will completely understand if you continue to offer non-relevant responses rather than illustrating the courage of your own convictions by stating clearly and precisely what "special considerations" are in this case and in this context.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Has issues with women. Mandatory Rail Accident.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)bettyellen
(47,209 posts)DanTex
(20,709 posts)smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)"special protections"? Explain that please.
galileoreloaded
(2,571 posts)see, i like to view humans as a homogeneous population free of much tangible diversity. i find that beside some cultural cues, our behavior as a species is 95-98% predictable.
i could give a shit if you are a female. I could give a shit if you are male. you are a human being and thus deserve respect.
when you distill complex human issues into gender buzzwords like "rape culture", you attempt to redefine the issue in alignment to your perceived gender bias outcome instead of empirically defining WIN or "whats important now" based on the greatest need.
advocating for a special interest, (ie women or men) robs from the larger discussion in an attempt to assuage whatever biased echo chamber is operating at the time.
i believe in equality and equal protection for all humans, regardless of chromosome.
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)Sorry, I am just not following.
galileoreloaded
(2,571 posts)DanTex
(20,709 posts)You still haven't come close to explaining what "special protections" you are talking about. Educated people are able to express themselves intelligibly. Let's see if you can manage that.
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)of out of high school. You grossly over estimate yourself. I would be surprised if you had made it past the 8th grade.
Squinch
(59,522 posts)you seem to be working very very hard to avoid answering.
Could it be a phrase that you pulled out of your butt?
I think it could.
galileoreloaded
(2,571 posts)Squinch
(59,522 posts)galileoreloaded
(2,571 posts)i am but one individual.
Squinch
(59,522 posts)galileoreloaded
(2,571 posts)Squinch
(59,522 posts)BainsBane
(57,757 posts)Where offenders go unprotected, rape kits untested, and victims shamed.
You ASSUME is applies only to women as victims, but you are wrong.
The only "special interest" is victims above rapists. So what about rapists do you feel needs protecting?
galileoreloaded
(2,571 posts)it just won't. you can keep trying if you like.
on the MERITS of your statement though, offenders, evidence, shamed victims and ANY lack of due diligence re: violent crime is an abomination.
i don't feel the need to promote OR devalue any class of victim though and that is what made up concepts like "rape culture" do and they posit it disingenuously in the self same frame of gender that 2nd wave feminism claims to abhor. if we are equal as i feel we all should be, lets actually make it equal. abandon terms like male and female and treat everyone as people. prosecute offenders nd help victims. don't add to the gender struggle.
we can have discussions or you can take another uncalled for swipe at me like you did above, but the next time you do the discussion stops.
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)You are just a complete idiot. You obviously hate women. so why don't you just butt out of this discussion.
lunatica
(53,410 posts)If we don't speak out then who will?
Skidmore
(37,364 posts)is turning a blind eye.
lunatica
(53,410 posts)Only creates shame and guilt and self-loathing, and fear and self-disgust.
Skidmore
(37,364 posts)a generational legacy. Sometimes people are broken because of it and do not learn how to function beyond the fallout of their experiences.
redqueen
(115,186 posts)Well said.
Response to Skidmore (Original post)
Name removed Message auto-removed
haele
(15,399 posts)Porn or various types of violent erotica has little to do with rape, because a person who has no need to dominate those weaker than him or her can watch/read/experiance porn or various types of erotica without feeling the need to rape. Just as in countries where there is low sociatal stress, violent video games are easily available and cannot be associated with "an increase in violence".
For the most part, the problem is cultural - in cultures where personal life and dignity are casual commodities (i.e., if it can't make money or power for someone, it has no value), rape and other senseless crime that causes injury are common as those with little or no personal power or worth feel the need to take out their frustrations on others.
While true psycopaths are different (and there really is no way of knowing if a psycopath - someone who doesn't feel emotion - intentially wants to causes harm or that harm is a byproduct of them manipulating events to acheive what they think they need to survive), the majority of perpitrators are usually fearful, and don't know or are unable to control their own means of acheiving self-worth. Ultimately, rapists are bullies. They aren't seduced, they aren't "overwhelmed by sexual desire"; they're just bullies who forcibly take and abuse another's body to make themselves feel stronger. There is nothing personal about their victim; they would get as much sexual satisfaction f**ing a mattress.
The actual satisfaction is the fear and confusion, the unwilling submission, they get from their actions.
Haele
Response to haele (Reply #118)
Name removed Message auto-removed
haele
(15,399 posts)I'm old and have unfortunatly run across three (known after the fact because they were arrested) - and maybe more, because I don't know what many people who are seething below the veneer of workplace politeness do after work or behind closed doors.
I just listened to the patterns of thier conversations, and watched the pattern of their actions, and have observed a comminality is a sort of angry dehuminization of others in a weaker than them; not in using sarcasm or "black humor" to cope, or being interested in sex (or porn), or having a serial dating issue, but a real under the surface anger and/or fear that had to do with them and their position of power. Other people just didn't seem to exist in their world, it was all about them.
And in every single case of a caught and convicted rapist, there was never "just one victim". There were always more; it was like hunting to the rapist.
So while nine hundred ninety-nine out of a thousand might not even think about hurting someone else when they've the opportunity, that one who does can easily hurt and negitively affect anywhere from ten to one hundred others before he (or she) gets caught or stopped.
Haele
Lunacee_2013
(529 posts)I've never been raped, but I have been attacked before so I know what that kind of fear feels like. How anyone can't see how rape affects all of us is beyond me. Just look at our military. He'll, just look at our media. There's a commercial for a soft drink out in which a goat basically attacks a woman while everyone else just looks on and talks about how "nasty" the goat is. WTF? I need to find out what company made that commercial so I can avoid buying any of their products.