I spent two years in college in Kansas.

[Cleita]

Last edited Tue May 21, 2013, 01:57 PM - Edit history (1)

We had tunnels underneath our buildings that connected to each of the separate buildings for two reasons. The first reason was so we could move around the buildings during a blizzard and didn't have to go out into the storms. The second reason was for protection from tornadoes.

Why didn't those elementary schools have tunnels or underground bunkers underneath them for tornado protection? It could have saved the lives of those poor children. I assume that being a red state, the Republican legislators were just too cheap to build in simple safety measures in their schools.

[Lex]

1. Because taxes.

Taxes are evil liberal ideas and don't dare try tell them how to run their education budget or schools. That sort of thing.

[TheDebbieDee]

2. There are high water tables in Oklahoma - basements flood!

[Cleita]

4. I'm not talking about a house basement, I'm talking about a concrete

and steel bunker that is waterproof. It's not impossible. It just means it's more expensive to construct but I'm sure those sport stadiums most cities prefer to build are more important.

[TheDebbieDee]

16. Oklahoma has regulations barring the construction of below-ground, steel-reinforced

rooms unless they can be cooled to temperatures between 34 and 42 degrees and contain beer as its primary contents.....

Was that better?

[CAG]

5. Nooo, Debbie, its got to be all political!! Everything's political!!

[11 Bravo]

58. Not to change the subject, but does your username have anything to do with Naval Aviation?

[CAG]

72. No, just a nickname from childhood

[kestrel91316]

3. They'd apparently rather just pray and hope that Gawd

gives two shits about them.

Me? I'd rather pay the effing taxes and build the shelters. Gawd is pretty unreliable and capricious, from what I've seen.

[Cleita]

6. Not only that, many of those cities will pony up the money

for a fancy sports stadium.

[CAG]

8. oooh, yet another opportunistic agnostic televangelist

[cordelia]

33. Love it! Called it for what it is.

[malaise]

51. And that's the freaking truth

Batshit crazy doesn't describe some of these people.

[Logical]

7. Tornado deaths average about 80 per year. A low number....

To consider spending a lot of money.

[Cleita]

10. OMG! You seem to not think those children who are dead and missing

aren't important? I am frankly appalled at your reply.

[Logical]

14. Money is not unlimited! You realize that? 6000 children die in...

Car accidents a year! 1000 drown!
Spend money on car seats for poor parents first!!!
Tornados are very rare events!

[Cleita]

17. There's plenty of money once we get it away from the 1%.

Tornadoes are not rare events. Look up in the sky any time there is a big storm and you will see the funnels forming in the sky. I do not buy into your right wing collateral damage argument. If there is any chance at all an event can endanger our school children we must address it, whether it's guns or tornadoes.

[Logical]

19. Fatal tornados are extremely rare events. n-t

[Cleita]

20. Fatal anything are rare events, yet if there are chances they could

happen, they should be anticipated for. For instance in California, where we get earthquakes, they aren't as frequent or as fatal as you might imagine, yet we go out of our way to build our buildings and road structures to withstand very large earthquakes even though a big one might happen once a decade in order to save lives, not put those lives on a cost spread sheet as you seem to do.

[Logical]

21. And if you knew one state would receive all the tornados we...

Could help make that state safe!

Earth quakes kill 1000s! Destroy a city's infrastructure! Tornados do not collapse bridges or high rise buildings!

[Cleita]

22. I think schools and hospitals should be made safe if nothing else.

They house the most vulnerable people in the population and anything that saves their lives should be done.

[LanternWaste]

54. hat is the precise number of deaths needed to "consider spending a lot of money..."?

I imagine that reinforced concrete basements could be used for any number of things besides simply tornado protections... much as was done in my elementary, middle and high schools in north central Texas.

Your premise does beg the question though... what is the precise number of deaths needed to "consider spending a lot of money..."? On what objective measure is that based on?

[kwassa]

9. Bedrock. To create basements or tunnels requires dynamite.

Bedrock is right below the surface there. Many create above ground shelters out of reinforced concrete, as it is so difficult to dig down.

[Cleita]

12. These are people's children we are talking about.

It's worth busting the bedrock. There is plenty of dynamite to mine minerals, but not enough to protect children?

[oldhippie]

60. It sounds like you are another one willing to spend as much ......

... of someone else's money as required to do what you think is right.

[Cleita]

62. Yes, I am, socialist commie that I am. Also, I don't believe it's

someone else's money. It's money paid in taxes by the poor and middle class that isn't being spent on the infrastructure needed to protect them and their children. Instead it's being spent on war that enriches those who don't really pay taxes very much.

[otohara]

66. This is Nothing Compared to The Subsidies and Money Hidden by American Corporations

how do you like subsidizing poor Apple, GE, Koch Industries?

[oldhippie]

69. WTF are you talking about? .....

What does that have to do with the subject?

Never mind, don't tell me.

[Ganja Ninja]

48. I've seen steel reinforced concrete slabs over 6 feet thick busted up with big jack hammers.

How do you think they bust up bedrock in New York City on construction projects? They use big ass Jack Hammers mounted on Backhoes. It may cost more but the idea that it's so expensive it can't be done especially on a project like a public school seems like a lame excuse to me. Even on a house you don't need to dig a full basement. All you need is a small room big enough to hold a family until the storm passes.

[Cleita]

65. I've seen rock dynamited to get at ores in mines and

removed quickly and efficiently with the right equipment. There is no profit in protecting children though, so even though we have the engineering know how, unless there are diamonds in those rocks, it suddenly becomes impossible to do.

[onehandle]

11. Thank you. First thing I thought.

Schools in tornado alley without underground shelter?

Time to ask for your tax money back.

[Cleita]

13. And there are those who are saying it would be too expensive

and the few deaths a year wouldn't justify the cost. Really?

[Logical]

15. You seem to be to emotional to discuss this! n-t

[Cleita]

18. Of course I'm emotional. I actually have a heart.

Too bad you left yours somewhere on Vulcan.

[randome]

34. We make these kind of calculations all the time.

I don't think Logical is saying it's not worth the expense to save lives. But the country is simply not going to rise up and spend millions of dollars on Oklahoma to protect against a rare event.

That's simple reality.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[Cleita]

37. Therein lies the problem. It's a conservative problem, we can't save one life

when it costs too much? When did DU become Free Republic.

[randome]

75. We should lower the speed limit back down to 55 to save lives.

We should confiscate bicycles and motorcycles because they're too dangerous. We should install cameras in every nook and cranny of the world because they would save lives.

What's that, you say? Such efforts would be restrictive and run afoul of our liberties?

So there is a price we are willing to pay.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[Cleita]

76. False equivalency argument.

You are better than that, aren't you?

[LanternWaste]

55. What then is the precise amount of deaths that would then allow consideration for the construction?

What then is the precise amount of deaths that would then allow consideration for the construction? On what objective number is that based?

[randome]

74. There isn't a spreadsheet calculation to identify that.

When the speed limit was raised from 55 to 70, we knew there would be additional deaths but it was considered 'acceptable'. It's not something we can be precise about, a sort of gestalt decision gets made.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[LanternWaste]

56. You seem to be applying a subjective premise to an objective measure-- quite emotional also.

You seem to be applying a subjective premise (cost) to an objective measure (# of hurricanes per year per square mile)-- you also too emotional to discuss without objective numbers (lacking a cost/benefit analysis to validate a premise seem rather illogical-- bordering on acting hysterical...)

Six of one, half a dozen of the other... but I do understand why you would attempt to hold others to a higher standard than you hold yourself-- it's quite convenient.

[Logical]

57. How much should you spend to save 1 life in a million to 1 chance? n-t

[LeftInTX]

23. I do not know why those schools did not have storm shelters

Although it requires dynamite to blast for basements, we've got them in the hospitals, banks and larger schools here in San Antonio.

(The basements in San Antonio are mainly for utilities. We don't get much in the way of tornadoes down here)

[Cleita]

24. Really, in San Antonio?

I lived north of there in Boerne for a couple of winters and I remember the tornado warnings on the radio although I think only a small one hit the time I was there a little north of Boerne, but yes I think schools and hospitals especially should have some kind of bunkers in case of disasters that could come from weather. Here in California, it's the opposite. When we have earthquakes it's safer to be outdoors, well away from buildings that might fall and glass that could break on you. However, earthquakes have practically no warning so diving under a bed, table or desk is your next best bet.

[LeftInTX]

25. I've lived here 30 years

We had an F2 during Hurricane Gilbert in 1988 and an F2 last year. There was one death from the Hurricane Gilbert tornado. We get a few F1s now and then. Flash floods are a big issue here as you may remember.

[Cleita]

28. Yep, I do remember the flooding. Scary weather all right.

I guess as a Californian I was much more scared of the threatened tornadoes than the locals. I lived in Kansas too but never got used to the tornado warnings there as well.

[Egalitarian Thug]

26. Real estate developers and corrupt legislators.

Apparently all knowledge acquired prior to the 1970s has been lost along with our capacity to learn.

[Cleita]

30. I'm not buy the rocky ground argument for not building bunkers.

At least the additional expense should be taken on for schools and hospitals, where we keep our most vulnerable citizens. If there was oil under there, they would quickly find the funds soon enough.

[Egalitarian Thug]

36. You're absolutely right. That's just an excuse.

Just another case of "capitalists" getting away with murder, plain & simple.

[Cleita]

40. Thank you. Until we dump the "it can't be done" BS, we will still live in the

richest third world country in the world where a few get everything and the rest of us not even bones thrown to us anymore. Believe me if we can go to the Moon, and melt our planet's frozen CO2 reserves with carbon emissions in order to keep the wealthiest in the world wealthy, we can build a few tornado bunkers under schools in tornado alley.

[Ganja Ninja]

50. Or the lame Dynamite excuse either.

Buildings are built all the time in places with rocky ground. Dynamite isn't required for busting rock in New York City.

[Cleita]

52. Even if dynamite is required, it's the cheapest stuff around. n/t

[kwassa]

73. It isn't? How would you do it?

[SoCalDem]

27. Low bid regulations for public buildings.

low/no taxes,,roll the dice & say a prayer..

[Cleita]

29. Now I just heard that Senator Coburn of OK doesn't want any disaster

relief unless there are budget cuts elsewhere on the budget. These people need to go.

[Ganja Ninja]

49. Regardless of who the low bidder is on a building ...

They still have o follow a plan and a set of written specifications. If a storm shelter is in the design they have to include it in their price. If it's not part of the plan then it's not the builder's fault. Frankly it ought to be part of the building code in tornado prone areas and high cost is just a lame excuse for not having proper priorities.

[cynatnite]

31. MONEY...

Donations helped pay for that college while elementary schools rely on very limited public funds and operate on a strict unforgiving budget.

In OKC and Moore, they have very large school districts. In tornado alley, you're talking thousands and thousands of schools.

The money to fit all these schools with basements do not exist. The political will to make it reality has zero chance.

[Cleita]

32. If there were oil under there they would find the money, trust me.

It's time to change this.

[cynatnite]

35. I'm not disagreeing. I grew up in Moore...

and the money has never existed. Out of the Oklahoma schools I went to, only one was fitted with what could almost be called a basement. It was just a lower level of the building with a floor on top of it.

Also, it wouldn't have mattered that much at Plaza Towers. That school suffered a direct hit from that tornado.

We need to do a better job of predicting these storms, their intensity and scope.

I do think there are many ways we can do better, but the complexities and political will make it nearly impossible. It's sad, but true.

[Cleita]

38. I'm not talking basements, but bunkers and tunnels, a difference.

One of those children killed could have grown up to be the next Jesus or Einstein or Da Vinci for all we know. We in the USA know that states like OK can't pay for all these things which is why they need federal funds from states like CA who have a lot. That's the way it works. The rich states like CA pay for the poorer states like OK, but with our dysfunctional Congress of the past two decades to write bills to address just these things, all social progress has been put aside for partisan bickering and paying off the lobbyists of special interest groups mainly Wall Street and Global Energy and Military Industrial corporations. Wake up and look at the truth.

[cynatnite]

41. There are thousands of schools in tornado alley which stretches across several states...

There is no feasible way to build tunnels and bunkers for all of them.

[closeupready]

42. Sure there is. Why the fuck not?

[cynatnite]

44. You are talking tens of thousands of schools in small towns...

large school districts in cities. You are talking very limited budgets. Tornado alley stretches across 8 states. That's not counting the states that are traditionally not a part of tornado alley, but still get a significant amount of tornados.

How do you expect to fit thousands of schools in several states, many of them in poor areas, for tunnels and bunkers?

Why do you think it's so simple?

[Cleita]

53. Many of those eight states you speak of have had the foresight to install such

underground protections, so it's not tens of thousands, but there still are too many that are unprotected.

[Cleita]

43. Really? Look at our military budget and cut it in half, which is what

should be done. There is plenty of money there and plenty more money to be taxed from the 1% who are getting a free ride these days. Why should the Cayman Islands and Switzerland be the graveyards of our economy while the uber riche bury their money, what should be our money, in their vaults?

[cynatnite]

45. It's not just the money...

You are forgetting how wide of an area tornado alley is and how many tens of thousands of schools stretch across that area. It covers several states...that's not to mention the areas that are not considered a part of tornado alley, but still have a significant tornados.

I don't get why people think it's so simple as money.

[Cleita]

46. Not all those schools in all those states are in areas where rock has to

be blasted, so the cost would vary. It could be done and should be done.

[closeupready]

47. It took 8 years to put a man on the moon, but

you're saying it's impossible to build tornado shelters for schools for children. Bullshit.

As the other person says, cut the defense budget in half and put that money to use making schools safer in tornado alley.

[closeupready]

39. It's a valid question, IMO.

[pstokely]

59. Soil must not have been hard in that part of KS

nt

[Cleita]

64. Hard has nothing to do with it. It's an unwillingness to invest in infrastructure

that affords maximum protection against possible climate or earth events. Dynamite isn't that expensive. Every terrorist knows how to blow up stuff on a budget. We have the technology to blast a hole, remove the rocks and then enforce it with steel and concrete.

[pstokely]

78. Did you go to K-state or kU?

Basements are common in those areas, but less common in the Southern part of KS

[Cleita]

80. I went to St. Mary College in Leavenworth and they were tunnels not basements.

We had basement floors too, but they weren't used as shelters.

[1KansasDem]

61. What college did you go to in Kansas.

I've never heard of tunnels at any of the universities here.
I think K-state has a dorm connected to the union but not all campus buildings.
Just curious.

[Cleita]

63. I didn't go to a university but a woman's college.

I believe it's still there, St, Mary College in Leavenworth, Kansas.

[Liberal_in_LA]

67. tunnels must be very expensive.

[Cleita]

68. So is life. I hope you aren't on the "it's okay to lose lives when they

cost too much" bandwagon. It seems to permeate DU these days and it's not very progressive in principle.

[Liberal_in_LA]

70. no, but communities are unlikely to include tunnels under every public building

[Cleita]

71. Somebody else had a suggestion about community tunnels or bunkers

to ride out storms. It could be more cost effective and even better when you think about it because then everyone is included not just a specific group like school children or rich people.

[Cleita]

77. Rachel just said that there are FEMA funds available for safe rooms to

be built in tornado alley. I hope Oklahomans even the Obama hating Tea Party Oklahomans look into it. It seems funds are specifically available for schools as well as other venues including private residences.

[NuttyFluffers]

79. the cost benefit analysis says it's too much $$$.

a few children are expendable to construction company profits and school board admin salaries.

*cough*

forgive me there, I briefly became an un-American socialist-fascist politicizing this tragedy in the face tenuous reconstruction contracts and charity fundraising. i forgot my priorities. 'an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, and goddamit, that costs us a sale!'

[Cleita]

81. Thank you.

It seems to be a concept lost here on a lot of people. If something is available that can save one life, be it health care, a miracle drug, or construction engineered to withstand disasters, no expense should be spared to provide it to everyone universally. It's what should make us human. Life and death cannot be measured according to a spread sheet analysis.