General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsPregnant girlfriend tricked into taking abortion pill; 'The baby was lost
TAMPA - John Andrew Welden did not want to be a father, authorities say.
So when his girlfriend got pregnant, prosecutors say, Welden faked a prescription for an abortion pill, switched a label so the medication appeared to be a common antibiotic, and gave her the drug.
snip
The woman didn't have medical insurance so Welden arranged for her to see his father, Stephen Welden, a practicing OB/GYN doctor. On March 28, the woman had a sonogram and learned her unborn baby was viable and healthy, Muldrow said.
"In a cold, premeditated fashion," Muldrow said, Welden forged his father's signature to obtain a prescription for the abortion drug Misoprostol, also known as Cytotec. On March 29, Welden obtained the drug from a local pharmacy and removed the label, replacing it with one that said Amoxicillin, a common antibiotic, and the woman's name.
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/breakingnews/os-pregnant-girlfriend-tricked-abortion-pill-20130516,0,3219897.story
MineralMan
(146,284 posts)can spend some time in the custody of the state. Total asshole.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)el_bryanto
(11,804 posts)IdaBriggs
(10,559 posts)Just because she's good enough to fool around with doesn't mean you want her to be the mother of your children.
It sounds like assault, tho. Terrible story. She was a fool for sleeping with such a scummy, scummy man.
Puzzledtraveller
(5,937 posts)Whether or not the Plan B drug could have that effect there will be nonetheless idiots who will try to slip this in or trick someone into taking it. I still support it's availability.
BeeBee
(1,074 posts)Puzzledtraveller
(5,937 posts)Young Johnny is too stupid to know that.
SoCalDem
(103,856 posts)Once the blastocyst embeds, it's a pregnancy.
There are MANY reasons why it may be lost, but Plan B is a sketchy one. Perhaps the dose of hormones upset the applecart and started a cascade of other things that may have ended it, but the pill itself is unlikely to have aborted the pregnancy.,. especially a viable one.
Plan B is all about preventing implantation...
RU-46 is the sequence of pills that can abort a pregnancy, but it's not something that would be unknown to the woman, and it's not an easy thing to undergo.
EOTE
(13,409 posts)It states that he gave her Cytotec, which is an abortion inducing drug.
IdaBriggs
(10,559 posts)I brought up "Plan B" because it is widely mis characterized as an "abortion drug".
Please do not mistakenly think I agree; it is something that we will have to deal with tho - the consequences of the mis characterization, coupled with the abundance of Idiots.
HockeyMom
(14,337 posts)if implantation had already occurred. Supposedly she already had a positive pregnancy test.
IdaBriggs
(10,559 posts)I hope the information is clear that it PREVENTS pregnancy (in which case, we will most likely see it slipped into the drinks of "one night stands" as part of breakfast), and not CAUSES miscarriages/abortions (because slipping anything like this into someone's drink equals assault, IMHO).
Brickbat
(19,339 posts)IdaBriggs
(10,559 posts)My point was that I expect this type of assault to become very common place in the next few years (specifically, "tricking" women into taking things to prevent a completed pregnancy).
Many women (who one would assume would be very vested in being educated) do not realize that the effectiveness of birth control pills may be impacted by taking other medications; idiots rarely read the instructions, and therefore I suspect this type of assault is likely to increase.
And yes, I still support "Plan B" being released. I think we need to make sure that education/information is clear on what it does/does not do.
Sigh. It won't fix everything, tho.
ZombieHorde
(29,047 posts)It has no known effect on pregnant women.
http://www.fda.gov/NewsEvents/Newsroom/PressAnnouncements/ucm350230.htm
pnwmom
(108,973 posts)Sheepshank
(12,504 posts)and you could repeatedly punch a woman in the stomach until she aborts the child...right up until you decide to keep a child. Or he could have badgered her into an abortion at a clinic. Seriously, this guy could have chosen an abortion method one way or the other...this situation is *that* scummy.
libodem
(19,288 posts)I didn't know there was an actual abortion pill.
Brickbat
(19,339 posts)libodem
(19,288 posts)I must have thought plan B was the only product available. Learned something today.
kestrel91316
(51,666 posts)libodem
(19,288 posts)Seriously I thought all it we had were pills to stop implantation. I was uninformed. Too, bad it was used in a nefarious manner in this case. The poor mother.
I would think you couldn't be too far along?
librechik
(30,674 posts)better check snopes on this...An abortion pill would be big news.
CBGLuthier
(12,723 posts)Misoprostol is a synthetic prostaglandin E1 (PGE1) analog that is used for the prevention of nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drug (NSAID) induced gastric ulcers, to treat missed miscarriage, to induce labor, and as an abortifacient. The latter use is controversial in the United States. Misoprostol was invented and marketed by G.D. Searle & Company (now Pfizer) under the trade name Cytotec, but other brand-name and generic formulations are now available as well.
Now of course this being wikipedia it is possible there is error but it does seem to be accurate.
librechik
(30,674 posts)it was criminal to give it to her and was no doubt done without doctor supervision.
Otherwise we would be hearing a lot more about this drug as an option for unwanted pregnancies. Having a miscarriage or abortion is painful and dangerous.
Brickbat
(19,339 posts)Codeine
(25,586 posts)Around 25% of abortions are pill-induced, usually termed as a "medical abortion." It's remarkably safe and has a very high effectiveness rate.
Ilsa
(61,692 posts)Stimulating an abortion. Plus, the patient should be under a doctor's care in follow-up to make certain the entire conceptus is voided and the mother's hormones get back to normal levels.
I don't know if RU-486 is used much in the US, and I thought there was a second pill to help complete the abortion.
I believe in choice. The boyfriend interfered in that. I'm not convinced that a murder charge is necessary unless the pregnancy was near term. He should certainly be charged with fraudulently writing a prescription and endangering the woman's life by having her go through this without medical instruction and supervision.
I wonder if the baby would have been a psychopath like him?
Brickbat
(19,339 posts)kestrel91316
(51,666 posts)We have already fought plenty of battles over it, BTW. Just ask any "prolifer".
It's different from Plan B, the morning after pill. And it is the most common way for women to get an early abortion. Nonsurgical and much cheaper and safer.
pnwmom
(108,973 posts)that prevents pregnancy but doesn't affect a pre-existing pregnancy.
The Rethugs are always lumping the two together, which is why people are often confused.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)Last edited Thu May 16, 2013, 11:15 AM - Edit history (1)
I know this is a criminal act but this a wrong road to champion, as far as I'm concerned. It will roll back our options if a fetus is considered a fully capable breathing born life, at 2-3 months gestation. They already occasionally, lock up women who have a miscarriage.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)We don't need to call it "murder". As long as the penalty is still the same.
libodem
(19,288 posts)Deserved. This was a callous act of cowardice. I'm with you on that!
PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)A forced abortion or miscarriage is totally an assault against the woman, not the fetus. It should not center on the fetus at all, which is part of the woman's body. A woman's pregnancy becomes part of HER identity and personhood while she's pregnant. Laws that bypass her and give any status or protection to the fetus regardless of gestation are harmful and discriminatory against women, and devalue women as persons.
Also, I think the issue of 'choice' in this situation is a red herring. If an assaulted woman's pregnancy is unwanted - even if she gets assaulted on the way to the abortion clinic and miscarries, it's just as serious a crime as an assault against a woman with a much-wanted pregnancy.
uppityperson
(115,677 posts)mwrguy
(3,245 posts)He assaulted his girlfriend.
treestar
(82,383 posts)of some kind. The abortion is murder thing muddies the waters, as the right wing wants.
Abortion was allowed to be illegal at common law. After 1973, it would not be absolutely illegal. Still for cases like this, it should be considered unlawful abortion. Here the label matters. Allow it to be called murder and it plays right into right wing hands.
PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)The "Protection of Unborn Children Act", fetal homicide, et al are pure BS.
A forced abortion or miscarriage is totally an assault against the woman, not the fetus. It should not center on the fetus at all, which is part of the woman's body. A woman's pregnancy becomes part of HER identity and personhood while she's pregnant. Laws that bypass her and give any status or protection to the fetus regardless of gestation are harmful and discriminatory against women, and devalue women as persons.
Also, I think the issue of 'choice' in this situation is a red herring. If an assaulted woman's pregnancy is unwanted - even if she gets assaulted on the way to the abortion clinic and miscarries, it's just as serious a crime as an assault against a woman with a much-wanted pregnancy.
treestar
(82,383 posts)But you would have a point, too. It is an assault. The latest crimes sway people - like Ariel Castro, not a murderer, but an assaulter of women, but he's the latest and most famous and people hate to think he is less guilty than murderers are.
Weird.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Hopefully the young woman can find someone who isn't a vile piece of trash to father her future children.
What a horrible story.
TheMightyFavog
(13,770 posts)So bizzare.
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)I still don't get why he admitted the whole thing to the girl (did he want his classic bad-guy "AHA" -moment?) and then try to backtrack and pretend it was some pharmacy error....
Brickbat
(19,339 posts)I'm guessing that's the main issue.
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)The next day, Welden called his girlfriend with bad news. Her blood test apparently showed she had a bacterial infection and she would need to take Amoxicillin to clear it up.
On Good Friday, Lee said Welden showed up at her Tampa home with a care package that included the bottle of antibiotics. The label said the pills were A moxycillin .
"He told me to keep taking them. I was supposed to take three a day for days," she recalled of Welden's instructions.
Lee told ABC Action News she did not call her boyfriend's father to confirm she had a bacterial infection or that she needed to take the medication. Lee believed Welden was the love of her life and said she had no reason to not believe what he was telling her. She said Welden's father also never followed up with her after her initial visit.
FBI agents said Welden admitted to switching the pills and even scratched off any identifiers on the pills so Lee wouldn't suspect anything.
http://www.wptv.com/dpp/news/state/john-andrew-welden-tampa-man-accused-of-tricking-former-girlfriend-into-taking-abortion-pill
I know it's of no consolation to Ms. Lee, but she is fortunate to get out of this relationship NOW...Had they eventually gotten married, I'm guessing sooner or later Welden would set her up for a "tragic accident"
PotatoChip
(3,186 posts)If he didn't want to become a father, he should've taken the initiative to protect himself from becoming one, regardless of what his girlfriend was, or was not doing.
True, birth control options for men are few, but he (or any man) should never rely solely on the woman to prevent a pregnancy. This is a topic that has annoyed me for some time, now... I'm sure that with modern medicine, some other form (or perhaps even many forms) of BC options could be made available to men, if there was a higher demand for them.
Xithras
(16,191 posts)That's a common argument used against abortion. Swapping the genders does not make it any more valid.
Personally, I believe that both paternity and maternity should be optional. Women have the "out" of abortion if they don't want to carry a pregnancy. There should be an "out" for men as well (though I have no idea what the mechanism would be). No birth control is 100%.
PotatoChip
(3,186 posts)and fail to see how both men and women doing everything they can to prevent an unwanted pregnancy is an anti-choice argument.
Sometimes BC fails, which is why abortion should always be a safe and legal option. However, that doesn't change the fact that both partners need to do their best to prevent an unwanted pregnancy from happening in the first place.
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)doesn't NOT make it a sound point...How is it any different from:
"If (s)he didn't want to contract an STD, (s)he should've taken the initiative to protect (her/him)self from getting one, regardless of what (his/her) sex partner was/was not doing."
It's kinda simplistic, but the basis is still the same...
kestrel91316
(51,666 posts)Just watch.
libodem
(19,288 posts)PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)Except for a very few cases, they are usually used against women.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)This might even be a form of sexual assault.
SomethingFishy
(4,876 posts)Remember "Guns Don't Kill People". Which means that this "pill" doesn't cause Abortion.
We can't take away guns because it's not the guns fault. Well then they can't take away the pill because it's not the pill's fault.
badtoworse
(5,957 posts)For practicing medicine without a licence and also his father for prescribing it.
Sheldon Cooper
(3,724 posts)Read the story.
RebelOne
(30,947 posts)KamaAina
(78,249 posts)I would expect nothing less from the Orlando Sentinel, one of the most noxious RW rags in the land.
cbdo2007
(9,213 posts)MadrasT
(7,237 posts)No woman should EVER be forced to bear a child against her will
EVER
cbdo2007
(9,213 posts)No man should EVER be forced to pay child support for a baby they didn't want against their will
EVER
PotatoChip
(3,186 posts)If men don't want to father a child, they should take their own steps to prevent that, and not rely solely on the woman to prevent a pregnancy.
MotherPetrie
(3,145 posts)bayareamike
(602 posts)should it not be mutual? Having sex is a mutual decision (with the obvious exception of rape). Let's say a couple has sex and the woman becomes pregnant accidentally. The man in this case does not want a baby, but the woman wants to keep it. Who should suffer? I see two sides of this argument:
a) the woman gets to make the ultimate decision because the baby is carried inside of her body, and as such, plays a more important role in the pregnancy.
b) the decision is mutual because "it takes two to tango". While the mother has an obviously stronger connection to the child, the decision and resulting accident was a mutual mistake. Why does one half of the couple become more important in the decision making process? Coercing the male to take care of the child -- financially and otherwise -- for the rest of his life seems unfair as well. In your post, you assert that the man should've taken precautions; why isn't that a mutual responsibility? In a perfect world, it should be mutual and thus responsibility for the accident should also be shared mutually.
I tend to lean towards (b) simply because I see that as the more equitable decision. Again, this is in a perfect world where the two partners are equal members. I don't think in the real world this happens often.
Just musing on the subject.
Edit: although I should be clear: I am against forcing a woman to either have an abortion or bear a child unwillingly. Coercing a woman into either against her will is disgusting and objectively wrong. Is there a middle ground, such as adoption?
PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)MattBaggins
(7,898 posts)The court considers the needs and welfare of the child only... as they should.
You will be forced to pay support for the child... and that is not a good thing... that is a great thing.
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)No one can claim ignorance about where babies come from...A man could impregnate a hundred different women, and tell the court each time he "didn't want the baby" with little or no consequence...
There are some rare, extenuating, 'only-in-Florida' crazy-type cases where I WOULD heartily agree, but they occur only like 0.00004% of the time...
cbdo2007
(9,213 posts)I said that both parties had to work together to come up with the decision to have the baby or not, not that Men could just impregnate hundreds of women and walk away.
After a woman finds out she is pregnant, she notifies the man and they sit down with some kind of Lawyer/Social Worker person and they decide what is best for them both in their situation. It's all about negotiation and them talking through what each of their wants/needs are. I'm guessing NONE of those negotiations would end with the woman having the baby with the guy not at least agreeing to monetary compensation. If they can't come to an agreement, they kill the fetus and go on about their lives.
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)But I can't see it working for most people (reminds me of some dystopian sci-fi where men and women on first dates "negotiate" an agreement in advance how far they're gonna go)...The dynamics of male-female relationships are too complex, and the potential mother+father can't always be expected to sit back and think things through rationally with a mediator...
What if they're both 18? What if they are minors? What if one or both of them were already married? What if one is a foreign national? What about religious/cultural exemptions??
cbdo2007
(9,213 posts)but is making for some good discussion on here.
You can come up with a million "What if?" questions and they would be handled the same way all laws are handled, by state congresses, and just like marriage and immigration and dentist laws, they would go through as many "What if" scenarios they can think of. Just because there are lots of "What ifs" doesn't mean it isn't a good idea, it's just stuff that would have to be figured out.
Geez, all those same qustions can be asked of someone buying a car, but there are laws in place that answer the questions....what if the buyer is under 18? What if she already has a car? What if she wants to buy a car but is a foreign national? What if she wants to buy a car but there are religious differences with the car seller??
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)Buying a car is nothing more than a business transaction that almost everyone can remain level-headed and dispassionate about, because it's just simple numbers...Either it's something you want to buy and can afford, or isn't...
Relationships, pregnancy, love, emotions, and other matters of the heart have a habit of making people forget their best interests, and you can't expect a mediator to ever know the *full* story, or even half of it..
uppityperson
(115,677 posts)IdaBriggs
(10,559 posts)Congratulations!
IdaBriggs
(10,559 posts)You can mitigate those risks, but none of them are 100% "fool proof".
No sympathy for those who don't understand that "sex makes babies" (just because they don't want to pay for them).
cbdo2007
(9,213 posts)Those are the exact same examples they use to say women should not have abortions. Funny what happens when the genders change.
Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)If a man doesn't want to become a father he can abstain or make damn sure the condom doesn't have holes in it. If there is a birth control failure and the woman wants to go ahead with the pregnancy, well, that's the chance he took.
cbdo2007
(9,213 posts)....otherwise that's the chance HE took.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. I like how you think men cause babies.
Response to cbdo2007 (Reply #51)
Post removed
cbdo2007
(9,213 posts)HAHAHAHAHAHAHa. That's even funnier. More funnies please????
HappyMe
(20,277 posts)But it's also the chance the woman takes. If they aren't on the pill, then they should have a diaphragm. Planned Parenthood can provide both.
A man should wear a condom no matter what - std and birth control.
Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)But, if something happens, it's the woman's call.
treestar
(82,383 posts)It's entirely different to have to support a child as opposed to physically bearing one.
So this is one disadvantage men have. They don't have an absolute right to sex without babies while women do. It all seems to even out somehow.
MattBaggins
(7,898 posts)treestar
(82,383 posts)That's the complaint. Woman decides not to have abortion - man is stuck with it.
MattBaggins
(7,898 posts)The Straight Story
(48,121 posts)How about men have the choice in the first 9 months to not pay any child support after baby is born (his body, his choice for 18 years of having to work or go to jail) and the woman has the choice for an abortion.
Sounds fair.
treestar
(82,383 posts)That's how it probably shook out as it did.
The parties are equal until that point.
The Straight Story
(48,121 posts)Point being, their decision to have sex and her becoming pregnant impacts them both just in different ways.
Her body for 9 months, his for 18 years since he would have to pay support for a child he may not want or face jail time.
He is therefore impacted by her decision while he has no decision on hers.
treestar
(82,383 posts)That 9 months simple can't be equivalent in any part of male experience.
Same as the way he can't have the child if he wants it, he has to have it where he doesn't. Inequality, but balanced out by her 9 month problem (and a little more, considering nursing, and the idea she has more responsibility for physical care, though in modern times that may not be strictly followed.)
Mariana
(14,854 posts)the mother is ordered to pay child support. It works both ways, once a child has been born (if it was not given up for adoption). She can't just absolve herself of financial responsibility, either. She's on the hook for 18 years of support the same way the man is.
The Straight Story
(48,121 posts)in that case.
Neither of them want a child, for any number of reasons, she can choose to end the pregnancy.
He does not want a child people tell him to keep it in his pants.
Both can be affected for life by the decision they both made to have sex but only one has a say over their own body.
treestar
(82,383 posts)Vasectomy.
cbdo2007
(9,213 posts)Talk about surprised!
onpatrol98
(1,989 posts)I bet that was one heck of a surprise.
uppityperson
(115,677 posts)laundry_queen
(8,646 posts)However in EACH and EVERY case, the man didn't go back for the final sperm counts.
Ilsa
(61,692 posts)Vasectomy that night. I guess he didn't listen to the lecture or bother to read the materials stating he shouldn't have unprotected sex until his final sperm count is done.
HappyMe
(20,277 posts)so they can't get pregnant.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)There's a failure rate for all forms of birth control. Including vasectomy.
Men can make it so a woman is very unlikely to get pregnant. Same goes for the woman half of the sexual encounter.
HappyMe
(20,277 posts)the situation gets sticky.
If the man says ok, you're pregnant I have the money for an abortion. She wants a a day or so to think. Fine. But if he doesn't want a child and she decides to go through with the pregnancy.....what then. The guy is pretty much screwed. Unless she says that she will care for the child entirely herself.
treestar
(82,383 posts)But it doesn't get me too concerned with the apparent unfairness - men don't have to deal with pregnancy physically themselves, women are always the ones, so it just balances nature out.
Chan790
(20,176 posts)I've met far too many d-bag RW guys who would be all about forcing a woman to birth unwanted pregnancies the men want nothing to do with after they're born.
I am in favor of independent severance though. It's her body, she can chose if she wants to go through with the pregnancy...but both parents should have complete legal right independent of what the other wants, to say "I don't want to be a parent" and walk away with no legal rights or expectations upon them, nor ever be named as a parent including on birth records.
I think this benefits everybody:
* the custodial parent is under no illusions that the other is going to be in the picture or provide any support.
* the parent who doesn't want children isn't forced into parenthood. (It's better for the children.)
* children get to grow up knowing they were wanted.
* it would clear the way for adoptions.
* allows women considering their abortion decision to know where they stand.
* women who don't want kids know they can carry to term, hand the child off to the father that wants it and walk away free-and-clear.
cbdo2007
(9,213 posts)That's what I'm thinking here. Obviously, not that a woman should be forced to carry a baby that only the man wants....but a couple who is mature enough to have sex should be mature enough to come to an agreement on what happens if they accidentally get pregnant.
MattBaggins
(7,898 posts)but luckily the courts get to step in and consider the needs of the child and if necessary, negate any silly agreement the parents might have.
Sheldon Cooper
(3,724 posts)Thank god the court will intervene and protect the child that had the bad fortune of being born to nitwits like that.
Chan790
(20,176 posts)Trust me when I say he'd have been better off if the state of NY had allowed his father to disappear into the anonymous woodwork. One nitwit at half the financial support would have been better than two.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)Look at Latin American countries before they initiated child support. You have not entirely uncommon instances of guys fathering close to 100 kids with dozens of women. On my mother's side of the family (she is from Panama) we have at least one great grandfather who was one of those. We're still discovering new branches of the family 40 years after his death.
This could cause a flood of unwanted children and then who would take care of them?
Chan790
(20,176 posts)Grandpa was born somewhere near the VT/Canada border before 1910 when nobody really knew or cared where the border was since it was all forest anyways, everybody was born at home, no real records existed; he was 1 of 28 children (that we know of) great-grandpa had with 4 different women. (That we know of. There may be more children and more women. Until recently we thought it was 23 children by 3 women.)
He was born, lived and died having siblings he never met or even knew their names...all of them born in the same house, half of them claiming to be Canadians and the other half Americans. Great-grandpa from what I heard viewed them as closer to livestock than people and didn't really care if they were fed, educated, clothed or sheltered...kicked out the excess children whenever he had too many mouths to feed and not enough resources...may have bartered away one of his daughters for a tractor.
You're right...that'd be a disaster.
pnwmom
(108,973 posts)This situation would force more children into poverty and/or lead to more loving-but-single mothers being forced to give up children to adoption. Millions of adopted adults will tell you that's not an acceptable or fair solution. (Google "adoptees rights" if you're not familiar with the huge anti-adoption movement among adults who were adopted.)
If a man absolutely wants to protect himself from fathering children, he can use a condom and insist she use a female condom (or other method he can verify) -- or he can get a vasectomy.
If everything fails and he becomes a father anyway, he's as responsible as his partner for the child he helped create.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)But I also think its obvious that the current situation is not fair to men. I'm not sure there is a completely acceptable alternative and that is why I am not out there advocating for one on my show or otherwise.
pnwmom
(108,973 posts)And they know that if an unwanted pregnancy occurs, they can't force an abortion.
That's a risk they choose to take -- but they can almost eliminate the risk if they're vigilant about birth control or get a reversible or permanent vasectomy.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)You are not going to convince me the current situation is fair. It grossly favors women and their choices in whether to have and raise children. Unfortunately, there is no practical way to rectify the situation without penalizing the children or enforcing draconian restrictions on women's bodies.
pnwmom
(108,973 posts)Both men and women know that an unwanted pregnancy might occur and that, since it will occur inside the woman's body, it will be up to her how to deal with it. When a man chooses to have sex, he accepts that situation.
But after a baby is born, it is the responsibility of both parents.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)No, a man does not accept that situation when they choose to have sex. That is an incorrect statement. If abortion were illegal, a woman would not be accepting that reality if she had sex either. If abortion were only legal if a man gave his OK, a woman would not be accepting that reality if she had sex.
You pay taxes, right? Are you agreeing to the decision to fight all the wars that we might fight because you know that some of your tax money go to those wars when you pay it? Absolutely not. There are various things we do all the time where we do not accept and fully consent to at least a part of the reality of the situation but it is the best we can do at the moment.
pnwmom
(108,973 posts)to the legal disparity in his situation compared to his partners.
But I am saying that, by virtue of choosing to have sex, a man has put that objection aside and accepted the risk involved in that particular sex act. Knowing that he won't have a say in abortion, he still chooses to risk making a woman pregnant. (And knowing that she might have to make a difficult decision about abortion, a woman chooses to risk becoming pregnant.)
Look, I can sympathize. I have two young adult sons whom I hope never find themselves in this situation. But I've drilled into them what the risks are. They know that if they ever father children, they'll share responsibility for them, even though they don't get a vote in the decision to abort or go through a pregnancy.
Yep, I have 4 sons. We've been as plain as we can. Have sex, expect consequences. Children don't get a vote. So, if you're willing to roll the dice, be willing to be a real father. Work out the details ahead of time. And, I'm not above asking...although they're free to lie to me. What happens if she gets pregnant, have that conversation with her now.
I actually had a male friend that abstained from sex until he married at 23. He took a lot of guff for it from his friends...but he's also one of the few of his friends that didnt already have a child by the time they were married.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)Things like breathing air, sex, food, etc., you can't say that someone is just accepting the risk if you put artificial risks in getting those things in the way.
A woman is not accepting the risk that she cannot abort her pregnancy if it became illegal. A woman would not be accepting the risk if somehow the world became Orwellian and the law was that she had to get her male partners consent before she could get an abortion.
You cant put those kinds of oppressive things in place for someone to get food, water, air, sex, shelter, etc and say, oh well that person accepted the risk.
If we tell someone that the only way they can get food is if the accept a 5% risk that we will whip them if they eat the food, do you think they are accepting the risk if they eat it?
pnwmom
(108,973 posts)No one needs it to live. And if simple physical release is needed, there are many alternatives that don't risk making someone pregnant. Some you can even do independently.
The situation of a woman with respect to an illegal abortion isn't the same -- it's still her body and should be her right to choose.
Think about it this way. When my husband and I wanted to have children, I was the one who had to take all the physical risk. And in my case, I ended up in two high risk pregnancies, one that was actually life-threatening. I didn't whine that it wasn't fair that my husband didn't have to take that risk. It was just the way it was if the two of us wanted to have children.
If you want to blame anyone, blame nature. It's because a full-term pregnancy can (at this point in time) only be carried by a person with a uterus -- who is in charge of her uterus -- that only women risk their lives in pregnancy and only women can decide whether to abort or not.
Men don't get to choose whether to abort and they also don't have to risk their lives in pregnancies. But once men CAN carry a pregnancy, I'm completely in favor of them getting to choose whether to continue it or abort.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)pnwmom
(108,973 posts)But looking at that pyramid, I see that Maslow doesn't agree with you either. See how he makes it a hierarchy of needs? Food and oxygen are a basic need. "Security of the body" comes after that (which is the foundation of woman's right to choose). Physical intimacy is in third place -- and there are many forms of that. Vaginal sexual intercourse is only one possibility.
Here's the biggest problem with your theory of basic "needs." People are entitled to water and air. Are you saying men are entitled to vaginal sex with women? So they get all their primal needs met?
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)They are so basic to a human being that humans will ultimately risk anything to get them and so we should do our best to take any and all risk out of the way of those needs.
Over the course of history people have risked any and all kinds of things for sex and sexual intimacy. If a woman can absolve herself of the responsibility it is inherently unfair that a man cannot do the same.
We can discuss all kinds of hypotheticals that illustrate the point. If abortion was made illegal and the custody laws were changed so that men always got custody, would it be fair to say to women, sorry, for the sin of having sex and risking pregnancy, you are forced to bear the child and then pay for the man to be with the child if you dont want to be with the man anymore?
That's really the other way of saying this. You bad person you risked this sin and now you may have to pay. Haven't we evolved past that?
pnwmom
(108,973 posts)Are you saying that the act of fathering a child is an artificial risk simply because the man didn't do it on purpose?
It's an absolutely natural risk that if a fertile man has sex with a fertile woman, a pregnancy might occur. And that that pregnancy might continue in that woman's body and result in a birth -- which they are then both responsible for. This isn't being punished. This is being a grown-up human being. For a man, it's taking his share of responsibility for the helpless child who wouldn't exist except for a decision he and his partner made.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)'grossly favors women'??
ugh...
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)The decision to carry a child or terminate should be hers and hers alone. Women are autonomous beings.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)pnwmom
(108,973 posts)But it can be summed up in this way: when men can carry pregnancies within their bodies, I am completely in favor of their absolute right to choose whether to carry a pregnancy to term.
But as long as they're dependent on women to take all the physical risk involved in "making a baby," they're stuck with the fact that the woman gets the deciding vote on carrying to term.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)You said it was about the children earlier.
So which is it. Is it about the children, or is it about women being the only people allowed to decide?
pnwmom
(108,973 posts)When a fetus is inside a woman's body, it's up to the woman whether to carry the pregnancy to term or not.
When a baby is born with your DNA, whether you are a woman or a man you are responsible for it. If a woman doesn't want the baby but the man does, then she needs to pay child support to him.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)What is of interest to a fetus is definitely at odds with what is of interest to a woman who does not want to bring the pregnancy to term. I'm pro-choice so I've agreed that is her right, but to say that the two are complementary is a definite stretch of the truth.
MattBaggins
(7,898 posts)and will disavow parents of the silly notion that they can "walk away free and clear".
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)cbdo2007
(9,213 posts)pnwmom
(108,973 posts)Abandonment laws are only for situations when NEITHER parent wants the child.
Any man who is concerned about fathering unwanted children can use condoms and insist his partner use verifiable birth control (like a female condom) -- or he can have a reversible or permanent vasectomy. It that fails, then he's as responsible as his sexual partner for the life he helped create.
treestar
(82,383 posts)The upside is the "unfair" problem for men they don't get to choose one way or the other while the woman does. But they don't physically have to bear children, so that's an extra freedom women of child bearing age never get.
One problem might be men who change their minds. They sign off on being the father, then later want to. They should not be able to interfere with any new parent/child relationship the child has once they signed off.
cbdo2007
(9,213 posts)having to pay child support to a kid you might not ever get to see for 18 years and who will be told how horrible you are the whole time costs tens of thousands of dollars and lasts a lifetime.
treestar
(82,383 posts)It is the physical investment. That 9 months is not equivalent to any 9 months of financial support - indeed the mother has to support the child too.
But the physical part, men never have to do, so it's fair enough if they don't get the choice, either.
pnwmom
(108,973 posts)A friend of mine lost half her bile ducts because of a pregnancy complication and might need a liver transplant someday. Another friend had a stroke, and she'll never be the same. These were risks they didn't anticipate and couldn't control ahead of time. But, like all women, they got pregnant knowing that they were subjecting themselves to a significant degree of physical risk.
Similarly, men have sex with women knowing they might get them pregnant and won't be able to force them to have abortions or to go to full term. They, like women, subject themselves to some financial risk, if a child is born due to contraceptive failure.
Once men can carry pregnancies in their bodies I'm 100% in favor of their right to choose whether they go to full term or not. At this point, if you want to blame someone about the unfairness of it all, blame Mother Nature.
uppityperson
(115,677 posts)us, comparing child support for 18 yrs to a 9 month pregnancy.
pnwmom
(108,973 posts)because they need financial and emotional support from two parents.
If a man is worried about his partner's birth control failing, then he can use a condom or get a vasectomy. If he fathers a child despite using a condom, then he is just as responsible for the child as the woman.
Xithras
(16,191 posts)I don't have any problem giving men the right to walk away, but that's a decision that should be made within the first few weeks of pregnancy. That way, if the man doesn't want to support it, the woman can make an educated choice as to whether she wants to raise it on her own or terminate.
A guy should NOT be able to walk away 6 months into a pregnancy when abortion options are generally off the table, or even worse...after the child is born.
cbdo2007
(9,213 posts)Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)Mariana
(14,854 posts)Pretend you're dictator and get to make the abortion laws exactly the way you want them to be. How would this work?
For example:
What happens when the woman isn't sure who got her pregnant? Does every man she had sex with during the relevant time period have to agree? Will you require DNA tests before the procedure can be done?
What if she knows who he is, but doesn't know where he is?
Will there be any exceptions? Will a woman for whom a pregnancy and birth is dangerous still have to get consent from the male party? Will a rape victim have to? An 11 year old child?
how are you going to make sure the male party who is giving consent is actually the man who impregnated the woman? How will you prevent a woman from enlisting the help of a male relative or friend to pretend to be the man involved? If it would be illegal, what would the penalties be?
I hope you'll answer these questions. I don't agree with you at all, but I'm interested in this idea.
cbdo2007
(9,213 posts)I'm sure the details would have to be figured out, but to answer your questions....
1. If she doesn't know who the father is, she gets the choice of either DNA testing to find out who the father is (by the guys who agree to go through with the testing) or sign off all future rights to go after the father for monetary support
2. If she doesn't know where he is, that is his decision to give up his rights. His refusal to stay in contact with the woman is his response to whether or not he wants to be a part of the decision.
3. Rape victims and pregnancies that are too dangerous to the mom are automatic abortions.
4. Obviously, abusing the system and lying about the potential father would be punishment to the mother if the father finds out and wants to pursue legal action.
I'm just brainstorming quickly here. The person in post #60 above seems to be on the same page and is more eloquent than I am, and again, obviously there would be many many points to be figured out, but it seems fair that if both parties caused the problem then both parties are involved in the solution.
PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)Women should never EVER have to involve others in THEIR medical decisions. It's preposterous. And offensive. And bullshit.
cbdo2007
(9,213 posts)just cause the other poster asked. Doesn't have anything to do with the OP or 95% of my responses and is completely irrelevant to the rest of the conversation.
If women don't want to involve others in their medical decisions they should get pregnant without another person involved. Then the decision is theirs and theirs alone. Getting pregnant IS a medical decision that three parties are involved in and the solution should be what's best for all three parties, not just what any one person decides on their own.
PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)cbdo2007
(9,213 posts)It's tougher being dictator than you think cause most people are going to get mad at every decision you make. I'm sure it would be the same if you were making all the laws.
Mariana
(14,854 posts)Can the mother who didn't want a child, but was forced to have one by the male party's refusal to consent to an abortion, be absolved of financial responsibility? In other words, can the child be given up altogether to the father, and the mother never be made to pay support?
Re number 1: What future rights to monetary support are you talking about? She's trying to get consent for an abortion. If she has an abortion, there won't BE any rights to future monetary support. The question stands: What if she doesn't know which man impregnated her, and she wants an abortion? How does she go about getting consent?
cbdo2007
(9,213 posts)but you are asking me to come up with answers to random "What if?" questions off the top of my head, when this is the type of stuff that congress will debate for weeks over, so I'm just brainstorming here. I'm just throwing some ideas out there and there are always going to be questions and random scenarios that come up. To answer your questions....
A mother can't be forced to have a baby just because the male party wants the baby. Part of the negotiation would be that she agrees to have the baby for him if she can be absolved of financial responsibility, just like the guy could be in the opposite circumstance. She could even hold out for all birthing medical expenses paid + $5,000 if she agrees to have the baby and hand it over to him. Just like everything in all of our lives, it's all about negotiation to try to find a solution where both parties are happy. There is no forcing on anyone.
This is a random situation....but if she doesn't know who the father is, she sends "Congratulations!" cards out to the 4 guys who could be possible fathers and tells them the big news and that they may be the father. If the baby is theirs and they want to be included in the decisions they need to meet at XYZ Lawyer Office on June 1st and 2:00pm or else they will be giving up their rights to be part of the decision. If no one shows up, she can have the abortion right there in the room at the lawyers office. If two guys show up and if either of them does NOT agree to the abortion, then they get DNA tests to find out the paternity and if one of those two guys is the father, the negotiations between the mother and father begin.
Mariana
(14,854 posts)Most people who say something like, "Both parties should agree or no abortion" aren't willing to even try to follow where that might go. The fact is, sometimes both parties aren't going to agree, no matter what discussions, persuasions, or negotiations take place. When that happens, someone has to have the final word. As it is now, the pregnant woman has that final word, and that is as it should be.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)Oh, wait.
PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)morningfog
(18,115 posts)I guess so.
cbdo2007
(9,213 posts)PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)If so, you are anti-choice.
morningfog
(18,115 posts)cbdo2007
(9,213 posts)You're probably gonna say I should be over at freerepublic though and I get that....but the world will never be black and white so us libs are just gonna have to find a way to get along.
morningfog
(18,115 posts)Pro-choice has nothing to do with any man's body.
cbdo2007
(9,213 posts)and the women in the scenarios have MOST of the choice still.
uppityperson
(115,677 posts)Serious question. How is this "choice"?
PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)is when a woman decides that he should be.
cbdo2007
(9,213 posts)marshall
(6,665 posts)But he has no right to abort the pregnancy.
PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)marshall
(6,665 posts)I assume that will come someday.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)Response to Baitball Blogger (Original post)
The DUzy Awards This message was self-deleted by its author.
KittyWampus
(55,894 posts)Weldon then altered the pills so they would not be identifiable and told the woman that his father told him she had a bacterial infection, Muldrow said.
jmowreader
(50,552 posts)I wonder what else this little punk has forged his dad's name to get...oxycontin and uppers come to mind immediately.
In any case, a halfway decent prosecutor could put this punk away for life without ever using a fetal murder charge - fraud on several counts, obtaining prescription drugs on false pretexts, deceit, assault, forgery...but as this is Florida it'll be all about the fetus.
Flying Squirrel
(3,041 posts)Just a general comment, my own experience..
My girlfriend placed her birth control pills on the kitchen counter and threw one away every day. She then got pregnant, hoping to keep me (our relationship was quite rocky.)
Of course this pregnancy caused me much dismay, and the dismay increased once she finally (on her own, I did not even ask though in the back of my mind I suspected it) that she had been throwing away the pills.
Despite all this, I did not pressure her to have an abortion. Instead I married her.
The marriage lasted two years, plus another 7-month separation before the divorce. Four months into the separation she voluntarily (without being asked) gave me sole custody of my daughter.
I now have a wonderful 18-year-old daughter and wouldn't change a thing.
The man in the OP is a coward. I feel sorry for him and his girlfriend both. I think he should serve some time, but I don't think a murder charge is appropriate.
Deep13
(39,154 posts)The fact that it was incidental to a felonious assault on the prospective mother might make it death penalty eligible.
cali
(114,904 posts)Yes, he did a horrible thing, but this is NOT murder.
PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)A forced abortion or miscarriage is totally an assault against the woman, not the fetus. It should not center on the fetus at all, which is part of the woman's body. A woman's pregnancy becomes part of HER identity and personhood while she's pregnant. Laws that bypass her and give any status or protection to the fetus regardless of gestation are harmful and discriminatory against women, and devalue women as persons.
Also, I think the issue of 'choice' in this situation is a red herring. If an assaulted woman's pregnancy is unwanted - even if she gets assaulted on the way to the abortion clinic and miscarries, it's just as serious a crime as an assault against a woman with a much-wanted pregnancy.
morningfog
(18,115 posts)stevenleser
(32,886 posts)Even though I would bet the wording of most sexual assault laws dont include/cover it.
Deep13
(39,154 posts)Remember Roe v. Wade give the woman the right to choose, not anyone else. The state may and many have defined involuntary abortion as murder. Those laws in no way infringe on the woman's free choice. This one chose not to abort, but the prospective father took that choice away.
Obviously, it is a felony assault on the woman too.
cali
(114,904 posts)and yes, these laws damn well do infringe on a woman's right to choose.
Deep13
(39,154 posts)What difference does viability make? If the legislature defines purposeful, involuntary abortion as murder, then how is it not? Granted, it does not meet the Common Law definition of murder: unlawfully killing a human being with malice aforethought, but state legislatures can alter the Common Law by statute.
Poll_Blind
(23,864 posts)...an article like this or does everyone see it?
Forwarded the full article to a female friend with no comment. She had the same reaction I did.
Yeah, what he's accused of doing is a very, very serious crime. Hell, a couple of crimes at least. And heinous crimes by any account.
But there's a little more to this story than meets the eye and (whistles innocently) whatever that is, it sure as shit is going to come out during the trial.
PB
Mariana
(14,854 posts)The story doesn't feel right to me at all on the face of it, but damned if I can figure out what's really going on here. I'm usually pretty good at that, too.
True Earthling
(832 posts)I'm pro-choice but the dynamics of this case are much different. She was expecting to birth this baby. She already had a name picked out. She was probably dreaming about mothering this child. Objectively anyone can say that it was a fetus...but in her mind this was a human being she was carrying. That's the important distinction. The loss of her baby has to be devastating... I doubt that anyone could convince her that "it's just a fetus". Based on the loss she suffered by this act I would equate it to murder. I believe this crime has to be judged from harm that was done to the victims - mother AND baby. This woman lost a baby that she wanted... to her the baby was real and that's how it should be viewed by those judging the severity of this crime.
Deep13
(39,154 posts)Many define purposeful, involuntary abortion as murder.