Some of here sometimes feel Unwelcome. Even many of us who were here back..Way Back

[KoKo]

Last edited Thu May 9, 2013, 07:38 PM - Edit history (3)

to the Bush Selection..and then the Kerry Fake De-Selection.

Some of us feel we worked hard for the Democratic Party we grew up with and believed in.

Some of us feel that that Dem Party left us out.

-------------

Is there a WAY TO RECONCILE THIS? I wonder if there can be a "Civil Discussion" about how the Democratic Party Left us to the RIGHT?

I wonder if ANYONE ...even Noticed.

But...point of this is is: HOW CAN WE MAKE OUR DEM PARTY...notice the changes and how can WE Make a DIFFERENCE?

Or...what?

[angstlessk]

1. Hell, I said when Clinton was president and the Newt was in some sort of leadership..

do not remember what it was...but I noted that turning America into a third world country would make some people LOTSA MONEY

[KoKo]

3. Lotsa Money was made...it just didn't "Trickle Dow." It seems in retrospect that what

we were TOLD WOULD be GOOD...turned out to not be so...

That's what I'm thinking these days...thinking a lot about...

[Junkdrawer]

12. LOL "Trickle Dow." - A typo with a message.

[Phentex]

33. It's very appropriate

when you think about it!

[graham4anything]

62. I bet you a million shares it was NO typo. It should say (pun intended) to be honest

[Occulus]

73. Best. Typo. Ever.

You win DU. Congrats!

[graham4anything]

27. People who say the like economics but hate the Clintons are being disingenious.

either one is FOR the democratic party whatever the candidates are
or one is for Newt Gingrich and the Tea Party and Karl Rove

there are only two choices

and all the anti-Obama talk and anti-Hillary talk does is give fodder for Karl Rove

either/or
there is NO third option in the way America is set up.

The economy was great in the 1990s with Clinton.
The USA was happiest in 1977-1978-halfo of 1979.

then fracture and opposition to the same people by the protesters elected the worst republicans ever.

80-20.
it would could and will be 80-20.

[Vincardog]

52. IMO that is a load of BS. The GOP has no problem deserting a candidate who does not toe the party l

line. As a result the party moves to the RIGH. Posts like yours serve to disempower the left and enable the Democratic party too to move to the RIGHT.

If we want to party to respond to our concerns we need to target the politicians who don't support us and primary them.

[graham4anything]

55. Jeb Bush is back. Why? Because the tea party serves the Bush's and the people planted by Rove

Do you think Sarah Palin came from nowhere? Bachmann, the others?

They are so exteme, they make Jeb look sane to them

all part of the plan.

Did anyone actually think Eugene McCarthy or George McGovern could win a national election,
even if they are great nice guys who one could have a BBQ with.

One can PRIMARY but one has to 100% support a straight democratic ticket during the primary
even if one has a primary challenge.

NOT 3RD PARTY

[Vincardog]

56. You are free to vote any way you want. nt

[graham4anything]

65. You are free to vote for Ralph Nader, but accept Nader threw the election on purpose

and realize actions=consequences

Nader fully wanted Gore to lose
Perot fully wanted 41 to lose
both got their wish.
(note-perot proved he wasn't against the politics by strongly endorsing W in 2004)
and McCain in 2008 and Mitt in 2012).and Jeb in 2016 will get his endorsement too.

[Vincardog]

109. I hope you realize I have the same freedom with my vote as you do. Don't preach. I will vote for who

ever best represents my point of view. You can project anything you want into that.

[BlueCaliDem]

63. Excellent points, graham4anything.

Too bad it's lost on some who, if they don't everything they want {whatever that new shining thing is}, instead of working to get more progressive candidates, they either sit out elections or vote 3rd party. And then they proudly crow that they're not "group-thinkers". Yeah, maybe, but they sure are chronic and willful losers in the political game - and Corporate America thanks them for their help.

[patrice]

75. 1+ I've actually seen Green Party people say, to the effect, "We're sitting this out until the

system breaks and then we'll be the most popular choice, so we'll take over and change things."

I like Green Party for a few good reasons, but I'm gob-smacked by the naivete.

All I could think to say back was that I'd NEVER work with anyone who hasn't been in the trenches, fighting the good fight for the people, the WHOLE time.

[HERVEPA]

176. Patrice, "naivete" is absolutely the correct word choice

Those waiting for the revolution are going to have along, long wait.

[whatchamacallit]

204. Right, in the meantime (as in forever)

we vote based on practicality and stay locked in the corrupt and dysfunctional two party dance.

[Egalitarian Thug]

86. Are you channeling Herman Cain?

80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20 80-20

It didn't work for him either...

[graham4anything]

95. A few weeks ago, when one of the 20 had a yada yada petition, and Elijah Cummings refused to

sign it, and they started putting down Rep. Cummings the other democratic legends, it said it all.
Totally racist.

Herman Cain is part of the 20. If he wants to join the adult world, he is invited.
Don't really know him, and his pizza sucks, but then I am from NYC and any pizza sucks that isn't actual NYC pizza.They can't make pizza anywhere else.
NYStyle means it isn't.

[jtuck004]

87. That's like saying the only choices are dating someone who says they are going to fuck you,

or dating someone who says they aren't while they are pulling down your pants.

There are always other choices.

Life may be more comfortable on the plantation, as both Harriet Tubman and Malcom X pointed out, but cost of that subjugation, even as a sharecropper, is, eventually, too damn high.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

174. Crude but apt analogy

I'd like to add "...while they're pulling down your pants and giving you a candy bar."

[rhett o rick]

126. The Clinton years were so wonderful, millions couldnt wait to vote for a Republican.

You blame Nader because you dont want to face facts. Blaming Nader is a rationalization.

You say "there are only two choices", and I dont agree. In 2016 we will be given a choice of voting for two candidates that will be heavily sponsored by the 1%. This war we engage in is a class war and neither candidate will favor the 99%.

[mattclearing]

158. That "with us or against us" talk is exactly what people hated about George W. Bush.

Politics is about determining the future of your community together, not blind hero worship.

Also, disingenious isn't a word.

[LanternWaste]

275. those who tell us there are only X solutions to any given problem are dogmatic political hacks

More often than not, I perceive those who tell us there are only X solutions to any given problem as dogmatic, political hacks pushing an agenda at best who pretend anecdotal evidence is proof, and make up far too many things to be trusted.

Then I realize they are more likely, simpletons; sweet, little simpletons who deny additional solutions to maintain the convenience of a simplistic world. Bless their little hearts.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

173. Yes, I noticed the rightward shift in the 1990s, but

the stock market was high, and people who owned houses were deluded into thinking that the appreciation of their houses made them "rich."

They didn't want to hear about the casualties of right-wing economics. For example, I began to see people over the age of 50 losing their jobs and being forced into poverty in the 1990s.

[n2doc]

2. Lots of people noticed. Lots care

However I can't help but comment that I have heard the same 'unwelcome' argument posted by ardent Obama supporters, who feel that this site should not tolerate any criticism of the President or his policies.

No political party, not the repubs, or t-baggers, or libertarians, is united. Their leaders might be, but their backers are not.

To create change, it is going to have to start at the local and state level. The national parties, both of them, are in the thrall of the 1%, and frankly I don't think that is going to change. But if the pool of candidates for the future rounds of elections is made more progressive by our hard work, then change will happen. I'm not all that hopeful on that point either, but it is all I've got.

Right now, the only way to make our voices heard is to donate and work for those few candidates who support traditional democratic values. If they gain large followings (think rand paul, but opposite) they gain power.

[KoKo]

4. I think that that's what's Left, anymore. Quote from You:

To create change, it is going to have to start at the local and state level. The national parties, both of them, are in the thrall of the 1%, and frankly I don't think that is going to change. But if the pool of candidates for the future rounds of elections is made more progressive by our hard work, then change will happen. I'm not all that hopeful on that point either, but it is all I've got.

It's about all we've got LEFT...but need to KEEP IT PUSHED...until we are NO LONGER HERE! (Which some are Hoping for ...it seems..the way they are pushing us towards Repug Values). THEY SAY: "It's just Pragmatism." BUT...I SAY it's "Control and Repeal of Democratic Values."

[blkmusclmachine]

17. The DEM Party Plank is merely window dressing

the DEMS have plenty o' courage


...


to help enact Republican legislation



Fooled ya!

[olivelove]

32. I'm beginning to realize

that for progressive changes to come forth, something new and bold must emerge. Washington D.C. has become most effective at crushing progressive ideals. It's been bought by the highest bidder because they saw the for sale sign.

How can changes occur without legislation? That's the idea I'm playing with.

[graham4anything]

46. Much like Ralph Nader was paid and bought by the republican party, right?

Now he is the 1%.
regular people don't have one million in assets, let alone the many Ralphie does.

[MannyGoldstein]

241. Warren 2016 (eom)

[socialist_n_TN]

5. I haven't been here THAT long......

2009 (? I'm too lazy to look it up or so, but there's been a change since I've been posting. This used to be a solidly left web site, yes left reformist, but still left. But then DU got popular. We got a lot of props from the mainstream for our coverage of the Wisconsin uprising and then Occupy and other labor struggles. Of course, we became popular BECAUSE of our leftish coverage, but that didn't matter. When we became popular, the establishment, center-left and even neo-liberal Dems came here to make sure we "toed the line" and didn't get TOO far left. They are, in fact, trying to yank us back to the right, into being good Third Wayers. So the change IMO is because of the rise in the popularity of DU.

Luckily in my view, it isn't working too well. The majority of DU is STILL left reformist, with a solid contingent (half?) of socialists of one sort or another. But make no mistake, the Third Way, neo-liberal Dems will continue to TRY to pull us to the right. Will we resist? CAN we resist? That's to be determined, but this IS the reason for the change IMO.

Edited to add: I've been posting since March 2010.

[KoKo]

9. Good to hear from a Newer DU'er from 2010...and what you say, from your perspective

of what you've seen here is interesting to read. I think Wisconsin is a good example of the BEST of DU...where the Push was in...and getting into history of Labor Movement and that Wisconsin (of all places in history of Labor...seemed to get drowned out) was really a hard blow...but, there was much learned there that we shouldn't forget as we move forward for "THE PEOPLE."

And, thanks for that.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

175. A socialist friend of mine claims that the "Recall Walker" campaign was a distraction

to avoid what was brewing in Madison, namely, a general strike.

He said that when the local Dems got wind of plans for a general strike, they put together the "Recall Walker" campaign, because then either the campaign would win, and they could put one of their people in, which would lull most of the protesters into thinking that everything was fine now, or the campaign would lose, and the grassroots protests would fizzle.

[socialist_n_TN]

184. Oh yeah, that is undoubtedly true IMO Lydia.........

and that's because the Dems ARE a bourgeois party. In spite of the way they portray themselves when it suits their agenda, the Democratic party is NOT a worker's party. When it comes to the choice between workers and the bosses, as representatives of the SYSTEM itself, they choose the system every time. Even the Democratic hero FDR didn't institute the changes he did FOR the workers, he instituted them to SAVE CAPITALISM ITSELF. The benefit to the working class was only a side effect of saving the system.

So in Wisconsin what they did is what they always do, they distracted the workers into the electoral system rather than something as disrupting as a general strike. A general strike, I might add, that had the possibility of spreading into the greater part of the Midwest. And your friend was correct in that either way, they would win BECAUSE a long recall campaign would distract the people from the underlying causes of their struggle which is capitalism. But it wasn't just the Dems that did this. The union bureaucracy didn't want a general strike either for the same reasons that the Democratic party didn't want a general strike. The union bureaucracy has a vested interest in the system itself, so they will resist any rank-and-file calls for wider actions and funnel the bottom up dissatisfaction into "safe" alternatives like negotiations and elections. Even any strikes called for by the bureaucrats are ONLY for economic issues, NOT overall and class wide political ones.

My group (Worker's Power-US) wrote extensively on this and, through analysis of the situation at the time, we predicted EVERYTHING THAT CAME TO PASS. Including Walker's winning the recall and nothing changing in Wisconsin. You can go to the website and read our articles and see. A widespread labor action, that included a statewide and even a regionwide general strike, was the only thing that could have saved worker's rights in Wisconsin. It wouldn't have NECESSARILY worked, but we knew that NOTHING else even had a chance.

[n2doc]

30. I think what you are seeing are the true believers of Obama

Since Obama has moved rightward, they have followed. If he were to move leftward, they would too. He is always correct, to them.

All parties have their true believers. They would not function without them. It doesn't make life easier for those who try to hold onto a fixed set of principles, though.

[TBF]

70. Obama was always pretty conservative -

the party wanted him because they saw someone electable. In this country getting Malcolm X elected would be impossible, but Obama is ok because he doesn't threaten the status quo. And you are dead on with your analysis - the party has definitely been at work here.

[L0oniX]

78. The cult of personallity and pride blinds IMO. n/t

[Skittles]

6. are you referring to the swooners?

fuck them

[Le Taz Hot]

50. "The Swooners."

Perfect!

[ProSense]

7. Maybe the key

"then the Kerry Fake De-Selection."

...is to focus on pushing good policies and winning elections (only candidates that run can win) instead of the above. I mean, you can't even get people here to agree: You claim it was "the Kerry Fake De-Selection" and other here claim the election was stolen.

Howard Dean: Republicans "doing everything they can to make sure Congress goes Democratic in 2014"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022790812

[Junkdrawer]

8. The change goes back to at least Mondale and Dukakis....

That's when the DLC came to rule the roost. Work WITH Big Business, don't fight them. So we won the White House and lost the Party.

[KoKo]

11. I'm not so much thinking it was Mondale ...but, that you are correct about Dukakis...

When he was chosen I wondered where the Dem Party was going. He was like what the Republicans pick...these days..(although never as bad as those borderline Fascists...)yet..he just wasn't experienced enough or able to put through a message that fired up the Dem Party.

Mondale was better connected and had a good Dem kind of vibe...but it was not to be with Reagan. The Party later picked Dukakis against Poppy Bush...and it didn't turn out well. Dem "Image Makers" had more to work with if Mondale had been the pick...and he probably was the better pick...but, didn't get the baking. We Dems were still searching for the "UnderDog" we could pick for the "Comman Man/Woman." That might have been Dukakis they were Spinning at the time.

I don't remember many books written about that Fiasco Election... Maybe other DU'ers do remember some wonderful, inspiring Book that made sense of that time. It's sort of "forgotten Dem Political History."

[Junkdrawer]

13. What I was alluding to was that back-to-back BIG loses opened the door for the DLC....

We had Congress, but not the White House, so I guess the feeling was that a little compromise to take the White House could be tolerated as the main body of the Party sat in the legislature.

[graham4anything]

28. bull. Mike Dukakis is one of the biggest liberals there is.

One seems to forget what liberal means

it does NOT mean Ron Paul or Progressive.
Progressives cross the circle and meet in the middle

liberal over progressive any day.

People here who hated the Clintons and Dukakis would have hated John Lindsay too.
shame that is true.
and it mattered little what label was after JVL's name either.

and LBJ was the biggest socialist,progressive liberal
pity what the protesters did to him

all that is missing in 2013 would be Senator LBJ helping Harry Reid get things done
and not railing against the system like other senators do.

no one outside of the democratic party is going to get anything any TRUE democratic party person wants.

NO ONE.
especially Rand and Ron Paul.
and NO the clock is not correct 2 times a day is NOT politically right.
Rand and Ron Paul are wrong 24 hours a day every day.

Anyone who liked LBJ the true liberal knows that to be true
Anyone who liked the Kennedy's (all 3 of them) know it to be true
anyone who liked FDR knows that to be true
FDR would have been the first to rail against the Paul's demagoguery
and Abe Lincoln staved his entired being to rail against the later George Wallace and the Paul's

[Junkdrawer]

36. LBJ did escallate this little thing called Vietnam.....

I'm thinking THAT was the reason for the protests.

[graham4anything]

37. Truman and Eisenhower and JFK's war.

what did the protest do?
Elected Nixon.

end of discussion.

HHH would have lost the general to Nixon regardless of Bobby being alive or dead.
HHH would have been the nominee and would have lost to Nixon.
The primaries of then were not set up as today's.

and any president would have done in Vietnam the same thing

so its a bogus issue in 2013

because in 1968 losing was not an option.
If it was, the whole billions and billions spent on space wouldn't have mattered if Russia beat us there and we would have applauded loudly for any space walk
because losing was not an option we spent the money and won

and the war ended when it ended. In fact getting rid of LBJ caused the war to end later than it would have.

but protesters threw him in the river and Got Nixon and later got 1000 times worse when they threw Carter away like yesterday's trash to elect Reagan.

[Junkdrawer]

39. Well...we tried "hey hey LBJ, how many kids did the war started by Ike, continued by JFK...

and GREATLY escalated by you were killed today"

But it was kinda unwieldy.

[graham4anything]

41. Nixon might have been the songwriter of the cheer, as he was the beneficiary

much like the Bush's were the beneficiary of Watergate getting rid of Nixon and installing the Bush's in power for 50 plus years

the war=wedge issue

the choice=like the Bush's and Nixon or not.

the answer=LBJ

[Junkdrawer]

42. I'm thinking folks who lost HS and college buddies who were drafted and killed in 'Nam...

probably came up with the chant.

[graham4anything]

44. whatever.one can debate Vietnam or face political reality and accept consequencesof that protest

much like the SDS leader Rudd said when he strongly supported Barack Obama.

Bush or LBJ, the choice is clear
I will pick LBJ 100% of the time.

Simple math when 270 is the number.

[G_j]

53. nice spin

yet another opportunity to blame the protests/protesters.


(research helps dispel RW spins on American history)

October surprise of 1968

http://www.consortiumnews.com/2000/111300a.html

November 13, 2000

Who Should Concede?
The Secret History of Modern U.S. Politics
By Robert Parry

<snip>
The Vietnam War was raging and was creating deep divisions within the Democratic Party. In October 1968, President Lyndon Johnson was maneuvering to achieve the framework for a peace settlement with North Vietnam and the Viet Cong through negotiations in Paris.

At the time, 500,000 American soldiers were in the war zone, and civil strife was tearing the United States apart. Nixon feared that a pre-election peace agreement could catapult Humphrey to victory.

According to now overwhelming evidence, the Nixon campaign dispatched Anna Chenault, an anti-communist Chinese leader, to carry messages to the South Vietnamese government of Nguyen van Thieu. The messages advised Thieu that a Nixon presidency would give him a more favorable result.

Journalist Seymour Hersh described the initiative sketchily in his biography of Henry Kissinger, The Price of Power. Hersh reported that U.S. intelligence “agencies had caught on that Chennault was the go-between between Nixon and his people and President Thieu in Saigon. … The idea was to bring things to a stop in Paris and prevent any show of progress.”

In her own autobiography, The Education of Anna, Chennault acknowledged that she was the courier. She quoted Nixon aide John Mitchell as calling her a few days before the 1968 election and telling her: “I’m speaking on behalf of Mr. Nixon. It’s very important that our Vietnamese friends understand our Republican position and I hope you made that clear to them.”

Reporter Daniel Schorr added fresh details in The Washington Post’s Outlook section . Schorr cited decoded cables that U.S. intelligence had intercepted from the South Vietnamese embassy in Washington.

<snip

[graham4anything]

57. yes,you prove my point AND Nixon led to how many more years of war with that?

in retrospect, had LBJ won, the war would have ended most likely in Dec. 1968.

no need for dirty tricks after an election especially back then without obstruction

it's instant gratification for the protesters, and long term negative because of it

IF LBJ were the nominee WITHOUT any fracture, things could have been different

(and Bobby still alive could have won in 1972 and 1976, instead of if alive still losing to Nixon in 1968. He was NOT assured of the nomination and there would have been no guarantee the war would have ended (AND REMEMBER who hired McNamara in the first place? JFK not LBJ.
McNamara lied but LBJ took the blame and because he had a heart, he stepped away.

It's like a disfunctional family
At a family dinner one rails against another family member
Outside, if you say something about my sister, I will defend her to the end and hope she would too.
Dirty laundry should remain inside and not for the world to see

This is a public board and you can be sure, this is being read by TPTB including Karl Rove.

it would be one thing if we all were pure and hidden from public view debating amongst outselves and we had the power to place candidates we decided on.

[zeemike]

115. Bullshit....had RFK lived he would have been president.

There is no doubt in my mind...he had a great deal of energy behind him especially among the young and the labor democrats...
I lived in those times and I remember it well.

[Junkdrawer]

120. Historical revisionism, thy name is graham4anything.... n/t

[zeemike]

134. The unfortunate thing is that some of us remember.

But soon we will be dead and they can write it the way they want it to read.

[Junkdrawer]

136. Ever think you'd make it to "Elder with long memory" status?

I sure didn't.

[zeemike]

137. Nope.

When you are young 40 seems too old.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

177. Hmph, I had "elder with long memory" status back in 2004, when Jiacinto

(remember him?) who was a child in the 1980s (I was in my 30s), was trying to "educate" us about the Mondale and Dukakis candidacies.

The DLC types kept repeating "Mondale and Dukakis lost because they were too liberal," and I kept repeating, "No, they lost because they ran lousy campaigns."

During both campaigns, I remember cringing at some dumb move and thinking, "Are the Democrats trying to throw the election?"

[Junkdrawer]

178. Whoever put Dukakis in that tank should be shot.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

181. That was supposed to make him look "strong on defense"

and the picture that publicized was worse than that. It showed just his head sticking out of the opening. He looked like a cartoon character.

[graham4anything]

141. No, HHH would have been the nominee anyhow.And he still would have lost due to fracture.

Funny thing is though, LBJ was 100times as liberal as RFK.
LBJ did things others only dreamed of. LBJ did.
and one forgets, without LBJ, JFK would never have won in 1960.
It was a great thing that LBJ accepted the VP.

It was sheer genius.
The best team up until President Obama asked Hillary to be his SOS

You see, in 1968 the democratic party was fractured.
Wallace the racist
McCarthy still thought he should be the nominee
HHH

and only some wanted Bobby.

It's not revisionist, it's the truth.

Eugene McCarthy hated what Bobby did, and mcCarthy was the anti-war candidate.
In essence, McCarthy was what Howard Dean was in 2000, and Bobby was Kerry.

Remember what Murray Kempton famously wrote?
" Bobby was like a man who comes down from the hills after the battle and shoots the wounded."

anyhow, I defy you to say how Bobby would have won the electoral college?
HHH was leading at the time of RFK's death in delegates, and in support of the party, and the big unions.

And McCarthy as said was the Howard Dean.And he never quit.
and, to top it off, George McGovern was a late entry into the race and he was nominated in 1972.

Wallace won 47 electoral votes (I would wager, LBJ would have won all of those),
and Nixon won California

The only one who could have beaten Nixon was LBJ.

And remember, the most important endorsement anyone got was Richard Daley,Chicago's cool populist, and HHH got that.

[zeemike]

143. No you are wrong...I remember

I was politically active then and I know full well that RFK had a steam roller behind him..
People were fed up with LBJ and he was about as liberal as Joe Lieberman....or Storm Thurmond.
But you are right, it was a great thing for the MIC that LBJ ran...cause he would and did expand the war in Viet Nam...and a good thing for the MIC that RFK was dead cause he seriously threatened their little industry....there were billions to be made by keeping it going.
But you can spin it anyway you want, but I am telling you I was paying attention then and I know Bobby would have won...he was hope in 1968 like Obama was in 2008 only more so because of his name and we knew him...The people had lost confidence in the party and wanted change and Bobby represented that....and he was our one chance to change things...and they killed him.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

179. That's how I remember it, too

People were fed up with LBJ, Humphrey was tainted by his association with LBJ (although he came within a centimeter of winning the 1968 election--I remember that the results were not clear till the middle of the next day), and RFK had real enthusiasm behind him. He had just WON the California primary when he was killed, and he was about to run in the New York primary, which he would have won as well (because he was one of their senators). In other words, he would have gone into the Democratic convention with the two largest states behind him.

[zeemike]

190. And the Chicago convention would have had a much different tone.

And those out in the streets because of the war would have had a candidate in RFK because he promised to end it...and I don't think it was a false promise at all.
It would have been the GOP's worse nightmare....a united party with a candidate that was popular and charismatic.
What a efferent world that could have been.

“Of all the words of mice and men, the saddest are, "It might have been.”

― Kurt Vonnegut

[Lydia Leftcoast]

194. And just two months before, MLK, with his growing critique of the economic system

and its ties to the war machine, had been assassinated.

Just think, the two most eloquent and popular spokesmen for a new approach to American politics, both gunned down two months apart, one by a no-account drifter who suddenly had the money for a first class air ticket to London (in the days when a coach ticket cost almost as much in real terms as a business class ticket does now), the second by a man who claimed not to remember shooting in a case that had a lot of holes in it.

[zeemike]

198. Yep it was very convenient tor Nixon and the right wing.

But we are not allowed to think to hard on that....we would be getting into the conspiracy theory and people will come down on you for that.
That category was created to put thinking like that in so it can be dismissed.

[TheKentuckian]

16. Yup and a multi-generational hold on Congress.

Now there are Teabaggers galore.

What happened? We ceded our ground to get the White House (and only succeeded because of Perot splitting the conservative vote) and much has been a mess ever since.

[Egalitarian Thug]

90. We won the election because, despite incipient insanity, Ross Perot started telling people

what was really going on and got 20% of the vote for his effort.

The DLC-3rd way-Blue Losers haven't accomplished anything except to lose elections and decimate the party.

[Junkdrawer]

94. 1994....

QED

[graham4anything]

142. The Beatles were mainstream, so were the Stones, so were the Dead.

reminds me of the Clash
soon as they had a #1 record, their whining about being poor was the end of their career.
(Like Roger Waters singing "Money" while being one of the richest people in the world.)

Roger Waters and the Clash are mainstream.

nothing wrong with mainstream.

the funny thing is-if one actually believed the 1%/99% stuff and that everyone should be equal, then wouldn't they love the world.

As Stephen Stills sang "if you can't be with the one you love, love the one you're with".
Mattered little to him whether the person buying "Ohio" was a democratic or a republican or even with George Wallace. Dinner was dinner. They never refused to sell an album to anyone.

[bluestate10]

253. Maybe we should have a party that exists on the fringes while republicans rule everything

and impose brutal, sociopath policies. The far Left was lost and the country was suffering because of that. We got 12 years of Reagan and Bush I due to an overly left leaning democratic party, was that in anyone's best interests? A lot of the social policies that the Left decry started and embedded under Reagan-Bush and flourished under Bush II when the Left gave Bush II the Presidency by voting for Nader in key states, knowing the election was coming down to Election Day in a dead heat. Finally, unless you want to point a finger at those of your ilk as being part of the problem, take your dismissive attitude and keep it to yourself.

[Junkdrawer]

254. You won. Republicans vs Democrats became Troglodytes vs Republican-Lites.

Winning is EVERYTHING don't cha know.

[bluestate10]

258. Results matter. The alleged republican-lits have accomplished more in two decades than

the Esteemed (in their view) accomplished since that DLC President, Lyndon Johnson. Results are more important than winning, that is something the Left, in it's fog of self assessed state of ideological supremacy thinking, can't remotely get a fucking grip on.

[Nye Bevan]

10. Constructive criticism of Democratic party and President Obama's policies is welcomed here.

As long as you are not advocating third-party you should not feel left out.

[Flying Squirrel]

25. It is actually ok to advocate for third party progressive candidates in some cases on DU

where it is extremely unlikely to change the result... check TOS.

[panzerfaust]

49. As long as by 'constructive criticism' one means fawning acceptance of evermore rightwing policies

There would be no need to be "advocating third-party" if the current Democratic party would actually support liberal and progressive ideals.

[Egalitarian Thug]

91. +1 and once again, we need a like/recommend option for comments. n/t

[emulatorloo]

127. Straw-fucking-man argument

[defacto7]

154. Absolutely correct! n/t

[northoftheborder]

191. Yes, yes, yes.

[Half-Century Man]

14. Action

Simple as that. Find or start Democratic meetings. Speak, listen.

[intheflow]

15. OMG, thank you!

I hate to even post most days because some centrist who's only been here since Obama was elected is going to get all up in my shit like I'm a delusional idiot who doesn't have a clue about how life is in the real world. I don't know what the answer is, I haven't any idea how to reconcile it - except to keep pushing back (when I have the strength) against those who are satisfied with the party being Republican Lite. I keep hoping they can be enlightened.

[kickysnana]

20. Have my sons been talking to you too? LOL

We had fun and I taught them history and current events and about unions, labor and how it affected generations before. We did community service. They did hear some debate on the R side from my Dad and an Aunt and Uncle (who we love) for balance.

But what you are saying is the line they give me every time I ask them, gently now, when they are going to make this their fight, (when the New Deal, Great Society, War on Poverty, big enough government to counter the corporations is all gone?)

They do vote D yet but too often we still l have an a Republican in Democrat's clothing, ala Norm Coleman. (Amy are your ears burning?)

Oh my stars, there is no "solidarity" or even "fist bump" smile. DU has been infiltrated and totally taken over...LOL. That is why we no longer have unity.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

18. Please consider the source. If someone who has a history of speaking out against economic injustice,

endless wars, the loss of civil rights, ..., makes you feel unwelcome, then that is something to consider.

But if they don't, and merely want you to refrain from speaking out while noticing that the actions of Obama do not match his campaign rhetoric and traditional Democratic values, that's a good reason to suspect that they are a right-wing sock-puppet.

I would be disturbed by the former but not the latter.

[RC]

29. +1000 Many here agree with what you said.

Having a (D) by your name, as many claim, is not enough. There are too many flavors of Right-of-Center, Conservative Republican hiding behind that (D).

[limpyhobbler]

226. LOL Love this graphic. nt

[Octafish]

19. YOU stay the course, KoKo...

...keep on keeping on. You can and you do BECAUSE You are a Democrat.

The phonies soon tire and drop out, even those riding in the limos or yabbing endlessly for a politically do-able, sensible, realistic, and pseudo-scientific approaches. And long before they quit, they are spotted for what they are, usually the first moment they open their mouths.

Those who care for what you describe -- Justice, Equality, Democracy, Peace, Progress, Prosperity, Liberalism, Freedom, all that Democrats stand for -- will keep going, no matter what and no matter who.

[SidDithers]

21. ...

Sid

[Junkdrawer]

23. Hey Sid. Looks like YOU'RE becoming too Left for this site....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022823814

Imagine that.

[graham4anything]

38. Isn't this META?

[SidDithers]

45. Some GD Hosts think it is...

some GD Hosts don't think it is. No consensus so it gets left.

Sid

[graham4anything]

61. trouble of course being personal opinions on political issues/cliques get in the way

[Autumn]

58. After an hour, 4 out of 5 hosts voted leave.

The alert was posted in the host forum. Consensus seems to be the post is more about the party than whining about DU.

[bike man]

64. Kitty threads stay also. nt

[rhett o rick]

197. Those that find this thread too difficult to deal with should trash it and not alert.

They alert because they want to control the discussion here. Not very "politically liberal".

I appreciate that most hosts agree to let us discuss this important issue that scares some.

[alcibiades_mystery]

22. "I FEEL like X, I FEEL like Y, I FEEL like Z"

Meh...

[treestar]

24. Where does the sense of entitlement come from?

Why are you more important than those who don't have to be cajoled, obeyed, etc.? We get that you want to order us around, not work with us. We just don't see how it's going to get us anywhere. No matter what we try to do, it won't be enough anyway. You will simply move the goalpost.

A party is a collection of people. As in all collections of people, no one person can have their way all the time.

[sabrina 1]

31. A Democratic Party is a party of people who represent Democratic values and principles.

We are well aware that within a true Democratic Party people will disagree on HOW to represent those principles, but NEVER on the principles themselves. We don't need any lectures on 'the big tent' etc.

The Dem Party's Big Tent was never intended to include Republicans or their deceptive infiltrators, that would be those who oppose Social Security, the New Deal, the Public Schools, who are for Privatization of everything, who embrace the predatory policies of Big Corporations, who do not defend Labor and Unions.

THEY have a Party of their own and Democrats will never, ever stop pointing them out when they infiltrate our party until it is THEY who are made to feel uncomfortable in OUR party.

[treestar]

35. It is a big tent, if you decide it is not big enough for you

That's on you, how can you imagine it will be well received by the majority in the party that you are taking your toys and going home because we won't do it your way? Who gets to decide what the democratic principals are? All of the Democrats, not just some who select themselves of holier than thou and entitled to be obeyed.

[sabrina 1]

40. I love the tactic of NOT reading a comment, then posting what is supposed to be a response

to the comment and completely changing what the comment says and replacing it with what you wish it had said. Hasn't anyone told you that this is a right wing tactic or have you never had an argument with a right winger?

Now, mostly for the benefit of others who will actually read what people say.


There is NO WAY in HELL I will leave this Party to the Republican Lites/Third Wayers/DLCers who have infiltrated it. NO WAY. THAT is a challenge to us now we KNOW they are in our party with their Right Wing ideas.

If Right Wing policies promoted by pretend Democrats are what you are willing to defend, then expect us, Democrats to fight them every step of the way and any Politician who attempts to sneak them by the people.

This TENT is NOT big enough for Republicans and their spin offs such as the Third Way. Democrats do not support the dismantling of the New Deal.

I notice too, because I actually do read posts and respond to what they say, that you never address the issues, only anyone is not willing to hand over this party or to defend anyone who is, to the Right Wing Corporate Interests that have managed to infiltrate a large part of our party at this point.

[patrice]

81. Agreed. period. AND I have been wondering if anyone would like to consider that Third -whatever in

an alternative light.

I understand that "the Third Way" is associated with the DLC and their main PR go tos, the Clintons, but the precept of a Third -whatever is something that I think we would benefit from giving more careful consideration, especially as regards differences amongst ourselves even as we try to be "one" in opposition to oppressors of all kinds.

The raison d'etre of a "third" anything is SYNTHESIS. One OR MORE , syntheses, between two elements, can happen in practically in-numerable ways, especially in highly complex situations, and the character of any given synthesis depends upon whom, precisely, is doing the synthesizing. This is why we associate too much corporate compliance and war support with the Third Way engendered by the DLC. Those involved in that deal-making, and how, therefore, the deals precisely were made, are the PRODUCT of the milieu in which they manifested themselves, so the Clintons/DLC are who they are and, to me, the real questions are about how the Left becomes enough of a force to affect synthesis(es) in a specifically Leftish way, how to discover what that Left-synthesis(es) could be and how, process-wise, to take a stand on that, especially since corporations, and hence corporate personhood, AFFECT LABOR, which could result in some deals that could reiterate the oppressors on better terms for some but not others.

Please understand that I'm NOT talking against Labor, just trying to point out their very special position in ALL of this and trying to be honest about various prejudices that are common, regardless of party labels; one of which prejudices is against socialism. I have it on relatively good academic authority (from a friend whose master's research on propaganda lead her to this conclusions) that co-incidental to this phase of the decline of Labor triggered by Nixon, courting and then double-crossing the big powerful rich unions, was an internal purge, inspired by Joe McCarthy, of anyone who had even a whiff of the Red Scare about them, which resulted in their abandonment of less powerful unions which unions included folks like the UMW, who were in turmoil at that time, and also Farm Workers who included amongst their ranks not only non-white ETHNIC groups and women claiming economic justice for less well-paid workers.

My point in bringing this up is that from the first of this latest schism here at DU, I have been worried about losing Labor's opportunity for the right to organize, the EFCA 2.0. I guess I'd have to say that I'd give up a LOT to see a Constitutional affirmation of the rights of ALL workers to organize, not just those with enough economic clout to do it and get away with it. To get there, to get to something like EFCA 2.0 and, thus, to call on unions about their own prejudices (of all kinds) we MUST synthesize something that is more functional for the Left than just "Let it all crash and burn and then we'll start over and presto-change-o authentic revolution will produce all of the solutions we need" (in god knows how many decades).

I'm saying that I think it is necessary to recognize the authentic NEED for a "third" something, a synthesis or syntheses, and then to take strategic measures to be an essential part of that definition in a way that actually works well enough that next-steps toward social and economic justice can manifest out of that relatively new set of relationships. Part of the problem in talking about this stuff is that tooooo often everyone wants to tell you that you are "unprincipled" when, in fact, in the throes of such a process the most real principles become stronger and draw people together. It's a MORE principled way of engaging the struggle than just balkanizing until the last man is left standing in the carnage talking about "starting over".

[MineralMan]

47. You said "A Democratic Party." "The Democratic Party,"

however, is what those who make it up decide it is. And there's the issue. The people who decide which candidates run under the banner of "The Democratic Party," are those who participate in that process. The people who write the state and national platforms for "The Democratic Party" are those who participate in that process, which starts with local party organizations.

As one of those participants, I've observed a broad range of opinions among Democrats throughout that process. It's very similar to the range seen here on Democratic Underground. Some of those participants trend far to the left, while others are more centrist in opinion. The one thing they have in common is participation. Those who do not participate do not have a voice. They are silent in the process.

"The Democratic Party" is a different thing than what you're talking about being "A Democratic Party." "The Democratic Party" I participate in is meticulous in always having participants vote on everything, from platform issues to delegates to the various levels of conventions where final decisions are made. The process is democratic, but only those who actively participate are part of the decisions made.

"The Democratic Party" varies from state to state and from region to region within each state. It all depends on who shows up and takes part. Then, once the conventions are over, it is left to the voters of the district, state, or nation to decide on the rest. The overwhelming majority doesn't participate in all that comes before the elections. They can't be bothered. Once all of that work, and the elections, are over, though, they often complain that things did not turn out the way they'd prefer.

Activism requires participation. Only through participation in the process followed by "The Democratic Party" will produce "A Democratic Party" you helped to create. It's very simple.

[sabrina 1]

84. You are wrong. This country has two Parties, one is not A Democratic Party, it is A Corporate

Party. The other is A Democratic Party. That is OUR Party. I said exactly what I meant to say.

I hardly need to be lectured as to what 'activism' for A Democratic Party as opposed to A Corporate Party.

If I need advice in that department there are many excellent DU activists here who, throughout the Bush years were here organizing, working to get OUR Party into power, which they did. Those are the people I would seek advice from considering I know their experience.

Now that we know that the ONLY Democratic Party we have has been infiltrated by Corporate puppets, I know now exactly what we have been doing wrong in order to maintain A Democratic Party in this country rather than TWO Corporate Parties.

[KoKo]

213. The "Corporate Party" infiltration into Dem Party is a huge concern.

Thanks, Sabrina!

[bluestate10]

262. Treestar is right. Your part of the party moves the goalposts.

You moved it big on your SS claim. You should study the original intent of SS and study the changes to it. The program was not intended to support anyone but Widows and Orphans. I think that changes to SS have been positive from the standpoint of beneficiaries. But over time, parasitic companies have latched on to SS to buttress profits, those companies must be called out. Republicans will try to halt the callout and the Left will freak out at changes that adjust benefits during inflationary times, but leave the unchanged when prices are stable. The issue the Left must focus on is not whether CPI is used to baseline benefits, but whether CPI reflects actual living expenses of beneficiaries. The Left has chose to rip every plan and provide material aid and comfort to republicans, whose one and only goal is to protect parasitic companies that leach off the SS system.

[bluestate10]

260. The leftmost members of the site issue complaint after complaint, often in overly long

screeds. No viewpoint except their own is worthy of consideration. They group into clusters and ridicule everyone else. Well, screw them. I see societal problems that I can help solve. I don't give a smidgen of shit about the views of purists, who more often than not, make reflex decisions that set the cause they claim to worship back fucking decades, all in the name of some asinine desire to be "pure". What is purity when your own decisions and lack of flexibility in the least damages progress and cause those that do have a fucking clue to have to pull even harder to make progress?

[graham4anything]

26. Now is the time for all democratic people to defend Hillary. This benG. stuff is about 2016

Now is the time for all democratic people to defend Hillary. After all this is all about 2016.
NO fracutre.
100% pro-Hillary
24/7/365

either one is for Karl Rove or one is for Hillary Clinton45.

the choice is for everyone to make.

any fracture against Hillary gets picked up by Karl Rove and run

Do you not think Karl Rove reads here and on Kos?


100% to Hillary now.
I have Hillary's back.
Does everyone else?

because if they take Hillary down, Jeb Bush WILL be president.
It certainly won't be some nobody in the democratic party who will easily be dukakissed.

[L0oniX]

77. LMAO ...yea that's what we need ...another cult of personallity. n/t

[Whisp]

96. No. Never. Sorry. n/t

[pipi_k]

34. The change...

IMO, is that there's no longer a common enemy, like Bush was back then.

That's one of the best ways, as far as I can tell, of uniting people. A common enemy.

It takes the focus off of whatever differences exist within the group.

And let's not fool ourselves into believing that there aren't...or should not be...any differences.

Even two people, in a relationship or marriage, can't always agree on many things. We can't expect a group as large as a political party to agree, either.

As for feeling unwelcome, well, I don't know. All I can say to that is that often what we perceive coming from others is what we're feeling toward them. It's something to think about anyway...

[Bobbie Jo]

43. Except, it seems

Some (including a number of post 2008 arrivals) are working really hard to make Democrats the common enemy.

Speaking of unwelcome....

It's particularly ironic that many Democrats feel unwelcome on a site named Democratic Underground, that claims to support the objective of electing more Democrats.

Discussing issues and offering constructive criticism is one thing, but the daily fixation on tearing down our own with the ridiculously slanted minutiae, invented conterversy, and the neverending purity tests is another.

The constant drone of negativity is stifling and toxic, not to mention counterproductive.

[SidDithers]

48. Well said...nt

Sid

[Le Taz Hot]

54. . . .

"The constant drone of negativity is stifling and toxic, not to mention counterproductive."

Interesting choice of words there.

[Bobbie Jo]

66. More interesting

is your fixation on the use of a word.

Thanks for demonstrating my point.

[patrice]

85. It DOES become a drone when absolutely everything is a 4-alarm-fire - AND - we never see any

process stuff that says something like "here's how we should try to change this", let alone a timeline. And the reason we don't see any of that kind of process stuff is because to start laying that down will, of necessity, prioritize issues and there's almost no crossover between issues, I'd bet. Mostly we're single issue advocates, so laying down a strategy for the Left that puts my issue off from ASAP gratification just doesn't appeal to most people.

BTW, yes, I got your pun about drones, but I seriously wonder how authentic some of that cohort is, especially with what might be a strong admix of johnny-come-lately "peace"-nic Libertarians in it, who are all stirred up and eager to organize by cannabis legalization. And the reason I wonder is because I have asked numerous times how many dead innocent people that cohort is willing to accept as a RESULT of ending drone programs and I've never gotten an answer. IOW, the killing is just fine as long as it is freelance.

Also: No one in that cohort on this board has ever spoken up, to my knowledge, in opposition to the fact that Congress, and the Senate in particular, is protecting private assault weapons merchants who sell their wares in some very troubled, drone prone, parts of the world. I suspect in significant part because of political fear of a very wimpy "Big Brother" known as the United Nations (One World Order).

[Le Taz Hot]

89. I'd love to write about "process stuff"

as you call it. But adherence to the rules on this Board prohibit it and I have to respect that. As for the rest, cool diatribe, bro. Have no idea what it means but you go, girl(guy). :fistup:

[patrice]

104. Thanks! and I'm a woman. I'm also lucky to live around some other committed activists. nt

[graham4anything]

98. More people die in the USA from guns/bullets in 6 months than ALL the drones in history

so it is a faux question

also faux is the collateral question

Those same people plus could be up to millions more would have died w/o drones by the bad people in those countries who on a daily basis kill and wound.

Example-I would have welcomed a drone on Hitler if it saved 20 million lives including the 6 million of my ancestors and relatives in the process
If 10 other people died next to Hitler, they would have died anyhow, and if they too were Nazi's, well, they would have been executed had they lived to the end of the world.
If the 10 were Jews, the would have died in the gas chambers.

So one drone could have saved 20 million or more lives.

Which would you advise?

Why is it the same people who go on about drones don't want guns/bullets banned which harm more?

Odd?

What reason are people defending guns?
I don't get it?

And would we get rid of drones and have ground war that kills millions on all sides?

[patrice]

100. Fact: USA lives in physical/POLITICAL hostage to PRIVATE ARMED, ROGUE VIGILANTE, TREASONOUS TYRANNY.

[graham4anything]

101. -1million. No they don't. It's sunny outside, enjoy the evening, back later.

[rhett o rick]

99. The goal should be not to elect more Democrats but to elect more Democrats that uphold

Democratic values. It's not the same. Since radicalization of the Republican Party, many Republicans switched to the DEmocratic Party. Problem is they brought their Republican values and they are influencing the decisions of the Party.

This is not a Democrat vs. Republican fight, that would be too easy. This is a fight between the 1% and the 99%.

[Bobbie Jo]

105. What?

"Since radicalization of the Republican Party, many Republicans switched to the DEmocratic Party. Problem is they brought their Republican values and they are influencing the decisions of the Party"

What on earth are you talking about and who are these people, exactly?

[rhett o rick]

107. Since the Republicans went wacko, lots of Republican voters have switched to the

DEmocratic Party. I know some personally and have also read about it here in DU. And some DEmocrats in Congress vote along with the Republicans? Hence the term DINO.

[Bobbie Jo]

113. No....

DINO has been around longer than your theory.

Using your logic, I tend to believe Democrats picked up a bunch of truthers after 911, hence the conspiracy-laden mindset that perpetuates such theories.

[rhett o rick]

121. Why wouldnt you think that there are a lot more DINO's since the REpublican's went over the edge?

I know people that were moderate REpublicans but since Palin and Mittens, now call themselves Democrats and it's been discussed here in DU.

[graham4anything]

139. Funny if you ask Elizabeth Warren she would say she backs Barack Obama 100%

as does Bernie from da Bronx,(a good NYer and lifetime friend of the legendary Charlie Schumer, whom I used to talk to on the way to the subway every election season) as did Dennis.
In fact, because of Dennis, we got the health care we wanted.
It was 100% due to Dennis.Because he knew 10% of something is a helleva lot better than 100% of nothing.

In fact I don't know any democratic person in office that doesn't uphold the President and Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi. And thank God for Harry Reid and the 60.
That poison pen reciprical is the single worst thing in the history of the world.
With only 50, it would have become law. Only people who would have applauded were the NRA and their disciples. The NRA has wanted that forever.

It's 80-20.
I can't wait til the 20 are rendered 100% obsolete in the voting booth.

And I welcome anyone to join the democratic party so we can reach the 80.
Sorry but I don't hate 160 million people.

I am NOT interested in one single thing Ron Paul wants, nor one word of anything he has ever said in his entire life. Same with his son.
The logic that if one doesn't like W they would on purpose elect Jeb is mind boggling.

[rhett o rick]

146. Duh! Of course. They arent stupid. They are politicians. To say they werent happy with Pres Obama

would be political suicide.

We will have a choice in 2016, as dictated by the 1% Elite, of a conservative Democrat and a nut case. Hmmm.

[graham4anything]

165. I love it! It's like a beautiful Saturday morning filled w/ liquid Sunshine & smiles aglow

In NJ we finally can buy flowers and did so yesterday.
Because of late frost, one never can do it earlier.

Sure, rebels buy it a week or two early, they get itchy for that instant gratification
But we old timers know, to purchase the flowers early will lead to bad things
so we are patient
sure enough there was a frost last week, and those rebels lost their battle with the flowers and will now have to purchase new ones. We told them so, but they didn't listen.

and we wait til Mothers Day weekend.

and we don't let rain stop us, because rain is beautiful. It is Liquid Sunshine as a wonderful lady at Walt Disney World used to tell us. And she was 100% correct.
Because in liquid sunshine, the sad sams and debbie downers stayed in their hotel, especially early morning, and when we went to the park, it was empty and one could go on one ride
after another.

so, this morning, we have Liquid Sunshine, we bought our flowers early

we saw the reanimation on tv that is the Jersey Shore, which will be ready to open in 16 days
(now, we don't go much down there, but to our friends and neighbors who do travel,
and those that work down there
(and we don't ask the workers if they are democratic or republican, same at Walt Disney world...because really, does it matter if Mickey Mouse is a democratic mouse or a republican one? Hell no, they don't vote anyhow.

But bring on the liquid sunshine. Because we need the water to fill the lakes to a pristine level this summer so swimming will be nice and fresh.

I bask in the knowledge that Hillary Rodham Clinton will finally break that all men's club, like
Lee Elder finally broke the color barrier at the Master's Golf Tourney all those years ago.

Of course people didn't like Tiger Woods being the #1 player tied with Jack Nicklaus of all time.

But then they hated Jackie Robinson too. And they hated Dr. King. And they hated Michael Jordan

Haters are like the Burgermeister MeisterBurger from the animated Santa Claus is coming to town.

Hillary Rodham Clinton will be our Kris Kringle.
Filling the world with joy and happiness 24/7/365

Haters will be like the old BM MB who was rendered politically obsolete by the end of the show.

Through every little cloud in the sky, one will be able to see the wonderful smile of our President's Bill Clinton42 Barack Obama 44 Hillary Rodham Clinton 45 and Michelle Obama 46.

Ain't life Groovy!

I think it is. And so will 80% of America.

As we sang back in spring 1969, THIS IS THE DAWNING OF THE AGE OF OBAMACLINTON
LET THE SUNSHINE IN! (with apologies to the 5th demension,and Rado,Ragni,MacDermott(c)
and bring back a Clinton to the White House in 2016.
If you loved Bill and Barack, you will love Hillary.
80% of America will.

nah nah hey hey kiss the Bush's and the Ron/RandPaul/DavidDuke/John Birch Society's goodbye!

now, where was that photo of Hillary standing behind the Presidential Podium?

remember, Life is a song worth singing.

Happy Mother's Day, mom. You were forced out of Austria by Hitler the hater, and you didn't think you would live long enough to see a black President and the coming of a woman President. You knew it would happen, but you thought it was still years away.
Of course, in Hitler's world, it would never have been possible.But you are going to be here in 2016, and see Hillary win the most decisive victory of all time.
100 million voters and 475plus electoral votes including Texas.

LBJ is smiling up in heaven! God Bless LBJ everyday! Without LBJ, Barack Obama couldn't have been President.The protesters caused the war to last another 4 years, when it could have ended Dec.1968.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

183. Tactic #20,001: When facing defeat, start rambling

so that your opponent has nothing to pin down

[graham4anything]

186. ad hominem.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

187. Did I mention any names?

I just noted a common right-wing tactic that one sees all the time in televised "debates."

[graham4anything]

188. LBJ is rightwing to a few too. Don't know why,when he was the biggest liberal of all time.

[Bonobo]

225. Are you still here?

I thought maybe you were so embarrassed that the whole "bullet buyback CT" lie was pushed here on DU by you, that maybe you left.

I see not. Just laying low, huh? It's okay, I think the welcome mat is getting a bit frayed.

[socialist_n_TN]

189. Or as many call it, word salad......

I think I've figured out this poster's specific agenda though. His "job", whether it's official or not, is to make ANY opposition to the Third Way, neo-liberal Democratic agenda, into a conspiracy of the right. Witness how he conflates communists and even leftish, policy oriented Dems into RW libertarians. It doesn't matter that they're worlds apart in policy positions, THEY'RE ALL THE SAME (to him) because they oppose his chosen agenda.

Lest anybody mistake my meaning, having an agenda is not wrong. I have an agenda as do a lot of others that post here. What's wrong is trying to HIDE the agenda. MY agenda is to spread Marxism by telling folks what a Marxian analysis says about a situation or a policy and then watch that very analysis unfold in real time. Maybe this poster should be just as open about HIS agenda.

[bobduca]

192. spot on

sometimes the grandpa crazypants act is just that...

[zappaman]

108. +100 n/t

[Number23]

119. Perfect post, Bobbie Jo. Perfect.

And that "constant drone of negativity" sure as hell explains why the number of Americans that identify with liberals is hovering slightly lower than 20% despite the fact that it's liberal causes that seek to help out the more downtrodden amongst us.

People don't want to do work with a group of people far more interested in tearing down than building up, and the only thing stronger than their sense of entitlement is the belief that everyone in the country that doesn't align 100% with their single-minded beliefs is either stupid or a "corporatist."

[emulatorloo]

130. Thanks for posting this. Bobbie Jo

[LostOne4Ever]

164. Beautifully said! (nt)

[Lydia Leftcoast]

185. Not all Democrats, just the establishment types who are too buddy-buddy with the Republicans

It often happens that adult children of abusive parents blame the non-abusive parent as much as the one who did the actual abusing. Why? Because the non-abusive parent failed to stop the abuse or leave the abuser or even denied that abuse was taking place.

That's how many of us feel about the Democratic establishment. We've been abused by the Republicans, and the Democratic establishment has often gone along with it.

[graham4anything]

51. What I learned on CGCS(the offshoot Kerry board) now defunct is this

JUST because Bush wasn't liked, it didn't mean the democratic party is liked.

It is a common mistake to think the Bush's meant Kerry and Obama/and/or Hillary and Bill were wanted.

THat just meant they were Ron Paul fans then(as most of the Obama haters and Hillary/Bill haters on CGCS were.

I fell for the hate Bush means Democratic so back anything the hate Bush team did.

It was a bad mistake. And almost all turned out to be Ron Paul aka Libertarian aka Nader
aka Jill Stein psynchopants and ANYTHING BUT democratic party.

Those Hating anyhting President Obama has done since 2009 (prior to inuauguration) and anything the Clinton's did, means NOT A DEMOCRATIC person (even IF they voted for one to get the Bush's out.

THAT is the problem with anti-voters in general.

I voted FOR President Obama in 2008 and 2012 by choice, I picked him back in 2004, but 2004 was too early, though my button I have said 2004.
I voted FOR Bill and will eagerly vote FOR Hillary

I don't vote AGAINST I vote FOR.

and the democratic party fracture led to ALL loses since Adlai Stevenson lost
We could have had 80 plus years if we kept the infighting out of the public eye and just
in years one didn't like a wedge issue

One put the nose plugs on and vote straight democratic

I for one find it very greedy of individuals who put their one and only wedge issues in front of the collective good

95% of the democratic party supports Barack Obama and will support the 2016 nominee especially if it is Hillary who can and will win.
The other 5 have shown they would rather lose and nothing will make them happy

[graham4anything]

59. BTW-58 posts here on, I forgot to say - I AM MADE TO FEEL UNWELCOME because of my

support for the President and his SOS and his VP and anyone else in his cabinet.

How odd is that?
On a democratic board.

Why should I and others like me be berated day in day out personally and politically and called every other name on a democratic board where 80 to 90 to 95% of the party itself strongly supports the Democratic president and his SOS.

(including that one post made that my view wasn't welcomed on a GD discussion and basically telling me not to re-answer ).

We are made to feel as if we logged onto a freper site with the hatred spewed against our president and his SOS #1

[patrice]

88. 1+! . . . obviously you are an un-principled fellow, that's why. ;-)

[forestpath]

60. I don't think there is a way to reconcile it. I vote the issues myself. For my whole voting

life (since 1972) I've voted for Democrats. But I don't recognize the Democratic party anymore.

It's in the pockets of the rich, just like the Republican party.

My own congressman, who had a pretty liberal record, just voted for the CISPA act. He won't give me a straight answer on whether he is for Chained CPI or not now - after previously stating he would fight against any cuts to SS.

When Democrats campaign one way and vote another, I see no point in believing the Democratic party stands for anything anymore.

[mike_c]

67. been here and been green since 2002....

You've got to have a thick skin. But I have noticed a distinct turn toward the nasty in some of this discourse on DU.

[Fire Walk With Me]

68. Occupy noticed, and offers tactics with which to reclaim the government back to FDR values.

Of course, it has proven that showing up in person to make such claims is guaranteed to result in being confronted by militarized riot police intent upon eliminating dissent against the powers that be, so use tactics accordingly.

[Tarheel_Dem]

82. But nobody "noticed" Occupy, and if they did, they came away with some serious reservations.

[Fumesucker]

92. Americans have "serious reservations" about Congress

[Tarheel_Dem]

93. So do I. But I had/have even bigger reservations about Occupy!

[Bluenorthwest]

117. But why? Here's what Occupy has been doing in my town. I've shown you this before

and clearly free health care to all is something you have 'reservations' about. Doing good for those in need....you have 'reservations' about that?
http://occupymedics.wordpress.com/

I wonder what you are doing in your area for those in need that you should be judging such generous and dedicated people? Care to testify?

[Tarheel_Dem]

118. What am I doing? I pay my taxes. And no, you haven't "shown me this before". Fuck Occupy!

[rhett o rick]

124. Your hatred of Occupy makes strange bedfellows. I bet you hate whistle-blowers too. nm

[Tarheel_Dem]

125. Oh, you spoke to me? Aren't you afraid I might "bully" you? Again, Fuck Occupy!!!!!

[Zorra]

149. Fine. Fuck your worthless sorry ass conservative Third Way MIC buttkissing bullshit.

[Tarheel_Dem]

152. Oooooh!

[Zorra]

155. ...

[URL=.html][IMG][/IMG][/URL]

[Tarheel_Dem]

223. Mad? You wish you had that power, don't you? I've been yelled at by anonymous....

internet assholes before. I think I might just get by without resorting to the fainting couch.

[Summer Hathaway]

157. Your should have read the instructions ...

"Please take care not to over-use your Label-Maker. Prolonged and indiscriminate use will cause the labels produced to become blurry and incoherent, and eventually unrecognizable as anything remotely resembling coherent thought.

The aforesaid unsatisfactory results are most often caused by attempting to produce labels that include shop-worn phrases like worthless sorry-ass conservative, Third Way, MIC buttkissing bullshit, etc., over ... and over ... and over ... and over ... and over again.

If you are concerned about possible over-use of your Label-Maker, please consult the Stale Rhetoric, Cliche Talking Points & All-Around BS-Spewing Nonsense portion of our instruction manual.

But we do thank you for choosing the original Label-Maker (TM) for all of your political message board needs. When used correctly, it can often be utilized to deflect attention away from the fact that you don't know what you're talking about, and can often be perceived as a valid substitute for having something of substance to contribute to the conversation."

[Zorra]

159. LOL! Ms. Hathaway: "Hey, Zorra! Watch me pull a rabbit out of my hat!"

Zorra : "Again? That trick never works!"

Time for a word from their sponsors:

http://www.thirdway.org/


And now here's something we hope you'll really like!

As we gather together in solidarity to express a feeling of mass injustice, we must not lose sight of what brought us together. We write so that all people who feel wronged by the corporate forces of the world can know that we are your allies.

As one people, united, we acknowledge the reality: that the future of the human race requires the cooperation of its members; that our system must protect our rights, and upon corruption of that system, it is up to the individuals to protect their own rights, and those of their neighbors; that a democratic government derives its just power from the people, but corporations do not seek consent to extract wealth from the people and the Earth; and that no true democracy is attainable when the process is determined by economic power. We come to you at a time when corporations, which place profit over people, self-interest over justice, and oppression over equality, run our governments. We have peaceably assembled here, as is our right, to let these facts be known.

They have taken our houses through an illegal foreclosure process, despite not having the original mortgage.

They have taken bailouts from taxpayers with impunity, and continue to give Executives exorbitant bonuses.

They have perpetuated inequality and discrimination in the workplace based on age, the color of one's skin, sex, gender identity and sexual orientation.

They have poisoned the food supply through negligence, and undermined the farming system through monopolization.

They have profited off of the torture, confinement, and cruel treatment of countless nonhuman animals, and actively hide these practices.

They have continuously sought to strip employees of the right to negotiate for better pay and safer working conditions.

They have held students hostage with tens of thousands of dollars of debt on education, which is itself a human right.

They have consistently outsourced labor and used that outsourcing as leverage to cut workers’ healthcare and pay.

They have influenced the courts to achieve the same rights as people, with none of the culpability or responsibility.

They have spent millions of dollars on legal teams that look for ways to get them out of contracts in regards to health insurance.

They have sold our privacy as a commodity.

They have used the military and police force to prevent freedom of the press.

They have deliberately declined to recall faulty products endangering lives in pursuit of profit.

They determine economic policy, despite the catastrophic failures their policies have produced and continue to produce.

They have donated large sums of money to politicians supposed to be regulating them.

They continue to block alternate forms of energy to keep us dependent on oil.

They continue to block generic forms of medicine that could save people’s lives in order to protect investments that have already turned a substantive profit.

They have purposely covered up oil spills, accidents, faulty bookkeeping, and inactive ingredients in pursuit of profit.

They purposefully keep people misinformed and fearful through their control of the media.

They have accepted private contracts to murder prisoners even when presented with serious doubts about their guilt.

They have perpetuated colonialism at home and abroad.

They have participated in the torture and murder of innocent civilians overseas.

They continue to create weapons of mass destruction in order to receive government contracts. *

To the people of the world,

We, the New York City General Assembly occupying Wall Street in Liberty Square, urge you to assert your power.

Exercise your right to peaceably assemble; occupy public space; create a process to address the problems we face, and generate solutions accessible to everyone.

To all communities that take action and form groups in the spirit of direct democracy, we offer support, documentation, and all of the resources at our disposal.

Join us and make your voices heard!

[Summer Hathaway]

161. The only rabbit

you seem to have pulled out of your hat is the one that says "I don't have a response to what you've said, so I'll pull a rabbit out of my hat instead"

[Zorra]

162. Gosh, the point of my post was, you use the same tired meme about labels

that you and your ilk used 1 1/2 yrs. ago.

Sorry you missed that. And BTW, how's that chained CPI thing that you seemed to believe was like some figment of our progressive imaginations a year ago looking to you now?

But I digress...concerning "labeling", from most reasonable people's POV, it's perfectly OK to call a bankster loving corporatist ass kisser a bankster loving corporatist ass kisser, if that is what it is commonly defined as, and recognized as, by the majority of the liberal/progressive/democratic world.

If you want to call that labeling, that's up to you, I could care less. It is what it is.

If calling something what it is commonly defined as is labeling, it doesn't make a term or phrase any less accurate.

[Summer Hathaway]

163. "But I digress ..."

Yes, you do. And you do it rather predictably.

[Zorra]

193. Well, ya know, what can I say? Essential truths are eternal and immutable. nt

[L0oniX]

201. +1

[Number23]

218. So much for the OP's whine that it's the "left" that's getting bullied here

The only bullying I've seen is the crap directed at Tarheel.

The only thing more astounding than someone purporting to be an adult POSTING that bullshit is that three moron jurors allowed it to stand. Unreal.

[Summer Hathaway]

221. Amazing, isn't it?

When they're not slapping out the old Label-Maker (TM), they're busy defending Glenn Greenwald's spewing of RW talking points.

That's because they're sooooooooooooooooooooo left of the leftiest, and more progressiver than the progressiviest!

[KoKo]

216. Incredible post, Zorra and that your Bullet Points weren't answered but Attacked

shows that DISCUSSION isn't welcomed by many. That's really what my post was about...Discussion on moving forward.

The back and forth is revealing. When facts are given...they are ignored.

Saw the same thing today on a post about Glenn Greenwald.

I came to Democratic Underground years ago because of the quality of discussion and the diversity of the lifestyles and experiences that so many DU'ers had at that time which contributed to my strengthening of community with my Democratic Party after the Stolen 2000 Election.

But, lately it's as if the diversity is disappearing and the level of Discussions about news reports (particularly International News)and interaction and respect for "differing view points" within the Dem experience is devolving into some kind of childish name calling and wars over who is "Under the Bus" today or tomorrow ...if they seem on the "Left" of the Democratic Party or...to the Left of our President and Third Way of Dem Party which is aligned with the NeoLib of the Republican party.

Shouldn't it be important that we Democrats keep putting out information with links and not get into this "shoot the messenger" mentality that goes on here sometimes?

[DemocratsForProgress]

228. For someone purporting to crave "discussion" so much

you gave remarkably short shrift to post #167. Perhaps what you crave is simply "discussion" that agrees with you. So much for diversity, indeed.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

170. Well said. n/t

[Bobbie Jo]

199. Got your tinfoil in a wad?

Be sure to clean the spittle off your keyboard.

What a hot mess.

[Zorra]

222. That silver wad you see isn't tinfoil.

It's the CPI chain that the Third Way is trying to put around my neck.

[L0oniX]

200. LMFAO n/t

[Number23]

215. 3-3 to leave this bullshit? Are you people serious??

[rhett o rick]

237. What's the trouble? Unsuccessful in shutting down discussion? DU is for "politically liberal people"

Provide a decent argument instead of alerting.

[Number23]

266. Or I could take your approach and run off into the night when I'm asked a question

(or three) that I'm incapable of answering.

If you think a post saying FUCK YOU to someone doesn't deserve a hide, that says everything that needs to be said. About you.

[Tarheel_Dem]

256. Don't sweat it, I don't. I'm just waiting for these folks to score some real world political hits,

as opposed to DU hits. It used to be funny, and now it's just sad if you think about it. They consider it a victory to cuss someone out, on an obscure internet chat site, and not get the post hidden. Think about that. Since they have failed miserably at blowing up the Democratic Party, and have little to no impact on the body politick, they gather here to blow up DU. Hey, you take your "victories" where you can, no matter how trite, and that's just kinda sad.

Ralph Nader & Jill Stein should collaborate a book on Pyrrhic victories, they are masters at it.

[Zorra]

264. You mean like us LGBT progressives convincing an anti-LGBT sitting US President that

same sex marriage was not only constitutional but ethical as well? Or that LGBT rights are human rights?

It wasn't conservatives who did this, it was the LGBT community and liberals/progressives.

Progressives force the big social issues, like the civil rights act, despite coinservative opposition. We are always ahead of our time, and we always win eventually.

Unfortunately, right now we are in a life and death struggle with this government that has been taken over by banksters you apparently admire.

No worries, once we liberals/progressives eventually have our way and orchestrate and institute a more just and equitable political system, conservative Democrats will follow along, just like they always do. Conservatives have a tough time accepting change, and we liberals understand that. We know that once we make the changes, conservatives will eventually consider them the norm after the passage of time.

Conservatives, in any degree of conservatism, almost always resist progressive change until liberal/progressive radical activists force the issue. If minorities and Lib/prog activists had not forced the issue legal race equality, conservatives would have made sure black folks remained in the back of the bus.

So now we have a black President. Because minorities and liberals made this possible.

So come on into the light, stop fighting against progressive change, and choose to be on the right side of history early.

[Number23]

267. I know but it's almost hilarious to watch them break a sweat hauling themselves onto that cross

Last edited Sun May 12, 2013, 07:42 PM - Edit history (1)

Pretending to be so "bullied" and persecuted while being the main ones tossing around the nastiest crap. As a newbie posted downthread, he's seen so much name calling (such as the idiocy that was posted to you), and he's also made it clear which side of the fence is doing most of it.

But it's particularly funny when you send post after post after post DIRECTLY to someone and they scamper off blind and fingerless as if they didn't see them, but then:

a) a few days later want to pretend that you are "stifling" discussion when you want a post that says FUCK YOUR BULLSHIT to another poster hidden. It's astonishing the stones that some people think that they have around here.
b) OR the cretins show up five minutes after you've had a post hidden and then want to talk shit. And yes, I saw the brilliant smack downs you guys did of the poster that did that.

Like I said, it's almost hilarious. But it's really more pointlessly idiotic than anything else.

[rhett o rick]

236. Beware of those that would bully you into saying something that might get you PPR'd. It's a game

for some here.

[Zorra]

250. Very true, thanks, rhett o rick. There are degrees of conservatism, and more conservative people

are generally not as constrained by conscience, intellect, and ethics like the overwhelming majority liberals/progressives are.

Wouldn't it be awesome if the admins made all alerts retroactively transparent? Like, totally transparent? Every alert since DU3 began exposed in the light for all members to see?


The conservative serial alerters who frivolously alert on any post that challenges their dearly held beliefs or criticizes dearly beloved political figures, would be more exposed than Janet Jackson's breast at Super Bowl XXXVIII.

And this would particularly expose the conservatives who use the alert/jury system as a weapon to try to get liberals/progressives who disagree with them tombstoned.

[rhett o rick]

259. Yes I agree. Those that can not win their argument try to shut down discussion

with ridicule and alerts. And wow do they cry when a jury of their peers doesnt agree with them. Thanks to the Admins for shutting down Meta, which was being abused by the bullies.

The Democratic Party has too many conservatives that need to be sent back to their Republican party.

Dont vote third party, fight for control of our Democratic Party. Support moveon.org, DFA, PDA, the Progressive Caucus, Progressive Majority, Progressive Change Campaign Committee, and/or progressive Democrats directly. Do not support the DNC, DLC, DCCC, or DSCC.

[Zorra]

261. +1 nt

[rhett o rick]

150. You cant bully me. I feel bad for you. Your hatred for Occupy aligns you with the wrong side.

But who is surprised.

[Tarheel_Dem]

153. No, the wrong side was Occupy. Booing John Lewis, a civil rights legend, who was....

there to lend his support was disgraceful, and many black people were disgusted, and knew exactly what this movement had become. The Ron Paul signs were a dead giveaway. I don't know how to make this much clearer, but Fuck Occupy, and all who sail in her.

[graham4anything]

166. Great post. Bravo for the courage to say it!In Ron Paul's world Rep.Lewis wouldn't be in Congress

God Bless John Lewis!
[img][/img]

God Bless Elijah Cummings
[img][/img]

and the same people booing John Lewis, Elijah Cummings, Barack Obama who booed Dr. King and Jackie Robinson way back, also boo Bill and Hillary and because of that hatred, it makes me like the Clinton's more than I ever had in prior times.

Working to keep Barack Obama's aims and wishes forever.

[rhett o rick]

172. It takes no courage to hate. There were millions of Occupy protestors.

But those that dislike disruption look for something to rationalize their hatred. "I see a Ron Paul sign" therefor all the protestors love Ron Paul therefore all protestors deserve my hatred and the extreme treatment of the police. And I bet some are making their judgements of Occupy based on the 1% Elite's propaganda machine.

Hatred of Occupy isnt very open minded and not what I would expect from "liberally minded peoples" posting here in DU.

It appears to me that some among us, those that hate protestors and whistle-blowers, are afraid of poking the 1% Elitist beast.

The revolution is waiting for the spark.

[graham4anything]

182. Hatred of Elijah Cummings and hatred of John Lewis and Dr. King and and...Three people I love.

Elijah, Martin and John-lovers

Ron and Rand Paul are haters.
David Duke is a hater.

I couldn't tell you who these people with the totalitarist name and the mask worn by a rightwing extremist who blew up buildings in a cartoon comic book based on a rightwing
terrorist who killed and blew up buildings
Who are they?
For all one knows, one knows nothing at all.

Kiddies shed their Halloween Masks at age 11 or 12 at the latest.

Adults run for office and change the system with power that being in office holds.

If these would harness whatever it is they are harnessing and in all districts across America run for office, and some win, that is one more than was yesterday.

It's like George Carlin with Baseball vs. Football
Sit in, sedate, calm, peaceful like a flowing river
occupation-totalitaristic overthrow of something, but what, no one was quite sure,
and how it would be the next day after the overthrow, no one even cared to think about in
advance.

I'll take Baseball for $1000 Alex.

And btw, how would one know if one of those two brothers in Boston seeking fame and fortune weren't under a mask?
(well, actually bad example, being that the two in Boston solely did what they did for
fifteen minutes of fame and headlines, much like the killer of John Lennon

John Lennon, man of peace, who had a BED-In.But there are probably haters of him too.
As he was so hatefully asssasssinated obviously there were.

[rhett o rick]

195. Your rationalizations are apparently your key to happiness. Occupy lives on, long live Occupy. nm

[rhett o rick]

169. And you would have been against the pesky American Revolutionaries. Those pesky protestors.

You would have looked until you found a Ron Paul sign to complete your rationalization.

Occupy isnt perfect, to some they appear as disorganized and dirty, which was a total contrast to the organized police that beat the crap out of them. Some prefer the security of the police state. They embrace the Patriot Act, domestic surveillance, and a president that has the power to arrest and detain without due process.

The ruling Elite doesnt like Occupy, in fact they are terrified of them. That's why they responded with terror tactics. It was necessary to teach the 99% that they needed to fall in line. Continue the pseudo democratic process where they get the choice of a good cop or bad cop. Some hate Occupy because it made the 1% Elite rulers mad and we cant have that. Good thing our founders didnt have that attitude.

The 99% is made up of a lot of various peoples and we need to unite to fight the ruling 1% Elite that is crushing us.

[Tarheel_Dem]

224. Can I just say that you probably have the most appropriate screenname here.

As for the 99%, there are tons of us. As for Occupy, not so much. At its core, Occupy is a bunch of disgruntled white folks, with a few specks of color thrown in for show. Most of whom are wide eyed, college aged anti authoritarian, anarchist wannabes with more time on their hands than common sense, and the rest are 60's holdovers trying to relive their wasted youth.

Occupy could have & should have been a force for change. Instead, when the noise died down, they were no different than the teanutters, and public opinion eventually backed that up. As for your inept comparison of Occupy to this country's founders, it's obvious you have a bright future in comedy.

[rhett o rick]

238. You dont like Occupy because you think they are dirty hippies just like my right-wing brother in law

Yet they are willing to put their lives on the line for freedom. You dont want to upset the Ruling Elite so you side with the police as they shoot teargas grenades into the heads of protestors.

I see you still have to resort to ridicule. Just cant help it can you.

[Tarheel_Dem]

242. Let's try this again, and since English obviously isn't your primary language.....

joder ocupar? baiser occuper? ficken besetzen? scopare occupare? foda ocupar? For english speakers it still translates to Fuck Occupy! And I'm out.

[rhett o rick]

243. Hatred is not becoming to a "politically liberal person." Those that support the 1% will eventually

find out that they will toss you aside.

Ridicule is a tool of the bully.

[sabrina 1]

274. That of course is not even close to the facts. But I am glad I am here to present you with the facts

Right wingers of course did try to use Rep. Lewis, a man far too smart to be used by anyone, by claiming what you just posted.

Here are the facts. Rep Lewis was an early supporter and still is, of OWS. He did NOT request to speak at the GA, but WAS invited to speak during the public speaker section. He had to refuse as he had other appointments and had simply come to show his support.

Many of the people there when they realized he could not stay for that part of the protest, suggested that he be asked to 'jump the line'. He was welcomed, applauded, INVITED to speak which he turned down due to other engagements, and understood the decision not to interrupt the GA process, which he commented on later when asked about that decision:

Rep. Lewis told reporters he wasn’t insulted, that he related to the Occupy Atlanta protesters, and that their consensus-oriented process was “grassroots democracy at its best.”

Maybe you should have more respect for a Civil Rights hero like Lewis than to spread the false story circulated by right wing anti Social Justice movements basically to try to use him so disrespectfully for political purposes.

Lewis spoke for himself on that incident, praising OWS and as already stated, calling the General Assembly policy 'Grass Roots Activism at its best'. I have no reason to believe HE was lying, do you??

[Tarheel_Dem]

276. Another "Vast Rightwing Conspiracy"? That all you got? LINK? LINK? LINK? LINK?

[sabrina 1]

277. You got a link?? I didn't see any, mainly because any link telling that lie would be from a right

wing, Wall St. corruption supporting source. Try Fox.

I gave you Rep. Lewis' own statement AND the facts. I see you do not appear to respect him enough to apologize for ignoring his own words on the subject. As I said, your comments re OWS are always encouraging to me regarding the huge impact OWS has had. For someone who considers them irrelevant, you sure spend a lot of time thinking and talking about them. That alone demonstrates the impact they have had, so once again, thank you for your endorsement of one of the most important Social Justice movements in recent times, praised by Rep. Lewis among other respected Democrats.

Can't say I've seen any Republicans praise them the way Rep. Lewis has. But then no one expected that being the R Party is the Party of Wall St.

[Tarheel_Dem]

278. It's not Rep. Lewis that I don't trust, but I think you know that. LINK? LINK? LINK? LINK?

[sabrina 1]

279. What? No link from you? I know the story you told is not hard to find on the internet. So why no

link? Lol, I was waiting for you to provide something, some credible source that would prove me wrong on Rep. Lewis's own words but in a way, that was wrong of me. There IS no credible source to back up your claims.

And now for the facts you so distorted, from Rep. Lewis to one of several reporters he spoke to after his Atlanta visit to OWS. HIS story hasn't changed so I will go with this man whose integrity cannot be questioned rather than the ridiculous nonsense you are regurgitating without a single link from any credible source to back you up. You can thank me later:


Some Democrats Praise, Republicans Slam OWS

Yes, Republicans totally agree with you re OWS. But as the article demonstrates, some prominent Dems, notably Rep. Lewis, publicly support OWS and here is Rep. Lewis addressing the the subject of the Atlanta visit he made to OWS and why he did so:

Rep. John Lewis, D-Georgia, who visited a protest Saturday in Atlanta, told CNN Sunday that the protesters "want to be heard."

"And at the same time they want to speak to America, speak to people in power, to officials of the American government but also to the business community, especially Wall Street, to corporate America, to bankers. They're saying, in effect, that we bailed out Wall Street and now it's time for Wall Street and corporate America to help bail out the American people.

"People are hurting. They're in pain and they're looking for jobs. They want us to humanize the American government but also humanize corporate America."

Lewis said he visited the rally near his Atlanta office "to lend my support and to encourage the people because I support their efforts all across America." He was unable to speak to the crowd, he said, but not because he was refused. Lewis said the group told him he could speak after they finished their business, but that he had to leave.

I gave you plenty of opportunity to do a little research yourself, but clearly you do not want to hear from Rep. Lewis himself, not something that was ever hard to find.

Nor is the false story you presented here hard to find. But as I said, not from any credible source.

Now go argue with Rep. Lewis, others have tried, but his own words tell the truth which for some reason you seem so reluctant to accept.

[Tarheel_Dem]

280. That article doesn't address the "booing", but I suspect you knew that when you posted it.

I said to you earlier, please don't try to pass off links that have nothing to do with the issue at hand. I specifically asked you to address the booing of Rep. Lewis by OWS assholes. But thanks, anyhoo!

Forgot to add: Fuck Occupy!!!!!

[sabrina 1]

281. The fake issue you raised has been settled with links, with Rep. Lewis' own account

of his wonderful visit to OWS which you completely distorted. So now that your false story has been thoroughly debunked, something I have done many times before, so I was waiting, and got the same old garbage that came from Faux et al which is why you provided no links, you are trying to shift the story.

So now, and this was so predictable, you have attempted to shift the goal posts and to to the 'other' false story, the old 'booing' story. I could, and if I am in the mood later I might, debunk that one also, but when someone has so totally destroyed their credibility, I feel no need to bother wasting any more time. I'm certain DUers are intelligent enough to read through this exchange and see for themselves what is going on here.

Thank YOU OWS for the huge impact you all have had on shifting the conversation, changing the discussion and to your friend and supporter, Rep. John Lewis who, as we might have expected, has the political courage to openly and publicly support you all.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

171. x2

[Bluenorthwest]

230. But why? Here's what Occupy has been doing in my town. I've shown you this before. Here's video

[MannyGoldstein]

131. All of Occupy? That's a rather large task.

And why, pray tell, would we want to? They were the most successful movement in 30 years who represented the 99%. Which isn't saying much, of course, but it's something.

[graham4anything]

239. Ronald Reagan helped the 99%?

[MannyGoldstein]

240. Did I say that?

Well, he certainly dealt with a major recession correctly, getting out of it through massive govnment spending. So in that regard, he was far more helpful to he 99% than the current President who's still fetishizing Hooverian policies.

But, on whole, I'd have to say he was pretty unhelpful.

Where did I say he was helpful.

[graham4anything]

247. you said in 30 years. 2013 minus 30 years is 1983...in the heart of Reaganlandia

could it be you were thinking that a certain someonederwoman might have voted for a certain someonederman?

while I am talking to you-you do realize that tearing down Obama and Hillary tears down your certain someone too you know.
stop and think about it.
empower the other side and there is no this side or that side, just the other side

because while you actually want a democratic candidate to win (according to your own words, not all of everyone who reads you does...many in the outside world, as witness by a different thread point I made elsewhere(or was it here?)
Just because someone doesn't like X, doesn't mean that person likes Y.They may dislike
x and y equal. But they are only referring to one at that particular moment.

But maybe you meant 1977,1978,and the first half of 1979? which would be 35 years not 30.
Those 2 1/2 years were the happiest of any 2 1/2 years in American history for the entire country.

btw3 (I do meander sometimes)- Someone else btw made an interesting point-(not me)
what do Mike Dukakis, Mitt Romney, Ted Kennedy, Paul Tsongas, and John Kerry all have in common? and that being the case, wouldn't it scare off the democratic party from the two others that might be added to the list?

And pray for Markey to limp home first over the finish line.
He is the poster person most in the house have bigger egos than fan bases
That poll when he entered the race said it all- noone hardly even knew who he was,
despite decades in HIS district, those outside it never heard of him.
Local politics is local and doesn't travel far.
People don't know past their own block
It's few and far between who people know
(and I would bet you 25% of the public in 2000 who actually wanted to vote for Bush,
thought they were voting for Poppy Bush and not W. Wonder if there were any polls at the time? A Bush-a bush after all, and people (why I don't know, Love Poppy).

[rhett o rick]

263. What an argument. If we dont like your candidate we are "empowering" the other side. That argument

got us George W. Bush the DimSon.

[graham4anything]

270. loose lips sink ships. Old slogans grandma used to say usually had basis in fact.

Using the W meme in a country that is far older makes no sense

protest votes got us Nixon, got us Ford, got us Reagan, got us 41 43 and could get us Jeb

any vote NOT for the democratic party is against the democratic party

[rhett o rick]

196. You pay your taxes and behave yourself and hope that the Ruling Elite will be nice to you. nm

[Bluenorthwest]

229. Wow, such open contempt for helping the poor and those in need. Fuck Free Medical care?

Sounds like what a Republican would say. 'Free medical care, fuck them, I pay my taxes'.

What you scoff at and hold in contempt:

Free Medical Clinic
When:
Weekly on Sunday, forever
Park Blocks, downtown Eugene
Oak St & E 8th Ave
Eugene,OR 97401
USA
Cost:
Free
Contact:
Sue SierralupeE-mail

Sundays, Noon -4pm: Downtown Park Blocks, corner of 8th & Oak. Dr. Knowlton, Dr. Howison, and Dr. St. Louis attending. A Spanish interpreter is available upon request.

A dental hygienist is available for basic and preventative care.

Dr. Howison is a family physician with special interests in developing preventive health strategies for patients, holistic remedies, nutrition, obstetrics and pediatrics.

Dr. Knowlton is a family physician who has been practicing medicine in the Eugene area since 1997. He was the medical director of the clinic providing health care for the Makah Nation in Neah Bay, Washington from 1993 – 1997.

All are welcome, no charge. No appointments; first come, first served. If you have any medical conditions, concerns or questions, please come by. Let’s all do what we can to make our Occupy Eugene environment as healthy and safe as possible.

http://occupyeugenemedia.org/ai1ec_event/free-medical-clinic-2/?instance_id=

And you say 'fuck them'. Let everyone see that. I find you calloused attitude to be chilling.

Edited to add a link, how YOU can start free clinic. I don't mean you Tarheel, as you do not approve of such things, but others might care to help their neighbors.
http://meded.ucsd.edu/freeclinic/start-free-clinic.php

[Tarheel_Dem]

231. My contempt, as you call it, isn't for the concept of Occupy, it's the participants.

I saw the ugliness. People helping people, anytime, is admirable, but under the banner of Occupy, it's tainted for many of us. I realize that the open hostility shown to one of the black community's most treasured civil rights advocates is a non-issue for a lot of you, but it's a total nonstarter for me.

Oh, and I won't bother to open any of your links, because I could give a fuck about Occupy, or what they're engaged in, but thanks anyhoo! Say hi to Ron Paul for us.

[Bluenorthwest]

232. Fuck Ron Paul. What a shitty and unfounded slander that is. Just because you are here spitting at

people doing good. I hate Ron Paul. Cheap and inaccurate slams don't make up for your disregard for those in need and your contempt for those who help them. Does it make you feel better to fling random unsupported poo at others? Because I support people who are helping the needy in my own damn city? That's why you spit 'Ron Paul' at me? That bigot is a hateful homophobe. Is this how your parents raised you to speak to others?
You'd rather see these people go without care, to prove some point? Seriously?

[Tarheel_Dem]

234. Your ASSumption is that I don't care about people being helped is inaccurate, to say....

the very least, but that's your MO, which is why you only came off ignore after the election. Perhaps others give a shit about you and Occupy, but I'm not one of them.

There are plenty of reputable organizations doing good, who have absolutely nothing to do with some made up organization, which includes bigots of all stripes. If Occupy is making a difference, good for them, but in the minds of some people, the Tea Party is a force for good as well. Again, I'm not one of them.

[sabrina 1]

284. You're very much in the minority here, so your 'giving a shit' or not about credible, honest DUers

who have earned the respect of the majority of Democrats on this forum, hardly matters at all, except as an endorsement of those you attack. I have tried to tell you this before. Your personal attacks on democrats here merely enhance their reputations. Have you ever wondered why that might be?

[Fumesucker]

122. Congress hasn't changed much in the last century or so..

"I never can think of Judas Iscariot without losing my temper. To my mind Judas Iscariot was nothing but a low, mean, premature, Congressman" -Mark Twain

[LeftInTX]

116. But they're in power - LOL

[JustAnotherGen]

69. Not off topic - but bear with me

I read DU for many years prior to joining in August 2007. As an outside observer - I was thrilled by two things:

The focus on winning - and nothing less than winning big in 2008.
The focus on the the Democratic House (2006) and getting them to do our will as Democrats.

Here's why I feel a bit unwelcome:

I could care less who is running in 2016.

We are so nitpicky about what is in front of us right now - that we throw up our hands and state:

Let's not be activists. Let's not do to the Democratic Senate what the TEA Party does to the House Republicans. Let's just stay as a 'site' in a State of Perpetual Election Anxiety.

Anyone who challenges one of these 'Elections all the time' folks? Pretty much patted on the head and sent along our way.

Heaven forbid we want to do WHAT we can with the House, Senate and WH that we HAVE TODAY.

Heaven forbid we focus on our leftist roots and make that difference - instead of worrying about what might, maybe happen, sometime in 2016 or 2020.

Heaven forbid doing the right thing now - could lead to I dunno - Chelsea Clinton losing in 2040.

[LuvNewcastle]

111. ^^^^This^^^

It seems like nobody wants to talk about what we're doing now. It's all about GOTV in 2014 and who's going to be the candidate in 2016. It reminds me of fundies who ignore what's going on in their shitty lives today because all their concerned about is where they're going when they die. Pie in the sky by and by. The philosophy is that we must have everything just so before we can act and then we'll ram through some agenda that hasn't been discussed because all we've been talking about is elections. Does anyone else not see the madness in this?

[byeya]

71. Stay! Anyone who selects a user name from one of Charlie Parker's most famous songs needs

to stay and add class to the forums.

[felix_numinous]

72. K&R The 'Big (Democratic) Tent'

has been stretched beyond recognition. In the hopes of being inclusive, our tent now has holes and tunnels dug under it...and has logos all over it.

I agree, strengthening ourselves on local levels is a great idea.

Peace~~Felix

[blackspade]

74. Oh, a bunch of us noticed.

Especially when the moderate republicans took over the party and started shilling for the corporations.

[patrice]

76. Perhaps too often our attention, when we say "Democratic Party", is focused TOO high up.

You have heard of the "inverted pyramid"?

To me, the revolution consists of one at a time relationships in which the people bring the message of freedom and integrity to one another. THAT kind of behavior is the real revolution.

So much, practically exclusive, focus on the tip of the power-structure is truly and profoundly just another iteration of the same mechanism that enslaved us in the first place.

I'm not saying to ignore the high up power positions, just that nothing is going to change until the people change themselves and live an active ongoing non-violent STRONG revolution together, all day, every day, amongst ourselves, let's not wait!, and fuck the "big hats", someday they will wake up and find themselves re-defined by us.

[BelgianMadCow]

138. Great post. I've stopped hoping for change "from above"

and am trying to stop being mad. I will still try and spread info around, since it's still so sorely needed.
I will still protest, since it still has some influence.

But all of that was, for me, against something, and making noise so other people woulddo the right thing. It's essentially negative energy. And it seems rather clear to me now that expecting our "leaders" to come up with solutions for the 99% is a waste of time.

But the majority of my time I want to spend positively, "being" the alternative.
Not watching teevee. Living frugal. Consume as little as possible and try to be sensitive about how I spend and who gets my money. Spending time in the real world, re-valuing family. Trying to get a cooperative bank started. I guess in a way it's withdrawing all the practical support for "the system" that I can, and investing in another way of doing things.

And I have to wait or hope for nobody, and ask nobody's permission.

[patrice]

145. I like what you are saying about being more positive in our actions, especially in what we say about

what/why/how we're doing or saying whatever about problems, NOT lying about what problems really are, but being more constructive and "vision" oriented in discovering what to do together and how to do it, in order to affect problems . . . and honor small CONSTRUCTIVE behaviors, both individual and with or for others.

And I like what you are saying about not having to wait for permission. Owning ourselves includes small casual impromptu creative opportunities all of the way up to seeking constructive collaboration in whatever accountable and productive manner that presents itself. My daughter tells me this works if you trust and follow your heart more, you'll come to others who are doing the same, so honesty will be more acceptable. To me one of the best things that can guide those kinds of efforts is about valuing and focusing on behavior, instead of leaps to judgements based on abstractions and unknowns. "Concretizing" constructive revolutionary values and principles in positively mindful behaviors is where real change starts.

[patrice]

79. How? Find a relatively worthy "low-level" Democratic candidate who will collaborate with you and DO

the work of their campaign. Even a small candidate that most are saying doesn't have a chance is a good experience. The idea is to SHOW that you can and will do the work to get an office, so all you really have to do is to do well enough to show significantly better than the party "strategists" expect you and your candidate to do.

Democracy for America has a great campaign school. You can do as much or as little as you choose, but a lot of the most basic work is done in the canvass. Canvassing is something the Democratic party SHOULD do at least bi-annually. Canvassing can be a truly positive human experience. It is a good way to show your commitment and if you can add something like several hundred or more votes to projected totals in a district, you WILL establish ground for your voice in local party relationships and if they still ignore you, call them out on it, in specific detail, and politely.

[patrice]

80. Bettter yet, run for office yourself. Get your peeps, organize, DO the work and if you can make a

better than expected showing, that means something significant to the party.

[IrishAyes]

83. Did anyone notice?

I've noticed equally belligerent verbiage from both left and (snicker) 'right' wings of our Party. But I don't think there can be a 'civil discussion' about something that HASN'T HAPPENED. A few firebrands would accuse the Party of disloyalty just for speaking to the GOP. Granted, I'd want to shower in lye afterwards, but the necessary negotiations do not constitute abandonment or disloyalty. The very best negotiations involve helping the GOP to tighten their circular firing squads without forming one of our own!

[Bobbie Jo]

103. But you see...

I, for one, refuse to be placed on the "right wing" of anything just because I disagree with the systematic and all-encompassing bashing that goes on here by a horde of self appointed "progressive saints."

The tinfoilery that passes for criticism is ridiculous. I've never been accused of expressing a RW stance in my life, and I'm not about to thrown into that bullshit corner now, or ever.

[zappaman]

112. Well said!

So tired of these "self appointed progressive saints."
I have voted Democratic all my life and sorry if the saints don't like it.

[IrishAyes]

140. Well, I'm not familiar with everyone's individual situation

Although I've had my own self description of Far Left called into question because of my general support for and appreciation of President Obama, whom so many keep insisting is a 'liberal Republican' under the skin and not 'really' a Democrat at all. So I have some sympathy from first hand experience. A lot of this inter-party bashing might be childish behavior like calling someone a sissy, because people are people no matter what party they claim.

What's saddest is how the woods are full of trolls paid by the other side to stir up as much trouble as possible. Keep that in mind. We ALL need to keep that in mind.

[kentuck]

97. Keep fighting.

The worst thing we can do is give up to these DLC'er and compromisers. Leave it to them and we will have no Party..

[patrice]

102. 1+++

[L0oniX]

203. +100 million. n/t

[rhett o rick]

106. We are engaged in a war between the 1% and the 99%. The 1% totally owns the Republican Party.

And whether by design or not that party has gone totally radical. This drove a lot of the conservatives into the Democratic Party. And they brought their conservative values with them and they are influencing legislation.

Pres Obama, in a brilliant move, abandoned the left after the 2008 election and started to woo the new conservative Democrats. Almost every appointment has been a conservative. This was brilliant because it closed out the wacko party and he didnt really need the left since they had no place to go. "Would you rather have Mittens" was the challenge to the left, instead of "I will work to save Social Security".

It's insane to think that the wealthy 1% hasnt figured out not to put all their eggs in the Wacko basket. They own a good number of Democrats.

But if you have been paying attention, you will have noticed that when you want to enhance background checks, some Democrats vote as if they are a Republican. They wont change the filibuster rule because some Democrats LIKE THE FILIBUSTER. It gets them off the hook.

So when people say that we need to elect more Democrats, sure that would be easy peasy, but it's wrong. We need more "true" Democrats that vote for Democratic values, and less Conservative Democrats that vote like a Republican.

[NorthCarolina]

110. That would take $$Money$$

Lots, and lots, of $$money$$.

[Junkdrawer]

114. Has KoKo posted anywhere else since the first few responses to this thread?

[rhett o rick]

123. Yes, why do you ask? nm

[Junkdrawer]

128. KoKo seems to me the type who would walk away without a GBCW post...

Don't want to lose KoKo

[KoKo]

133. I'm here...but saw the post was alerted on and some DU'ers were sorry that it's still here...

so I was reading to see if anyone understood what I was posting about. And some did...and others didn't. So, didn't see a need to keep replying after how I'd already replied before a poster said that the Hosts of this Forum did a split vote on whether my post was "Whining about DU."

So...I'm reading it...but, what else can I say? And, no...this wasn't a "Goodbye" post. When and If... I leave DU no one will ever know it. It would be my decision and not that anyone would need to be alerted about it or why.

[Junkdrawer]

135. So...the million dollar question is: Was "Trickle Dow." a typo or a pun?

Inquiring minds want to know.



PS: Glad your still here

[KoKo]

209. It was a Typo....but, it turned out kind of funny, really...so I didn't edit.

and thanks.

[Junkdrawer]

214. As has been said: Best Typo Ever.....

Don't be surprised if it seeps into wider use. From time-to-time DU will do that: Come up with a meme that, weeks or months later, make it into the mainstream.

Somone reads it here, then it's picked up by a blog that is picked up by....and comes out here.

Or, as South Park says:

Step 1: Steal Underpants

Step 2:

Step 3: Profit

[L0oniX]

205. The covert alert crew is nothing but a bunch of blog bully wannabees. They do not make DU better.

[rhett o rick]

147. I so agree with you. "Dont want to lose KoKo." nm

[Tarheel_Dem]

129. You feel unwelcome? Gee, I wonder why? You guys absolutely rule DU. Of course, nobody much gives

a hoot once you log off. But just because no one wants you guys on their teevee, or their radio, or in their public parks, doesn't mean you don't ROCK DU!

Funny, I have this feeling that the Democratic Party didn't actually have to leave you, if you catch my drift.

[rhett o rick]

148. I catch your drift. Viva la Corporations. Long live the 1%. And you hope dearly that they will

tinkle down on you.

The Democratic Party that represents the 99% will once again arise and kick the sorry asses of the conservatives out.

Those that will sacrifice Social Security and Medicare to appease their corporate gods.

[Tarheel_Dem]

151. OMG! You swallowed an Occupy manifesto. Say hi to Jill & Rocky for me!

[Bluenorthwest]

233. Tomorrow is the weekly Occupy Free Clinic in my city! Swallow that!

What you oppose:

[Tarheel_Dem]

235. Organizations like Remote Area Medical have been delivering free health care for....

decades, the only difference is they don't rush into a disaster for branding purposes. Occupy was shameless in its efforts to initially brand Sandy relief as an Occupy endeavor. Do the work, and STFU should be the goal, not grandstanding. You can post as many links & videos as you like, but it doesn't change my opinion of Occupy or its participants. It's a shameless "organization", with a shameful "membership", who have done some good things, and some abhorrent things, for somewhat suspect reasons.

[ucrdem]

246. Agreed. Occupy is a strange beast. For example "Oct. 16-Dec. 22," 2011,

the period of activity mentioned in the video, happens to include Nov. 8, just like the Occupy 2010 happened to include Nov. 2, a very bad day for Democrats. So why is it that for two years running, including the year Dems lost the House, "Occupy" leaps into existence a few weeks before the November elections and fades away a few weeks after? And that's just one mystery.


Here's another: try googling Occupy and see if you can find any mention of their 2010 activities. It isn't easy. All the top pages are hooked to wiki which is hooked to OWS which claims it started in September 2011:

"Occupy Wall Street is a people-powered movement that began on September 17, 2011"

http://occupywallst.org/about/

Looks like Occupy's role in that 2010 election went right down the memory hole.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

249. Occupy "faded away" only from the mass media

Here in the Twin Cities, it is concentrating on defending people from illegal foreclosures.

Don't confuse either the media or Beltway think tank conventional "wisdom" with reality.

[Tarheel_Dem]

255. Occupy was a tool "movement" that alienated the people they should've been trying.....

to woo. Their insistence that they weren't a political movement was confusing, to say the least, and questions began to surface re: WTF did they want? Many of us came away with the impression that they just wanted to smoke dope, bang bongos, and have sex in a public park, which Tom Hartmann used to classify as a Libertarian. The saying went something like Libertarians are just Republicans who wanna smoke dope & get laid.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, I've seen more interesting "movements" in commode than Occupy.

[sabrina 1]

269. That's funny, that 'smoke dope' thing. Saw that on Right Wing forums all the time re

OWS. They really hate that movement. Which is why we knew it was so effective. And is now worldwide and growing.

Your 'endorsement' of OWS gives me more hope for that movement than you could imagine. So thank you!

You can tell so much about a person or a movement by its enemies. I am more than pleased with the 'enemies' of OWS.

[Tarheel_Dem]

271. I wouldn't know, I don't visit "Right Wing Forums", I'll leave that to you, BBI, & emilyg.

You are prone to making bold statements that can't be backed up, which is one reason you were on ignore, and thanks for the reminder, btw. I'll take your sweeping statement that OWS "is now worldwide and growing" with the same HUGE grain of salt that I took your statement that Kucinich was wildly popular in Europe. Just as most of your bold declarations, you never provided anything in the way of scientific proof of that statement either. Unless you polled his wife's family, I don't know how you could make such a statement with a straight face. I find it difficult to believe that a Congressman, from a single district, out of more than 400 is even on anybody's radar in Europe.

If OWS is growing, it certainly isn't in this country because the people who drove that "organization" have the attention span of a fruit fly. Maybe it's all the ?

As for the "enemies of OWS", let me just say that I wasn't until the shameful day your "organization" booed John Lewis, who was only there to lend his support. I felt the same disgust for you and yours as I did for the teabaggers who spat on him as he walked the gauntlet to the Congressional Chamber. Yes, I hate Occupy, and despite all your claims to the contrary, this impotent and nearly defunct "movement" can go straight to hell. Hope that makes my position crystal clear!

Fuck Occupy!

[sabrina 1]

272. Oh I can back it up. I can post from right wingers, your words almost exactly re OWS.

Which is why I know how successful OWS has been and continues to be, here and around the world. I use right wing talking points and always have, as a gauge of how successful any Social Justice movement is or is not.

You're trying too hard, OWS is stronger than ever, its victories in the courts are outstanding, its taking on of student debt so successfully, is teaching the country just how dysfunctional Congress has been in dealing with that particular crime against the people.

It's handling of disasters, of foreclosures and its huge success in these areas also has been giving hope to millions that simply because Congress has failed the people in all these areas doesn't mean something cannot be done about them.

And in Europe, Australia, S. America, Asia and Africa a solidarity globally among the people is now, for the first time, becoming a reality.

THANK YOU OWS! Lol, you just can't fight it try as I know you will. So predictable. As I said, your comments always confirm for me the success of this Global Social Justice movment. So thank you.

[Tarheel_Dem]

273. Link? And this time, make sure the links are actually related to the subject at hand. You have a..

tendency not to do that. Lots of sound & fury....well, you know the rest. From past experience, I don't take anything you say at face value. You Better Believe It!

[KoKo]

283. Are you the formerly known DU'er..."Better Believe It?" I remember a poster by that

name from early DU Days. Although I don't remember that poster being quite so ...well...
whatever, at that time..

I've not seen You give Links to dispute information you don't agree with, though. Why is that? You ask others to give what you are not willing to give yourself?

Again...where are YOUR LINKS? Inquiring Minds like to see counterpoint from Accusers to validate their viewpoints.

[KoKo]

282. Something to be said about that which you say:

You can tell so much about a person or a movement by its enemies. I am more than pleased with the 'enemies' of OWS.

Just today I saw a long time DU'er whose never been involved in controversy...called a "Conspiracy Theorist." The poster who accused her listed three of her posts as "CT" and said the latest one was "CT" also.

I'm way to the left of this DU Poster but, have never found anything she ever posted as "CT" and she was a huge John Kerry supporter and a well-informed DU'er.

It was surprising and disgusting to see her attacked by another DU'er as "CT" without regard or even reading her posts for attribution and totally disregarding the creds of the article and writer of the posts she linked.

Even though she and I have gone at each other over the years here on DU...we always respected each other and neither She Nor I ever called each other a "CT."

That was bad stuff to see here.

[xchrom]

132. Du rec. Nt

[yoyossarian]

144. Never forget!

My old site is still out there, archived for posterity...
I do all I can, but it's harder for me to devote the time these days.
But I do all I can... and keep trying to remind people that we have
to keep trying, whatever the odds.
Where there's life and breath, there's ALWAYS hope.
After that, well... I'm sure it won't frustrate me as much as it does now, once I'm gone.
SOOOO much damage... it's hard to tell if even FDR could do anything about it now.
What is one to do? Keep going... just keep going.
We crutch along! Hi ho!

[KoKo]

210. Incredible Graphic...and remembering what it was and how hard we fought to change it!

And yes:

What you say:

But I do all I can... and keep trying to remind people that we have
to keep trying, whatever the odds.
Where there's life and breath, there's ALWAYS hope.
After that, well... I'm sure it won't frustrate me as much as it does now, once I'm gone.
SOOOO much damage... it's hard to tell if even FDR could do anything about it now.
What is one to do? Keep going... just keep going.
We crutch along! Hi ho!

[mia]

156. If you feel unwelcomed by someone, don't allow them to take up space in your thoughts.

Don't be a doormat for bullies. You and those who are also looking for solutions have more important things to do.

[denbot]

160. We just keep on choogling there KoKo!

BTW

[LostOne4Ever]

167. I have only been here for about 1/2 a month

I have only been here for about 1/2 a month (though I used to lurk back when Double Dumb got selected till Kerry lost) But I have been made to feel extremely welcome one moment, and absolutely hated the next.

I have read thread after thread saying if you believe this or that you are not a "true" liberal, and threads that say the "far fringe left" are destroying the party. I have seen people use the terms Obama-Haters and DINOs thrown around like candy. I have seen threads trying to be constructive, and those whose only purpose is to troll.

It seems like there are some people here who are more interested with scoring points with certain "cliques" here rather than actually having any type of discussion. Otherwise, why the insults? Since when has an insult ever made a person on either side MORE willing to listen to someone? Insults make people cling even tighter to their beliefs. Telling someone they are wrong as opposed to simply mistaken only serves to end the conversation. So why do this?

These people are not interested in facts and when confronted by them blow them off because they dont confirm their pre-determined conclusion. This is true of both sides.

I would think the best way to have a "civil" discussion is to realize there are people of a plethora of political beliefs and views here and that they are all here to discuss what they believe is best for the nation. Specifically, we are all people who for various reasons support the democratic party AND liberalism. We need to to listen (to really listen) to each other and understand where we are coming from and why we believe what we believe. We need to realize we can disagree without calling the other wrong and to tell our views to each other with compassion. And we need to accept that just because someone comes to a different conclusion than us they are not stupid.

I believe that is the best way to foster civil discussion.

As for the 2nd part of your question:

I believe the best way to promote liberalism is to unite behind the democratic party no matter how how much they may disappoint us. To promote democratic nominees so that we can take back the house and senate and elect another dem president in 2016. With that we can do 2 things, get liberal judges appointed to the SCotUS (This is KEY!) giving us all three branches of government and then start pushing for more liberal candidates once we have a stranglehold on the government.

Without the Judiciary on our side, the SCotUS will simply throw out any progress we make. WE HAVE TO GET IT BACK!!! Even FDR knew how important the Judiciary was and fought hard to get it on his side. Once we have all three branches we can start pushing for more liberal legislation and start lobbying for more liberal candidates. By seeing the effects of these policies the rest of the country will realize how they benefit the country as a whole and will then support even more liberal policies. We will then be able to push this country back to the left and pass things like a living wage, a true single payer healthcare system, secure reproductive and equal rights for all, and much more!

The country is changing for the better, and the demographics are now on our side. But we can't do diddly squat if we don't win elections! The last thing we need is for the repugs to get back in power and destroy the political coalition Obama has thrown together. We got to be patient and do what we can to get democratic butts in congress. Every time a repug gets a seat that slows things down even further.

I don't expect you to agree with me. But that is how I believe we can move the party to the left. That is how I believe we can take back the country.

[ucrdem]

168. That's beautifully put.

Thanks for a great post and welcome to DU! I was about to post something similar but you've said it much better.

So to KoKo I'll just add, hang in there, and don't believe 99% of the crap you hear and read about Dems, here or elsewhere. The RW rules the airwaves with FOX and CNN of course but also with those nominally "left" shows that, when the cards are down, push RW talking points. I'm thinking of Maher's Benghazi episode whichI just watched following a link from the Greenwald thread. It looks vaguely left but it's pure RW propaganda, and stacked 3 against 1. So try not to let that type of stuff get you down.

[KoKo]

211. I posted this because I hoped for folks to DISCUSS...and air some of the problems

that have been festering and now are breaking out.

I hope you can understand that "Electing More and Better Democrats" has not worked out for us long term activists. But, I'm open to your response. It's just that I and some others feel that the sentiment isn't working anymore.

So, it's up for discussion as how our Party Moves forward...after Obama.

Thanks for your views Others of us differ...but, it's all under the Democratic Party Logo..that we differ in approach.

I am a Democrat because of the "Big Tent".....but, when the tent gets so tight that it excludes some who belong in there...it's time for a "Speak Up."

[LostOne4Ever]

248. Been trying to think of a good reply

Sorry for the delay in replying. I keep on trying to make a well thought out reply to your post and either feel like its a repeat of my previous post, comes off as either preaching, or just sounds condescending when all I want to do is try and show that I do hear what you have been saying.

With that in mind, please allow me to say this, I believe I understand where you are coming from. You feel like you busted your ass for the democratic party for a long time and not only has there been very little progress, but it feels like the party goes out of its way to appease the opposition rather than to fight on behalf of its supporters. They do this to the point you feel that the democratic party doesn't care for or even like your opinions. You feel like that one relative at the family reunion everyone wished would just leave.

Am I close to the mark? I want to make sure I understand where you are coming from as I really do believe listening to each other is important.

If I am correct, let me say that I believe it is your party as much as its mine, or Obama's, or Kucinich's, or anyone's and I do believe you have a right to speak up. In fact, I believe that listening to each other is the best way to create positive change. However, I also believe we have a right to RESPECTFULLY disagree, and if we believe such criticism goes to far or if it becomes harmful to our ultimate goals we also have the right to make that clear as well. I don't think one should take such disagreement to mean one is not welcome in the democratic party.

Yes, we differ drastically in approach, as can be seen from your OP and my previous reply; but, I don't believe we differ that much in our ultimate goals. I think we should try out best realize that and make sure we all feel welcome

In closing, let me apologize for being so very long winded, and allow me to thank you for the thoughtful reply and thread. We might not come to an ultimate agreement but we can always be accepting of one another.

[Number23]

220. Another fabulous post from you. You've blown the OP's "point" wide open

As have a shitload of responses in this thread.

Some love to claim that they are being "bullied" and "silenced" when a 12 second perusal of this forum will show you EXACTLY who is doing the bullying. The insults are flung so fast and loose from some here, and then these same folks five minutes later will be wondering why NO ONE LISTENS TO THEM. And especially not those in power.

As for your "scoring points" part, you are absolutely right. The recs are the game here, but the post from Yavin4 a week or so ago asking forthrightly why the American left has had so little success in getting progressives in office elicited far more intelligent responses than this whining OP although, shockingly!! ( ) the whining one is the one with the higher number of recs.

And we need to accept that just because someone comes to a different conclusion than us they are not stupid.

Not stupid, not evil and most importantly, may not even be WRONG. There is a reason that moderates run the world. And the folks flinging "Third Way" and "corporatist" at everyone from their dilapidated towers of dust prove that every single day.

The country is changing for the better, and the demographics are now on our side. But we can't do diddly squat if we don't win elections!

[LostOne4Ever]

245. Thank you

I have really enjoyed your posts in the threads we have both been involved with. I find your posts to be incredibly well thought out and reasoned.

Personally, I just wish I could be less wordy and more succinct in my "soapbox" posts.

[Number23]

268. Well the OP got what she wanted, I think. A thread full of bullshit

Name calling, arguments, someone actually posting Fuck you to another poster. And the ones doing all of that are the ones crying that they are being "bullied" and that people will play tricks to get them tombstoned. It's no wonder so many have left.

Which is why I feel that the post from Yavin4 is the one to read if anyone is really interested in this issue. http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022802736 It didn't get the recs, but it got the intelligent, thoughtful answers.

It wasn't always this way. Welcome to DU, LostOne4Ever. The place truly is a shell of its former self.

[MjolnirTime]

180. You've been hating Obama since 2008. It was you who left the Democratic Party.

[L0oniX]

206. Stalk much? n/t

[Jamastiene]

207. I don't know, KoKo.

K&R for asking though.

I really would like to see our party have a sincere discussion on how to move the center back to the center and move our party back to at least slightly left of center. Even slightly left of center seems almost impossible right about now. So many in our party *say* things that sound left of center, but *do* the exact opposite when it comes time to pass laws.

[KoKo]

212. Much Thanks...for understanding why I was asking..

and not trashing my post or me or others who replied. There's been much on this board that is worrisome for those of us who do want a Democratic Community where we can discuss our differences. It's not been going well lately since we don't have the Bush "common enemy" that many posters above in this thread have posted about.

There have been good reads in this post, about what some of us are concerned about ...and back and forth. And there's been the usual jeering and making fun...that goes on. But, unless we discuss as Dems on this Board ...just where our Party is going in the future, then what is the point of it? Are we just a mouthpiece for the Party Line...or participating Democrats in whatever way we can to share information...and even to share that some of us want MORE from our Party...Expect more.. and that Some think things are fine as long as we have a Dem President ...but they don't see beyond THIS particular President, and that becomes the whole discussion ...defending this President (who just won a Second Term) rather than trying to get a cohesive message together for the future.

Thanks.

[Junkdrawer]

219. Here's the problem: Lobbyists comb every piece of legislation with a fine tooth comb....

We listen to speeches.

Lobbyists have the money. We have the votes.

Guess how politicians resolve THAT tension?

[DonCoquixote]

208. this goes beyond politics

What has happened is, the same media manipulators have figured out how to manipulate the internet. One why to do that is encourage a lot of abusive internet thugs to act as your goon squad. It does not matter whether it is video games or the fate of the free world, but corporations have been caught paying people to attack people, hiding behind false masks. Am I saying every troll is some paid GOP shill, no. Am I saying enough of them are that we need to scrutinize, yes? There are many who simply flame because flame feels good, it's like the old line about the difference between a hooker and a bimbo being that the Hooker at least knows to get paid, while the bimbo gives it away for Free. For the Feminists, the joke can also work if you use the words "Gigolo" and "dog", heaven knows politics is full of men that deserve far less respect than any streetwalker.

[woo me with science]

227. Yup.

Corporate pockets, and tentacles, run deep. We are incessantly propagandized.

[MH1]

217. Dem Party moved to right because in 2010 Congress moved VASTLY right

due to ... well whatever you think it is due to, that caused republicans to win so many seats in 2010, not just in Congress but in STATE LEGISLATURES WHICH GET TO DO THE REDISTRICTING.

Sorry for the caps, but come on. Like Wellstone was fond of quoting, "politics is the art of the possible". What's possible moves to the right when the voting body moves to the right. Having further-left members of a minority doesn't help when you've given the majority to the wingnuts. And once those wingnuts have redrawn the districts in their party's favor, you have a hell of a climb to get out of that hole you just dug.

You want better democrats? Start with more democrats. Yeah, try to avoid the DINOs but at least get reps who will vote for some of the dem stuff rather than always obstructing. And even with enough DINOs, Dems would have the gavel, which would be an improvement over the current situation.

We need better civic education in this country, too. Then maybe people would vote, and those who vote would vote more effectively.

[SammyWinstonJack]

244. Been here since Feb 2001.

Been through it all. Wish I had an easy answer or any at all.

Seems we are very divided...ponies and 3D chess and all that jazz.............what to be done?

[bluestate10]

251. You can choose to see only your viewpoint and feel sorry for yourself.

Or understand that the democratic party is a large, growing party that encompasses a range of political viewpoints, with the glue that binds is a belief that none of us make it on our own and all of us owe the society that allows us to survive and prosper our loyalty.

[woo me with science]

257. Nope, the takeover was bankrolled by Wall Street.

DLC and the Third Way are not grass roots phenomena by any means. Both parties have been deliberately targeted and purchased by the oligarchy that can afford to buy them. Americans, as a whole, are mad as hell that we have a government that no longer represents us. The one percent own both parties now. Both parties are working aggressively on behalf of their interests, and neither traditional Republicans *nor* traditional Democrats are being represented.

The corporate media machine is ubiquitous. They lie to Republicans about standing for small government and individual liberties, just as they lie to Democrats about standing for social safety nets, public education, and unions. But once election season is over, both pursue the same predatory, profit-mongering direction in war, education, energy, economics, the police state...

It is interesting that you parrot the Third Way talking point of "loyalty." We are increasingly ruled by corporate authoritarians who use this language, instead of the language of public service and representation that is supposed to define a democratic society.

Change has to come from the people, because it is not coming from within this purchased system.

[LWolf]

252. I waited a couple of days

to reply to this thread, to see if there would actually BE a civil discussion. Forgive me. I'm a cynic. I used to be an idealist. That's what happens to us when too many decades of corrupt reality erodes that idealism.

For the record: I noticed. With horror, then with disdain. The Democratic Party has been only too happy to throw me under the bus repeatedly:

I'm a woman
I'm well left of center
I'm a pacifist
I'm a teacher
I'm 53, one of those whose retirement resources have vanished in the economic depression and attacks on SS.
While I can't say that I'm a socialist, I can say that I lean further towards socialism and further away from capitalism every day.

To be honest, I think the Democratic Party is well aware with, and okay with, these changes, and I think the only way to change that is to rip them off the corporate tit permanently. If that's even possible.

Abandoning the party won't work; for every principled D who walks away, a moderate R steps in. As a matter of fact, those centrist Republicans are having a hell of a lot more success deforming the party than "old" Democrats.

Talking to the neoliberal centrists? I don't see them listening. So far, they haven't had to.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

265. I've been here since 2001. The conflicts between the Left and the Father Knows Best wing of the

party have been going on throughout and I expect it will continue. Which makes the place interesting and amusing.

"Differences of opinion are what make horse races." Mark Twian

[GP6971]

286. What were your

previous usernames?