Prosecutor may seek death penalty in Cleveland case; defendant accused of causing miscarriages

[cali]

An Ohio prosecutor said Thursday he may seek the death penalty against Ariel Castro, saying the man accused of raping and imprisoning three women in his home forced them to suffer miscarriages.

Cuyahoga County prosecutor Timothy McGinty said aggravated murder charges could be filed related to pregnancies terminated by force. And Ohio law calls for the death penalty for the “most depraved criminals who commit aggravated murder during the course of a kidnapping,” McGinty said.

Castro, a 52-year-old former school bus driver, is being held on $8 million bail under a suicide watch in jail, where he is charged with rape and kidnapping for allegedly abducting three women and holding them captive in his home for a decade.

McGinty said that Castro would be charged for every single act of sexual violence, assault and other crimes committed against the women, suggesting the charges could number in the hundreds, if not thousands.

<snip>

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/cleveland-man-charged-with-kidnapping-raping-3-women-held-in-home-no-charges-for-2-brothers/2013/05/08/29d901f2-b83f-11e2-b568-6917f6ac6d9d_story.html

[Ilsa]

1. I think the prolonged kidnappings,

Torture, and rapes is enough to warrant the death penalty. I don't see how the miscarriages are murder unless the fetus could survive outside the womb.

[geek tragedy]

3. Ohio has a fetal homicide law that specifically targets this kind of

crime.

[loyalsister]

19. Since the woman is invisible...

it's not part of the legal reasoning to consider whether or not she wanted to carry the pregnancy to term as relevant to the miscarriage.

There is no crime in banning access to safe abortion and effective birth control in the first place- despite the fact that both put her in physical danger.

[LeftofObama]

2. Even though, as a rule, I'm against the death penalty

I won't lose a wink of sleep if he were to get it. This guy is a monster!

[Quantess]

29. Same here!

My sentiments exactly.

[Junkdrawer]

4. 2004: Unborn Victims of Violence Act

The Unborn Victims of Violence Act of 2004 (Public Law 108-212) is a United States law which recognizes a child in utero as a legal victim, if he or she is injured or killed during the commission of any of over 60 listed federal crimes of violence. The law defines "child in utero" as "a member of the species Homo sapiens, at any stage of development, who is carried in the womb".[1]

The law is codified in two sections of the United States Code: Title 18, Chapter 1 (Crimes), §1841 (18 USC 1841) and Title 10, Chapter 22 (Uniform Code of Military Justice) §919a (Article 119a).

The law applies only to certain offenses over which the United States government has jurisdiction, including certain crimes committed on Federal properties, against certain Federal officials and employees, and by members of the military. In addition, it covers certain crimes that are defined by statute as federal offenses wherever they occur, no matter who commits them, such as certain crimes of terrorism.

Because of principles of federalism embodied in the United States Constitution, Federal criminal law does not apply to crimes prosecuted by the individual states. However, 36 states also recognize the fetus or "unborn child" as a crime victim, at least for purposes of homicide or feticide.[2]

The legislation was both hailed and vilified by various legal observers who interpreted the measure as a step toward granting legal personhood to human fetuses, even though the bill explicitly contained a provision excepting abortion, stating that the bill would not "be construed to permit the prosecution" "of any person for conduct relating to an abortion for which the consent of the pregnant woman, or a person authorized by law to act on her behalf", "of any person for any medical treatment of the pregnant woman or her unborn child" or "of any woman with respect to her unborn child."

....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unborn_Victims_of_Violence_Act

[Politicalboi]

5. I not against the DP

As long as they have the EVIDENCE. These women know who their attacker was. There is no question if they got the "right" man. Why should families have to go through appeal after appeal and relive their whole nightmare over again when the person who killed or molested their child is up for appeal. The DP settles all that. And I wish they would execute faster. This guy IS guilty. After being found guilty, he should get his fate within 6 months. Look how long Sharon Tate's mother had to go to parole hearings. Who should have to go through that?

[RebelOne]

22. I am also not against the death penalty and this creep deserves it. n/t

[metalbot]

23. Here's the problem

We don't have different standards for "guilty" and "we're really, really sure he's guilty". At some point you have to draw the line, and you have to do so in a way that you can write a law around it. You'd think it would be easy to make a law that says "If a person locks up women in his house for 10 years, then confesses, and the victims corroborate his confession, then he's really, really guilty." But it's harder than you think. What about a shooter who is identified by 4 witnesses who then confesses to police? What if he confesses without a lawyer? What if the shooter is borderline mentally incompetent? What if they are a few IQ points higher? Where do you draw the line? There's an easy place to draw that line: no death penalty.

Appeals are a necessary part of any death penalty case, and eliminating the death penalty substantially limits the appeal process. Death penalty appeals rarely address the question of "was there evidence enough to convict", but rather address issues related to whether or not the individual had a fair trial, since these are easier to do, and reset the "death clock" for the inmate. If Castro is sentenced to death, there will be multiple appeals unless he waives them, and there are attorneys who will work pro-bono on these because they feel that the death penalty is fundamentally wrong.

Parole hearings are a different issue. When you sentence someone to life without parole, there are no parole hearings.

Killing is always wrong. There are times when it is the least bad option, but that doesn't make it not wrong. I don't see the death penalty as ever being the "least bad option".

[Squinch]

26. +1

[Bucky]

6. I'm thinking any jail stretch over a couple of weeks is probably a death sentence for Castro

He should definitely avoid brooms once he's locked up.

[Politicalboi]

9. He's in protective custody

That's what they do with scum like this. Poor baby, can't have others hurt him. Here in Ca, they house them all together, so they can circle jerk to their crimes. IMO rape should carry the death penalty, especially when it involves a child. If the EVIDENCE is there, meaning DNA, prior convictions of ANY kind involving children. I have no problem with getting rid of monsters like that. Those that molest, keep the circle going.

[MattBaggins]

32. And then there is reality of it

Make DP even for child molesters will give them one more tool to control their victims. Family members will not report other family members if the DP is guaranteed.

[dballance]

7. The Prosecutor is Going to Have a Tough Time w/ Murder Charges, IMHO.

First off, I'd just sentence Castro to life w/o parole if found guilty (I'm assuming there's more than enough evidence to find him guilty though). I'm not in favor of the death penalty. Also, it's widely known we spend at least twice as much on a death row prisoner than on a lifer. Is justice served either way? I think so. Either way the person is effectively deprived of their life, liberty and happiness (he may be happy to be alive but I can't imagine being happy wondering when someone may shiv him in prison). That's just my opinion. Others will certainly disagree with me.

Now, on to the murder charges.

At this point, and this may change rapidly, I'm not aware of any physical evidence that there were fetuses that were aborted by beating the women. That's not to say they might dig up Castro's yard and find the remains. Or get him to disclose where the remains are if they're not on his property. Let me say I fully believe the women about this. But will 12 people on a jury, a year or more from now when it actually comes to trial, after the media hype has settled down, be able to agree beyond a reasonable doubt that those murders took place. And, what's the law in OH? I don't think OH has a personhood law yet. At what point in the pregnancy were they aborted and does it matter under OH law? I don't know. But, again, without the physical evidence of the remains those are all questions a defense lawyer is going to be asking.

At this point in time I'm actually surprised the prosecutor is talking about those fetuses and murder charges without physical evidence. He's obviously closer to the case than me so he may have information I certainly don't. Or he's up for re-election and wants to appear tough and avenging to the voters.

[BainsBane]

10. Perhaps it's a way to get him to plead to life?

[geek tragedy]

11. Ohio does have a fetal homicide law in place, and the women's

testimony alone would be enough to convict. It will be for the rape counts.

[Shrike47]

28. I think that's disputable. Pregnancy that's self-diagnosed by the victim?

I have been a defense attorney and I'd be willing to take on that charge. The prosecutor would have to prove a medical condition beyond a reasonable doubt without expert testimony.

[JimDandy]

31. Doctors can verify whether a woman

has ever been pregnant and how many pregnancies there were, but don't know if they can say when the pregnancies occured.

[MattBaggins]

34. I am sorry but I don't think the women's testimony will be enough.

[geek tragedy]

49. Why not?

If the jury believes them . . .

[MattBaggins]

50. I don't think they will without at least the bodies being found

hopefully they will find the remains.

[MattBaggins]

33. Even with the bodies found

wouldn't manslaughter be a more likely charge?

[dballance]

46. I Don't Know. I'm Not an Attorney and I Don't Know OH Law. /nt

[ellisonz]

8. I'm honestly not against the death penalty in principle...

...I've thought over that long and hard.

My main concerns are with the effective administration of the death penalty - wrongful conviction, length of incarceration, cost etc.

In this case, there is no doubt the defendant is guilty, and I can see no reason to oppose the death penalty if that is what the People of Ohio and the victims wish to occur.

I think our system needs some serious reform, but I don't think Mr. Castro deserves anything less than capital punishment.

[BainsBane]

12. the problem is

it is not fairly administered. The US death penalty system is fundamentally racist.
Castro deserves to never walk free again, but I do not support the death penalty.

[ellisonz]

14. I don't disagree with that.

But I also don't agree that we couldn't reform our judicial system to bring it much closer to fair administration. I'd also favor continuous federal oversight of its application.

I think it should be reserved for the most heinous crimes, including serial rape, and not for relatively simple homicide cases. For example, I don't support it in the Jodi Arias case.

In short, what we've been doing hasn't been working ideally, but I don't see how in this particular case for example it wouldn't be fairly administered.

I understand the moral argument against the state carrying out death sentences, but is life imprisonment that much more moral? In that sense, is any crime so serious as to warrant the actual or practical deprivation of freedom for the duration of natural life for the offender?

These are tough questions and there aren't good answers.

[BainsBane]

21. our prison system is not only immoral

It violates standards of human rights, and has been identified as such by human rights agencies. That, however, doesn't legitimate the death penalty. Rather, it speaks to the barbaric nature of our entire penal system. I see no way to distinguish the death penalty from race. As long as society is racist, justice will reflect that racism. State sanctioned death is the ultimate manifestation of that racism.

I oppose the death penalty for the same reason I oppose torture. It is dangerous to us as a people. Our justice system reflects who WE are as a people. It's not about what the victim deserves. There is nothing Castro doesn't deserve, but what kind of people do we as Americans want to be? We are currently a highly violent society, characterized by high homicide rates, gun proliferation, militarism and continual war, and state-sanctioned death through capital punishment. Those manifestations of violence are interconnected.

I've examined the relationship between slavery and the death penalty in Brazil. They were closely intertwined, and Brazil abolished the death penalty shortly after slavery. I don't have the same detailed knowledge of American law, but I would not be surprised to find a long-standing relationship between slavery, racism, and capital punishment in this country.

[ellisonz]

37. So do we not lock up people for rape and murder?

[BainsBane]

47. no, of course we lock people up

First we stop turning people over to private prisons, stop incarcerating people for non-violent drug offenses, and reform the public prison system.

[JimDandy]

35. No. Not in support of death penalty for rape

even serial rape. Lock em up for life.

[HappyMe]

13. I agree.

He definitely deserves the death penalty. as does that Arias woman.

It will be interesting to see if any of the opinions in this thread
http://sync.democraticunderground.com/10022811378
change in this or the Arias case.

[ellisonz]

15. I'm actually against it in the Arias case.

It's not that there's doubt that she's guilty, it's that I don't think her offense is the most heinous of crimes. I think when the death penalty is handed down so easily it is more subject to abuse by the judicial system. I'd like to see the standard for capital punishment raised and I'd like to see not just questions of aggravation or such considered, but consideration of whether the crime is the most heinous of crimes relative to their occurrence. I think many people want to see capital punishment for Jodi Arias for reasons that are not directly related to the crime she committed (not saying that's your view), but it certainly does appear to be a common thread in the popular views thereof. I think relative to the Arias case, the Castro case is the among the most heinous of crimes.

[HappyMe]

16. Had she just shot that guy,

okay - life in prison, no parole. But she massacred him, which is heinous to me.

[MattBaggins]

36. And that is the biggest problem with DP

You actually used the word heinous.. Can you please quantify that word for us?

[ellisonz]

40. I don't understand what your question is getting at exactly.

What would you like quantified? The number of criminal cases that would merit capital punishment? I've got better things to do right now than pore through such data. If your point is that "heinous" is a relative term, then that's understandable, but we already have such a system, to think that it couldn't be improved upon given that we're not likely to get rid of it anytime soon is flawed in my opinion.

[MattBaggins]

41. Murdering someone should not be based off a word that can not be quantified.

We only kill the people that repulse you?

[ellisonz]

42. But we imprison them for life without parole?

Are you against that too?

BTW - http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/aggravating-factors-capital-punishment-state

Here's Ohio and Arizona (with the applicable sections in both cases bolded):

Ohio-
(1)The defendant knowingly created a grave risk of death for one or more persons in addition to the victim of the offense
(2) The murder was committed for pecuniary gain or pursuant to an agreement that the defendant would receive something of value
(3) The capital offense was committed by a person who is incarcerated, has escaped, is on probation, is in jail, or is under a sentence of imprisonment
(4)The offender in the commission of the offense, purposefully caused the death of another who was under thirteen years of age at the time of the commission of the offense and the defendant committed the offense with prior calculation and design
(5)The offense was the assassination of the president of the United States or person in line of succession to the presidency, or of the governor or lieutenant governor of this state, or of the president-elect or vice president-elect of the United States, or of the governor-elect of this state, or of a candidate for any of the foregoing offices
(6)The murder was committed against a witness in a criminal proceeding to prevent the witness from appearing, or for revenge
(7)The offense was committed while the offender was committing, attempting to commit, or fleeing immediately after committing or attempting to commit terrorism

Arizona-
(1)The defendant has been convicted of another offense in the US for which under Arizona law a sentence of life imprisonment or death was imposable
(2)The defendant has been or was previously convicted of a serious offense, whether preparatory or completed.
(3)In the commission of the offense the defendant knowingly created a grave risk of death to another person or persons in addition to the victim of the offense.
(4)The defendant procured the commission of the offense by payment, or promise of payment, of anything of pecuniary value.
(5)The defendant committed the offense as consideration for the receipt, or in expectation of the receipt, of anything of pecuniary value.
(6)The defendant committed the offense in an especially heinous, cruel or depraved manner.
(7)The defendant committed the offense while: (a) In the custody of or on authorized or unauthorized release from the state department of corrections, a law enforcement agency or a county or city jail. (b) On probation for a felony offense
(8)The defendant has been convicted of one or more other homicides, as defined, which were committed during the commission of the offense
(9)The defendant was an adult at the time the offense was committed or was tried as an adult and the murdered person was under fifteen years of age or was seventy years of age or older
(10)The murdered individual was an on duty peace officer who was killed in the course of performing his official duties and the defendant knew, or should have known, that the victim was a peace officer
(11)The defendant committed the offense with the intent to promote, further or assist the objectives of a criminal street gang or criminal syndicate or to join a criminal street gang or criminal syndicate
(12)The defendant committed the offense to prevent a person’s cooperation with an official law enforcement investigation, to prevent a person’s testimony in a court proceeding, in retaliation for a person’s cooperation with an official law enforcement investigation or in retaliation for a person’s testimony in a court proceeding
(13)The offense was committed in a cold, calculated manner without pretense of moral or legal justification
(14)The defendant used a remote stun gun or an authorized remote stun gun in the commission of the offense
(15)The defendant engaged in terrorism
(16)The defendant committed burglary in the second degree
(17)The defendant was an adult and the murdered person was an unborn child in the womb at any stage of its development

Guess who ultimately makes such a determination in most cases? A judge or a jury! The horror of having such people make such decisions.

And you didn't clarify what you're trying to get at with your question in terms of quantification and the term "heinous" which is of course a relative term. Hey, I tried.

[MattBaggins]

43. I have no problem with life in prison

the DP though is stupid, particularly when it has to rely on words like heinous.

[ellisonz]

44. You know a lot of people think life in prison without parole is heinous too...

[MattBaggins]

45. I think heinous is a useless word.

I don't believe in murder.

[treestar]

17. I'm against the death penalty in all cases

And definitely in a case where there were no murders.

[sadbear]

48. Yes and YES!!!

[dkf]

52. A murder can take only one moment of heinousness. What he did is worse.

He kept up his masochistic behavior for YEARS. Actually maybe it would be justice if he too endured daily torture every minute for the rest of his life. Maybe he would last long enough to exceed the daily torture he subjected two kids and one woman to. I only hope he gets life in prison if his life is so painful he wishes he got the death penalty.

[SoCalMusicLover]

18. His Defense Has Already Begun

I'm sure there are lawyers lined up around the block to get a shot at this case.

The news of this "suicide note" he wrote, where he supposedly said that he had been abused as a child, is his first salvo in the attempt to mount a defense for himself.

After a few years, $$$$$$$$$$ of taxpayer costs and attorney fees, continued grief for the families and friends.....our justice system will get around to convicting this piece of garbage for what should be clear as day took place.

I'm sorry, but our "justice" system is broke. This guy is HUMAN GARBAGE, and he should not take up resources of this planet. From statements by the victims, once it is determined beyond doubt that he is 100% guilty, that should be the end of it. Do not pass go, do not collect life in prison.

His crimes are so horrible, I see no further use for this individual on our planet. Why should taxpayers have to subsidize his existence, when the financial conditions of our economy are so poor?

For those who believe the death penalty is basically stooping to their level, here is why that argument makes little sense to me. I do not consider the taking of a killer's life, as stooping to the level of a killer who has murdered innocent people.

But this issue will always be divisive, and our justice system will always give the maximum benefits to the guilty, while attempting to relieve some of the trauma for the loved ones of those murdered, raped or otherwise abused.

What this guy did is the stuff of nightmares. He has worn out his right to live as a human being, IMO, and should be treated as such. There is NO defense or excuse for what he did. No need to trot out doctors and experts to argue about why he is the way he is. He not only took away 10 years of the prime of life for these young women, he did things that will haunt them forever. He is scum.

[geek tragedy]

20. Due process protects the worst of us, or it protects none of us. nt

[SoCalMusicLover]

24. I Know, I Just Want The Perfect World I Guess

Where you know someone is guilty without question, and you treat them as such.

Unfortunately with that, there is always room for error.

I just think if our justice system was more swift, perhaps criminals would find it less likely to commit these crimes and get away with it. Or be able to such taxpayers dry, a la Jodi Arias, mounting a defense where a defense shouldn't even exist.

[geek tragedy]

25. We're under no obligation to pretend his guilt is in doubt.

But, the criminal justice system is.

Immediacy is a factor in deterrence. If you know you're going to go to jail the nanosecond you commit a crime, there'll be considerable hesitation.

[HangOnKids]

27. The Perfect World?

Because YOU always know who is guilty? Really, my class of third graders has more sense.

[MattBaggins]

39. "mounting a defense where a defense shouldn't even exist"

What an interesting comment

[noamnety]

30. Just for starters:

"Why should taxpayers have to subsidize his existence, when the financial conditions of our economy are so poor?"

The cost of a death penalty case with all its appeals exceeds the cost of life in prison.

"Using conservative rough projections, the Commission estimates the annual costs of the present (death penalty) system to be $137 million per year." (California)

"Of the 162 capital cases, there were 106 cases in which a death sentence was sought but not handed down in Maryland. Those cases cost the state an additional $71 million compared to the cost non-death penalty cases."

and so on: http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/costs-death-penalty

So my question to you is which social programs would you cut to subsidize your sense of revenge? And what is the impact to the innocent people whose programs you want to cut? How many people end up dead because we cut programs to fund each death penalty case?

[MattBaggins]

38. But you find them worthless, garbage

the same attitude sociopaths and criminals have to their victims. Inability to see others as human or of any worth.

[SoCalMusicLover]

51. If The Shoe Fits

Yes, I'd say that anyone who kidnaps 3 Thirteen year old women, tortures them, holds them captive, rapes them, forces them to miscarry multiple times....and who knows what else will come out.....is Garbage.

I see the girls, their families, and guys like Mr. Ramsey to be human beings of worth. Ariel Castro does not serve any purpose in this world IMO. He has abdicated that right when he kidnapped, raped and tortured those women for 10 years.

[dkf]

53. Would you like to elaborate on the worth of this asshole?

Please do go on...