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ProSense

(116,464 posts)
Wed May 15, 2013, 09:26 PM May 2013

"The seizure of AP's phone records is legal"

The DOJ's Freedom of Speech Breach

The seizure of AP's phone records is legal, but that doesn't make it an acceptable course of action for the Justice Department to take.

On Monday, news broke that federal officials had secretly seized the phone records of Associated Press reporters. AP President Gary Pruitt reacted with understandable anger, calling the seizure "an overbroad collection of the telephone communications of The Associated Press and its reporters." Is Pruitt right? There are two questions that need to be answered. Was the seizure legal? And, if so, was it justified?

The answer to to the first question, at least based on what we know now, is "probably." A subpoena for records as part of an investigation, as opposed to a search warrant, does not require judicial approval. Intuitively, it may seem as if the First Amendment should shield the press from government investigators. But, at least under current Supreme Court doctrine, this isn't the case. In the 1972 landmark case Branzburg v. Hayes, the Court held that "[t]he First Amendment does not relieve a newspaper reporter of the obligation that all citizens have to respond to a grand jury subpoena and answer questions relevant to a criminal investigation." This decision was controversial, and it could be argued that the federal courts should interpret the First Amendment to provide a more robust shield for journalistic activities. Based on what we know now, the subpoena was probably legal under existing law.

Of course, as the majority in Branzburg pointed out, even assuming for the sake of argument that the First Amendment doesn't provide for a journalistic privilege against investigation, legislatures are free to create a statutory journalistic privilege. Some state legislatures have done so. Congress has not, which is worth remembering when considering some of the rather opportunistic outrage from some Republicans about the AP story. Newly minted civil libertarian Darrell Issa, for example, has apparently undergone a remarkable transformation since he voted against legislation offering greater protections to telecommunications companies in 2007. And many a Republican (joined by a disgraceful number of Democrats) didn't object when the Bush administration engaged in warrantless wiretapping that plausibly violated the First Amendment and certainly violated valid congressional statutes.

But, the cynical and hypocritical nature of Republican opposition to the AP spying doesn't make it wrong. And, similarly, even if we assume for the sake of argument that the seizure of phone records was legal in this case, this doesn't justify the policy. The executive branch has the constitutional authority to engage in many things that aren't wise or prudent, and we should expect the Obama administration to do more than the minimum required by the Supreme Court when considering the free speech rights of journalists.

- more -

http://prospect.org/article/dojs-freedom-speech-breach#

That's the point a lot of people seem to be missing. You can be outraged about policy, but that doesn't make it illegal. I also remember a lot of people citing Branzburg v. Hayes during the Plame investigation.

The AP's being investigated by a grand jury for who they coordinated with in Congress over the leak.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022848186

Oh, this is good: House Republican 2012 hearing demanding DOJ subpoena reporters (video)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022847992

WHOA! WH Asks Sen. Schumer to Re-Introduce 'Media Shield Law' Bill
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022846992

SPJ supports shield law compromise

11/4/2009

Leaders of the Society of Professional Journalists welcome the compromise the Obama administration, senators and news organizations reached on a federal shield law that would protect journalists, their sources and the public’s right to know. Although SPJ does not believe S. 448 is a perfect bill, the Society’s leaders carefully examined the proposed legislation, and on behalf of its more than 8,000 members, have decided to support the protections granted to journalists.

<...>

Although SPJ leaders are pleased with many of the revisions in the latest compromise, such as a broader definition of who will be covered, they are disappointed that the new bill does not cover “non-confidential” information...However, SPJ is pleased that the revised legislation provides a shield for journalists protecting their confidential sources in criminal and civil proceedings. The bill covers subpoenas issued by grand juries and special prosecutors, in addition to prosecutors, civil litigants and criminal defendants. This revision requires that the party seeking confidential information first exhausts alternative sources; proves that there is a high need for the information; and conducts a public-interest balancing test before a federal court will compel disclosure of source information.

In criminal cases, reporters may be forced to demonstrate that there is clear, convincing evidence that the public’s right to know is more important than disclosure of requested information. However, in civil proceedings, the legislation provides more protection, including in cases regarding the Privacy Act. The legislation also states that federal judges may overturn subpoenas for reporters’ testimony if the judges determine that the public’s right to know outweighs the need for the government to know the source.

Another change in the legislation that is attracting attention is the inclusion of bloggers, freelance journalists and student journalists to the definition of protected individuals. To define a journalist, a test is applied to assess if the person is regularly gathering information for public dissemination, instead of by whether or not the journalist is paid by a news organization -- a definition that was included in previous drafts of the bill.

- more -

http://www.spj.org/news.asp?ref=936

Oh, this is good: House Republican 2012 hearing demanding DOJ subpoena reporters (video)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022847992

WHOA! WH Asks Sen. Schumer to Re-Introduce 'Media Shield Law' Bill
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022846992

SPJ supports shield law compromise

11/4/2009

Leaders of the Society of Professional Journalists welcome the compromise the Obama administration, senators and news organizations reached on a federal shield law that would protect journalists, their sources and the public’s right to know. Although SPJ does not believe S. 448 is a perfect bill, the Society’s leaders carefully examined the proposed legislation, and on behalf of its more than 8,000 members, have decided to support the protections granted to journalists.

<...>

Although SPJ leaders are pleased with many of the revisions in the latest compromise, such as a broader definition of who will be covered, they are disappointed that the new bill does not cover “non-confidential” information...However, SPJ is pleased that the revised legislation provides a shield for journalists protecting their confidential sources in criminal and civil proceedings. The bill covers subpoenas issued by grand juries and special prosecutors, in addition to prosecutors, civil litigants and criminal defendants. This revision requires that the party seeking confidential information first exhausts alternative sources; proves that there is a high need for the information; and conducts a public-interest balancing test before a federal court will compel disclosure of source information.

In criminal cases, reporters may be forced to demonstrate that there is clear, convincing evidence that the public’s right to know is more important than disclosure of requested information. However, in civil proceedings, the legislation provides more protection, including in cases regarding the Privacy Act. The legislation also states that federal judges may overturn subpoenas for reporters’ testimony if the judges determine that the public’s right to know outweighs the need for the government to know the source.

Another change in the legislation that is attracting attention is the inclusion of bloggers, freelance journalists and student journalists to the definition of protected individuals. To define a journalist, a test is applied to assess if the person is regularly gathering information for public dissemination, instead of by whether or not the journalist is paid by a news organization -- a definition that was included in previous drafts of the bill.

- more -

http://www.spj.org/news.asp?ref=936
47 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
"The seizure of AP's phone records is legal" (Original Post) ProSense May 2013 OP
LOL...... Logical May 2013 #1
Guess what ProSense May 2013 #2
Fine with it being legal. But your misleading title is more proof of, well you know what. n-t Logical May 2013 #3
'Misleading'? Huh? randome May 2013 #4
"Fine with it being legal." ProSense May 2013 #6
Wait, ProSense May 2013 #5
You cut it off only to show the legal part, not the doesn't make it an acceptable part, and.... Logical May 2013 #9
WTF? ProSense May 2013 #13
Are you disputing the "doesn't make it an acceptable" part? If not then why not include it? You... Logical May 2013 #15
Because ProSense May 2013 #16
LOL, not accurate but makes your point I guess. You have PLENTY of room! Just add the.... Logical May 2013 #17
Yes, ProSense May 2013 #18
You posted a misleading title on purpose. And refuse to change it. Totally your right but.... Logical May 2013 #19
Yup, I posted it. Enjoy! n/t ProSense May 2013 #20
I posted their current stance on this incident. With an accurate title. Here you go.... Logical May 2013 #21
Cool, this is ProSense May 2013 #23
LOL, many things Bush did was legal also. I guess that makes it OK with you. n-t Logical May 2013 #24
Flashback ProSense May 2013 #25
Whats this have to do with your misleading post title? n-t Logical May 2013 #26
Why you don't like the title of the other thread either? n/t ProSense May 2013 #27
you would impeach Obama if you could. just like Rand Paul. MjolnirTime May 2013 #34
You are a liar, I would not! But Obama has made mistakes! n-t Logical May 2013 #40
One DU poster is falling all over himself to show that it isn't. But I have yet to read one good bluestate10 May 2013 #7
Well if you've put the fear of God in whistle blowers and sources you don't need to tap anyone. dkf May 2013 #8
Bullshit. ProSense May 2013 #11
If you are only aiming at 1 story you don't need 20 phone lines over 2 months reaching 100+ dkf May 2013 #14
And don't forget they were to tell the AP about BEFORE they did it. Lady Freedom Returns May 2013 #43
I agree Harmony Blue May 2013 #30
+1. Lady Freedom Returns May 2013 #41
... Matariki May 2013 #10
You add nothing but an ignorant insult. so cute with your little cheerleading Cha May 2013 #31
right Matariki May 2013 #47
Legal ? SamKnause May 2013 #12
That's a mighty big freaking broad brush you got there and Cha May 2013 #32
No kidding... Harmony Blue May 2013 #37
Congress needs to get off their asses and repeal the statute... kentuck May 2013 #22
Um, what? nt Deep13 May 2013 #28
Maybe this will help. ProSense May 2013 #29
Happy to have been the 5th Rec.. Cha May 2013 #33
i guessed the OP's name before i saw it nt markiv May 2013 #35
BFD. Cha May 2013 #45
It is. Unfortunately, it is. Thanks, Patriot Act... Taverner May 2013 #36
Its legality has nothing to do with the John Ashcroft's Patriot Act. n/t ProSense May 2013 #38
Warrentless Wiretapping. Taverner May 2013 #39
That has nothing to do with the AP case. n/t ProSense May 2013 #44
DU rec...nt SidDithers May 2013 #42
Kick! n/t ProSense May 2013 #46
 

Logical

(22,457 posts)
1. LOL......
Wed May 15, 2013, 09:33 PM
May 2013

Most people would have titled this post......

"The seizure of AP's phone records is legal, but that doesn't make it an acceptable"

only you would title it

"The seizure of AP's phone records is legal"

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
2. Guess what
Wed May 15, 2013, 09:39 PM
May 2013
Most people would have titled this post......

"The seizure of AP's phone records is legal, but that doesn't make it an acceptable"

only you would title it

"The seizure of AP's phone records is legal"

...the title of the OP doesn't change the fact that the action was legal, but that doesn't mean that you have to find the title "acceptable."

You're feigning laughter (to hide disappointment) that the action was legal.

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
4. 'Misleading'? Huh?
Wed May 15, 2013, 09:47 PM
May 2013

And if a grand jury is involved, that changes the equation quite a lot, I think.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022848186

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font]
[hr]

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
5. Wait,
Wed May 15, 2013, 09:50 PM
May 2013

"Fine with it being legal. But your misleading title is more proof of, well you know what."

...how is the title "misleading"? Is it "misleading" people about the legality?

I mean, the "acceptable" is subjective, an opinon about policy, and in no way changes the fact that the action is legal.

 

Logical

(22,457 posts)
9. You cut it off only to show the legal part, not the doesn't make it an acceptable part, and....
Wed May 15, 2013, 09:57 PM
May 2013

don't act like you didn't do it on purpose.

Be happy, you are getting free kicks without having to do it yourself.

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
13. WTF?
Wed May 15, 2013, 10:02 PM
May 2013

"You cut it off only to show the legal part, not the doesn't make it an acceptable part, and...don't act like you didn't do it on purpose. "

Yes, I clearly did it "on purpose."

Are you disputing the point made in the title?

No, you nitpicking because you're pissed about something.



 

Logical

(22,457 posts)
15. Are you disputing the "doesn't make it an acceptable" part? If not then why not include it? You...
Wed May 15, 2013, 10:21 PM
May 2013

can always edit the post and add the real articles title instead of your edited version.

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
16. Because
Wed May 15, 2013, 10:22 PM
May 2013

"Are you disputing the "doesn't make it an acceptable" part? If not then why not include it? You...
can always edit the post and add the real articles title instead of your edited version. "

...this is my OP, not yours. I don't want to edit it because there is nothing wrong with it.


 

Logical

(22,457 posts)
17. LOL, not accurate but makes your point I guess. You have PLENTY of room! Just add the....
Wed May 15, 2013, 10:28 PM
May 2013

part that you don't like. Use the actual title instead of your abridged version.




ProSense

(116,464 posts)
18. Yes,
Wed May 15, 2013, 10:30 PM
May 2013

"LOL, not accurate but makes your point I guess. "

...it make my point, and remember:

"Fine with it being legal."
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2850169

See, you agree with my point.

 

Logical

(22,457 posts)
19. You posted a misleading title on purpose. And refuse to change it. Totally your right but....
Wed May 15, 2013, 10:34 PM
May 2013

it is telling and also wrong. But carry on. Lots of Kicks for you. So celebrate!

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
23. Cool, this is
Wed May 15, 2013, 10:57 PM
May 2013

the best part:

"Attorney General Holder and President Obama have once again shown by their actions that their words about transparency and government openness are hollow," said Albarado, city editor at the Arkansas Democrat-Gazette in Little Rock.

"I shudder to think that, if it hadn't been for the DOJ's supposedly 'strict' rules for acquiring evidence from news organizations, AP might not have ever learned about this administration's assault on its First Amendment rights.

"This incident proves once again the need for a federal Shield Law. Prosecutors, unlike reporters, have subpoena power to compel testimony, yet lazy prosecutors often prefer to go after reporters' notes and records rather than do the hard investigative work to dig out information without trampling on the First Amendment."

I understand why the SPJ is outraged, and it doesn't change the fact that the action was legal.

Thanks for the link.

bluestate10

(10,942 posts)
7. One DU poster is falling all over himself to show that it isn't. But I have yet to read one good
Wed May 15, 2013, 09:54 PM
May 2013

word about any democrat from that poster.

 

dkf

(37,305 posts)
8. Well if you've put the fear of God in whistle blowers and sources you don't need to tap anyone.
Wed May 15, 2013, 09:55 PM
May 2013

That's a great way to keep the public from knowing what is going on. Yay for the administration right?

The freedom of the press is the people's way of knowing what is going on in their government. This doesn't violate the law, it violates the people's trust.

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
11. Bullshit.
Wed May 15, 2013, 09:59 PM
May 2013

"Well if you've put the fear of God in whistle blowers and sources you don't need to tap anyone."

Why not call those who outed a CIA agent a "whistleblower"?

Investigating Plame was justified, and so is taking action of a similar nature.

 

dkf

(37,305 posts)
14. If you are only aiming at 1 story you don't need 20 phone lines over 2 months reaching 100+
Wed May 15, 2013, 10:08 PM
May 2013

reporters.

Why didn't they get the records for the entire NYT to find Lewis Libby?

Is that the government you want?

Lady Freedom Returns

(14,120 posts)
43. And don't forget they were to tell the AP about BEFORE they did it.
Thu May 16, 2013, 12:29 AM
May 2013

I have had to deal with this type of thing before. Had a "Crash Coarse" if you will back in the day.

They are to tell the News agency about it beforehand, then both sides go to talk with a judge. The judge would take a look, make sure that all other avenues have been taken, then make sure the scope is not to large.
And with it being the Department of Justus that was doing it, Attorney General Eric H. Holder was the one to sign off after all this. He was not supposed to pass it off to ANYONE!

I state what Rep. Zoe Lofgren (D-Calif.) said: “It seems to me clear that the actions of the department have in fact impaired the First Amendment.”

Lady Freedom Returns

(14,120 posts)
41. +1.
Thu May 16, 2013, 12:15 AM
May 2013

Sad part is many can't seem to understand this. And many don't understand that there are regulations and procedures for getting this info that were jumped over. They did not want to wait on the courts so they just threw all that was put in place after Watergate out the window.

That is why they MUST pass the "Press Shield Law" since DOJ had decided they can side step procedures. Hopefully they will get it instated before the US citizens are totally blinded.



Rep. Zoe Lofgren (D-Calif.) said: “It seems to me clear that the actions of the department have in fact impaired the First Amendment.”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/on-capitol-hill-holder-to-face-questions-on-ap-phone-records-irs-scandal/2013/05/15/d0dfc52c-bd70-11e2-89c9-3be8095fe767_story.html

Cha

(297,154 posts)
31. You add nothing but an ignorant insult. so cute with your little cheerleading
Wed May 15, 2013, 11:31 PM
May 2013

outfit when FACTS are presented.

SamKnause

(13,091 posts)
12. Legal ?
Wed May 15, 2013, 10:02 PM
May 2013

Everything that is ILLEGAL is LEGAL in this country.

The U.S. does not play by the rules.

They make them up as they go.


Cha

(297,154 posts)
32. That's a mighty big freaking broad brush you got there and
Wed May 15, 2013, 11:33 PM
May 2013

detracts nothing from the facts in the OP.

kentuck

(111,079 posts)
22. Congress needs to get off their asses and repeal the statute...
Wed May 15, 2013, 10:52 PM
May 2013

...if they want to do anything about it?

Instead, they continue to pollute the environment with their wind and bluster.

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
29. Maybe this will help.
Wed May 15, 2013, 11:25 PM
May 2013

Two days ago, Michael Isikoff made this point:

ISIKOFF: Well, there are Justice Department regulations on this who -- which do state these subpoenas for news organizations should be crafted as narrowly as possible for a limited period of time. And that`s what the "A.P." in that extraordinary letter it wrote to Attorney General Holder today saying seems to be flouted here.

But they`re regulations, they`re not laws. And this is a criminal investigation and they do have the absolute legal authority to do this any way they want. But they would have to explain why they`re not following their own guidelines and regulations.

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/51878006/ns/msnbc-rachel_maddow_show/


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