HOW did a generation of young men's brains get f-ed up enough to produce this bigotry about Jolie?

[alp227]

So I heard about Angelina Jolie's double masectomy. Good for her.

However, this story has generated the latest offense in a hyper-sexualized generation of young men who grew up in a toxic mixture of "abstinence only education" (thanks Dim Son) but with also MTV, lad mags, and online porn. Click here for the rest of the offensive tweets; I will reprint just ONE. Be warned: do NOT read if you have eaten within the past half hour:






3...

2...

1...



(after the gallery of offensive remarks is a comment:

"For those of you on Tumblr that are attacking Feminists about being delusional about sexism against women and misogyny here’s your fucking proof that sexism and misogyny exists.&quot

Yep. They got NO empathy for Jolie's health/family concerns. Just her BEEEEEEEEEWBIES and now Brad Pitt doesn't get to have FUHHHHHHN anymore.

Sadly, this kind of "thought" exists even among "good guys"...your co-workers, your brothers, your cousins, your nephews, your friends all of whom you think never were overt bigots...and in your worst nightmares, even your own sons.

I'm one of those millennials referred to in that stupid Time Magazine cover story (how is that sales gimmick working out?) Lemme tell ya, the misogynist & bigoted shit I regularly see on the Seriously, America and [link:publicshaming.tumblr.com|Public Shaming] Tumblr's make me embarrassed to be a man in his lower 20s. And then the ignorant motherfuckers who get their info about feminism and women not from reliable sources but rather lard-brains like the Amazing Atheist and learn to not give a shit about rape...UGH. FUCK. THIS. COUNTRY'S. GOD. DAMN. BIGOTED. CULTURE. MY PARENTS DID NOT IMMIGRATE FROM ASIA TO RAISE A KID IN A NATION OF FUCKING BRAINLESS UNFEELING UNTHINKING SHOWOFF PSEUDO MALES who have nothing in life to show for other than hating women hating women hating women.

America...WHY are our men being raised to disrespect women like this? WHY?

So my message to my fellow DUers who are parents: Read your sons' Twitters and Facebooks. If you see them posting bigotry like I linked to, a couple things you can do: Take away their Internet access and have a very stern talk with them. Seriously. NOW. (Sadly, too many teenage girls think the same way as the bad boys who've eaten too much HFCS and red meat.)

[seabeyond]

1. pornified society of women. this is how the men and boys today see women and girls.

they have been cheered, validated and this is the results. all her worth is her boobs. and these men and boys have every right to say it out loud, as vulgar as they choose. no responsibility. this is it. no more.

[NoPasaran]

4. That's quite a broad brush you have there

You must buy bristles by the yard.

[seabeyond]

6. deny deny deny

[NoPasaran]

8. argle bargle gargle

[Skittles]

22. so you see no problems?

none?

[zerosumgame0005]

80. seeing a problem

is a far far cry from "all MEN are EEEEEEEEE-vil"

[Skittles]

97. show me where it says, "all MEN are EEEEEEEEE-vil"

[zerosumgame0005]

98. where do you see them not?

"pornified society of women. this is how the men and boys today see women and girls.

View profile
they have been cheered, validated and this is the results. all her worth is her boobs. and these men and boys have every right to say it out loud, as vulgar as they choose. no responsibility. this is it. no more."

it does not say some, or all to many or any other detail. So tell me how this does not claim ALL men are "pornified"?

[Skittles]

100. because sexism and misogyny is INGRAINED

to the point where it is accepted as NORMAL - look at movie trailers, video games, etc - PORNIFIED is right on target

where the OP is wrong is insinuating it is a generation - it is MULTI-GENERATIONAL

and believe me, I don't let women completely off the hook for this either

[EOTE]

154. Ahhh, so all men ARE evil.

Thanks for clearing that up. If you want to defend someone against making a broad brush statement, it's best not to make that same broad brush statement again. The great majority of men are nothing like that waste of space mentioned in the OP. Hearing over and over again that we are from you and the poster you defend is doing nothing to win you any converts.

[YoungDemCA]

204. Actually, the point feminists are making is that all men are *not* evil...

"Ingrained" is an adjective that is defined this way:

(of a habit, belief, or attitude) Firmly fixed or established; difficult to change.

Habits, beliefs, and attitudes are not innate; they are learned.

Saying that sexism and misogyny are pervasive in American society is NOT the same thing as saying "all men are evil." Feminists are calling attention to a social problem in the hopes that society can and will change for the better.

Culture and social attitudes can and do change. There's nothing "innate" about sexism, which is why "feminists say that all men are evil" is a disingenuous strawman.

[nomorenomore08]

213. That's exactly what I've been trying to get at.

And as I said to another poster, I don't really believe in collective guilt. But that has nothing to do with my, or anyone else's, potential to be a better human being.

[EOTE]

234. The OP and the post defending it both suggest that this behavior is the "normal".

And if not all men behave like that, certainly the bulk do. That is ridiculous, sexist bullshit. If an equivalent OP was made with the genders reversed, the same hypocrites defending this OP would be shitting bricks.

[Warren DeMontague]

124. The problem is that the internet lets every moron broadcast to the planet in 120 characters.

I honestly don't think we have a greater number of morons than we used to.

They just each have a bigger megaphone.

[maddezmom]

142. Well said

Broad brushing a group due to what some asshat says on twitter is beyond stupid.

[cui bono]

157. Agree to a certain degree. I also think the internet has caused more young men to objectify women.

It's so easy for them to see it happening it seems normal. And I'm talking about hard core stuff, not just how advertising or video games do it. I'm talking about porn and things. It is so easy for someone of any age to get hard core porn and so I'm sure boys see things at an early age that grown men used to not have seen in a lifetime before the ease of the internet arrived.

And then there's all the stupid comments that people post, thinking they're so tough because they're anonymous on the internet.

I feel like we've gone through the era where boys saw their mom's working and respected women more to one where they ahve the interenet and "girls gone wild" and think women are there just as sexual exploits.

Of course there's also the fact that people post things on the internet that they would never say in real life. But I still feel like things have really gone backwards since the arrival of the internet and I agree that there needs to be more conversations about that and other things so that parents are teaching their kids, not some other moronic teens they read comments from online.

[Warren DeMontague]

186. I disagree. I think using the lowest common denominator ugliness on twitter, or, say the comments

on youtube, as indicative of anything, is a mistake.

Like I said, the difference now is that rather than scratching this stuff on the stall of the rest stop, any idiot can have a twitter account and broadcast it to the world.

However, by any actual objective statistical or other measurement yardstick we can find- as opposed to the impressions of people watching rapid technological and cultural change- the culture is getting better, not worse. Look, for instance, at Millennial attitudes- as clearly evidenced by polling and voting patterns- on subjects like LGBT equality and marriage.

I just don't buy the 'culture in crisis' narrative. Not at all.

[Walk away]

229. I have to agree. Most of the men I know feel sympathy for her.

I suppose very immature men or poorly socialized boys act out stupidly. They are just a loud and lewd marginal group that have nowhere else to hang out but the internet.

It wouldn't surprise me to hear that men who admired her for her beauty and body were upset or disturbed by the news. That seems like a normal reaction to me.

[seabeyond]

235. wouldn't surprise me ... men who admired her ... beauty and body were upset or disturbed by the news

"That seems like a normal reaction to me."

ya. po babies... that they are "disturbed" cause after all, they were all that in admiring her beauty and body. you do not get how this is exactly the point and what place is it of any damn man to be fuckin DISTURBED.... because her "beauty and body" may have been marred in some way to fuckin SAVE HER LIFE.

wow.

but then, i guess that is normal for a man to be more bothered cause the beauty and body HE IS ENTITLED to is more important than her life....

the sick of it is so many will not even get how fuckin offensive this is.

[redqueen]

237. Disturbed by the fact that she had an 85% chance of getting breast cancer?

Yeah, decent human beings would be disturbed by that.

Anyone who is disturbed by her decision about her body is a pig and an asshole.

[seabeyond]

240. and for the truly clueless, the "normal" or APPROPRIATE reaction would be

empathy, brave decision, understanding of choice. NOT.... an ownership of her body that her decision should AFFECT them in any way.

[BlueJazz]

95. I must really hang around with the best of men 'cause not one of them ...

....said anything derogatory about her mastectomy.
...only something like "The Lady has some guts to go public like that"
or "She's gonna' have to put up with a lot of shit from assholes"

Those things on facebook are boys..

[Katashi_itto]

82. +10000

[cleanhippie]

94. Well, of course. It's the only one she has.

Same shit, different thread.

[Common Sense Party]

96. "this is how the men and boys today see women" Umm, no it isn't.

It's how one small, verbal, poorly socialized subset of men and boys ruled by their glands see women today.

What percentage of the male population, do you think, have this attitude? 100%? 95%? 90%?

[RudynJack]

111. Exactly this.

There's always been a subset of idiots that treat women like this- I would argue that subset is smaller today than in the past. However these idiots have access to computers.

[Common Sense Party]

121. I don't know if it's smaller or larger. Either way, I doubt it is much different from years gone by.

But you are absolutely right--now every moron and troglodyte now has a keyboard and can publish his stupidity (anonymously, of course) for the whole world to read, so it makes us THINK that there is a significant increase in the jerk ratio.

[Common Sense Party]

149. Would you care to answer? How widespread do you think this attitude is?

What percentage of the male population, do you think, have this attitude?

You seem to imply that we're all this way:

"this is how the men and boys today see women and girls."

[seabeyond]

151. there have been OP after OP of this mentality toward women and girls, on the net, in RL to the point

of girls killing themselves.

i am not gonna educate people that willfully ignore reality that presents itself to women and girls today. you and others want to pretend this is only about jolie and five twitters, nothing i say will leave an impression.

[Common Sense Party]

153. I pretend nothing. I am only asking for your opinion.

You said that this is what men and boys think of women.

You OBVIOUSLY don't believe or mean to say that 100% of males are like this.

Then please clarify: How widespread do you think this is?

[ablamj]

172. More

widespread than it should be...

[Common Sense Party]

178. Definitely. One jerk like that is too many.

But the jerks are still in the minority. I would say they're below 25% of the male population.

[snooper2]

150. First!

LOL

[hlthe2b]

2. The contempt some men have for women has never been more obvious than since...

the advent of the internet. Seems these insecure little dweebs MUST hide behind the anonymity of the WWW, before "bravely" pushing their overt and very ugly misogyny.

I fear the problem is only going to get worse and I'll be damned if I know what the solution might be, but I do echo the OP's suggestions to parents. Unfortunately, I'm not at all sure some of this ugliness isn't being perpetuated by older adult males, who seem to have harbored this animosity and contempt for many years.

[Luminous Animal]

9. The contempt has always been there the difference is that the misogynists can gather in large

"vocal" groups.

[LiberalLoner]

27. +1 the more power women gain the worse the hatred for women. It is not going to

End well at all.

[Brickbat]

3. How dare you tell men they can't like boobs.

Men are wired to like boobs. They can't help it. And because they can't help it, they can't help it if some of them express how much they like boobs. Compulsively, even when those boobs are sick and can kill the person they're attached to. That has nothing to with loving boobs. They just love those boobs so much! They are MOURNING the loss of boobs! These men, who feel the need to verbalize everything that comes to their minds, are so powerless before the boobs that they lose all agency over their own persons. So even if the boobs are full of malignant poison, some men who love boobs so much just have to tell the world about how they love these boobs, and what a tragedy it will be when they're gone. Because boobs.

[Sheldon Cooper]

50. +1

[Brickbat]

75. You're exactly right.

By saying that men who can't think beyond a pair of boobs when a woman has cancer are objectionable, I am saying that men should never find anything attractive about women's bodies, ever. EVER. And you're right, again -- because I object to men who can't think beyond a pair of boobs when a woman has cancer, I'm fugly and obese. You're amazing.

[cui bono]

161. Can't reply to hidden post so I'll reply here:

Really? Then you'd guess so very wrong. Let alone how stupid and insensitive and misogynistic your post was... the fact is that any attractive woman with self-esteem doesn't really care that a man is attracted to her looks. What did the woman do to accomplish that? Pretty much nothing. What women would like is to know that a man is attracted to what makes her her. Something that has value. I can't tell you what a turn off it is to be on a date and have the guy tell you you have beautiful eyes, or how attractive you are. What an empty and meaningless comment that is. Those guys were tossed out early as they clearly weren't going to be a good match for anyone wanting to actually discuss something important and to have a meaningful relationship.

Really unbelievable to read a comment such as yours on here. That has to be the most juvenile thing I've read here.

[Brickbat]

162. Wow, I didn't know that post was hidden until I saw your response here.

Thanks, alerter! I didn't even think to hit alert on that garbage. Which just goes to show how very pervasive it is.

[dawg]

169. I think you are confusing this poster with Locut0s.

[seabeyond]

174. thank you very much. i will self delete. i think i have been doing it for YEARS with these two.

lol.

my to the core bad and from the heart apology, to locutos

i have been on a back and forth pattern of empathy to disgust to empathy to disgust with the posters and i was often confused.

i realized i was doing that with another two posters yesterday. and it was the same thing. defend women, attack women. i fighured it was a couple sharing names. until i realized two different people.

thanks dawg. an important self delete.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

5. Thank you for being aware --

and for exposing this. We need more men like you speaking out.

[seabeyond]

7. hey...

i read your whole post to my boys. it was excellent. and ya, we all appreciate your voice. they stand with you. and ya, i get the son thing.

[MineralMan]

10. That little shit would piss himself

if she was in the same room. Just before she ripped his head off his scrawny shoulders. He is not worthy of notice.

[DebJ]

176. LOL spot on! Thanks for that vision! ROFL n/t

[randome]

11. Eh. It's the Anonymous Internet. People say insulting things when they can't be held to account.

I would not see Twitter or Facebook as necessarily emblematic of society at large.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[msanthrope]

12. It's 5 jackasses on Twitter. Hardly a 'generation.' nt

[lovemydog]

38. Yup

Talk about stereotyping and painting with a huge brush. Of course, I don't support those five twitter jackasses.

[arely staircase]

45. no kidding, if youtube comments reflect society at large

most people are skinheads

[jberryhill]

65. You didn't hear?

Every young man except those guys was wiped out a while back.

Our entire reproductive prospects as a species depend on what you so casually call those "5 jackasses".

Their sperm is being banked and distributed by the UN to avert what would otherwise be a catastrophic population crash.

[msanthrope]

202. And you know they're gonna want porn to order to make deposits, right?

Further proof of the depravity of the species....

[LittleBlue]

123. Indeed. Imagine if every person on twitter represented their generation

It would be easy to slander any generation with oddball twitter statements.

This is an example of another farcical generalization.

[yawnmaster]

13. I think your generalization of young men is way to broad, based on these twitter comments...

you are seeing the shit which floats in twitter.
making the jump that the young men of this generation are represented by this is going a bit far.

[anneboleyn]

46. I agree. As a member of the "MTV" generation, it is insulting to BOTH sexes

to make such broad claims against millions. My husband is NOT like this -- and no this is not delusion on my part. Nor are any of his friends and/or colleagues. Why do the 1950s move of claiming that the computer/MTV kids are just so evil?

[alp227]

215. You have no idea about the crazy beliefs about sex American young men hold.

2009 survey shows that most college-age men will admit they commit rape...as long as the survey dodges the R-word and instead jumps straight to the broader meaning of the word.

And why is Daniel Tosh still popular among his target audience of young men despite his "wouldn't it be funny if that girl were raped" controversy. And why Rick Ross is still popular despite making songs with lyrics suggesting rape. If young men in this nation had any conscience, Tosh and Ross would be collecting unemployment checks today.

[yawnmaster]

220. I have a very good idea of what beliefs young men hold...you apparently did not read that...

site correctly. Where did you get, "2009 survey shows that most college-age men will admit they commit rape..."
That is not true...it is not in the survey...nor in the article...I can only believe you either just made it up (perhaps for hyperbole) or that you somehow believe this is what the article says, when it doesn't.

Secondly, if you gave this survey to past generations, I suspect you would get similar or worse results, as most of the positive replies are coming from the question regarding having sex with someone intoxicated.

There is no proof or even any support here that this generation of young men is any different.
And please read the article a bit closer. You will see a percentage of MUCH less than MOST college-age men...I believe about 6% of the sample said they would take advantage of someone while intoxicated.

That is 94% that won't!!!! not even near most.

your generalizations, in my opinion, are unreasonably, and ridiculously broad.

[seabeyond]

236. 35% anonymously admitted that, under certain circumstances, they would commit rape

if they believed they could get away with it

· One in 12 admitted to committing acts that met the legal definitions of rape, and 84% of men who committed rape did not label it as rape.(ref 6,7)

· 43% of college-aged men admitted to using coercive behavior to have sex, including ignoring a woman's protest, using physical aggression, and forcing intercourse.

· 15% acknowledged they had committed acquaintance rape; 11% acknowledged using physical restraints to force a woman to have sex.

http://www.uic.edu/depts/owa/sa_rape_support.html

[yawnmaster]

242. Exactly! That is nowhere near "most" man as alp states above...also those surveys are...

from a prior generation! (the 1980s) probably closer to the DU generation!
So again, nothing has shown that this current generation is any different than any other.
And also that hyperbole is strong.

[nomorenomore08]

245. What it does show, to me, is that people/men are pretty fucked up, and always have been.

I don't have any real answers myself, but I figure I can at least try to be a decent human being, and maybe (hopefully) encourage others to be.

[yawnmaster]

246. LOL I would agree some people are pretty fucked up...people in general, don't think so. eom

[nomorenomore08]

247. I agree up to a point. But I don't think it's quite that simple.

I figure we, as human beings, are more or less all capable of (relative) good or evil. Human nature, to the extent that it is innate - what extent, no one can say for sure - consists of both "positive" and "negative" qualities. Very few people can be said to be entirely good or entirely evil.

Basically, my point is that "good people" and "bad people" aren't entirely discrete (i.e. separate) categories.

[loyalsister]

14. I saw this on FB and pointed out the privilege

I have a friend who is at significant risk but can't afford to have the test or the surgery.

A guy responded with this: A privilege, huh? Looks like a sacrifice to me. If you look hard enough, you can always find something wrong.

I pointed out that not winding up going through cancer treatment and dying early doesn't sound like much of a sacrifice to me.

[galileoreloaded]

15. i see it as a horrible adaptation by males to female behavior

and the pendulum is swinging way past where it should go.

i think a lot of men would say that as females have made huge jumps forward in this country and have pretty much reached parity with job, pay, and education opportunities, they have gotten mean. thats my experience.

and the only thing they respond to is a complete asshole as a mechanism to weed out the "nice guy".

masculinity (including the unfeeling variety) is in, in, in and its only going to get worse.

to the what, 5 DU'ers who are going to attempt to freak out on me for speaking truth, i will only respond to comments regarding what i have said, not some defective analysis as to why i said it.

[seabeyond]

17. there you go, cause it is better, not parity, it is the womans fault. there are always the asian

and russian women. i hear they are not as.... mean.

[galileoreloaded]

18. i think its all of our faults.

but i deal with what is and not what should be.

paint me a realist.

[seabeyond]

19. you think it is all the mens fault, yet only blame the wimmins. that is a realist?

i see it as much more complicated

[galileoreloaded]

104. lol. not even a good try. :( i expected more from you. nt

[Skittles]

24. OMG SEABEYOND, NOW WE'RE "MEAN"

WHY are they so easily threatened???

[seabeyond]

25. well, fuck woman, you go around kickin' everyones ass.

what do you expect.

i dunno. there is another thread recently where i am being told.... men are AFRAID. fuckin afraid. of what? losing dominance and control. that we women are bad cause we are trying to change men who are merely afraid and that is why they hate women so.

what is that shit.

[Skittles]

26. aw it's probably the paranoid, gun humping men

REAL men are not threatened by us gals - they love us

[galileoreloaded]

110. you did NOT just say "real men"...

i love this website. its like a social petrie dish where every experiment i conduct is proven right.

outstanding.

[Skittles]

112. OMG

[galileoreloaded]

114. thats what I said!!!!

[BainsBane]

117. Good point.

Secure would be a more precise descriptor.

[Skittles]

125. self deleting

lest I hurt someone's feelings

[BainsBane]

126. I would never suggest such a thing

[Democracyinkind]

136. and that doesn't make you skeptical as to the

validity of your method?

[Laelth]

146. Just a thought.

It's possible that REAL men love women, desire women, and want women in their lives, but are afraid of women and threatened by them at the same time.

Thus, I argue, we see the modern Republican party ... a bunch of people voting for the "penis" party and against their own interests because, at bottom, their real fear is of women, but they can't stand the cognitive dissonance of both loving women and fearing women at the same time, so they transfer that fear onto others ... socialists, Marxists, communists, people with darker skin, people who don't speak English as a native language, poor people who exploit government largess, terrorists, Muslims, etc. And the Republican Party exploits these fears, to great effect.

Or, so I suggest.

-Laelth

[Warpy]

62. They hated us even worse when they had full control

To me, that says they don't want control, they hate that kind of responsibility, but their pride won't allow them to let go of it gracefully.

As for the OP, it is a broad brush but sometimes you need a broad brush to cover a large canvas. There are great guys in their teens and early twenties in my bad neighborhood who come over to try to help out without being asked. I can't see them being particularly censorious toward a star they consider an old lady trying to save her life.

They're probably outnumbered in the fancier neighborhoods. The young males on Twitter bagging Jolie because of a life saving operation would have fit in just fine in the fancier areas my parents started to live in when I got to high school.

[seabeyond]

68. warpy, this is not just about jolie. we hear it all the time. and to suggest it is broadbrush is

purposely ignoring the many many threads pointing out the number of times that women are verbally attacked on the net.

and no, i do not think the men want the control. and they do and they dont and do and dont.

saying, they want the control but not the responsibility.

though as you say, there are many young men that totally embrace giving up the power and control. allowing each other to have ownership of self. much easier.

[eridani]

140. Swimming in a river full of sewage is going to have an effect on you--

--no matter how good a swimmer you are.

[Laelth]

143. I am pleased to see that our discussion had an impact on you.

It certainly had an impact on me. I am still thinking about it.

Cheers! We are, in the long run, on the same side.

-Laelth

[seabeyond]

147. what a good sport you are. yup. me too. lol. still thinking about it.

i am gonna have to start up an OP on it when i have the time.

[Laelth]

148. I am looking forward to it. n/t

-Laelth

[xmas74]

103. Can I be mean too?

I really want to, though it's usually hard for me.

I WANNA BE A MEAN WOMAN TOO!!!

[Skittles]

115. you want I should kick your ass to toughen you up, xmas74?

I'D DO THAT FOR YOU MY SWEET!

[xmas74]

139. Thank you!

If I toughened up maybe people wouldn't walk over me quite so much.

[BainsBane]

116. Translation: we talk back

And have an opinion. We even compete in the workplace now rather than staying in the kitchen where we belong.

[Scootaloo]

43. ...

Women are getting mean and only respond to assholes, so men are "coping" by becoming bigger assholes? That's your thesis?

Is today "stupid day" or something? Did I miss a memo?

[DebJ]

177. LOL that's a good one.

I love these threads. Wouldn't be DU without one of these slam fests once in awhile. Good for belly laughs.

[freshwest]

227. 'Cuz wimmiz luv assholes!' Yup, that's how it read. You made me ROFLMAO. Thanks.

[treestar]

44. I don't notice that women are any meaner

in general. Some of them are nicer than they would be if stuck in the old roles.

[zerosumgame0005]

83. the ones who imitate "the boss"

Last edited Wed May 15, 2013, 12:00 AM - Edit history (1)

can be very mean in order to get ahead in a particular company.

[seabeyond]

89. of either gender. really has nothing to do with the Op or the person being replied to.

and what is "the boosd"

[zerosumgame0005]

99. OMG I mis-speeled a word!

What a tragedy! Almost as tragic as a head up their ass moron who obviously understood what I tried to write then in the next sentence slams me for it. I am not shocked you fail to understand the subject being discussed.

[Starry Messenger]

52. You're right, we should have stayed in the kitchen and been nicer.

Any guy who thinks he needs to be an asshole to a woman to compensate for the fact that she doesn't need to kiss his ass is going to get the social life he deserves.

[zerosumgame0005]

84. you don't know women very wel do you

the biggest asshole guys are the ones who get laid a lot. "nice guys" go home alone...

[Starry Messenger]

87. "Wel", I am a woman. I know lots of women very well and not one of them conforms to your

nasty, bigoted stereotype. Clue, if you have to refer to a man as a "nice guy" in scare quotes, he's usually some bitter, passive-aggressive manchild who is pissed not every hot woman he knows is jumping into dating his misogynistic baggage. He's the guy who won't date nice girls because he thinks he deserves someone in his imagined higher bracket .

[zerosumgame0005]

101. I see what happnens, and unlike you

I am not stupid enough to claim that my circle of friends are the ONLY people in the world.

[Starry Messenger]

113. You've got a special brand of your own.

No, actually you're a pretty typical specimen.

[freshwest]

228. 'won't date nice girls... thinks he deserves someone in his imagined higher bracket'

Fits Erich Fromme's analysis of relationships managed by capitalist or materialist values, looking for the 'best buy' in partners. He influenced how I view relationships, that is, not in the market sense.

[BainsBane]

119. What I've noticed

Is that men that don't have success with beautiful women call themselves nice guys but rarely are. Nice guys don't look to get laid. They get to know women as human beings and establish relationships.

[freshwest]

230. We have a winner! And just 'getting laid' doesn't promise long-term happiness.

Those who settle for instant gratification can have short, unhappy lives, too.

[Democracyinkind]

137. grow up already

no one over 17 should believe such shit.

[MineralMan]

166. Nah. The asshole guys are the ones who SAY they get

laid a lot. It's part of their assholery.

[DebJ]

180. Hm you seem to indicate that getting laid a lot

is a good thing......and implied is laid by a lot of different women.
That isn't good, isn't healthy, and is a really pathetic 'goal' in life.

And women who do that aren't worth having,either........

[nomorenomore08]

190. How old are you? There is a grain of truth to what you said, but the world isn't that simple.

Some assholes get laid a lot. But generally they have something else going for them besides asshole-ishness.

And trying too hard to be "nice" - much like trying too hard at most things - tends not to produce ideal results.

Really, none of this is a shattering revelation to me. I've had similar thoughts to yours, in my more self-pitying moments. But again I say, the world is not that simple. Stop thinking in such black-and-white terms and you'll probably feel better.

[YoungDemCA]

209. Thanks for perpetuating a disgusting stereotype....

...that is hurtful and harmful to men and women alike.

1. You assume that "getting laid a lot" and "going home alone" are the only two options for men. I guess there's no option for any man who has only had sex with a few or even one woman in his life (but is happily married or otherwise in a long-term relationship) in your little world.

2. Furthermore, you assume that "getting laid alot" is the ultimate goal of every man, or should be. Don't you realize how juvenile that makes you sound?

3. You also say that 'the biggest asshole guys" are the ones who "get laid alot." This is, of course, not necessarily true, and neither is the "nice guys go home alone' by any means necessarily true.

4. Finally-and here's where the anti-woman sexism in your post comes out-you assume that every women is so naive and so stupid that they would ditch a "nice guy" (assuming, of course, that the man actually IS a nice guy) for the "assholes". You have to realize that women are as complex and as varied in their attitudes towards sex, relationships, dating, and romance as men are, so these stereotypes and blanket statements, in addition to being sexist, are also, more often than not, untrue at a broader level.

So yeah....please don't stereotype so much, and don't pigeonhole people based on stupid, sexist cultural generalizations.

[galileoreloaded]

107. hate to tell ya, but those guys clean up.

thats the point.

[Starry Messenger]

118. Clean up what?

Closing time at the Dew Drop Inn?

[Shankapotomus]

86. And who cultivated this competative and mean cut throat spirit

in the job world? Men. It's practically a sport and some men pride themselves on how much they can take and dish out. For eons the career world was male dominated and that's the way it was operated. Just because some women accidentally or even cynically adopt what has been the traditionally competitive male ethos of the job market, doesn't mean feminism did that. Cruelty certainly isn't right when perpetrated by either sex but that's not feminism. If meanness were a symptom of feminism there would have been none of it before women started entering the job market. The meanness was always there as a non-gender specific behavior in the business world due to the worship of competition. It just didn't hurt as much when it was only coming from the undesirable same sex.

and I think the key word in your post in regards to "masculinity" (which today isn't really any kind of genuine masculinity) being "in" is "worse." "it's only going to get worse." Something that had any genuine value could never be described as "getting worse." So that pretty much speaks for the current trend in "masculinity."

[galileoreloaded]

105. ok, 7-10 of the usual suspects. my bad :)

at least I know who's who.

[BainsBane]

134. Right, because only 10 people

On earth could possibly object to your blaming disgusting misogynist comments on women. Angelina Jolie was so "mean" to those guys by sleeping with her own husband instead of men who spend their lives despising women. Everything is the woman's fault. Prosecuting rape is "special protection" for women. You must not talk to many women because very few will accept that kind of repulsive victim blaming.

[hlthe2b]

144. Are you capable of reflecting on your own words--your own opnions?

Good thing you can hide behind the anonymity of the "intertubes". I suspect the women who are in your life would not be too understanding of the 'cave man' attitudes you are expressing.

[fishwax]

159. I think that's a crock

I don't think women "have gotten mean" or that they only respond to complete assholes. Setting aside the absurdly broad-brush nature of the explanation, it doesn't mesh with my experience at all.

[cui bono]

164. Are you saying that men are behaving badly because women are now mean?

And they are mean how? I don't understand your statement about responding to a complete asshole...

[Arugula Latte]

16. I saw some asshole on a friend's FB thread called it a "boob job."

I swear, there is so much hostile stupidity out there ...

[Buzz Clik]

20. Your main point is the offensive nature of these posts. Agreed! But, for the love of God,

shitcan you Twitter account and never read another Tweet for the rest of your life. Who needs the noise?

(I completely agree that the Tweets are horrible and a sign of people with no soul, but I refuse to expose myself to that.)

[hlthe2b]

32. Yes. that is why I've never had a twitter account. I don't need to see hate and ugliness spewed 24/7

Ditto facebook.

[Initech]

21. Holy shit. Fuck this bigoted, sexist culture indeed.

I used to wonder if social media sites like Facebook and Twitter have made us meaner as a society. Now I know the answer to that.

[JaneyVee]

23. Because cynicism & lack of compassion produce assholes.

[freshwest]

232. +1. Both are ways of saying, I don't carea about you, I'm in it for myself alone.

[chillfactor]

28. I was on HP earlier today....

they ran a story about Angelina Jolie..the responses posted by some men made me sick.....physically sick..I had a mastectomy in 2000...it was a devastating decision.....and to trump my decision or Jolie's with sick jokes tells me how many men in this society view women.....someone here stated that men are obsessed with "boobs"....what happened to men admiring women for their intellect, their critical thinking skills, their reasoning skills, their common sense, their inner beauty, their education..men so focused on one physical trait is plain psychotic thinking.....I do not look at every man to try and decide how long their penis is.....I look at the whole man....there is NO EXCUSE for men behaving like psychopathic horses' assess....

[liberalmuse]

36. Thank you for posting this.

I admire women who have made the very heart wrenching decision you have made. You have no idea how many people love you and will be forever grateful that you're still alive because you made the incredibly difficult decision you've made. You, and all breast cancer survivors, no matter what their decisions, deserve better. Just know that there are tens of millions of people who understand, those of us who have lost beloved females in their lives to breast cancer, and we give you our utmost reverence and respect.

[chillfactor]

37. what a beautiful, thoughtful post....

thank you very much!

[calimary]

130. So do I, indeed.

Sometimes it's courage and sometimes it's sheer practicality.

In Angelina Jolie's case, it strikes me as a move that's just eminently practical and sensible as hell. She looked at her genetic disposition; her odds; the six children she loves who are depending on her; a partner she loves who's depending on her, with whom she'd probably like to grow old; ideas; projects; campaigns and missions using her fame to help change the world - AND a future wherein she plans to see those kids graduate, walk down the aisle, start businesses, whatever. My former sister-in-law made that decision in her own life, years ago. She'd had two kids, and she and my brother-in-law wanted to stop there. Her mother died of breast cancer while still relatively young. She didn't want to live with that kind of fear and dread, or meet that fate, and leave her kids without a mother too soon. So she had it done. Seemed to make perfect sense to me.

Besides, "boobs" are something we women have. NOT something we are.

[DebJ]

179. The ironic thing is that those type of men really believe that women ARE

only looking at their penises... which is probably the 'best' thing they have to offer.

[lovemydog]

218. My mom and stepmom

have both had mastectomies. You are loved and cherished. I too am sick of men and women and stupid advertising media focusing on that kind of nonsense. Please know that most people think & act like you & me. I agree there is no excuse for men behaving like psychopathic horses' asses. Welcome here chillfactor.

[olddots]

29. the culture is the technology that enables this garbage

we have to come to terms with it because this "social net working " is making us devolve .
I will get flamed for being a codger but some of the hippy ideals were much better than today's rape and war culture.

[yawnmaster]

225. What it really does is enable us to see the garbage. I suspect it has always been there...

now anonymous communication allows the garbage to stink so we can all smell it.

the garbage who once could sit , hidden, in their dark rooms (metaphorically) with their dark thoughts, now can sit in their dark rooms and communicate their filth to everyone.

[liberalmuse]

30. I actually cried when I read the news story.

Because if my mom had done the same, she would have lived. AJ did a wonderful thing here, and will save many lives. Her coming out with this deserves so much better than this crass display of misogyny. I only hope to live long enough where racists and misogynists are shamed back into the woodwork, never to rear their ugly heads again.

[Arcanetrance]

31. This is so depressing these guys don't know the courage it takes for her to have done this.

Putting aside what it'll probably do to her acting career. None of these guys would be beyond scared to face the choice of losing a part of your body or possible death. This culture really needs a change.

[Bluenorthwest]

41. Her career will not suffer, she's a huge star and producer and a powerful person

She will also continue to be extraordinarily good looking. She is very very courageous. And to hell with those internet guys.

[Arcanetrance]

57. I guess I don't have enough faith in humanity that

Her established career so far will mean anything to them

[Bluenorthwest]

165. I'd just say you lack information and substitute cynicism.

As far as information goes, it was only in discussions about Jolie that I found out Christina Applegate had the same surgery a few years back. She's been very busy since starring in a Network comedy among other things and looking great as she always has. Didn't hurt her career, nor did it hamper her ability to act nor did it stop her from being pretty while also being funny. I'd guess she's made many times more money in the years after the surgery than in the same number of years before it. She made millions.

[mythology]

33. That's the beauty of the internet

You can see the stupid easily and it's hard to erase. But do you really think that nobody who isn't young enough to be on Twitter has similar thoughts. The internet lets people be stupid very quickly by pressing the send/post button before they finished thinking. It's nothing new to humanity.

Todd Akin is much older than the putz from Twitter and he said something that is, in my opinion, similarly offensive.

But I think there is a larger point we as a society need to discuss because we largely regard the development of breasts as one of the outward signs a girl is becoming a woman. I remember an episode of Law and Order from the early 90s that made the same point and when one of the detectives asked the lieutenant why a woman would choose to not have a mastectomy, she referred to the sign that breasts define the change from a girl to a woman and asked if there were parts the male detective would be adverse to having removed.

[pipoman]

34. I don't care about any of that stuff..

my problem with it is that only the wealthy can afford such preventative procedures. No insurance company will pay for the test, let alone the surgery. This happens all the time. The wealthy get tests no insurance will pay for, thus the number of wealthy we hear about who find cancer and other serious conditions very early. The rest of us have to wait until we have symptoms and by then it's too late..

[csziggy]

71. Rev. Al Sharpton had a segement about the test

Currently only one company, Myriad Genetics, offers the test, which costs $4,000 for the uninsured. Myriad spokesman Ron Rogers has said that his company will administer the test for free or at a “greatly reduced cost” for patients without insurance.

The company’s monopoly has been challenged in court, and the Supreme Court heard arguments just last month in the case, where lawyers for the ACLU argued that the company should not be able to patent human genes like BRCA-1. Depending on how the Supreme Court rules, Myriad’s patent could be invalidated, allowing testing to become more broadly available and possibly driving costs down.

http://tv.msnbc.com/2013/05/14/angelina-jolies-decision-what-people-need-to-know-to-protect-themselves/

[csziggy]

79. PoliticsNation had a good segement about the test and the issues

While most insurance companies offer free or reduced-cost testing–and BRCA counseling about genetic testing for women must be covered by health insurance under the Affordable Care Act–it’s only required when the service is delivered by a network provider. Many women who don’t have health insurance will be faced with potentially high costs if they wish to undergo testing.

Currently only one company, Myriad Genetics, offers the test, which costs $4,000 for the uninsured. Myriad spokesman Ron Rogers has said that his company will administer the test for free or at a “greatly reduced cost” for patients without insurance.

The company’s monopoly has been challenged in court, and the Supreme Court heard arguments just last month in the case, where lawyers for the ACLU argued that the company should not be able to patent human genes like BRCA-1. Depending on how the Supreme Court rules, Myriad’s patent could be invalidated, allowing testing to become more broadly available and possibly driving costs down.

http://tv.msnbc.com/2013/05/14/angelina-jolies-decision-what-people-need-to-know-to-protect-themselves/

[MattBaggins]

35. Have the gentlemen in the Men's Rights Dungeon

removed Jolie form their popular "Totally Hot Celeb's I'd like to...." thread since they heard about this?

[Warren DeMontague]

49. Hmmmm. Which "Men's Rights Dungeon" do you speak of?

There is no "Men's Rights Dungeon" on DU.

Do you mean the Men's Group instead? It seems you're familiar with it:

About MattBaggins
Statistics and Information
Account status: Active
Member since: 2001
Number of posts: 6,074
Number of posts, last 90 days: 684
Favorite forum: General Discussion, 658 posts in the last 90 days (96% of total posts)
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Last post: Tue May 14, 2013, 05:43 PM

As for the hot celebrity thread, yeah, I know it drives some people absolutely BONKERS that there are attractive people in the world that other people find attractive on the basis of their APPEARANCE, even.

Verily, yon thread be a horrible chasm of wickedness, a bubbling cauldron of evil, wherein sick, horrible lookist people wantonly and unrepentantly refer to celebrities as "hot", even...




but anyway, none of that really has jack diddly to do with "R Jeezy's" tweet, now, does it.

Short answer to your (sort of) question, I haven't seen anyone on DU be anything but supportive to Ms. Jolie.

Oh, Except maybe the people who instead want to use her situation as a cheap cudgel with which to whack the folks they have some goofy axe to grind against.

[opiate69]

73. +a brazillian!

[Warren DeMontague]

92. *snork*

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

163. Matt? Matt? Yoo hoo?

Should we send out a search party?

[Scootaloo]

39. "A generation"?

I'm sad to report that this is multi-generational. Tumblr, facebook, reddit, et al simply put the same old opinions in ultra-public space.

[JohnnyBoots]

40. Profile in Courage

After a while when in love and after a couple kids you realize life and marriage is a lot more than a great set of tits. Good for her. She is very brave for making this public.

[polly7]

48. Well said.

When I think of the tenderness and love my Dad showed my Mom through her surgery and recovery it brings tears to my eyes. Good for her for sharing and I wish her all the best. The internet will always expose the scummiest comments first and loudest. I have to believe there are many more sane and compassionate voices, and this will be a great opportunity for education and awareness.

[JohnnyBoots]

51. Amen

Your dad sound like a hell of a guy.

[polly7]

53. Thank you .. yes, he really was. nt.

[Warren DeMontague]

42. That's it.

I'm taking "R Jeezy" off my twitter feed.

[LittleBlue]

47. It's the internet

If it's outrageous or offensive, you'll find it on the internet. Anonymity causes verbal diarrhea. Don't take it too seriously.


For what it's worth, Angelina Jolie is sexy with or without boobs. She's still a goddess in my eyes.

[BlueToTheBone]

54. It isn't just America.

In the Sudan, men hunt women for sport and gang rape her until her insides fall out. In Afghanistan, women are murdered for wanting to be educated. In India, small girl children are raped. Over a quarter a million women and children go missing each year in the world mostly for sex trade. (that must be very brutal, because they go through the victims so quickly!) So, it is a male thing, world wide and somehow you must learn to make the feminine sacred. Until then,

[99Forever]

55. Personally..

... I have no use for anyone that would say such things, please direct your anger as those who do so and understand that they don't reflect the thought process of all men, by a long shot. My son turned 40 last month, btw, so I'll refrain from snooping in his "Twitter account" (even if I did know how to do that) if that's ok by you. I suggest you tone down the broadbrush blaming of an entire gender and you'll be much more effective in gaining support.

The posse should be here to jump all over me shortly. Which is fine, because I intend on trashing this thread as soon as I finish posting this. Have a nice evening.

[DesertFlower]

56. disgusting. anglelina said brad was by her side

through the whole thing.

[TNNurse]

58. My opinion

is that I have never read anything of any value on Twitter. I also only read tweets posted elsewhere since I do not think there is any reason to communicate in such a way.

There are some wonderful men in this world. There are also some mindless assholes.

[one_voice]

59. A generation?

I don't know that you could lump an entire generation in with a group misogynistic knuckle head asswipes on twitter/the internet. There are a lot of decent young men out there that stand up for women's rights all the time and are not part of this culture.

This group of snot fucks aren't the future anything except the next pimple they pop in moms basement.

[DirkGently]

64. Yes. There are real issues. The dregs of the Internet are not

our best evidence of any of them.

[JVS]

102. Internet trolls are the voice of our generation!

[DirkGently]

108. All hail: The Trollest Generation!

[Warren DeMontague]

131. I was just thinking, who is the Millenial Bob Dylan, and "R Jeezy" immediately sprang to mind.

It's the wit and wisom of "Memphis Blues, Again", if that song was 120 characters long and written by a garden slug.

[JVS]

217. Boomer privilege means that you get to listen to musicians who wrote songs like...

"Under my thumb", "Johhny get angry", "That's what you get for loving me", "He hit me (and it felt like a kiss)", "Getting better", and "Just like a woman" and you're ok. But if you're not boomer some random people tweet shit and your part of a generation typified by deep seated hatred and misogyny.

[Warren DeMontague]

219. Here's the script:

1) Post generalizing, obviously Broad-Brushing OP accusing Group Z of somehow being collectively responsible for some egregious outlying examples of bad random shit.


2) When members of that Group Z get understandably irritated by the broad brushing, respond with "but WHYYYYY do some people get so defensive about this?"


3) Use the "defensive" examples as further evidence of widespread problems in Group Z, which can be used for further broad brush slams.


4) Rinse, Repeat, sit back and enjoy the fun!

[arely staircase]

60. that's weird

twitter is usually a regular French salon of high brow intellectual discussion.

[Shankapotomus]

61. Because we refuse to stand up to it in mass

Good women and men need to stand up together against this plague, protect, aid and defend one another.

Educate yourself and in your life, in your day to day actions and activities REFUSE TO STAND FOR IT:

[seabeyond]

70. Because we refuse to stand up to it in mass +1 . nt

[jberryhill]

63. If that's a whole generation, our species is doomed

I had no idea that a couple of assholes on twitter constituted the sum total of the next generation of men.

[enough]

67. Thinking about this as a 68 yr old person who grew up at a time when there was no TV in the house:

Is there a point where we have to decide we are going to live without joining up with this depraved manifestation of human culture? I know there is a good argument for knowing what is going on in the culture. But that's different from avidly following every expression of the culture in its deeply degraded form.

As I go about the actual world, I usually encounter human beings with at least some minescule amount of perception and empathy, people who seem to be living in essentially the same world I am living in, where we are all in one boat, and don't actively wish each other harm, even though we are often not alike in any observable way, and may not like each other very much.

When I follow the world of electronic culture, I experience a world of deep and intense hatred, of simply pathological lust for the most perverted destruction of others (especially women). I think of it as blood lust or death cult, with an essential woman-hating current. I don't know where this is coming from, other than the most obvious source, human self-hatred. It's easy to just give up on the very idea of humanity when encountering this and realizing that it's not only tolerated but encouraged by the dominant societal media.

The only thing I can think of is to try to live in the actual world, where people don't actually want to dismember and kill each other, even though they may find life difficult and have a hard time getting along.

Against the electronic backdrop, it gets hard and harder not to give up.

[seabeyond]

72. my teens do not do facebook and twitter, yea. i was thinking about this just yesterday.

they do a little tv. a little computer games. (both mostly sports). read a little net (news). and participate a little on discussion boards (sports). and they hang with friends out and about. play basket ball with neigborhood kids, each other, by themselves. they have their sport. they read books.

diverse.

not a lot of time in any one thing.

i like that. not enough of anything to take it to the point of unhealthy.

[DirkGently]

76. Well said. Anonymous electronic grafitti brings out some ugly, primeval

distillation of the all of the worst of humanity. And good stuff, too, here and there.

But we lose something when we don't meet face to face. Everyone has had an issue with someone (or themselves) suddenly going ballistic in an e-mail conversation, introducing levels of nastiness they would never contemplate in person.

It's real, but it also isn't real. A lot of it is people screaming into the darkness, unable to conceive their mother, friend, or co-worker is on the other side of the gulf, absorbing all the madness like a blow.

[Warren DeMontague]

132. There's always "The Mentalist"

THANK GOD FOR THE MENTALIST!!!

[freshwest]

231. Thanks. I've seen it, and unfortunately it has made me distrust people more. Although I see few of

the manifestations in real life, there are moments when I see a man yelling at woman like a dog, women cursing at their children, or children cursing their parents.

It is the underbelly, things I never saw before, and it wasn't that I was unaware of these things. Generally I associate with people who into public service, Democrats, liberals who abhor any kind of violence and cruelty.

Their hearts see no need to be abusive, bigoted, etc. I call their presence like being with the angels, and particularly young men who not troublesome or hostile sort, are as humane as any loving son or brother, and a joy to be around. For them and the women in their lives, I do not worry.

But I don't watch television or go to movies, don't follow what is called trendy but to me is pathological and unhealthy. I've seen young women who are with controlling, on the verge of violence men, and the look in their faces breaks my heart. For some reason, they go with these men, from something in their family life, perhaps. But they are the minority.

[Rex]

69. I don't think a handful of men equal an entire generation

but go on with your bad self!

[mchill]

74. I had the same surgery as AJ

and also for the BRCA gene mutation (though mine was BRCA2, not BRCA1) and one of my breasts was already dx'd with cancer. I would hope the focus of AJ's op-ed be an awareness of BRCA testing (believe me, most doctors are very uninformed on this topic) and that most health insurances won't pay the $4000 price tag for the test, unless one already has been dx'd breast cancer. I had asked for the test, atleast twice, before cancer, and only got discouragement.

Thank you Angelina Jolie.

I gave up on infantile young men, long ago.

[Half-Century Man]

78. Just Because

Just because something might be an owner/operator of a penis, does not make it a man. I would prefer not to be lumped in with ....primates.. like that.
I screw up my own life just fine and require no help.

[DebJ]

181. Well said! n/t

[Half-Century Man]

184. They are demean the name dick

Seriously, people who act like pricks hate being associated with these vermin.

[Gidney N Cloyd]

81. Teenagers say a lot of stupid shit.

[WinkyDink]

85. Well, we could ask the ancient Athenians.

[stevenleser]

88. I have to admit to being shocked by this tweet

...and profoundly disappointed.

It's a new sociopathic low.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

90. What is REALLY funny is when these guys act like they WOULD have slept with her,...but not anymore.

[Warren DeMontague]

93. Yeah.

R Jeezy was totally in the on-deck circle.

[aikoaiko]

91. I expected much worse

Plus links to firefox and gia screen shots.

[NaturalHigh]

106. Ah...another "men are jerks" thread.

As for spying on my kids' facebook posts, no thanks. I trust them a hell of a lot more than people like you who condemn so many for the words of a few jackasses.

[Marr]

109. This is a style of "humor" that I think was born of the internet.

It's pure meanness for meanness' sake. They go straight to the most offensive thing they can think of and say it in the hopes of gaining attention in a sea of strangers. Exactly like a shock jock.

[Revanchist]

120. I don't think the number of assholes (of either sex) has changed

I think the internet has enabled us to be exposed to more of them instead of just the ones who are local. Of course the anonymity of certain parts of the web doesn't help, when you can hide behind a made-up screen name, it's easy to be a "tough guy".

[Common Sense Party]

122. And 30 years ago, the tough guy misogynist twerp didn't have a way to publish his bile so that

Last edited Wed May 15, 2013, 11:29 AM - Edit history (1)

thousands--hundreds of thousands--could read it. Today, every lowlife mouth-breather with wireless access can spew his stupidity around the world, and can get an immediate rise out of people (which is what these attention-seekers crave).

Probably the same percentage of a-holes as a generation ago, but now they're more visible so they seem ubiquitous.

[SoCalDem]

127. The internet is just a modern manifestation of

rowdy boys (and girls) who used to get their kicks by writing bad words on sidewalks...in chalk...and later in spray paint on walls

now they do it from Mom's basement (or their studio apartments)...on a laptop/phone

[Deep13]

128. Right, I'm sure he only loves her chest.

Losing my wife would be the absolute worst thing imaginable. Seriously, I'd rather go blind or loose a leg. I would want the docs to do anything possible to save her.

[DonCoquixote]

129. as some who has fantasized a lot about Miss Jolie

I will tell you that her beauty has NOT diminished one bit. Sexy is in the head, not the genitals.

[Contrary1]

133. From someone who has been there...

I was diagnosed with breast cancer back in 1997. I didn't have much choice with the first surgery. The doctor told us that there would not be much left after getting clean margins.

The second go-around came three years later. I was growing weary of the various lumps, bumps, and scares. I listened to that little voice. I asked for a prophylactic (preventative) mastectomy.

The pathology reports indicated that I had made the right decision. Several benign growths, along with two areas of "pre-cancer".

My husband said, and I remember his exact words..."I would rather spend the rest of my life with my best friend, than with two breasts." We're going on 41 years.

I belong to an online group of women who have fought, or are still fighting the aftermath of breast cancer. Several of these ladies had husbands or lovers who "couldn't cope".

Bullshit.

Shame on any "man" who would leave or cheat because of this. They weren't worth having anyway.

[spiderpig]

135. What's been happening on DU lately?

If you don't like Angelina that's your business. But her statement was thoughtful and immensely beneficial about a subject a lot of women are still ashamed to talk about.

My MIL died of breast cancer at age 39, and her daughter (my SIL) contracted the disease at 38. It is not fun.

At least DU offers the Ignore option, which I already used once today. Helps thin the herd.

I wish AnJo, her children, and Brad the best. No snark whatsoever.

[napoleon_in_rags]

138. Life.

Its my simple one word answer to this thread, to those who do not respect women, to the rest:

LIFE.

Every. Single. Person. On this planet has it because of a woman. This here... in the lens of any worldview, of any "political calculus".... this here is power. This alone is power.

Respect women.

Peace.

[Pelican]

141. Don't assume that one asshole speaks for a generation...

Otherwise one might assume that you come from a generation of broad brushers....

[DanTex]

145. It's not your generation.

I'm in my 30s, and I can assure you that this stuff has been around at least since I was in high school, and I'm pretty sure it wasn't my generation that started it either.

[redqueen]

160. No no no, that's just not possible.

It's only a handful of guys who talk about women this way, see?

Just five or six. And they're just teenagers. No grown men say these things.

And it's only on the net. Surely they're wonderful young men in real life!

/deluded minimizer

[DanTex]

170. Well, to be fair, the older men get, the less they say these kinds of things.

At least that's been my observation. Also, a lot of people who are like this in their teens and early 20s do grow out of it.

But, yes, stuff like this gets said all the time, it's not a recent development, it's not just on the internet.

On the other hand -- and you probably disagree -- I don't think that this is as big a deal as the OP makes it out to be. Maybe I'm just too desensitized to vulgar humor. If Brad Pitt had testicular cancer I'm pretty sure there would be comments about Angelina and the pool boy. People make crude jokes about stuff, especially young men.

Don't get me wrong, plenty of men really are sexist creeps, but a lot of comments like this don't come from some deep hatred or disrespect for women, but just trying to be funny and edgy and "wrong".

[redqueen]

173. Yeah, the thing is, I see this as connected to the pandemic of male violence against women.

Making jokes about the entire worth of a man as being in his penis or testicles is bad, but men simply are not objectified the way women are. (IIRC the difference is ~ 500%)

Objectification = dehumanization = license to treat the dehumanized however you wish.

[DanTex]

183. Yes, there probably is a connection.

I'm probably guilty of underappreciating the connection from this kind of "harmless" joke to rape and violence against women. It's a luxury men have that we don't need to worry every time we enter the subway or elevator that the normal looking woman is actually going to stalk us around and rape us.

Still, with the OP, my first reaction was that, yes, of course these kinds of comments happen all the time, but that in itself is not proof of the moral decay of society. When the OP starts out on that note, it's going to put people on the defensive, because a lot of them will have heard and/or laughed at and/or made jokes like this. I mean, let's be honest, this is pretty mild in the scheme of things. Try a men's locker room in high school or college.

The guy who made this joke is probably just some immature idiot, who may even grow up some day and become a decent person. The point is that this kind of language perpetuates a culture of objectification which in turn perpetuates the rape culture. It's worth pointing that out explicitly IMO.

[nomorenomore08]

197. Thing is, you don't *know* (based on one comment) whether someone's just trying to be "edgy"

or is genuinely hateful. And there are instances in life where a person can't afford to take that chance.

[riverbendviewgal]

152. They are indocrinated in this belief that women are objects to hurt

watch the video...

We buy the products and watch the shows...so we are all to blame.

#!

Why are so many TV reality shows that people are hurt on in feelings and actually physically hurt? Becuase we are taught from a young age to accept and want to see this..

[The Second Stone]

155. There are billions of idiots on the internet

are we going to get worked up over ever drunken tweet, or can we just agree that drunken posts from random dimwits trying to gross out their sloshed friends needn't be responded to as though it were a White House press release?

[Sheepshank]

156. As a more mature woman...aged beyond being sexually exploited in the same manner.....

...as younger women, I see an interesting trend.

As time goes on and more women demand and obtain equality in all facets of life, the harder a certain subgroup of men work to inhibit that progression and indeed try to regress the march forward.

I wonder if this subgroup of men don't realize that they relevance is NOT predicated upon the suppression of 50% of the population. I wonder if somehow they feel like their god-given "power" and authority rests solely on the subjugation of others and not by the magnitude of their own personal endeavors?

[pipi_k]

158. Seriously, who is calling

this bunch of neanderthals "men"??

They're not men.

They're boys. I don't care how old they are, either.

Although some sound like they have barely crossed the line into full puberty, in which case, they are young and stupid and it's possible that there could be some hope for them as they get older, given some guidance.

As for the rest, whether they're 21 or 51...

They are not Men.

Little boys in big bodies, that's all they are. Obnoxious and pathetic.

[Nye Bevan]

167. There's plenty of fucked-up bigotry, posted by both sexes and all ages, all over the net.

[closeupready]

168. why? Ask Sarah Palin or Donald Trump.

The sad irony is I think Jolie is Republican, though I could be wrong on that.

[Common Sense Party]

206. She is a registered Independent.

Allegedly she is no fan of President Obama.

[dawg]

171. What I don't understand, is why so many people get defensive ...

everytime someone points out examples of the misogyny, which is, unfortunately, pretty solidly ingrained into our culture.

No one is saying that all men think like these punks, but it would also be wrong to say that they are just a few bad apples in an otherwise wonderful barrel. Oh, and women sometimes suck too. But that is beside the point. We have a serious problem with gender relations in this country (and everywhere, probably), and unless we start taking it seriously, that will never change.

[redqueen]

175. Excellent question.

Better to just say "a generation of increasingly misogynist people" because as you said, too many women do this shit, too.

And that way you get slightly fewer kneejerking type responses.

[Common Sense Party]

191. "No one is saying that all men think like these punks"

Post #1 in this thread APPEARS to be saying just that. Since that poster will not clarify her comments, many are left to believe that some people DO think that ALL men think like this.

[nomorenomore08]

193. "Is" and "has the potential to be" are not the same. For one thing.

Secondly, in the interest of brevity, a poster may not always perfectly articulate his/her meaning. From that particular poster's previous posts, I know that "men" doesn't mean "all men." Nor am I emotionally invested in being on her, or anyone else's, "good/bad guys list."

Bottom line, post #1 is not slurring all adult male humans. If it were, I would probably alert on it, assuming I cared enough to do so.

[Common Sense Party]

194. Even when asked, however, the poster refuses to clarify or better articulate.

She won't even say if she really means "most" men.

[nomorenomore08]

196. Maybe she means "some men are like that, others have the potential to be (or not be)."

I figure all humans, more or less, have the potential for good and evil in us. But I can only speak for myself.

[Common Sense Party]

198. Maybe so. It seems we'll never know.

But "some men are like that, others have the potential to be (or not be)" is a far cry from "this is how the men and boys today see women and girls," would you not agree?

[nomorenomore08]

200. Superficially, yes, it's quite different.

But again, I don't necessarily take "men" to mean "all men." On the other hand, having to always specify "some men" kind of dilutes the argument, when you're addressing what you see as a serious, widespread problem.

[Common Sense Party]

203. I don't think it dilutes the argument at all. On the contrary, I think an honest

argument is infinitely more powerful than a broadbrush.

Obesity in the U.S. is a serious, widespread problem, but I wouldn't ever suggest that all Americans are obese, because it's simply not true and laughable on its face.

[nomorenomore08]

208. Okay, I'll try to explain it how I see it...

If I were able to simply place the "problem" in a little box - labeled "some men" - and ignore it, then how am I helping to improve the situation? Obviously I'm not.

The point of placing the onus on "men" generally is not to say that all men are bad. If anything, I see it as appealing to our "better" - more thoughtful, more humane - side, so that we'll hopefully at least consider our possible role in things. In practical terms, there may not be a great deal you or I can do, but merely thinking about these issues is the first step toward something.

Feel free to disagree with me completely if you wish. This is just one possible take.

[Common Sense Party]

211. Who says you have to "ignore it"? The first step to problem solving is to accurately

DEFINE THE PROBLEM.

Defining includes having an accurate calculation of the size, scope and extent of the problem.

"Americans are fat" is a weak, overly broad definition of the problem.

"33.8% of American adults and 17.8% of American children are obese" is much more accurate--and can even be more narrowly defined, so that we can target specific problem areas.

No one says you have to ignore the problem once you have defined it.

But how do you begin to solve it without first being aware of how widespread it is?

[nomorenomore08]

212. "But how do you begin to solve it without first being aware of how widespread it is?"

That's kind of what I was getting at, in my clumsy way. But when it's not something so easily quantifiable as say, the percentage of Americans who are obese, I think it's easy to put the "bad guys" in one neat category and yourself in another, and feel satisfied that you aren't part of the problem. When in reality, things aren't quite that simple.

Look, I'm not real fond of the whole "collective guilt" thing. I (mostly) don't subscribe to it in my own life. But that has nothing to do with my own potential to be a better human.

[Common Sense Party]

214. I absolutely agree that it is not so simple.

But I also think SOME people want to make it more simple (simplistic) than it really is.

It's much easier to say 'men and boys treat women this way/think of women as objects' than it is to say, "Not all men are misogynist jerks, probably a minority are, but it is still far too many--and look at the results, look how it can impact women."

If you like being found guilty by association then I guess there is no problem.

I find it unfair and specious to be lumped in with the bad apples just because I may share the same gender or the same skin color or whatever. For example:

You're male. Some males are sexist pigs. It's easier to say "men are sexist pigs." Ergo, you are a sexist pig.

You're Caucasian. Some Caucasians are racist jerks. It's easier to say "Caucasians are racist jerks." Ergo, you're a racist jerk.

Yes, OBVIOUSLY we can all be better human beings. But accusing everyone in a group of the rotten behavior committed by a minority of the group is a really lousy tactic to try to motivate people to change their behavior. It's dishonest.

Well, I've said my peace. I've nothing more to add to (or detract from, as the case may be) this discussion. It has been a pleasure conversing with you.

[nomorenomore08]

216. Okay. I guess I've just learned not to take these things personally.

It's only text on a screen, after all. Have a good one.

[bayareamike]

182. Holy generalizations, Batman

So, based on the actions of 0.000001% of young men you feel that you have sufficient evidence to generalize about the rest? Interesting. You're wrong, but you're entitled to this thread nonetheless.

If I am to partake in these sweeping generalizations, however, I would point out that I am a 20-something male with dozens of 20-something male friends who do not think like this.

Also, apparently I will be a raging misogynist because I like meat. I imagine all that whey protein for weightlifting won't help either. Damn it.

[HockeyMom]

185. She can do with her boobs whatever she wants

Plus, for all the STUPID men who think boobs are there for THEM, wrong. Boobs are there for BABIES to be nourished from, if a woman chooses to have children and feed them that way.

Personally, I myself would not do what Jolie did and not from any body imagine kind of thing. My personal feeling is that the health care INDUSTRY has far too much control over us as it is now. This just adds to it.

I know many won't agree with me, but for myself I don't want any medical intervention at all, for anything.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

187. HOW did a generation of young women's brains get f-ed up enough to produce this bigotry about Jolie

By the way, I got these tweets from an article where the author seemed obsessed with repeating "menz", "dudebro" and "virgin boys" over and over, yet completely disregarded the hefty amount of "girlz" posting bemoaning Brad's loss and calling Angelina all sorts of names.

[Warren DeMontague]

188. Uh, that's like totally different

or something

[maddezmom]

189. Yuck, thank god most people don't broad brush all women based on these

Idiots!

[Common Sense Party]

195. This is how the women and girls today see women and girls.

I guess.

[maddezmom]

199. I see what you did there

. JFTR, it isn't how this women sees other women or girls just as I am sure the tweets in the OP are not indicative of all men just some random assholes on the net.

[Common Sense Party]

201. I agree. I think the people who are rude and hateful on anonymous sites like Twitter

are a (thankfully) small percentage of our population.

[Upton]

210. Those women aren't responsible for their actions..

because it's all the fault of the patriarchy..or something like that.

[Harmony Blue]

233. +1 I fear for the young generation of women

more than the young men. I don't even bother dating young women because majority are so out of touch with reality (texting), rude, and mean spirited. I tend to date women that are closer to my age (30) or older as they are more mature, intelligent and have empathy.

[Apophis]

241. Good luck getting a comment from the OB on that.

Only the horrible menz are evil enough to talk like that.

[nomorenomore08]

192. The world is filled with idiots and assholes. Always has been.

And people wonder why I'm not more sociable IRL...

[yawnmaster]

223. Yep, always... it's just easier to see them now. eom

[still_one]

205. Sorry but a lot of creeps have been screwed up for a long time, not just now

[yawnmaster]

222. You are completely correct...With today's technology they are able to be more visible...

through avenues such as twitter.
The crap has always been in society. Communication technology has allowed that crap to float so we can see it.
It says nothing specifically about any generation.

[freshwest]

207. alp227, thank you so much for being what you are, right now, and enlightening us all on the problem.

You are much appreciated by myself and others, much so than just for your many reports that you give us here and make DU a 'go-to' place for information. Respect...

[yawnmaster]

221. I wouldn't call anecdotal information that is meant to represent an entire generation very good...

information.
I would call it hyperbole, and perhaps there are other names for it.

[freshwest]

224. I was writing to Alp227, not generalizing. Take that up with him. EOM.

[yawnmaster]

226. No problem, I thought you were replying to the OP. eom

[Tikki]

238. This whole matter is between Ms. Jolie and her Doctor...

I hope Doctors will appear in public and talk about preventive surgeries and genetic testing.
And I hope that someday medical insurance will cover some of these elective preventive strategies and
the reconstruction costs, too.

If some stupid kids think Ms. Jolie and her husband didn't discuss this first, well that is just their immaturity showing.


Tikki

[Ganja Ninja]

239. Somehow in America it became cool to be a total asshole.

I don't know but maybe it has something to do with things like shock jocks and a media culture that spawned them. Occasionally people blurt out something they eventually have to pay for but in certain sectors of the media the more classless and tasteless a person can be the more they prosper. Somehow over the top and unacceptable behavior got downgraded to "controversial" and it's gotten worse year after year until now total douche-bags are heroes and role models.

[yawnmaster]

243. It is just easier for the assholes to become visible and communicate to a wider audience than...

in the past.
They have better tools.
I'm not sure there are more assholes, only that we are more aware of the assholes.

[nomorenomore08]

244. Absolutely. See Adam Carolla, Tucker Max, Daniel Tosh et. al.

Even at 13 listening to "Loveline" I knew Carolla was a dick, and time has only vindicated me since then.