Cleveland kidnapping: The women were kept bound with chains and ropes

[cali]

As authorities prepare charges against three brothers suspected of keeping three women captive for nearly a decade, police said they found chains and ropes used to bind the victims inside the Cleveland house where they were held.

Some details about the women's ordeal began to emerge as euphoria over their rescue on Monday evening gave way to questions of how their imprisonment inside a house on a residential street in Cleveland, Ohio went undetected for so long.

Several neighbors said they had called police to report suspicious activity at the house in a dilapidated neighborhood on Cleveland's West Side, where Amanda Berry, Gina DeJesus, Michelle Knight and Berry's 6-year-old daughter escaped from their captors.

<snip>

"We have confirmation that they were bound, and there (were) chains and ropes in the home," he said.

<snip>

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi-cleveland-kidnappings-20130508,0,1021071.story

[uppityperson]

8. Welcome to DU but how do we know this is for real, the money will get to him?

[ellisonz]

43. Charles Ramsey has said he doesn't want money.

If people are looking for some way to give, I suggest donating to the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children at this point: https://secure.missingkids.com/Donate/Online

[uppityperson]

46. Excellent advice and indeed, he doesn't want money. Give directly to an established place

hey, hi, how's it going?

[ellisonz]

47. Excellent.

Also, they're setting up a fund to give to the victims - the Cleveland Courage Fund. I'll post a link when it's available.

[uppityperson]

54. Thanks for the info, and good job with the removal. Could be real but........

[pinto]

48. +1

[monmouth3]

2. This is certainly going to deflate the "blame the victims" (they could have left but didn't) people.

[boston bean]

3. Tell me persons here weren't saying that! PLEASE! nt

[monmouth3]

4. I saw an OP here yesterday questioning why these women "did not leave when they could have."...n/t

[Posteritatis]

75. Ugh. Victims have a hard enough time with that when they *aren't* physically restrained.

That OP's a slap in the face of any abuse victim out there, and god knows they've had too much of that to begin with.

[kestrel91316]

41. Right here on DU. "Why didn't they try to escape?" or "Why didn't they just leave?" or

some such crap.

[ismnotwasm]

60. They're implying it right here in this thread

Doesn't take long for them to come out.

[Posteritatis]

74. There are always, ALWAYS, people who go right there when these stories break.

DU's not nearly as hot at avoiding that as people often like to think it is, and that tendency people have in big lurid stories where everyone becomes an expert in What Was Really Going On usually makes it uglier.

[liberalmuse]

77. We forget that some people are armchair Ninjas.

They can dodge bullets, take out the perp with a single shot and escape kidnappers quite easily. They do not understand that not all of us possess their special powers. The internets have many armchair Ninjas. Real life? Not so much...

[Laura PourMeADrink]

5. I in know way intend to blame the victims, as you say. But, I am definitely curious since

when she freed herself she sounded very much like someone totally aware of her situation (kidnapped and trying to get free) and not someone brainwashed into total slavery..if that makes sense. Like is this the second time only that there was an opportunity to be unchained or unguarded enough to get help/awareness to be free. If yes, that's quite an accomplishment on the part of the captors to keep them unseen and unheard.

[OKNancy]

6. one of the talking heads on MSNBC

some sort of expert said that she probably rehearsed over and over in her mind what she would say if given a chance.

[siligut]

24. Yes, she had probably been told by her captors that there was no help

That no one would believe her, that no one cared. So when she finally decided to try, she had retained hope and she had her daughter to take care of, it bolstered her will to free herself. It also seems that Amanda had been loved and valued before her kidnapping, so the mind manipulation of her captors wasn't as effective.

But she had to pull out all the stops to get that help, and that is what you are hearing in the 911 call. And the 911 operator is being rather perfunctory if you listen closely, though I understand that having worked in emergency situations.

[treestar]

7. Yes, I can see how it took three people

if the brothers helped him. They must have almost never left them alone. So this one occasion was rare enough that they did.

[LisaL]

10. His brothers were not living with him. And up until several months ago, he had a job.

So that doesn't jive.

[treestar]

11. They still must have helped

Or are alleged to have.

He tied up three women and left them alone every day for upwards of ten years. And then went about his business as if all was normal. What a guy.

[LisaL]

65. It appears only Ariel Castro is being charged.

So not clear or even alleged that brothers knew about it or helped. At least at this time.

[LisaL]

67. Not even alleged to have.

Police said today the brothers were not involved.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

12. No it doesn't. If they were literally chained up for 10 years you would think they would sound

like living zombies and not like Amanda did on the phone call. Yikes, and how did she go thru pregnancy and child birth.

[LisaL]

14. I agree. I don't think they were literally chained up for the whole 10 years.

Sounds like it was more psychological, that they were scared into submission.

[siligut]

25. Yes, this is what I believe

Who knows if it will come out in the media, but I am sure that mind manipulation was used to keep these women obedient.

[MattBaggins]

37. Most likely used the girls connections to control them

They would have developed some form of sisterhood over time that they most likely played against them. Threatened to harm the others if one of them tried to escape.

[truegrit44]

86. I just heard that one method he used to keep them

from leaving was.........he would pretend to leave, but hide and watch and if he saw any of them trying to leave he would rush back in and beat the shit out of her. Did that numerous times so after awhile they could never trust that he was really gone.

[jeff47]

30. There's one thing I can guarentee about such situations

Is that statements with the phrase "you would think" are almost always wrong.

[kestrel91316]

42. Don't you DARE go blaming those women in any way for their situation.

You should hang your head in shame.

Their captivity was 100% the fault of their captors. PERIOD.

[get the red out]

56. Thank you

Anyone who blames these women should hope they never suffer captivity and have to find out personally how psychological horrors can be inflicted.

[LisaL]

63. I don't need any lectures from you.

And discussing details of the case does not equal blaming the victims. I don't blame the victims.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

69. Geez - it's amazing how people jump for just discussing the situation. Thiought it went without

any explanation that 99.9% of DUers understand and fully sympathize completely with a battered women's situation.guess not

[LisaL]

71. Exactly.

Stating the simple fact that the suspect had a job until recently and was not at home all the time does not in any way suggest blaiming the victims.
I don't blame the victims one bit.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

76. of course you don't ! no one does. no one ever has blamed them. nt

[CBGLuthier]

90. Jibe, the word is Jibe, not Jive

[magical thyme]

36. if they were kept locked up in the a soundproofed attic or basement

there may well not have been many opportunities.

A 4th woman disappeared early on. On the walls of the basement are the words, "Rest in peace, [name]."

So beatings, torture, overt threats and covert threats would tend to make one very, very careful of planning escape.

Obviously they were very aware of their situation. Aware enough that at least 3 of the women managed to survive it.

Their captors didn't allow anyone in the house. They were on occasion seen, forced to crawl around the back yard naked, wearing dog leashes. The police were called repeatedly and didn't do anything.

[Brickbat]

44. How do you think she should have sounded?

[ibjensen]

9. Deserves Severe Punishment

This is a classic case for the return to an expanded death penalty. These three perverted animals deserve nothing less than to be hanged by the neck until dead. Why warehouse these three until they die of natural causes?

Ten years times three lives had to be an eternity to these young victims.

[treestar]

13. They can't get the death penalty for any of these three cases.

Strangely, but so many of these cases are murders, so it can be said, "at least he didn't kill them." There are at least alive, so his status as sociopathic monster is oddly on a lower scale than others.

[geek tragedy]

16. Ohio includes fetal protection in its murder statutes.

http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2903

[treestar]

17. So what are you getting at?

Did any of them lose a pregnancy?

The odd thing too is who is the father of the 6 year old girl? Likely the perpetrator or one of his brothers.

[geek tragedy]

22. 5 pregnancies, one child born. Frequent beatings.

The math adds up.

[treestar]

50. I would wonder though if Ohio would apply the death penalty

in those cases. Then there are proof problems.

[geek tragedy]

52. Lots of factual details to be sorted out.

I would think victim testimony would be enough evidence.

As far as death penalty is concerned, hard to resist that temptation if you're a prosecutor in a case like this.

[treestar]

92. Some more on that

2929.02 Murder penalties.
(A) Whoever is convicted of or pleads guilty to aggravated murder in violation of section 2903.01 of the Revised Code shall suffer death or be imprisoned for life, as determined pursuant to sections 2929.022, 2929.03, and 2929.04 of the Revised Code, except that no person who raises the matter of age pursuant to section 2929.023 of the Revised Code and who is not found to have been eighteen years of age or older at the time of the commission of the offense shall suffer death. In addition, the offender may be fined an amount fixed by the court, but not more than twenty-five thousand dollars.

2903.01 Aggravated murder.
(A) No person shall purposely, and with prior calculation and design, cause the death of another or the unlawful termination of another's pregnancy.

(B) No person shall purposely cause the death of another or the unlawful termination of another's pregnancy while committing or attempting to commit, or while fleeing immediately after committing or attempting to commit, kidnapping, rape, aggravated arson, arson, aggravated robbery, robbery, aggravated burglary, burglary, trespass in a habitation when a person is present or likely to be present, terrorism, or escape.

(C) No person shall purposely cause the death of another who is under thirteen years of age at the time of the commission of the offense.

(D) No person who is under detention as a result of having been found guilty of or having pleaded guilty to a felony or who breaks that detention shall purposely cause the death of another.

(E) No person shall purposely cause the death of a law enforcement officer whom the offender knows or has reasonable cause to know is a law enforcement officer when either of the following applies:

(1) The victim, at the time of the commission of the offense, is engaged in the victim's duties.

(2) It is the offender's specific purpose to kill a law enforcement officer.

(F) Whoever violates this section is guilty of aggravated murder, and shall be punished as provided in section 2929.02 of the Revised Code.

It would thus have to be under section (B). They would also have to show he was committing or in the process of committing the kidnapping over 10 years - that might not be seen that way.

[geek tragedy]

93. (A) would cover it as well.

(A) is premeditation, (B) includes other associated offenses as aggravating factors

[Rhiannon12866]

94. Thanks for the information!

They were discussing that this could be a death penalty crime on MSNBC this afternoon, but I wasn't sure why, either. I did think they meant because his abuse resulted in numerous miscarriages by one of the victims. Whatever happens, this is a monstrous crime.

[Bandit]

18. I do believe kidnapping is a Capital Offense...

I think it was made so after the Lindberg kidnapping.....

[treestar]

20. I don't think in the US one can be executed for anything less than murder

with aggravated circumstances of some kind in the statute.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_the_United_States

[jeff47]

31. Might wanna read your link

Crimes subject to the death penalty vary by jurisdiction. All jurisdictions that use capital punishment designate the highest grade of murder a capital crime, although most jurisdictions require aggravating circumstances. Treason against the United States, as well as treason against the states of Arkansas, California, Georgia, Louisiana, Mississippi, and Missouri are capital offenses.[45]

Other capital crimes include: the use of a weapon of mass destruction resulting in death, espionage, terrorism, certain violations of the Geneva Conventions that result in the death of one or more persons, and treason at the federal level; aggravated rape in Louisiana, Florida,[46] and Oklahoma; extortionate kidnapping in Oklahoma; aggravated kidnapping in Georgia, Idaho, Kentucky and South Carolina; aircraft hijacking in Alabama; drug trafficking resulting in a person's death in Florida;[47] train wrecking which leads to a person's death, and perjury which leads to a person's death in California.[45][48][49]

Additionally, the Uniform Code of Military Justice allows capital punishment for a list of offenses during wartime including: desertion, mutiny, spying, and misconduct before the enemy. In practice, no one has been executed for a crime other than murder or conspiracy to murder since James Coburn was executed for robbery in Alabama on September 4, 1964.[50]

[treestar]

49. If those states try it they will be stopped

by appeals to the Supreme Court. And "involving death" means there was a murder.

Execution for anything other than causing a death should be left back in 1964 and earlier.

[jeff47]

80. Why would the SCOTUS stop it?

What, exactly, would the basis for blocking it? "Because treestar says so"?

There's nothing requiring the death penalty to only be for some murders. And if you do so, it becomes unusual. Which now means it's against the 8th amendment.

[treestar]

85. The death penalty was illegal for a while

Because the SCOTUS ruled that the statute under which it is imposed could not be vague and had to contain standards. I can't see anything that did not involve death/murder meeting that standard in our society. It's not just that I say so, it's in our history. As you contributed, 1964 was the last time it was done.

My state had a whipping post until some God-awfully advanced year. Some things just go by the wayside. Death for less than another death is one of them.

[jeff47]

91. Your argument is "treestar says so".

I can't see anything that did not involve death/murder meeting that standard in our society.

Except if you ask the death penalty's fans, they'd like to expand its use.

As you contributed, 1964 was the last time it was done.

Laws are still on the books to allow it.

The fact that treason is uncommon doesn't mean it can't result in the death penalty.

[LisaL]

21. No, never heard of a death penalty for kidnapping unless a victim died.

[LiberalFighter]

29. Wasn't there something about the girls getting pregnant?

If any of them came to term and were killed that would up the charges. Of course, they need to find evidence.

[treestar]

51. Yes, see geek tragedy above

There is an Ohio law that might apply.

[Quantess]

23. Welcome to DU! Life in prison, and nothing less.

Myself, I'm against the death penalty as a matter of principle. But there are certain cases, like this one, where I wouldn't bat an eyelash if the perps were put to death.

[blm]

28. Sounds good when said, but, how many victims will be murdered when the punishment

for kidnapping and abuse becomes no different than the punishment for murdering the victim?

[Art_from_Ark]

95. Excellent point

If kidnapping alone carried the same death penalty as murder, then that could reduce a kidnapper's motivation to keep the victim alive

[Brickbat]

15. As these details come out, it's like some people forget that they are cumulative.

It comes out that the captives were held against their will.

Someone's there to say, "I would have fought and got away!"

It comes out that they were tied up all day.

Someone else says, "With all that free time, surely they could have worked on the ropes."

It comes out that they were beaten frequently, hard enough to cause miscarriages.

Some winner figures there has to be a way that three strong, smart young women could have made some kind of plan to defend themselves.

It comes out that they were fed poorly, raped repeatedly, threatened with death.

For some reason, it's difficult for people to imagine all of that happening to someone every day, day after day, on your birthday and Christmas and the third Tuesday of every month. For years. Through adolescence into adulthood.

None of us can imagine it. It bizarre and sick to question why abused women don't escape their partners -- there are psychological reasons why they don't. When people "just ask questions" or "just wonder" about abducted people in situations like this? It's beyond anything I can understand. Some people just know everything, I guess.

[treestar]

19. You're right

The Blame the Victim thing is usually not so much about blaming the victim as the person trying to reassure themselves this Cannot Happen to Me.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

26. I am not loving the categorization "blame the victim". It's really quite natural & non-accusatory

to be immediately curious and think WOW ten years is a very very long time that it's amazing there weren't more opportunities. It's also quite human to think that if it were you it would be hard to imagine not figuring out a way out. But, think a lot of it is because Amanda sounded so normal on the 9-11 call and on the call to her grandma. Like she got kidnapped two days ago. Of course we all know she couldn't possibly be normal anymore - but initially, she sounds like that.

[boston bean]

45. Many live in marriages with their abusers and tell no one for decades.

WTF is so difficult to understand about this? If one can't come to grasp with the concept, it starts coming off as "blame the victim".

sorry, but that's what you are sounding like. It is not natural to wonder all of these freaking things. Not if you can bring yourself to understand batterd wives syndrome.

[treestar]

53. But these are not battered wives

There is a different psychology where you were kidnapped and forced into it than if you choose the guy, turned out to be wrong about him, and hold onto hope he will change.

There could be a Stockholm Syndrome in this case, too.

But the point of these things usually is not so much to blame the victim as to reassure oneself that it "won't happen to me." I'd have gotten out, etc. It's a natural defense mechanism to attempt to believe you have control over your life and random things can't happen - but the person will never really be tested and they could be wrong. They just say it to reassure themselves regarding that mental discomfort.

[boston bean]

55. No, there is much more to it, than staying with someone in hopes they change.

Fear of what they are told by the abuser will happen to them or their children or family, being a big part of it.

[uppityperson]

57. Oh that is wayyyy too simple "hold onto hope he will change" for DV survivors.

It may start that way, but eventually you have lost all your friends, live with a control freak who punishes you for pretty much anything, threatens you and your child(ren) (if any), perhaps others also. You think so little of yourself, who COULD love or even want to help such a wretch as you you stupid ignorant ugly unlovable person you?

It starts slowly and one day you find yourself in hell and refusing help out of fear of further pain (physical and emotional) or because you can't trust anyone or because you are not worth anything.

"if you choose the guy, turned out to be wrong about him, and hold onto hope he will change" is way too simplified for DV issues.

[treestar]

66. This case though is really about people who were actually kidnapped

And people saying they'd have gotten away, etc. It is the same in that others claim it would not have happened to them because they would have controlled their situation, that they are not blaming the victim in intent, just trying to tell themselves it would not happen to them. Or, that's why people blame the victim.

Yet it would be different for someone who married the guy and for someone who was kidnapped by the guy. Similarities may exist, but there's a big difference there, too.

[uppityperson]

82. I agree there are differences, not arguing that. Simply trying to address a point you wrote about DV

Trying to show that DV isn't just "you choose the guy, turned out to be wrong about him, and hold onto hope he will change".

[treestar]

84. I actually meant that sympathetically to avoid blaming them for staying

But I guess it didn't come out clearly.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

68. wow, didn't expect such assholery from you. I would hardly compare a battered wife to a kidnapping

victim. whatever.

[boston bean]

72. You wouldn't? Not one that was afraid to leave. To much of a leap for you to make? nt

[opiate69]

73. Psychological or emotional chains are often even stronger than physical ones

[BainsBane]

78. They only were allowed out of the house twice in two years

They are chained up, locked in separate rooms. Then there is the fact they lived in terror. These sorts of situations are uncommon but not unprecedented. The horror these women live through is indescribable. I find it amazing that they survived at all. That's more than I could do.

[hedgehog]

27. Bingo! And the corallary to this is that calling the criminals animals or worse,

and calling for the death penalty, is partly people reassuring themselves that they are incapable of evil.

[get the red out]

58. They are NOT animals

I would not insult animals by calling these horrible humans animals.

No on the death penalty, that's way too easy.

[magical thyme]

40. you got it.

"It bizarre and sick to question why abused women don't escape their partners -- there are psychological reasons why they don't."

And to the victim, it comes across as blame and a total lack of compassion. Everybody else in the world would have found an escape, what's wrong with you that you didn't.

The simple fact is that when you are forced by circumstances to live with a serial abuser, your first priority is survival. Your second priority is to find a way out, but it must at all costs succeed. So you wait and watch, learn habits, find the weaknesses in the "system," and wait for the right opportunity.

There is huge pressure to succeed on the first try at escape, not only because they will beat you up or kill you if you fail, but, because they will have learned from the experience as well and that opening will be closed off for good.

[Tansy_Gold]

61. And we don't know yet

If in fact they did make earlier attempts that ended in failure.

Plus there are the circumstances that one of the victims was only 14, the other just a day short of 17, so their powers of rational thought were still immature, and their terror magnified proportionately. What "we" might do as adults in similar circumstances can't be compared fairly to what a terrified and terrorized 14-year-old would do.

But I think it speaks to the enormous power of the human spirit that these three women did survive, and that Amanda Berry not only survived and helped her fellow captives escape, but that she -- like Jaycee Dugard -- became a mother and actually raised a child under those circumstances.

Unless a person has experienced something even remotedly similar, they really have no right to say what Amanda or Gina or Michelle "might have" or "should have" or "could have" done. They survived, and now they're free. No one should expect any more.

[JI7]

70. and wasn't one of them 14 when it happened, they are women now

and i think amanda berry was 17 so just before or around the time she is really becoming a woman.

they refer to them as women but they were not really women when they were first kidnapped.

think of all the changes you go through during those ages in your life . you are just starting to experience and see things in a way different from when you were a kid.

[Kelvin Mace]

33. Interesting

They say there is no record of a call in the police database. I wonder if anyone will search the 911 call, which is usually a different database.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

34. "a call" - which are you referring to? the other day? or in the past?

[Kelvin Mace]

38. The neighbors say

they called police to report naked women in dog collars in the backyard of the house. These days when people say they call the police, they usually mean 911. Also, phone records of the neighbors will probably show an 911 call being made, since these calls are tracked and retained by the phone company.

If the police are lying, this will go badly for them.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

39. thanks...hadn't heard that. Only that the police did respond once and no one

answered the door. duh

[tammywammy]

83. According to this article the women only went outside twice and neither

was what the neighbors described.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/05/09/us-usa-missing-ohio-idUSBRE94600620130509

Authorities said the women recalled leaving the house twice, only to go to the garage on the small lot, when they were disguised in wigs and hats.

I am personally going to wait for more information before assuming the police or the neighbors are lying.

[Kelvin Mace]

89. Which is why

I would like to see the 911 records.

[riverwalker]

59. increased activity now at house

initially they said no human remains found. Reporters are now saying a sudden increase in activity, the cadaver dogs are back, FBI evidence recovery teams arrived, people with shovels.

[riverwalker]

62. checking abandoned house 2 doors down

Sara Shookman‏@SaraShookman 22m
Now FBI teams with mag lights going inside 2221 Seymour -- the abandoned house two houses to the west.

Sara Shookman‏@SaraShookman 34m
Shovels and rakes removed from white evidence van. Crews in white evidence suits walking down the driveway.

Sara Shookman‏@SaraShookman 37m
Hard to tell but seem to be in backyard, not inside the house?

[toby jo]

64. The Cleveland Chief of Police was on the news this morning saying that they had no

recorded calls coming in about "that address".

So somebody is off in their recollections.

As for punishments, they'll get what they deserve where they're going. It'll be more sweet than the death penalty.

[baldguy]

79. I wonder how many guns the Castro Bros. had?

They seem to be the type.

[pnwmom]

81. Now the police are saying only one brother was actually involved.

The other two were released with no charges.

[truegrit44]

87. I have a question?

Has anyone heard how Ariel Castro was caught? It seemed he was arrested very quickly and wondering if they found him at the location Amanda thought he was or did they grab him upon returning? I mean if he was coming up the street and saw a zillion cop cars in front of his house it would be a real tip off as to what had happened. Did he try to run or just walk up and say "hey what's going on here?"

Just curious????

[truegrit44]

88. Just answered my own question

can't reply to myself but he was arrested at the McDonalds where he went to get food.