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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsHappy birthday, you're a sex offender! Florida girl charged upon turning 18, for dating a 15yo girl.
Talk about a toxic combination of stupid fucking laws, and insane, bigoted, homophobic psycho parents...
http://www.examiner.com/article/florida-teen-fights-expulsion-and-criminal-charges-for-same-sex-relationship
MAY 17, 2013 BY: RACHAEL MOSHMAN
Most high school seniors are excitedly preparing to put on their cap and gown and looking forward to the future right now. Kaitlyn Hunt, 18, is instead fighting bigotry and hoping she wont be forced to go to jail instead of college. Her crime? Dating another student a female student. Kaitlyns family took her story public on May 17th, via Facebook.
Hunt was a highly respected student at Floridas Sebastian River High School with good grades and participation in cheerleading, basketball and chorus. She was even voted most school spirit.
All of that changed when she started dating a fellow student, a girl she met on the basketball team, at the beginning of the school year.
...
Then the family was shocked and devastated when police came to their home in February to arrest Kaitlyn. She was charged with two felony counts of lewd and lascivious battery on a child 12 16 years of age.
Kaitlyn was 17 when the relationship began, but right after she turned 18, her 15-year-old girlfriend's parents pressed charges. Hunts mother, Kelley Hunt Smith, says the other set of parents have made it their mission to destroy her daughters life, all because they cant accept that their child was in a same sex relationship.
So let me get this straight. Relationship legal, when one partner 17, the other 15 - we've all seen this in high school, though the same-sex part drove the younger girl's parents to psychosis. But once the older girl turned 18, RELATIONSHIP ILLEGAL! Happy Birthday, you're committing statutory rape!
And the younger girl's psycho parents, and the DA are determined make sure Kaitlyn pays for this "crime" with prison, a felony record, and a place on the sex-offender registry.
dlwickham
(3,316 posts)in order to get a conviction
backscatter712
(26,355 posts)The persecutor in this case seems convinced he can get a conviction - he's been rejecting plea bargains.
MattBaggins
(7,897 posts)they were in a relationship before she turned 18 and there is less than 1 4 year difference in ages.
dsc
(52,152 posts)backscatter712
(26,355 posts)is keep her from going on the sex-offender registry. She'd still be a felon guilty of statutory rape, and the DA is still demanding 2 years of house arrest, an additional year of probation, and she doesn't take the plea, she goes to trial where the DA would demand a prison sentence.
And it's likely that the Romeo and Juliet Law may only apply to opposite-sex couples. Same-sex "sex offenders" are SOL.
DRoseDARs
(6,810 posts)backscatter712
(26,355 posts)She'd still be a felon, she'd still face prison or whatever other sentence provisions the judge and DA throw at her. She just gets to apply to be taken off the sex-offender registry.
Lovely how the sex-offender registry makes no distinction between a 17-going-on-18-year-old having consensual sex with a 15-year-old and a 45-year-old raping a 5-year-old.
DRoseDARs
(6,810 posts)This is completely unjust and she is fucked. It'd be awesome if the couples' fellow students protested at the "victim's" house everyday. I'm sure most students can spare some time throughout their day to stand/sit there, either by having an off-period or even before/afterschool availability.
backscatter712
(26,355 posts)Apparently, they rounded this girl up either on her birthday or right after, so the question is whether the two girls actually engaged in something resembling sex after she turned 18.
If all they did was kiss or hold hands or do heavy petting, I don't think that's enough.
DRoseDARs
(6,810 posts)backscatter712
(26,355 posts)If this girl has a good defense attorney, that attorney's going to do what every attorney does - tries to get all the evidence the prosecution wants to present suppressed.
If the girl didn't plead the 5th and talked to the cops, she's likely to be in very deep shit if she confessed to copping a feel five minutes after she turned 18. But if the defense attorney can find some issues with how the cops questioned her, he may be able to have that evidence thrown out. Did she have her rights read to her? Did she have the opportunity to get a lawyer? Was she coerced in any way?
And then there's the other likely source of evidence, the 15 year old. And I feel really bad for this girl - she didn't do anything wrong, she did a typical high school relationship, except it was girlfriend-girlfriend instead of boyfriend-girlfriend. She has to deal with psycho, religious homophobic batshit parents, who may be abusive.
And hopefully, she'll be able somehow to avoid testifying or leaving a deposition, but if she doesn't the defense attorney is going to grill her. Get every single detail of what the two girls did together, go over them over and over and over, look for inconsistencies in her story, pick her story apart as much as possible, to get that evidence suppressed, or create a reasonable doubt in the eyes of the judge or jury hearing the case.
This is why rape trials are so nasty. But it may be necessary to keep a woman who morally speaking hasn't done anything to deserve prison or a felony conviction or a spot on the sex-offender registry from getting railroaded.
pnwmom
(108,959 posts)and how it might apply to two girls.
Is touching the same as rape?
DRoseDARs
(6,810 posts)With what we first covered, she can protect herself at least from being branded a sex offender for the rest of her life. They nabbed right after she turned 18, so it may be she hadn't had any sexual contact with her girlfriend between her turning 18 and the cops grabbing her. If she did in the very short window, they can go after her, but this is where is gets extra screwy: Age of consent in Florida is 18. However there's this via Wikipedia:
http://archive.flsenate.gov/statutes/index.cfm?mode=View%20Statutes&SubMenu=1&App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=794.05&URL=0700-0799/0794/Sections/0794.05.html
"Florida
The age of consent in Florida is 18, but close-in-age exemptions exist. By law, the exception permits a person 23 years of age or younger to engage in legal sexual activity with a minor aged 16 or 17.
794.05 Unlawful sexual activity with certain minors.-- (1) A person 24 years of age or older who engages in sexual activity with a person 16 or 17 years of age commits a felony of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084. As used in this section, "sexual activity" means oral, anal, or vaginal penetration by, or union with, the sexual organ of another; however, sexual activity does not include an act done for a bona fide medical purpose Florida code, Title XLVI, Chapter 794"
So a 23 year old (or 22,21,20,19,18,17) can (a 24 year old or older can not) have sex with anyone no younger than 16 or 17 (don't know why there's a difference) so a difference between ages of up to 7 years. But this girl of 18 and her "victim" of 15 are 3 years apart and it's rape?
I'm no legal expert, but suddenly methinks the defense is going to eat the "victim's" parents and their lawyer alive.
pnwmom
(108,959 posts)it sounds like all this will amount to is a huge embarrassment for both girls.
These parents and their lawyer are insane.
freshwest
(53,661 posts)backscatter712
(26,355 posts)It's pure malice.
freshwest
(53,661 posts)It's retroactive punishment and that's illegal, or it should be.
FFS, people commit murder below the age of 18 and are tried as adults or juveniles, some even get out at 18.
The DA or whoever did not do their job when the crime occurred. This is BS, and not just because it's same sex.
backscatter712
(26,355 posts)"Happy birthday, you're a sex offender!"
Unscrupulous persecutors fuck up peoples's lives with this shit all the time.
Ms. Toad
(33,999 posts)It was perfectly legal for the couple to be sexually involved as minors. Once the older woman reached 18 she was no longer a minor, and any sexual relations (and what qualifies will depend on the statute) from then on out became statutory rape for her to be involved with a minor (again, state law will determine whether it bars involvement with all minors, or only minors where there is more than a certain age gap; under some laws, if a couple is only a day apart in age it is statutory rape on the one day when one is 18 and the other 17 - although typically there is at least a 1 year gap required).
freshwest
(53,661 posts)If they had continued, the older would be an adult. But also, the 15 year old might be 16, except as you say, one day under 16 would meet the law.
Thanks for your read on it. What a mess.
Ms. Toad
(33,999 posts)so I don't know what it says about age difference (one year was just a guess, in other words), but there is typically an age difference clause which makes the relationship change from being legal, to being statutory rape, to being legal again in a way that has absolutely nothing to do with the relationship between the couple.
(I am not opposed to statutory rape laws, in general, because I think they do serve a purpose where there is a true power differential involved. I've spent too much time counseling minors preyed on by adults. But kids growing up isn't one of those situations)
pnwmom
(108,959 posts)charged her right after she turned 18.
And they will have to prove penetration -- good luck on that.
Ms. Toad
(33,999 posts)But for others reading this subthread - it turns out the internet morphed some of the details. The young women's relationship didn't actually become intimate until after the older one was 18, and the police taped a call between the two women.
As to the penetration, the specific crime she's apparently been charged with (battery) doesn't require penetration - it just requires touching certain areas of the body, like breasts (even through clothing).
I'm not sure about the legality in Florida of using a taped phone conversation as evidence - and it doesn't say whether the younger one consented to it being taped. And in most places at least one of the parties has to consent to the taping.
tammywammy
(26,582 posts)She turned 18 last August and was arrested in February.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/FreeKate/?fref=ts
jmowreader
(50,529 posts)Girl's parents think the guy she's hanging out with is no good, wait till he turns 18 and have him busted as a Child Rapist.
JI7
(89,241 posts)have been charged but becuase they were same sex they were charged.
the one i read about involved 2 guys. i think one pled guilty and the other one was going to be tried.
freshwest
(53,661 posts)This seems like double jeopardy in a way, two different laws:
Not chargeable since can't be found guilty by reason of age.
Then charge when can be found guilty by reason of age.
Disclaimer: Not an attorney.
Jenoch
(7,720 posts)a charge cannot be made until one of the couple has reached majority status and the other is under the age of consent. The only reason gender might make a difference is because of the attitude of the parents' of the juvinile.
freshwest
(53,661 posts)I find that hard to believe. Such kids end up in social services. The 17 year old was also a minor at the time this happened.
I think there is something more is going on. I wonder if the then 15 year old told her parents this was not consentual or lied. The 17 year old should be able to tell her side of this in court.
Or is this only about FL? I seem to recall them having odd laws on rape before this case...
Jenoch
(7,720 posts)nor do I know the details of Florida law. What I do know is that a child that is under the age of consent (usually 16 years) cannot consent to sexual relations with an adult. That is apparently the charge in this case.
If a juvenile sexually assaults another person, under age or of majority status, of course that juvenile can be charged with a sexual assault.
freshwest
(53,661 posts)I wonder how much of this is going on down there in FL. Thanks for your time and the information, but it still doesn't seem logical, but laws are not always written common sense, but according to older laws.
Excuse me for not reading the entire thread through. What I don't see in the coverage is if these two had an ongoing relationship all of this time. I note you or someone, answered someone about that problem. If they were continuing after the older girl became 18, there it is.
One was 15, the other was 17. Then they wait a year until she was 18. The parents of the 15 year old could have stopped this before she was 16, but not after.
If they allowed this to go on for a year, they were either in the dark about it, contrary to what the older girl's parents claim, or if they did know all along, this will mean they essentially gave their consent. Which by law, they should not have.
It's the timeline that is missing, I don't think we are getting the whole thing. I don't know if the parents are bigots, but whether or not, they had a responsibility to stop a statutory rape much earlier and not let it go on.
Wonder how this will carry out. Someone suggested picketing the younger girl's home but I don't think that is appropriate, nor will it help the older girl's cause one bit.
It's sad what emotional trauma both of these girls are going through with the parents and the legal system. The parents of both girls should have thought twice and made sure they were both on the same page. From the post lower down, the older girl's mother says:
'...I saw the other girl's father there several times, he saw them together as well, so I assumed her family was aware of it and didnt have any issues either...'
I cannot begin to express the amount of hassle I've gotten into when I assumed there was a meeting of the minds between another person and myself. One makes plans, continues on and thinks everyone agrees and then gets blindsided.
We don't know if the parents agreed to have their minor, below the age of consent girl be involved with anyone. It was their responsibility. This needs to come out as a defense. I agree with your or someone's comment about holding hands and kissing, that shouldn't be considered rape. 'Dating' does not always include sex, either.
What a mess.
Jenoch
(7,720 posts)However, you are assuming the parents of the 15 year old knew about the situation and waited until the other girl attained majority status and knew about the sutuation before the other girl turned 18. I don't know the details of the case, but I understand the possible motivations of the parents.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)jmowreader
(50,529 posts)freshwest
(53,661 posts)The law can be very rigid. It does not appear the younger girl was coerced, but law remains.
Police recorded them talking about their relationship, which in a post below indicates it went further than holding hands and kissing after the older girl turned 18 and there it is. Motivations don't matter, the text of the law does, and she is caught.
I don't know if there is any hope for them overcoming it because statutory rape, IIRC, does not depend on a complaint from the parties involved. It's just the law and even if both are willing, it doesn't matter.
It's terrible when private actions lead to public results, for the hearts and minds of the ones in the situation. In a couple years the younger girl would naturally be emancipated, and this would not be an issue.
Youth, passion, free spirits and the law collide. Tragic.
ZombieHorde
(29,047 posts)nolabear
(41,936 posts)You mean people GET through adolescence without threats of reform school and the quote "Seventeen will get you twenty"?
alp227
(32,006 posts)Looked it up on Google Maps. Apparently Sebastian is in the Treasure Coast, one of the sleepier parts of Florida away from the major metro areas or college towns.
Think Progress LGBT has a report on this story and links to a Facebook group written by Hunt's mother. Excerpts:
So sad. She experienced the worst nightmare a parent could see.
What the hell? Why do we keep hearing these stories of how Florida's criminal justice system is such BULLSHIT? Let's see. George Zimmerman shoots Trayvon Martin to death, wait NEAR TWO MONTHS to arrest Zimmerman. Kiera Wilmot botches a science experiment at school and causes an explosion tho with no injury or property damage? FELONY CHARGES (thankfully the local state attorney dropped them). Two teenage girls in a consensual relationship but one of the girls' parents exploits a shitty "Romeo and Juliet" type of law in a passive-aggressive, vengeful fashion? SLAM. The legacy of Medicare fraudster Rick Scott's Florida right here.
I don't see any local news (like TCPalm.com, Indian River Press Journal) covering this story. But LGBT website Advocate.com also picked up this story.
Voice for Peace
(13,141 posts)MichelleB
(80 posts)going on? It can't be an L&L if there was any sex!! Either way, that's the law for you. And I think the biggest issue is the fact the younger girls parents can't except the fact the their daughter is/WAS in a homosexual relationship!! I wonder if they'd have the same reaction if it was a boy. There's only a two year age difference. I wonder if they're just completely pig headed and think their daughter will remain "pure" until marriage. Reality check!! That just doesn't happen very often anymore!! And the more you try to control your kids, the more they're going to rebel!! Does anyone know if the two ere together still when she was charged? Just curious.
ScreamingMeemie
(68,918 posts)on the Facebook group about it: https://www.facebook.com/groups/FreeKate/?fref=ts
She believes (as do I) that the parents are the very worst kind of religious freaks. The other girl involved has begged them to not do this, has said it was consensual, etc.
Just devastating.
rbnyc
(17,045 posts)From the fb page:
When the girls' basketball coach found out that two of her players were dating, she kicked Kaitlyn off the team and informed her girlfriend's parents that their daughter was in a same-sex relationship. The parents then conspired with police to entrap Kaitlyn and press charges.
The police recorded a phone conversation between the two girls, now 18 and 15, in which they discussed their relationship. Kaitlyn was arrested and charged with two counts of felony lewd and lascivious battery on a child 12-16. Kaitlyn's girlfriend denies that Kaitlyn ever pressured her and is adamant that their relationship is entirely consensual, but her parents are out to destroy Kaitlyn's life. After two separate judges ruled that Kaitlyn could finish her senior year with her peers, her girlfriend's parents appealed to the Indian River County School Board, who expelled Kaitlyn sent her to the alternative school.
Volaris
(10,266 posts)because the OUTRAGE, even among average, everyday non-political people will be such that something like this could very well be the nail that finally closes the coffin on GOP-inspired bigotry against the GBLT community.
Rachel, this one is a slow curve over the plate. No reason not to swing for the fences.
BlueCheese
(2,522 posts)... should remain legal in the future.
This is nuts.
Ms. Toad
(33,999 posts)It appears as if the article in the OP was based on some distorted facts that went viral.
The relationship did not become intimate until Kate turned 18. The parents of the younger girl reported her to the police several months after Kate's 18th birthday, and the police recorded a phone conversation between the two girls, giving them enough evidence to make an arrest.
That doesn't change any of the dynamics - but Kate's relatives are working to make sure misinformation does not come back and bite Kate, so I thought I'd pass it on.
Here are links they say is accurate: https://www.facebook.com/groups/FreeKate/permalink/192747450877281/
https://www.facebook.com/groups/FreeKate/files/
pnwmom
(108,959 posts)Recursion
(56,582 posts)This is the sort of thing that calls for prosecutorial discretion.
pnwmom
(108,959 posts)that would fall under a rape law.
I mean, beyond kissing or external touching.
Initech
(100,041 posts)Deep13
(39,154 posts)davidn3600
(6,342 posts)These laws were designed to protect 14 year olds from 40 year old pedophiles. But parents and prosecutors have abused these laws time and time again in many cases exactly like this one. And "Romeo and Juliet" exceptions haven't helped.
LostOne4Ever
(9,286 posts)I think this shows that the Romeo and Juliet needs to be extended to protect kids like this even more.
HockeyMom
(14,337 posts)and had been dating a boy who was a Sophomore and was 15. There was a 2 and a half year age difference. They started seeing each other when he was 14 and she was 17.
Once when his parents invited us over for a BBQ, his Dad started joking around about how Rach was now legally adult, and that they could prosecute her. Was he serious? Absolutely not, although we all found his jokes offense, especially my daughter. However, seriously, how many fathers of sons would prosecute an "older woman" (he called her that) of 18 for dating their sons in high school? Actually, in hindsight his Dad was probably WISHING there was something more going on because there WASN'T. "We are really just FRIENDS", my daughter would say. I believed her. WHY?
John would come over my house just to talk to me, about COOKING. John would come over my house just to talk to my older lesbian daughter, about gay rights. My older daughter said she thought John was gay.
John came out in college. He is now engaged to be married, to a man. John is now 26 years old, so NOTHING his parents can do about that.
My feeling is that this girl's parents have an AGENDA, and just waited until the other girl turned 18 to take advantage of this law. They are ruining two lives here, and I am sure will get a LOT of very negative publicity across the country.
blueamy66
(6,795 posts)I never even thought that anything was illegal about it.....and I was a Criminal Justice major.
Thank goodness my parents and his parents weren't assholes about it.
These laws are bullshit and need to be changed ASAP. And I agree, the girl's parents do have an agenda and I don't understand why the prosecutor doesn't see this as well.
Sucks all around....
laundry_queen
(8,646 posts)That poor girl What a stupid law. What horrible parents. I can't even imagine...God, I dated so many guys that were 18 when I was 14-16 (at the time age of consent here was 14). I know many of my friends married those 18 year olds they dated when they were 14. You'd think there would be some kind of 'age spread' exception. What total bullshit. Fucking disgusting homophobic parents.
I have a daughter who is dating another girl (her age thankfully). The other girl's parents don't know. They think they are just good friends. I worry about what will happen when they find out - I don't know if they are religious or not but my daughter said her girlfriend seems pretty scared to tell them. I can't even imagine if her girlfriend's parents reacted so horribly that they tried to ruin my daughter's life. I think I'd be making the talk show circuit shaming the other parents and trying to ruin THEIR life.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)I find it odd that the concern appears to be "abuse of the law" versus "unjust laws". The only thing novel or unusual about this incident is that the offender is a young woman.
A crime that would have been prosecuted and punished without notice (or even celebrated) if Kenny were the defendant suddenly merits garment rending because Kaitlin is.
The problem isn't a family which is "exploiting the law" to punish behavior they disapprove of. The problem is the law itself.
davidn3600
(6,342 posts)People are willing to put up with laws like this to "protect the children."
Well...more to protect the girls. No one would care if the 15 year old is male and the 18 year old is female.
The double standards in our society when it comes to things like this is astounding.
tabasco
(22,974 posts)Keeping me safe from these girls dating!
tammywammy
(26,582 posts)geomon666
(7,512 posts)L0oniX
(31,493 posts)ScreamingMeemie
(68,918 posts):kick:
MichelleB
(80 posts)This poor girl hasn't even gotten to start life yet and now will be forced to register as a sex offender?? How many of us have or remember our high school sweet hearts?? Isn't that part of your high school memories?? What's wrong with that? Didn't we size up most of the next to come to them? So what if she just so happens to date the same sex. And the other girls parents aren't okay with that. If that makes HER happy then the parents should be happy for her. I dk. That's my opinion. If the 15yr old really likes Kaitlin, then her relationship with her parents just got killed. And they have no one to blame except them selves.