You know what's NOT a good bath toy for a 5 year-old?

[Robb]

You get three guesses.

HOUSTON (KTRK) -- A seven-year-old boy was shot Tuesday night in northeast Houston, and police say the person who pulled the trigger was his five-year-old brother.

It happened around 9pm on Lyons Avenue near Lockwood and Interstate 10.

Investigators tell us the brothers were in the bathtub when the five-year-old got out and found a .22 rifle. He then shot his seven-year-old brother.

Read More: http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=news/local&id=9094218

No, no gun problem. Nothing to see here. The kids will be fine.

[Nye Bevan]

1. I was going to say "a toaster" but this is even worse (nt)

[Major Nikon]

43. Toasters in the bathtub aren't too bad these days

With things like PVC pipes (no good path to ground), and GFI outlets in the bathroom, I can finally enjoy toast with my morning bath.

[Warpy]

77. Mythbusters did that one years ago

and found that you had to be in direct contact with the drain to get any real shock.

I thought it would be one of those 3 D printed plastic guns, honestly. I did know it was going to be a gun because that's how this country works---gun toting parents not realizing their kids are going to do stupid things.

[baldguy]

2. "It was just a horrible accident."

[99Forever]

3. Same sad story...

.. to be followed by the same sad NRA talking points.

[Dash87]

4. A ___ aged ____ found a ____ caliber gun and shot his ___ y.o. _____.

These news stories are so common these days, they probably have a story template that they put words into.

[Arkansas Granny]

5. Yep. Just full in the blanks.

[BlueStreak]

34. in the ______. The victim is expected to _________.

Paint-by-numbers journalism. Nothing to it.

Notice none of the reporters ever ask any of the important questions, such as:

a) How many years are the parents expected to serve in prison?

b) who sold them this thing? Did they know there were children in the household?

c) Can we find enough gun-free foster homes to give these children a fair chance at life?

[Initech]

46. It's almost as if the media is trying to desensitize us to this.

[Dash87]

63. From the Wayne LaPierre conspiracy files.

He would probably say something like, "Gun deaths are rare, but the media reports every single one, so people think that they're common!" The NRA sheep would eat it up.

[Fix The Stupid]

6. Damn. How many stories like this in the last few weeks?

I don't get it.

What's so different about American culture that these types of 'accidents' are almost a daily occurrence?

Help me understand this...I'm at a loss.

Other society's/country's/cultures have just as many guns, but not the child on child killing we see so much in the US...

Is it years and years of propaganda? John Wayne movies? What the hell is going on?

[jeff47]

13. You don't get it because there's an error in your post

Other society's/country's/cultures have just as many guns

Nope.

The US has more guns per capita than other first-world nations. Other nations that start to approach the US's numer of guns have far more restrictions on those guns, such as how and where they can be stored.

[ieoeja]

21. The last two decades of gun culture is a huge factor as well.

I grew up where and when everyone already had firearms. However, things have changed dramatically.

I now know numerous people who are afraid to step into forests without a gun that we wandered unarmed and alone, even camping overnight by ourselves, when we were kids. It began as an excuse for carrying a gun and morphed into a genuine belief.

I was not allowed to touch firearms until I was 10. And not unsupervised until I was 12. My nephew was playing with guns, even pointing it at people, when he was 6. Everyone thought it was cute.

Loaded guns were not allowed in our house nor in most of my friends' homes. Today, most people I know there always have a loaded firearm in the bedroom "just in case".

If a stranger drove up the driveway, you went out to greet them when I was a kid. Today, a lot of those same people grab a firearm and want to know why you're on their property.

A great disconnect is that these same people brag about living in a place where they don't have to lock their doors. These people do not seem to live in fear at all. Bring up firearms, and they suddenly live in a world surrounded by dangerous people.

When I was growing up firearms were just another tool. And just like very few people carry a hammer with them every day, few people carried a gun. You only saw the gun when they were planning to shoot something. Now, many people with whom I grew up will not step out of their house without a firearm.


Over the past couple of decades guns changed from a tool into a fetish or object of worship. That is the "gun culture" which some pro-RKBA types have tried claiming does not exist.

[BlueStreak]

35. Exactly. This has changed remarkably even since "Bowling with Columbine"

In that movie, Moore points out that our gun ownership wasn't that far out of line with other nations. Since that time, we have had a huge rise in the paranoid/militia mentality types who are buying 5, 10 or 20 guns each.

That is an under-reported part of the story.

[nomorenomore08]

49. Great post. Explains a great deal about what's happened and what's different now.

[Fix The Stupid]

29. Wow. You're not kidding.

A few google searches and I find out its almost double per capita in the US.

I thought us Canadians had more per capita... not even close.

Scary. Thats a shit ton of guns out there.

[Warpy]

78. Gun ownership per capita has gone down

leaving only the incredibly ignorant still clinging to their arsenals and saying stupid things like "I grew up around guns so my kids will be OK."

Uh, no they won't, Cowboy. You need to lock those things up unloaded and keep the ammo locked up in a different place unless you're on the way out the door to shoot something.

[sheshe2]

7. Here we go again, trot out your talking points NRA. nt

[Orrex]

8. If only the seven year old had been armed.

[RC]

60. Yep, the seven year old in the tub, shoulda had his spear gun with him.

[Jennicut]

81. My 7 year old still needs

help tying her shoes, let alone handling a gun. Grade school kids do not know how to handle weapons properly. Why are there such stupid parents so in love with their guns more then their kids?

[PADemD]

9. Where were the parents when all this was happening?

unbelievable!

[BlueStreak]

36. Even more unbelievable is where are they today?

Any answer other than "Prison" is insane.

[ileus]

10. Talking points #1 secure firearms.

Every firearm comes with a lock of some sort. Free locks can be obtained from various sources...

[Robb]

12. Free trigger locks are worth every penny.

Once upon a time, I couldn't find a key. A kid on YouTube showed me how to pop the lock with channel lock pliers, took two seconds. I could even "lock" it after, with no apparent damage.

[krispos42]

17. Taurus builds a disabling locking mechanism into every gun they make now

Or at least the handguns. Twist a key, the handgun is disabled.


I don't think it's a traditional keyed cylinder lock; it looks more like a security Torx wrench that goes into a recess to twist the mechanism. But if you don't have the wrench, the gun won't work.


And security Torx is uncommon, and tiny ones even more so.

[billh58]

20. Thanks for the feature

vomit about gunz. Too little, too late don't you think? What about the 300 million gunz out there right now that no one knows diddly about? Where are they? Who owns them? Are they secured? Have they been used in a crime? Are they privately being sold to criminals, or to drunks and wife beaters?

Oh, that's right -- we're not allowed to know those things because the Second Amendment protects that kind of information from being collected. If tracking data were in a central database, the mean old Liberal Democrats would come and take away our gunz.

The obvious answer to the gun violence health hazard in the USA is to publish more twisted statistics about how gunz are safer than ever, and how if everyone were armed, crime would drop to zero. That'll do the trick, and the gunz manufacturers and the NRA will make more profits than ever, and then they can help to elect more Republicans -- and the cycle continues. An armed society is a polite, but paranoid, society.

And then pretty soon, every school child will know the difference between a clip, and a magazine, and that will increase our collective IQs and productivity. Yay for gunz...

[Iggo]

11. Got it in one.

[treestar]

14. good grief if these people have a precious right to bear arms and have them

Can they at least respect them as the dangerous things they are?

[mountain grammy]

15. Well the kids were in the bathtub which hold water like a swimming pool..

So, really, the child could have drowned! Really, no reallly?

[krispos42]

16. Question:

Are such accidents up this week, or it is a case of simply more publicity of the norm?

[billh58]

19. There's the NRA

Last edited Wed May 8, 2013, 12:32 PM - Edit history (1)

with its hand up your back again: The damned Liberal grabbers are making a mountain out of a molehill, and 5 year-olds shooting each other is "the norm."

Children shooting each other is a small price to pay for your Second Amendment freedom to advocate and enable the proliferation of, and easy access to, guns in this country -- right?

[krispos42]

23. So it's not a valid question?

We should just assume the latest corporate-media frenzy is the norm?

[LanternWaste]

26. Is there a specific and objective number of reports that reduces reporting news to "corporate-media

What specifically leads you to the premise that the news reports dealing with children killed by firearms is indeed and in fact a "corporate-media frenzy"?

Is there a specific and objective number of reports that reduces reporting news to "corporate-media frenzy"? What is that number ad what is it based on?

Or is there another objective and specific measure against which it is weighed to determine the viability of broadcasts?


Or (and I find this much more likely), is the reporting of someone's sacred cow the only necessary mechanism for it to be considered a "corporate-media frenzy" by that someone?

[krispos42]

52. My premise...

...is that in the age of social media re-posting, there are many topics that become flash-in-the-pan items of discussion, concern, etc. The system that lets a fringe RW theory of objective, demonstrable, stupidity move up the food chain from a blog to Breitbart to Drudge to talk radio to Faux News to "what everybody knows" can, in a similar fashion, move other stories around out of proportion to their inherent newsworthiness.

So, there have been X documented cases this week of very young children being accidentally killed by other very young children, using guns, that is directly tied to irresponsible parenting.

Okay, fine.


How does that compare to a random week last month? Last quarter? Last year?

I don't know. Why don't we find out?


If the last week was a particularly bad week, is it the start of a trend, or it is just a statistical "burp"?


And this is why I question the media's ability to report this kind of information:

[div class=excerpt style=background:#AFEEEE]Gun crime has plunged, but Americans think it's up, says study
By Emily Alpert This post has been corrected, as indicated below.
May 7, 2013, 12:46 p.m.

Gun crime has plunged in the United States since its peak in the middle of the 1990s, including gun killings, assaults, robberies and other crimes, two new studies of government data show.

Yet few Americans are aware of the dramatic drop, and more than half believe gun crime has risen, according to a newly released survey by the Pew Research Center.

<snip>

Despite the remarkable drop in gun crime, only 12% of Americans surveyed said gun crime had declined compared with two decades ago, according to Pew, which surveyed more than 900 adults this spring. Twenty-six percent said it had stayed the same, and 56% thought it had increased.

It’s unclear whether media coverage is driving the misconception that such violence is up. The mass shootings in Newtown, Conn., and Aurora, Colo., were among the news stories most closely watched by Americans last year, Pew found. Crime has also been a growing focus for national newscasts and morning network shows in the past five years but has become less common on local television news.

<more>

http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-gun-crimes-pew-report-20130507,0,3022693.story


But, obviously, I should not question the corporate media when they report on guns. Everything else they get wrong and are biased about, except guns.

[abelenkpe]

56. Media are reporting

More of these stories. Gun crime may be down but gun deaths are not. They are estimated to pass car deaths in the very near future. The increase in reporting is an attempt to shame the gun apologists who refuse to consider any reform or regulations to curb the unnecessary deaths due to increased gun ownership. Kids are killed and injured almost every fucking day in this country in gun accidents and incidents. Its way past time we pay attention to these stories and do something to reduce these tragic deaths.

Edited to add: this story won't be filed under gun crime. It isn't a crime to be an irresponsible gun owner, even when someone dies from irresponsible gun ownership.

[krispos42]

59. Then it's media reporting that's changed, yes?

Gun deaths (which include suicide) are holding fairly steady. Plotted per-capita, it would be trending downwards, I would think.

[abelenkpe]

61. Gun deaths are holding steady

Ya hoo! Well then fuck this perceived increased attention right? Let's do nothing! Who cares about innocent kids dying from the actions of these responsible gun owners.


Librul media conspiracy Y'know

[krispos42]

62. Or, we can ban pistol grips from rifles

That will really bend that line downward, right?

[ieoeja]

79. That graph you just posted shows that is exactly what happened.

1993 - Assault Weapons Ban
1994 through 1999 - gun crimes plumetted
2000+ slight increase in gun crimes

Using the graph you just posted, this was probably not the time you wanted to make that statement.


I seriously doubt the assault weapons ban was responsible for such a massive drop in overall crime during that particular period. The machine gun ban was certainly a factor in putting an end to the Al Capone era. But we are not currently in such a high crime era.

No, the assault weapons ban would be aimed at cutting down on the number of mass killings. You have to assume that for every mass killer there are many more who wanted to, but did not actually do it. An assault weapon makes it so much easier and tempting for such people. Would the guys in Colorado and Newtown have gone on a killing spree if they hadn't had the easy to use, high speed killing machines at their disposal? Maybe. Maybe not. One thing we can be absolutely certain about: some such wannabe killers would not.

[krispos42]

83. I had an interesting conversation with my neighbor about this.

"assault weapons", rather.


She did not know what the definition was, what the legal definition was. When I told her, she was a bit slack-jawed.

The weapon used in Newtown was not an "assault weapon". It was bought in 2010, new, from a gun dealer. Connecticut has had an AWB in effect, either from Federal or State laws, since 1994. So, ergo, the rifle bought by Fuckwad's mother was not an "assault weapon".

Now, the new ban proposed by Feinstein would have made such a rifle an "assault weapon".

Incidently, the ease with which the definition of "assault weapon" changes and expands also concerns people. But besides that...


Semiautomatic rifles that feed from detachable magazines would still be legal to buy and sell, new and used, under Feinstein's proposed legislation. They would not have protruding pistol grips, or bayonet mounts, or folding/telescoping stocks, but I could legally purchase a Ruger Mini-14 semiautomatic rifle that shoots the exact same .223 ammunition an AR-15 shoots. But because it doesn't have a protruding pistol grip, it's not an "assault weapon".


There are hard truths we have to face.

1) The sharp drop in crime in the '90s (it stared in about 1991, 3 years before the AWB, the magazine-capacity limit, the waiting periods, and the background checks took effect) was due to things that happened 20 years before, namely the removal of lead additives from gasoline, and the universal availability of birth control and abortion services.

2) Any gun that is optimized for self-defense is also optimized for offense as well. It is impossible to say "it's okay to have a gun designed for self defense but we don't want an gun that can be used to assaults"; they are effectively one and the same.

This is why countries such as Australia and Canada and England make you have a reason for purchasing a gun, and "self defense" is not considered a valid reason.




I don't know how to deal with the phenomena of mass shootings; the capability for them to occur has been with us for about a hundred fifty years, only growing with every passing year.

I do know that I did an analysis of mass shootings based on info from 1976 to 2005, and the trend line for 4-victim and 5+ victim homicides was trending downwards on a per-capita basis. I have a chart that I made.




So, what's the difference?

Maybe the incidents of really big mass shootings have gone up... Virginia Tech was over 30 people, Newtown was 26, Columbine was 13.

Or maybe due to the nature of the modern internet and news/blog/social networking/Twitter sites, it just seems like there are more.

[billh58]

27. Nice try, but

deflection is not your strong suit. Like most NRA apologists, however, you excel at being willfully obtuse.

[krispos42]

53. See my reply #52.

Not that it matters with you, I think... you've already pigeonholed me and insulted me.


Doesn't it feel good to have peer approval to launch personal attacks on other DUers?

[billh58]

70. That's rich

coming from the head Gungeoneer...

[jmg257]

31. Maybe they are simply highlighting such events more then they have in the past?

So we are now more familiar with just how often it happens?

Anyway - seems much better to accept forms of media coverage as "the norm" instead of kids shooting each other.

It may be valid to ask, but it is quite sad a question - stating that kids killing kids is normal.
Maybe we have been too willing to just selfishly accept that shit happens, and such shit isn't very unimportant. Especially when something could be done about it.

[krispos42]

54. That's my point

Is it being reported more because of the media's common use of retweets and Facebook links used to drive stories? How about Google News alerts?

Cricket rifles and kids shooting kids becomes a hot topic, people set their Google alerts, then they retweet and repost on Facebook, then it shows up on the "Trending Now" or "Most Popular" section of a news site, generating more clicks and attention...


It becomes self-reinforcing.



I don't know. I do know that in a nation of many hundreds of millions of people a year, there will be a certain predicable number of events happening, and that includes very young kids getting killed by other very young kids that find loaded guns.

It's thankfully not a very large number, but it's there. It's been going down over the decades, but statistically, it will still happen on a regular and predicable basis. If you knew the number from 2012, you could probably predict that 2013 will be the exact same number, and the odds of 2013 being within ±10% of 2012 would be pretty high, I think.

[billh58]

68. You've just spouted

the NRA's basic "fuck 'em all" line: "it's thankfully not a very large number (of deaths)." That really depends on your perspective doesn't it? To some of us, ANY preventable death is one too many, but to you NRA-apologists "a certain predictable number of events (deaths)" are to be expected in order to preserve your precious right to "keep and bear."

You people not only demand the right to stockpile lethal weapons, and sell them to anyone you choose, but you also demand the "right" to do so in complete secrecy with absolutely no oversight or regulation. How very Libertarian of you. A few thousand preventable deaths and injuries every year in this "first world" country is totally acceptable in order to preserve your right to have an orgasm every time you pull the trigger. Does that about sum it up?

Yeah, the media is just making this shit up about people dying, and your NRA statistics "prove" that more guns equal less deaths and injuries, and even less crime. If only everyone were armed there would be no deaths, injuries, and the crime rate would be zero. Except of course, those 40% of criminals who get their guns from "friends and family," you know -- you responsible gun owners who don't want anyone to know that you have a gun.

[krispos42]

82. "You people"

Man, you don't want to discuss, you want to yell and feel righteous, don't you?


Well, I'll tell you what, when you get behind banning private swimming pools (including wading pools) because it is unacceptable that a certain, predicable number of children a year will drown in them just in order for "you people" to splash around in some water.

You want to get wet, jump in the shower. But don't actually jump... step carefully in and out of the tub.

And it's obvious that you have little clue as to what my personal beliefs are. You've found out that I'm not entirely on your side, so OBVIOUSLY I'm a closeted NRA troll.

That's been here 7 years, spent 2 years as a moderator, and has 45k posts.

You care so little about my opinions you don't even bother to ask me what they are. Instead, you're rude enough to TELL me what they are, based solely on your own prejudices.

In other words, YOU'RE MAKING UP SHIT ABOUT WHAT I THINK.

Maybe you need to spend some time in Gun Control Reform Activism, the echo-chamber where your opinions will be endlessly validated, because they certainly don't hold up outside of there.

You've done ZERO research on what my opinion is, and you have the stones to come in here and YELL them to me?

You know nothing, and you prove it with every post you make at me.

Go do some research; we will all benefit from you opening your eyes and closing your mouth.

[billh58]

84. Spoken like the

true Head Master of the Gungeoneers. I've followed you and your "cold dead hands" followers for years, and yes I do know something about your obnoxious opinions. And, fwiw I AM subscribed to the GCRA Group, and I put your RKBA Group on ignore months ago because the voice of reason did not stand a chance in that sewer.

I don't have to make shit up about you and your Gungeoneer buddies, because you people express your right-wing, Libertarian views very loudly, and very plainly. The sad thing is, you actually believe that you are somehow more American, more righteous, and more Progressive than anyone else on DU.

News flash: you are not even close to being Progressive, except in your own NRA-influenced fantasies.

Bub bye, and be sure to kiss your gun before you put it under your pillow tonight...

[The Straight Story]

30. Kids shooting each other is a supervision problem

Just like any other item in a household kids should not be getting into.

I wouldn't leave a nail gun laying around or anything else dangerous unless I was there with the items to supervise them.

If a parent left the car running and went out to cut the grass and a kid hopped in backed over his brother would people be blaming the number of cars around? Nope.

Anti-choice people can't bring themselves to hold humans accountable for such things unless they are people who had nothing to do with it - i.e., those who own guns and are responsible are the ones stories like these are aimed at demonizing while the people who were irresponsible aren't even mentioned. Just the tools.

Funny how that works. Outraged at the many for what the few have done.

Gun lovers have their 'gun porn' and apparently gun haters have theirs as well.

[billh58]

32. There's that NRA

bullshit about a gun just being another "tool." What you choose to call "anti-choice people" (nice touch btw), realize that a gun is a lethal weapon designed for one purpose only: to kill. Cars and lawn mowers not so much. We are not "anti-choice" -- we are anti-NRA, and their insane opposition to ANY form of gun regulation.

Now run on back to the Gungeon and brag to your NRA-apologist buddies about how you really told us mean old "grabber" Democrats a thing or two.

[The Straight Story]

33. So basically you are saying

Parents get a pass when something does not fit your definition of 'tool'.

I don't care what label something has. Gasoline is a tool. If some leaves it laying around inside the house they are to blame (and gas has only one use, to burn/explode).

Back before America had big stores many families hunted for food, guns helped and to them were a tool. But wrapped yourself up in telling yourself the gun has magical powers and made these things happen and not negligence on the part of the people involved.

In nature, sex has only one intended purpose, to pro-create. Should we do away with abortion, porn, etc and so on - or it is just possible we as humans can have more than one purpose for things (like skeet shooting, etc).

And I don't hang out in the gungeon. Don't own a gun, don't really care about which ones people are using today or how they reloaded what.

I do care about consistency across the spectrum though - and people really hate it when their own principles they say they believe are used in other places (your body, your choice being a big one that few actually believe in).

In the case of kids getting guns at home and doing things like this, it is not the gun that is the problem and I am sure there are laws already made that will handle this - but we want more laws and more control based on what less than 0.1% do.

[billh58]

42. Typical NRA rebuttal

by twisting words to fit your meaning. Guns are NOT regulated as stringently as even household cleaning materials, or gasoline. At least these "tools" are required to have warnings on them.

The other "tools" that you and the NRA Gungeoneers always bring up to justify the deaths caused by guns are not specifically designed and manufactured for the sole purpose of killing living things. Much more than tools, guns are lethal weapons, and a definite health hazard in this country. That health hazard could be addressed, but you and your NRA apologist buddies will not allow it -- for now.

There is coming a time in the not-too-distant future that you and your NRA idols will no longer be able to buy enough politicians to continue to inflict this obscene proliferation of deadly weaponry on the rest of the population. Contrary to your, and your NRA apologist buddies assertions, the Second Amendment does NOT prohibit the strict regulation of firearms.

And you and I agree on one thing: guns by themselves are not the problem -- the NRA and its ability to buy enough politicians to look the other way while it and its manufacturer donors pollute this country with unregulated, untraceable, and unaccountable gunz are the problem. You gun worshiping apologists are the problem.

Buh bye Bubba...

[The Straight Story]

45. Oh nice....

NRA Idols and such...yeah, I don't like the NRA and never have and never will.

You mention 'gun worshiping apologists' as well.

"There is coming a time in the not-too-distant future that you and your NRA idols will no longer be able to buy enough politicians "

ME and NRA Idols? Really? How is any of this addressing the issues I discussed. OHHHHH wait - you just want to call people names and refer to the NRA to deflect from the discussions.

I don't worship guns. Don't own one. Will be a few years probably before I do buy one.

And yes - we agree. Guns are not the problem. SOME people, a very very very tiny few who have them are a problem. And we both want those people to not have them and be held accountable.

Difference is - I don't see the need for the many to pay for the 'sins' of the few - from guns to muslims to others.

I am ok with regulations (state background checks, ccw based upon training and licensing, etc). I am NOT ok with branding the many based on the few - anymore than I have ever been in any other area.

My wish - my hope - is that we can have a good dialog on the issues and not be simply people who react to news stories and run around on emotions making laws. Common sense laws that the many can live with.

Most people, over 99% of them, are not the problem. We should not punish the many over the few.

[billh58]

48. "A good dialog?"

Really? Your idea of "a good dialog" appears to be the endless repetition of NRA propaganda and misinformation, while expecting the rest of us to believe that you really do have our best interests at heart. You are an NRA apologist Bubba -- pure and simple.

Keep on spouting your meaningless NRA-manipulated statistics, and you can have a "good dialog" with the DU Gungeoneers who hang on your every word. We "grabbers" will continue to work toward common sense gun regulations, and legislation aimed at greatly reducing the obscene proliferation of easily obtainable, no-questions-asked lethal weapons in this nation.

[The Straight Story]

57. And the idea of such here is

"let's bash every gun owner in the US" and label anyone who does not agree with us NRA Shrills.

We have a ton of laws already in place - which we don't fund. Many of which gun owners are on board with.

You keep wanting to call things NRA talking points or stats - guess that is your way of not wanting to actually address the issues.

I, and you, want some common sense regulations. I also want those in place already that people wanted to be funded before we enact more.

It is against the law to carry concealed weapons without a permit, to carry guns into schools, to shoot people, to use guns in any sort of crime.

You have such laws - and they certainly help as most all gun owners obey the laws.

But we don't post about those folks. We focus on those who abuse laws already and hope that somehow making new laws will get them to obey those laws.

Over 99% of gun owners obey the laws already.

The less than 1% who don't...won't. No matter what new ones you pass.

But go ahead and keep focusing on the 99% who do and keep telling them they are bad and wondering why they won't vote for a party that tells them they are the problem and we need to punish them.

[Robb]

58. You said you were a big shot on Free Republic. Did they

...like your right-wing libertarian schtick there?

[The Straight Story]

71. Ah, as usual, attack the person and not the post in hopes of 'winning'

Try to deflect from the ideas I presented by trying to smear me in some way.

Nice. Not very progressive either. But I am sure, like laws based on emotions, it makes you feel better.

[Robb]

72. Speaking of deflection, I noticed you didn't answer.

[The Straight Story]

75. Could you, perhaps, and I know this is real hard for you

Explain how that question is even relevant to the discussion?

Because we both know it is not and you and another poster as using my openness to attack my position on things.

That is not only a sign of desperation but I find it truly sad that folks root around my past postings so much.

Maybe some folks should get an actual life. But alas, I am flattered that you care so much about my past and my being honest.

Not sure what the point of my past is now, or why you and others care so much, but I am guessing it is because you want others to not pay attention to what I say and instead want them to just ignore things because I once was a conservative in my life.

Another fine progressive value - people change, but let's not believe or accept that. Let's attack them instead.

Yeah. Liberals. Finding them less and less here.

[Robb]

80. The Klan's "Southern BBQ Recipes" book doubtless had a few gems in it.

However I don't think anyone wants to send money or attention in their direction, despite their skill in sauces.

The messenger matters. It informs the messaging -- in your case, right-wing libertarian messaging. Ignoring this is like defending a right-wing asshole who brings up Chappaquiddick every time a Kennedy is mentioned -- no one denies it happened, but it's a real dick move to bring it up constantly. And doing so, the truth of the thing notwithstanding, demonstrates quite clearly that a person is a right-wing asshole.

So again: when you were a self-proclaimed big shot on Free Republic, did they like your right-wing libertarian schtick?

I'll tell you, I don't care much for it.

[billh58]

69. These "99%" of gun

owners who are exemplary citizens and totally law abiding exist where? What's that you say? Oh, they're in the NRA "statistics" locked room of gun misinformation and fantasies along with the notion that more gunz equals less gun violence.

Does this imaginary 99% include those who leave their guns in the rack above the rear window of their pick 'em up truck? Does the number include those who sell lethal weapons (all perfectly legal you understand) to crazy Uncle Billy Bob, or to cousin Joe Sixpack because he found out that his wife was banging the neighbor? Does this 99% include those "responsible" gun owners who sell dangerous firearms to perfect strangers over the Internet? Yep, these people are all "law abiding," but extremely deadly to the third parties who are the victims of their acts.

I will give you that most American gun owners are responsible with their guns, but that number is no where near 99%. It is those who are NOT responsible that we "grabbers" want to target, and not the responsible American gun owners. Laws seldom affect the law-abiding, but you and the NRA keep dancing around that inconvenient truth.

You, and the rest of your NRA-apologist friends, are using a straw man argument that gun control advocates are targeting ALL American gun owners. That is a lie which is being used by the NRA and the gun manufacturers as a marketing ploy in able to sell more guns -- and you are helping them spread this bullshit. "They're coming for our gunz!" Vote no! Buy more ammo!

But you go ahead and keep telling yourself and your Gungeoneer buddies that your Libertarian stance of more guns equals less crime and a safer society is a "statistical fact." Keep spreading the disinformation that the cure for the health menace caused by the proliferation of guns is even more guns. You keep spewing NRA propaganda in order to assist the Koch Brothers sell more guns, and spread right-wing anti-American ideology.

At least 50% of your imaginary 99% agree with we Democrats and Progressives that uniform and sensible gun regulation is way past due. Your side is losing the "statistical" war Bubba, and the American people are beginning to say: enough!

Now it's time for you to quote some more NRA bullshit, and pretend that you are speaking in the "best interests" of all of us. That's a typical right-wing smoke and mirrors tactic, and it's old and tired.

[The Straight Story]

73. So you call me 'bubba'?

Those 99% are not NRA stats. Check out the FBI crime stats, divide the number of crimes done with guns by the number of gun owners.

You keep throwing out 'NRA' and associating me with them like it is some sort of logical argument in your mind. Ohhhh....I get it. Don't agree with something or someone call them names and *poof* you win the internets.

Don't own a gun. Hate the NRA.

I do however have principles and values and I can read and figure out stats all by myself.

And I too want sensible regulation. It's that sensible part where people don't always agree - and on here when they don't they get called nra shrills, gun lovers, etc - instead of people actually, ya know like adults, discussing the ins and outs and hows and whys of laws and ideals.

[billh58]

74. When you use

NRA talking points, NRA illogic, and NRA false equivalency "statistics," what other orgainzation would we associate you with? Your Libertarian arguments almost exactly parallel the NRA "arguments," and yet you have the audacity to deny it.

Keep digging dude, and pretty soon you'll out yourself...

[The Straight Story]

76. Here's an idea for you (and I know it's hard for you)

How about you address the things I say?

Go ahead, label them, laugh, etc - maybe because that is all you are able to do.

Which only makes me feel like I was correct in the first place.

And I will 'out myself'? You mean as someone who believes in your body, your choice, gay marriage is a right, guns are not the boogeyman people make them out to be, drone strikes on innocents are wrong but we do them and people like you don't even care or comment about such things (oh...that's right, you only care when white kids in america shoot each other. When we as a nation kill them brown kids over 'there' you don't even bother to worry about it).

Yeah. I have outed myself as a progressive who actually applies his principles to things other than a few select items. And some people don't like it when their own principles are applied elsewhere so they go around throwing out phrases like 'talking points' because...well...that is all they got.

[billh58]

85. When all you spout

are direct quotes from the NRA, those are the things that I address. You have already "outed" yourself as a right-wing Libertarian attempting to convince people that you have "seen the light." I don't buy it, and neither do many other Democrats on DU.

See ya...

[CTyankee]

44. Ah, and another of their favorite terms, "that pesky Second Amendment."

Pesky? Naw, I would call it PERNICIOUS.

[MattBaggins]

18. NRA TP number one. This childs death is statistically insignificant.

Accidents happen. People die.

More kids die choking on marshmallows so this death is all that important.

A number of posters have started such ops in the last few days. Very sickening.

[Warren Stupidity]

66. And "media frenzy" and "child supervision problem".

Both uttered up thread. Anything but the gunz.

[stevenleser]

22. Kids mean nothing to gun enthusiasts compared to their precious guns.

These are all more than acceptable incidents.

[apples and oranges]

24. Are these parents not watching the news?!

You'd think people would clean up their act based on the tragedies that keep occuring. But apparently that's not the case. I really don't get it.

[laundry_queen]

50. People generally have an 'it can't happen to me' attitude.

As a parent of 4 kids, I cannot tell you the amount of times one of my kid's friends are allowed to do monumentally stupid things because their parents say things like "*my* kid knows better" or "I did that at her age and I'm fine". I know kids in this town who have died from various accidents because of stupid things their parents allowed to happen and still, people say shit like, "they gotta learn some time, sooner is better than later!" Or even worse, they make excuses about why the parents of the deceased child are so dumb and how such an accident could NEVER happen to THEM or their 'above average' child. People absolutely love to live in denial. I think there is a large amount of selfishness with these kinds of parents - they don't want to go out of their way for their kids, they are unwilling to change their own lifestyles to make their home a safe place for their kids, so they make excuses about why it's GOOD their kids do these things. It's really insane. Parents that you think are GREAT parents and awesome people sometimes do really stupid things and justify it in their own minds because it's too much work for them to put time and effort into changing for their children.

[0rganism]

25. so a five year old just gets out of the tub and "finds" a loaded .22 rifle?

Methinks this is some extremely poor parenting, no matter how you slice it.

[Deep13]

28. Yup, that was my guess. nt

[Robb]

37. Was it because I mentioned "5 year old"?

It seems to be the age lately, is why I ask.

[Deep13]

38. Yup.

[Demo_Chris]

39. I know this one!! PIRAHNA! nt

[11 Bravo]

40. I think a fucking toaster oven would have made a dandy bath toy for a 5 year old Dick Cheney.

One without a working plug, of course. I would never advocate for that miserable fuckwad to have missed out on his chance to grow up and bring death and misery to untold millions of people.

[Blue_Tires]

41. +1

[Initech]

47. You know what they say: good people die young and assholes live forever.

And in Dick Cheney's case - he's Darth Vader.

[kestrel91316]

55. Why the hell wasn't the 7 yo properly armed???

[Apophis]

64. What's sad is gun was the first thing I thought of.

[bluedigger]

65. We could stop this with mandatory gun safety training in pre-school.

It's really the only solution.

[In_The_Wind]

67. Ha!