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ScreamingMeemie

(68,918 posts)
Tue May 21, 2013, 04:36 PM May 2013

ACLU of Florida Statement on Prosecution of 18-Year-Old Kaitlyn Hunt

http://aclufl.org/2013/05/21/aclu-of-florida-statement-on-prosecution-of-18-year-old-kaitlyn-hunt/


snip-

he following is a statement from the ACLU of Florida on the case of Kaitlyn Hunt, a Sebastian, Florida high school student who faces felony charges for having a relationship with a 15-year-old female schoolmate.

The ACLU of Florida condemns the prosecution of 18-year-old Kaitlyn Hunt. The facts as we understand them suggest that the state is prosecuting Kaitlyn for engaging in behavior that is both fairly innocuous and extremely common. Such behavior occurs every day in tens of thousands of high schools across the country, yet those other students are not facing felony convictions (and, in Florida, the lifetime consequences of a felony conviction) and potential lifelong branding as sex offenders. This is a life sentence for behavior by teenagers that is all too common, whether they are male or female, gay or straight. High-school relationships may be fleeting, but felony convictions are not.

While effective laws are certainly needed to protect Florida’s children from sexual predators, one cannot seriously maintain that Kaitlyn’s behavior was predatory. Application of this law to Kaitlyn’s conduct is another example of the troubling trend in Florida and across the country of criminalizing teenagers. The school-to-prison pipeline is filled with students whose behavior is better addressed by school officials and parents, not by a criminal justice system that turns ordinary teenagers into convicted felons who are prevented from meaningfully contributing to society because of their unjust convictions. Even if Kaitlyn is able to avoid sex-offender registration, a felony conviction will harm her for the rest of her life, catastrophically damaging her employment prospects and even her right to participate in her community as a citizen and vote.

Her promising future could be ruined merely because she engaged in behavior that countless other students in every school operating under the state attorney’s jurisdiction also engage in. This prosecution does nothing to protect Florida’s young people but instead causes a great deal of harm.

-snip

http://www.change.org/petitions/assistant-state-attorney-brian-workman-stop-the-prosecution-of-an-18-year-old-girl-in-a-same-sex-relationship


On edit: It has also come out today that the state attorney has dropped charges in a similar case (same ages/same district) just today.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/FreeKate/

http://www.freekate.net/


Her mother's words on how this came about, for those concerned about the facts:

As the summer of 2012 came to an end, the future looked bright for 17-year-old Sebastian River High School senior Kaitlyn Hunt. Voted the student with "Most School Spirit" by her peers, Kaitlyn was an active cheerleader, a basketball player, a camp counselor and cheering coach, and a medical assistant training to join the nursing program at Valencia College after graduation. She looked forward to a career helping others and a memorable final year of high school.

"At the beginning of the school year, Kaitlyn made friends with a 14-year-old freshmen girl in Sebastian River High's IB program who played varsity sports and took classes with upper classmen. The girls were peers in the same social circle, and as happens every day high schools across America, their friendship eventually developed into more. In September, shortly after Kaitlyn's 18th birthday, the girls began dating, and they eventually expressed their affection for one another in intimate ways.

When the girls' basketball coach found out that two of her players were dating, she kicked Kaitlyn off the team and informed her girlfriend's parents that their daughter was in a same-sex relationship. The parents then conspired with police to entrap Kaitlyn and press charges.

The police recorded a phone conversation between the two girls, who today are 18 and 15, in which they discussed their relationship. Kaitlyn was arrested and charged with two counts of felony lewd and lascivious battery on a child 12-16. Kaitlyn's girlfriend denies that Kaitlyn ever pressured her and is adamant that their relationship is entirely consensual, but her parents are out to destroy Kaitlyn's life. After two separate judges ruled that Kaitlyn could finish her senior year with her peers, her girlfriend's parents appealed to the Indian River County School Board, who expelled Kaitlyn sent her to the alternative school.

The law is designed to protect our children, but the law does not serve its purpose when it is applied to consensual behavior between peers."
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ACLU of Florida Statement on Prosecution of 18-Year-Old Kaitlyn Hunt (Original Post) ScreamingMeemie May 2013 OP
WTF? FLyellowdog May 2013 #1
There is a window of opportunity that was used here... ScreamingMeemie May 2013 #4
I dont think the story is quite accurate. HooptieWagon May 2013 #7
Kaitlyn turned 18 in September. If you go to the FreeKate.net page the story is laid out. ScreamingMeemie May 2013 #8
That is correct rebecca_herman May 2013 #30
Re being "old" for her grade - Ms. Toad May 2013 #49
here rebecca_herman May 2013 #51
This law is often used against older boyfriends of whom the parents disapprove Yo_Mama May 2013 #11
I don't think it should be used in this manner. Or, I think we have to stop letting those over 18 ScreamingMeemie May 2013 #12
At what age do you draw the line shawn703 May 2013 #15
I think you need to reread that. ScreamingMeemie May 2013 #16
do you believe that... Bully Taw May 2013 #18
She's a kid. ScreamingMeemie May 2013 #20
but, they were not dropped in others... Bully Taw May 2013 #23
Then we need to not let 18 year olds go to high school anymore. End of story ScreamingMeemie May 2013 #25
that makes sense Bully Taw May 2013 #28
Perhaps we ought to just not prosecute within the high school peer group? LadyHawkAZ May 2013 #46
perhaps easier Bully Taw May 2013 #59
Exactly shawn703 May 2013 #60
Weeeeelll, that right there's a multi-layered answer LadyHawkAZ May 2013 #85
Thank you... ScreamingMeemie May 2013 #67
14 year old is a child. 18 year old is a legal adult. LisaL May 2013 #70
I don't care about the male or female aspect... I'd have the same opinion, regardless of preference. ScreamingMeemie May 2013 #72
Freshmen are generally 14-15 years old shawn703 May 2013 #22
My son's freshman class is made up of 14-17 year olds. ScreamingMeemie May 2013 #27
Wouldn't the wisest course of action for an 18yo be shawn703 May 2013 #32
The wisest course of action is to not prosecute high school kids. ScreamingMeemie May 2013 #34
She's an adult shawn703 May 2013 #36
She's a kid... and 14 year olds unfortunately do become sexually active. ScreamingMeemie May 2013 #37
I'll make it simple shawn703 May 2013 #39
Come on, man... these are teenagers... davidn3600 May 2013 #56
A lot of statutory rape? shawn703 May 2013 #57
The fact that there are some here who support child molestation felony charges when the ScreamingMeemie May 2013 #61
A 14 year old girl can give consent? shawn703 May 2013 #63
Since 14 year old is below the legal age of consent, how is it possible for a 14 year old LisaL May 2013 #65
Please read the OP. ScreamingMeemie May 2013 #66
The point is that kids dont think about this stuff davidn3600 May 2013 #74
Obviously this one did think about this stuff shawn703 May 2013 #84
And did you know the details of the statutory rape law for your state Ms. Toad May 2013 #50
I knew the age of adulthood shawn703 May 2013 #53
So the answer is no. Ms. Toad May 2013 #75
Obviously the adults did know what the laws are shawn703 May 2013 #79
So which state do you live in Ms. Toad May 2013 #87
Currently or when I was 18? shawn703 May 2013 #92
That's exactly the point I've been trying to make Ms. Toad May 2013 #94
Let me ask you a question because Im very curious... davidn3600 May 2013 #88
If my 14 year old son shawn703 May 2013 #93
Are you sure of your facts? I believe you are in error. MADem May 2013 #83
There is a difference between the age of consent - Ms. Toad May 2013 #86
In your summary, the victim in Florida has to be sixteen for the 24 y.o. thing to kick in. MADem May 2013 #91
My freshman kid is 16 trumad May 2013 #55
it is the law... Bully Taw May 2013 #17
She is not being charged with statutory rape. ScreamingMeemie May 2013 #19
would statutory rape misdemeanor... Bully Taw May 2013 #21
I could live with the parents talking to the child and her parents ScreamingMeemie May 2013 #24
as would i Bully Taw May 2013 #26
Please reread our discussion. ScreamingMeemie May 2013 #33
you are absolving an adult Bully Taw May 2013 #41
I need to chime in here, just because the law makes an arbitrary decision on "adulthood" truebrit71 May 2013 #44
So. Are you then arguing that all statutory rape laws should be abolished? LisaL May 2013 #64
Not in the slightest. I am suggesting that some intelligence is brought into the equation... truebrit71 May 2013 #76
it's only going to get worse due to the redshirting trend rebecca_herman May 2013 #31
Agreed. ScreamingMeemie May 2013 #38
and not even just the dating issue rebecca_herman May 2013 #40
it's very much a socioeconomic thing where I live rebecca_herman May 2013 #42
Wrong law - it's a second or third degree felony depending on age of perp. Yo_Mama May 2013 #13
This is horrifying. CaliforniaPeggy May 2013 #2
It's finally gaining some traction in the press. ScreamingMeemie May 2013 #5
Double standards HockeyMom May 2013 #3
Yep. Her parents feel that Kaitlyn "made" their daughter gay. ScreamingMeemie May 2013 #6
Don't they have faith that they can pray their daughter straight? Downwinder May 2013 #10
Yeah, pray that Gay away. RC May 2013 #14
What happened to that black kid was horrible Horse with no Name May 2013 #77
His name was Marcus Dixon and he currently plays for the Kansas City Chiefs. ScreamingMeemie May 2013 #80
Oh my goodness! Horse with no Name May 2013 #81
I remember watching that Oprah show with tears in my eyes. ScreamingMeemie May 2013 #82
Just another sunny day in the sunshine state. William769 May 2013 #9
Yet another arrest. Loge23 May 2013 #29
I don't know... ScreamingMeemie May 2013 #35
Does it have to be all or nothing? rebecca_herman May 2013 #43
Good response, and I agree completely. NaturalHigh May 2013 #45
It is what seems most reasonable to me rebecca_herman May 2013 #47
What's sad is that her parents have offered that. They have offered to move ScreamingMeemie May 2013 #69
+1 HiPointDem May 2013 #54
People want prisons to be the answer to everything davidn3600 May 2013 #48
Revenue generator LadyHawkAZ May 2013 #89
Are we SURE we're not letting our support for Gay Rights get in the way of our judgement here? brett_jv May 2013 #52
Let's take this out of HS HockeyMom May 2013 #58
17 is above the age of consent in most states. LisaL May 2013 #62
"Common sense on a case by case basis is what is needed." That is exactly what I posted ScreamingMeemie May 2013 #68
Common sense on a case by case basis? LisaL May 2013 #71
Have a nice day LisaL... as you read through this thread, you will see ScreamingMeemie May 2013 #73
Plenty - and apparently you are not clear, yourself, about the applicable laws Ms. Toad May 2013 #90
Judges have discretion HockeyMom May 2013 #95
...and the mug shot .coms will enjoy the extra traffic from her picture and personal info ...forever L0oniX May 2013 #78

FLyellowdog

(4,276 posts)
1. WTF?
Tue May 21, 2013, 04:42 PM
May 2013

Florida § 794. 05


"Unlawful sexual activity with certain minors if someone age 24 or older engages in sexual activity with someone age 16 or 17."

How can she be prosecuted? These are teenagers doing what teenagers do.

Witch. Hunt.

ScreamingMeemie

(68,918 posts)
4. There is a window of opportunity that was used here...
Tue May 21, 2013, 04:54 PM
May 2013

The girls met on the same basketball team when Kaitlyn was 17 and the other girl was 14. The basketball coach (I might add "Coach of the Year" in FL this year) kicked Kaitlyn off the team and called the other child's parents. the parents (Pentecostals, I might add) called the police instead of Kaitlyn's parents (which is what normal parents would do if face with a situation and they didn't want their child dating someone older), and had Kaitlyn arrested when she turned 18.

They felt that Kaitlyn had "turned their daughter gay."

Just when we think we're getting somewhere.

 

HooptieWagon

(17,064 posts)
7. I dont think the story is quite accurate.
Tue May 21, 2013, 05:10 PM
May 2013

Somebody with more knowledge if the situation posted here on DU that Kaitlyn had turned 18 during the summer before her senior year, when she and the younger girl (then 14) began the relationship. The younger girl has since turned 15.
Further, the arrest wasn't made as soon as Kaitlyn turned 18 (since the relationship hadn't begun yet), rather several months later. Apparently police had a bug placed on Kaitlyn's phone, where she had discussed intimate details with the younger girl.
IMO, 18-14 is a bit too big an age difference in a relationship whether gay or straight. However, it wasn't coerced, and these matters are usually handled by parents and school. It would seem that in this case, the parents of the younger girl involved police in revenge for "turning their daughter gay". They are probably ruining their relationship with their daughter, in addition to ruining Kaitlyn's life.

ScreamingMeemie

(68,918 posts)
8. Kaitlyn turned 18 in September. If you go to the FreeKate.net page the story is laid out.
Tue May 21, 2013, 05:16 PM
May 2013

Her mother also gave an interview on the radio.

It is true that Kaitlyn and her girlfriend met when Kaitlyn was just 17. The relationship started in earnest when Kaitlyn turned 18. The chargers were filed when Kaitlyn was 18 and the daughter was 15. Sorry for the misinterpretation.

The parents of both girls, as stated by Kaitlyn's mother in interviews, were aware of this relationship.

I cannot remember asking anyone I was in high school with for proof of their age before I dated them.

The police did not have a but placed on Kaitlyn's phone. The recorded a phone conversation from the daughter's house, with that girl's parents wherein the unnamed girlfriend asked Kaitlyn if she really cared for her. Kaitlyn affirmed that and then they discussed their relationship in detail. The arrest was made the next day.

The daughter has asked her parents not to press charges. The daughter does not support the charges and admits it was consensual.

For added information, the daughter ran away from home in January and called Kaitlyn to come and pick her up. This is when one of the incidents occurred.

It is apparent that this poor kid doesn't have much of a home life.


The window of opportunity being that they had to press charges before their daughter turned 16, because then it would be okay for her to date a 24 year old if she wanted to.

rebecca_herman

(617 posts)
30. That is correct
Tue May 21, 2013, 08:36 PM
May 2013

Kaitlyn was born on August 14, 1994 (of note - she was "old" for her grade - she would have qualified to start school one year earlier under Florida law), so she turned 18 on August 14, 2012 - a week before school started on August 20, 2012. The younger girl was 14 at the time and they met at school, so they definitely met after Kaitlyn turned 18. The relationship became sexual sometime between November and Christmas. Kaitlyn was arrested in February, and it's possible the parents of the other girl went to police earlier and that was the time it took to build a case. Here is the affidavit, which shows the date of birth and the dates of the relationship admitted to by both girls: http://www.scribd.com/doc/142642135/Kaitlyn-Hunt-Redacted-Affidavit-Redacted The younger girl did not turn 15 until May 2013.

Based on the age gap, I agree with there being charges but do not agree with a sex offender status for life. I was sympathetic when I first heard about this case because it was portrayed as a 15 and 17 year old who had dated long time, both sets of parents were aware, she turned 18 and then the other parents suddenly had her arrested. That can't be the case since Kaitlyn was already 18 when the relationship became sexual. Kaitlyn's parents have already been dishonest about the ages (there's still a post out there by Kaitlyn's father claiming the girls were both minors when they first had sex - not possible), so they could be lying about the motivation of the younger girl's parents as well - perhaps they just didn't want their child having sex with ANY 18 year old.

Ms. Toad

(34,060 posts)
49. Re being "old" for her grade -
Wed May 22, 2013, 03:52 AM
May 2013

My daughter turned 17 in July of her senior year (2008). She was more than a year younger than many of her classmates. It was very common around the time Kaitlyn was entering kindergarten for students with summer birthdays to be strongly encouraged to wait a year. By strongly encouraged, I mean hauled in for special counseling, required to read articles graphically depicting the number of young-in-grade students who committed - or attempted - suicide, and required to sign documents indicating I had read the literature and was insisting on starting her "early" anyway - and she had to pass a special test. So I'm finding it a bit offensive to repeatedly read that Kaitlyn was "old" for her grade - making the age difference extraordinary. Kaitlyn was far more likely to be the norm than my daughter was.

Please link to the post by Kaitlyn's father claiming the girls were both minors when they first had sex. Every post I have seem written by the parents is accurate, and has attempted to correct the inaccurate statements made by others.

rebecca_herman

(617 posts)
51. here
Wed May 22, 2013, 04:22 AM
May 2013
http://www.xojane.com/issues/kaitlyn-hunt the father posted here claiming the relationship began when they were both minors and the younger girl's parents waited until Kaitlyn turned 18 to have her arrested - that doesn't fit in with the statements that the girls met in school during Kaitlyn's senior year which started 6 days after her 18th birthday.

It could certainly be a demographic/regional thing, because where I live it only became common in more recent years to hold back later birthday children, and boys more than girls.

Yo_Mama

(8,303 posts)
11. This law is often used against older boyfriends of whom the parents disapprove
Tue May 21, 2013, 05:45 PM
May 2013

This is their law:
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0800-0899/0800/Sections/0800.04.html

If you're 18, you cannot have sex with a person under 16. It's a second degree felony. Yes, most parents won't report it, but threatening to report it allows them to stop a consensual relationship of a 13, 14 or 15 year-old with an older person of whom they disapprove.

I don't think the age of consent is going to be lowered in Florida.

ScreamingMeemie

(68,918 posts)
12. I don't think it should be used in this manner. Or, I think we have to stop letting those over 18
Tue May 21, 2013, 05:51 PM
May 2013

attend school with those under 16. In the case of Texas, they just passed a law that is the exact opposite of that. 18-year-olds are now allowed to finish out middle school.

A similar case was (in the same district) was dropped just today.

While I don't want to speculate, I believe these parents could be "somebodies" in the community.

Imagine if they had just talked to Kaitlyn and her parents. I don't think this should be allowed without a "warning shot" in the case of kids (who really can think for themselves) with parents who disapprove.

shawn703

(2,702 posts)
15. At what age do you draw the line
Tue May 21, 2013, 07:15 PM
May 2013

And you would think a warning shot is no longer warranted? When the offender is 20? 24? 30? There has to be a line drawn somewhere, and 18 is when we reach adulthood in this country and need to be held accountable for actions like this.

ScreamingMeemie

(68,918 posts)
16. I think you need to reread that.
Tue May 21, 2013, 07:20 PM
May 2013

I am talking about students in high school; students who, oftentimes, don't ask for proof of age before asking for a date.

Right now, in FL it would be perfectly legal for a 24-year-old to date a 16 year-old.

If 18 is the age when we reach adulthood, then schools should (as a matter of protecting the children) no longer allow atendance after one's birthday (thank God I graduated on my birthday).

The law that is meant to protect children from actual sexual predators is being abused.

 

Bully Taw

(194 posts)
18. do you believe that...
Tue May 21, 2013, 07:32 PM
May 2013

this woman did not know the child's age? Of course she did. Going to school together (18+ and under age kids) does not mean they have to have sex. Restraint is the word I'm looking for. Some students graduate when they are 19, and they go to school with freshmen who often are 15. Because they go to school together does not mean that they can have sex. If my 15 year old daughter came home with an 18 year old boyfriend/girlfriend, i would most certainly have a problem with it. these laws are in place to protect children that do not have parents that are looking out for their well being.

ScreamingMeemie

(68,918 posts)
20. She's a kid.
Tue May 21, 2013, 07:34 PM
May 2013

Sorry, but I'm not going to caller her a woman...when she's a kid.

Would you go directly to the police if you're daughter was dating an 18-year-old?

If I didn't like it, I think I'd go to the parents first.

To argue this is ridiculous.


"these laws are in place to protect children that do not have parents that are looking out for their well being." < and that is not what is happening here.

Case by case is the way to charge these.

And, I repeat, the exact same charges were dropped against another student in the district today by the DA.

 

Bully Taw

(194 posts)
23. but, they were not dropped in others...
Tue May 21, 2013, 07:40 PM
May 2013

yes, i would go to the parents first. and, i would talk to my daughter. if this situation persisted, i would not rule out going to the police.

i will call the 18 year old a woman, as the law would. She is not a kid, she is responsible for her decisions.

 

Bully Taw

(194 posts)
28. that makes sense
Tue May 21, 2013, 07:49 PM
May 2013

perhaps, instead, older students could practice some restraint. Just a thought. What is next for you? 18 year olds shouldn't live in the same neighborhood as underage children, they should not be in a public area together? Maybe, adults should just not date underage kids. Crazy!

LadyHawkAZ

(6,199 posts)
46. Perhaps we ought to just not prosecute within the high school peer group?
Wed May 22, 2013, 01:15 AM
May 2013

It would be easier, more rational and much more workable than the ol' aspirin between the knees. Just a thought.

 

Bully Taw

(194 posts)
59. perhaps easier
Wed May 22, 2013, 09:17 AM
May 2013

but not more rational. why do you think that restraint is not a solution here? why do you want to absolve legal adults of their responsibility?

shawn703

(2,702 posts)
60. Exactly
Wed May 22, 2013, 09:24 AM
May 2013

This attempted defense of adults taking advantage of children displayed by some on this board is mind-boggling.

LadyHawkAZ

(6,199 posts)
85. Weeeeelll, that right there's a multi-layered answer
Wed May 22, 2013, 03:29 PM
May 2013

Last edited Wed May 22, 2013, 06:24 PM - Edit history (1)

Because the law as it stands is unjust, and I am an activist. Changing the unjust is what activists do. Legal adults face felony charges for smoking pot, too. Shouldn't happen.

Because the relationship was between schoolmates within a peer group, and telling a teenager that they must now abandon the people they care about because they have just had the wrong birthday is plain flat-out cruel.

Because I have not spent the past 25 years involved in the battle to ensure that these kids have access to proper sex education, birth control, and abortion if it is needed, and to make it less traumatic for LGBT teenagers to come out, just to turn around and tell them "Slap an aspirin between yer knees, ladies, or we'll ship you/your partner off to jail!" the minute they put those tools into practice. I find that attitude sickening. It puzzles me that you don't.

Because the idea that other people, even if they are parents, want to have the controlling vote in their teen's sex lives creeps me out, in the same way that purity balls do.

Because this law is too easily abused on the whim of an angry, controlling or abusive parent. Exhibit A: Kaitlyn Hunt.

Because if she'd bullied, slapped or punched the other girl fighting over a boy, it would have been a misdemeanor at best and more likely just a suspension from school. And it never would have made the national news.

Do feel free to explain how you find this situation rational in any way.

LisaL

(44,973 posts)
70. 14 year old is a child. 18 year old is a legal adult.
Wed May 22, 2013, 09:46 AM
May 2013

States actually raised age of consent. And most people seem to support having an age of consent. Until it comes to actual cases. And then people start getting upset. Well, the law as written makes it illegal for an 18 year old to have a sexual relationship with a 14 year old. Doesn't matter if 18 year old is a male or a female.

ScreamingMeemie

(68,918 posts)
72. I don't care about the male or female aspect... I'd have the same opinion, regardless of preference.
Wed May 22, 2013, 09:51 AM
May 2013

If she's not a kid, she shouldn't be in high school with other kids.

She's a kid. An 18 year old high school boy is a kid. No high school kid should face felony charges and a lifetime on the sex offender registry for poor choice made in high school.

It's time to use these laws for the reason they were intended.

shawn703

(2,702 posts)
22. Freshmen are generally 14-15 years old
Tue May 21, 2013, 07:39 PM
May 2013

An 18 year old senior doesn't need to see proof of age to know that someone in the freshman class should be off limits by subtracting three years from their own age.

I think most people can get through their senior year of high school without taking advantage of freshmen, so there's no need to kick them out once they reach 18.

ScreamingMeemie

(68,918 posts)
27. My son's freshman class is made up of 14-17 year olds.
Tue May 21, 2013, 07:46 PM
May 2013

I think most parents don't flip out and call the police when their children have relationships with fellow classmates. (My son went to homecoming with a girl 2.5 years older than him) They speak with the child or the parents if they have a problem. It really is that simple. I think most of the time we don't hear about this because most parents aren't idiots.

In case you question the age differences in my son's class, Bush's Texas NCLB EOC testing has led to major age discrepancies, along with ending age restrictions on public school attendance.

shawn703

(2,702 posts)
32. Wouldn't the wisest course of action for an 18yo be
Tue May 21, 2013, 08:48 PM
May 2013

To start with the assumption that a freshman is most likely in the 14-15 range rather than the less common 16-17 year old?

I said this on another thread, which is if an adult takes advantage of my 14 year old, I'm going to the cops. The time for going to mommy and daddy first stops at 18.

ScreamingMeemie

(68,918 posts)
34. The wisest course of action is to not prosecute high school kids.
Tue May 21, 2013, 09:16 PM
May 2013

Sorry, she's a kid.

And, if that's how you handle high school romances than I feel very sorry for any present or future children you have. And, on edit, hope if you are unfortunately in this situation, you would change your mind to your child's please. Also, if your child was on the "other side," that you would not turn your back on her/him and instead defend her/him and hope for sanity to restore itself within your DA's office.

How horrible that would be for them.

shawn703

(2,702 posts)
36. She's an adult
Tue May 21, 2013, 09:49 PM
May 2013

Unless you're suggesting the age of majority should be increased?

A 14 year old is not mature enough to decide to become sexually active. As her parents, we do what we can to protect them from bad choices they might make. If an adult interferes with that, they'll pay the price for it.

One of the parents of the older child was a former police officer, knew about the relationship and didn't counsel her on the dangers of being involved with a girl so young. That's where the mistake was made, not with the younger girl's parents.

ScreamingMeemie

(68,918 posts)
37. She's a kid... and 14 year olds unfortunately do become sexually active.
Tue May 21, 2013, 10:11 PM
May 2013

Throwing their high school girl/boyfriends behind bars is not the way to deal with it.

It completely rests with the younger girl's parents. These are kids.

shawn703

(2,702 posts)
39. I'll make it simple
Tue May 21, 2013, 10:24 PM
May 2013

If a criminal record and registration as a sex offender is not part of the life plan for someone 18 years or older, then they need to keep their hands off of 14 year olds. That should be a lesson every parent should teach their kid, because I can guarantee that myself and the parents of the younger girl aren't the only ones out there that would have them thrown in jail.

 

davidn3600

(6,342 posts)
56. Come on, man... these are teenagers...
Wed May 22, 2013, 07:49 AM
May 2013

They are on the same sports teams, sometimes the same classes, the same lunch periods, they all text and on facebook, on the same bus rides home... they are GOING to have relationships. That's not going to stop, and there is no law or law enforcement that will stop that.

I remember reading a survey where 2/3rds of recent high school seniors say they've had sex before graduation. That's a lot of statutory rape. You want to throw 2/3rds of high school seniors in jail? Are you going to build the jails for that because it sure as hell wont be on my dime. With all the problems in the world, teenagers sexually experimenting with each other ranks quite low on my list of most important issues.

A judge just said last month that Plan B can be bought by 15 year olds. Everyone in DU cheered that news. I imagine you disagree with that decision too?

shawn703

(2,702 posts)
57. A lot of statutory rape?
Wed May 22, 2013, 08:35 AM
May 2013

Two thirds of high school seniors having sex before graduation doesn't mean that they all had sex with adults when they were 14. Or that the 18 year old seniors were having sex with 14 year old freshmen. Why would we need to lock up 2/3 of high school seniors?

I agreed with the decision to allow Plan B to be bought by 15 year olds. What does a 15 year old's access to contraception have to do with keeping older and more mature adult students from taking advantage of a child?

ScreamingMeemie

(68,918 posts)
61. The fact that there are some here who support child molestation felony charges when the
Wed May 22, 2013, 09:25 AM
May 2013

other child has stated this was consensual is mind-blowing.

LisaL

(44,973 posts)
65. Since 14 year old is below the legal age of consent, how is it possible for a 14 year old
Wed May 22, 2013, 09:40 AM
May 2013

to have a consensual relationship?

 

davidn3600

(6,342 posts)
74. The point is that kids dont think about this stuff
Wed May 22, 2013, 10:04 AM
May 2013

High schoolers turn 18 their senior year all the time. Do they break off their relationships because of that? No. Should we expect them to? In my opinion, no.

You really believe that there are not any 18 year old seniors dating freshman out there? This is common in every high school in the nation. Very few such cases are prosecuted.

shawn703

(2,702 posts)
84. Obviously this one did think about this stuff
Wed May 22, 2013, 02:35 PM
May 2013

"New evidence released today shows Facebook messages to the victim from Kate, stating she knew she'd get in trouble for dating a girl so young.

"Before Miss Hunt was arrested there were conversations on social media that she knew she was 18 and she knew what she was wrong with a younger person," Loar said. "I think you must look at all the facts involved.""

http://cbs12.com/news/top-stories/stories/free-kate-new-bombshell-kaitlyn-hunt-teen-lesbian-affair-7523.shtml?wap=0

Ms. Toad

(34,060 posts)
50. And did you know the details of the statutory rape law for your state
Wed May 22, 2013, 04:10 AM
May 2013

when you were a senior in high school?

Do you know them for the state you live in now (Without running to look them up)?

Are you aware that there are many states in which the relationship between these two is perfectly legal (and two states in which there could even be a 10 year gap in ages)?

Would you feel the same way if they had been a 15 year old freshman and a 17 year old senior when the sexual relationship started, and the older student turned 18 during her senior year? The law treats this situation as identical. The day the older student turns 18 they must end the relationship which was legal the day before or risk conviction of a felony and being labeled a sex offender for life.

The freshman in this case was taking classes with upper classmen as part of the IB program. She was on the varsity sports team. There are no magic lines drawn in high school between one grade and another. Students move in peer groups which are not defined by age lines, and maturity levels at any particular age vary considerably. A law which draws sharp lines is not well suited for distinguishing which peer relationships in high school are, by law, rape and which are consensual - yet that is precisely what this law attempts to do.

We should not be making criminals out of high school students merely because they fall in love with a peer who is on the other side of an invisible line. (I am not supporting pedophilia - but I am suggesting that once you throw kids of similar ages in a melting pot together they do just that).

shawn703

(2,702 posts)
53. I knew the age of adulthood
Wed May 22, 2013, 05:37 AM
May 2013

And I knew it was against the law for adults to have sexual contact with children. There doesn't need to be any confusion with the differences of laws between states if that's what we make sure our kids know.


Ms. Toad

(34,060 posts)
75. So the answer is no.
Wed May 22, 2013, 11:08 AM
May 2013

You had no idea then, and you have no idea now whether the relationship between these two would have been legal in the state at the time you grew up, or now.

It is not illegal, in all states, for an 18 year old to have sex with a 14 year old. And it is not illegal much of anywhere for an 18 year old to have sex with a 16 or 17 year old child. But in some states it is illegal for an 18 year old adult and a 17 year old who are one day apart in age to have sex on the 18 year old's birthday (while there is still the legal adult/minor distinction).

So the laws of the state do matter, and when adults don't even know what the laws are, it is unrealistic to criminalize teenagers who are acting like teenagers with their peers.

shawn703

(2,702 posts)
79. Obviously the adults did know what the laws are
Wed May 22, 2013, 11:33 AM
May 2013

Since they filed charges. And yes I do know what the laws are in my state, hence my earlier statement that if an adult took advantage of my 14 year old I would file charges too. When I was a senior in high school, the term "jailbait" was used to refer to anyone who was under 16. Whether or not 16 was the age of consent in my state or not, my peers and I were well aware of the consequences of messing around with someone underage when we were 18.

Ignorantia juris non excusat.

Ms. Toad

(34,060 posts)
87. So which state do you live in
Wed May 22, 2013, 03:48 PM
May 2013

and what are the laws - again, without going to check them. Feel free to send me the information via DU mail if you don't want to make your state of residence public here.

"jailbait" is not a legal term - and just because you perceived someone who was 16 to be "jailbait" or perceived that you could have been prosecuted at 18 does not make it so.

And it is far more likely that the girl's parents consulted an attorney or the police to find out what they could do to stop the relationship (or researched the law after a relationship they were not in favor of developed) than that they knew the laws were, since hardly anyone does.

So - are you in favor of locking up kids who are younger than 16 for having sex? That is just as illegal.

shawn703

(2,702 posts)
92. Currently or when I was 18?
Wed May 22, 2013, 04:26 PM
May 2013

Either way, I've since been to Wikipedia to look up age of consent laws because of a statement someone else made today, so it's too late for me to not check them.

Michigan (where I grew up)

The age of consent in Michigan is 16 and there is no close in age exception, unless one is an authority figure in which case the age of consent is 18.

Virginia (where I am now)

The age of consent in Virginia is 18, with a close in age exception that allows teenagers aged 15 to 17 to engage in sexual acts but only with a partner younger than 18.


So yes, when I was in 18 in Michigan my peers and I had the right perception that girls younger than 16 were off limits. And yes, I can have an 18 year old locked up in Virginia for messing with my 14 year old daughter. If I wanted to be really strict about it, I could have an 18 year old locked up on his birthday for messing with my 17 year old daughter the day before her 18th birthday - but that's extreme to me. If that's what you're getting at, I see your point - but my point has always been that 18 year olds should not be taking advantage of 14 year olds.




Also, the older girl in this situation knew what she was doing was wrong, and did it anyway:

"The misinformation on the social media sites indicates law enforcement purposely waited until miss hunt turned 18--that's not true--Miss Hunt was 18 in early August," said Sheriff Loar, "The victim was 14, and has been and was 14 throughout that whole ordeal."

New evidence released today shows Facebook messages to the victim from Kate, stating she knew she'd get in trouble for dating a girl so young.

"Before Miss Hunt was arrested there were conversations on social media that she knew she was 18 and she knew what she was wrong with a younger person," Loar said. "I think you must look at all the facts involved."

http://cbs12.com/news/top-stories/stories/free-kate-new-bombshell-kaitlyn-hunt-teen-lesbian-affair-7523.shtml?wap=0



Ms. Toad

(34,060 posts)
94. That's exactly the point I've been trying to make
Wed May 22, 2013, 05:04 PM
May 2013
So yes, when I was in 18 in Michigan my peers and I had the right perception that girls younger than 16 were off limits. And yes, I can have an 18 year old locked up in Virginia for messing with my 14 year old daughter. If I wanted to be really strict about it, I could have an 18 year old locked up on his birthday for messing with my 17 year old daughter the day before her 18th birthday - but that's extreme to me. If that's what you're getting at, I see your point - but my point has always been that 18 year olds should not be taking advantage of 14 year olds.


We try to draw black and white lines for kids who are all hanging out together, participating in the same activities together; lines which make one or both participants criminals. Life is far too messy for that - and maturity/power differentials are much more significant across the high school/middle school boundary - and across the college/high school boundary than they are within high school, even if the age difference within high school is greater.

We need to spend far more time talking with our kids about sex, and power, and the reality of the laws in our state (not just about sex, but about drinking, speeding, drugs, etc.), whether or not we agree with the laws so they can make good decisions about what is appropriate behavior (including taking into account emotional, practical, and legal consequences), and so that we have good open lines of communication that allow our children to talk to us if they do feel they are being taken advantage of.

If Kaitlyn's partner did feel pressured into activity she was not ready for, then some sort of sexual offense charges are appropriate - but they shouldn't be imposed merely based on plugging numbers into a chart. And, from everything I have seen, it is the girl's parents - not the girl - who are upset. Just because I don't like some of the activity my child has chosen to engage in shouldn't make it criminal on the part of her peers.

Not that I don't understand the protective parental reaction - probably far better than most in this discussion from first hand experience with a daughter whose judgment was impaired by unmonitored prescription medication, who - while under the influence of that drug - was engaging in online sexual activity with someone more than twice her age. I just don't believe that per se age based laws are the way to determine whether behavior was freely chosen by the younger partner.
 

davidn3600

(6,342 posts)
88. Let me ask you a question because Im very curious...
Wed May 22, 2013, 03:51 PM
May 2013

What if instead of a 14-year old daughter you had a 14-year old son, and you found out he had just had sex with an 18 year old girl that goes to his school?

Would you still call the cops? Or do these laws only apply to when the victim is female? Why does society consider the crime less severe when the victim is male?

I seriously dont think most parents would call the police if their 14 year old son was having sex with an 18 year old girl.

shawn703

(2,702 posts)
93. If my 14 year old son
Wed May 22, 2013, 04:38 PM
May 2013

Got the 18 year old girl pregnant, who would be financially responsible for the child? So yeah, I would be putting a stop to that scenario too.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
83. Are you sure of your facts? I believe you are in error.
Wed May 22, 2013, 02:34 PM
May 2013

I thought that "Romeo and Juliet" type laws MITIGATED the offense; they didn't take the offense away.

IOW, the 'perp' (the older one in the relationship) doesn't end up on a sex offender registry, but he or she isn't "innocent."

Which states say that relationships between fourteen year olds and eighteen years are not illegal? US states have ages of consent that range from sixteen to eighteen.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_North_America

Ms. Toad

(34,060 posts)
86. There is a difference between the age of consent -
Wed May 22, 2013, 03:39 PM
May 2013

and the age at which a older participant can be prosecuted for the sexual activity.

We have activities that are crimes based solely on the age of the person engaging in that activity. Sexual intercourse, running away, tobacco, and alcohol use are a few examples. They are activities for which a juvenile can be adjudicated delinquent regardless of whether there was any adult involved or not.

So - a younger participant can be adjudicated delinquent by reason of sexual activity (in the same way in many states she can be adjuducated delinquent by reason of running away - both "crimes" which are age based.) The age of consent does not have anything inherently to do with the age of the partner - it has to do with whether it is legal for someone of a particular age to have sex with anyone.

Beyond that, there is the additional question of who, if anyone, can be prosecuted for statutory rape or contributing to the delinquency of a minor. That is largely a separate question - the one at issue here.

Based on a summary (without pulling the collection of laws in each state), Kaitlyn could not be prosecuted in at least Arkansas, Missouri, New Mexico, Ohio, New Mexico, New Jersey, Maine, Iowa, Hawaii, DC, and Colorado - either because the age difference was not great enough, or because she was not old enough to be charged with this particular crime. (And Florida is actually on the list because if this was heterosexual intercourse, Kaitlyn could not be charged unless she was 24 - she is being charged not for rape but for a lesser offense under a slightly different statute. The laws really are a mish mash, with lots of variation which it is hard to capture in a single chart.)

As for prosecutions for one day apart, in California, Idaho, and Wisconsin the age of consent is one 18 and there is not age difference provision. So an 18 year old "adult" could be charged with rape of a 17 year and 364 day old "child" if they had sexual intercourse on the birthday of the 18 year old.

The interpretation of "Romeo and Juliet" statutes as keeping people off the sex registry but maintaining the conviction is a new one to me. I'm generally familiar with rape laws - so I know how age of consent and statutory rape laws generally work - but have not specifically spent much time reviewing state by state laws since sex offender registries became the rage, so that may well be another permutation, but it is not how they have traditionally worked for at least the 4 decades I've worked in issues of rape.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
91. In your summary, the victim in Florida has to be sixteen for the 24 y.o. thing to kick in.
Wed May 22, 2013, 04:19 PM
May 2013

The age of consent is eighteen, but a sixteen year old can have sex with someone 24 and under and the "exception" applies.

But this kid was fourteen, wasn't she? She was below the age at which, according to your chart, she was capable of offering consent.

I am not approaching this from the victim's "delinquency," I think it has more to do with the fact that children who are below the age of consent do not have the ability to offer consent. The perpetrator in those sorts of cases is guilty of a crime, but it's usually something along the lines of "contributing to the delinquency of a minor" or has that kind of flavor in terms of seriousness (misdemeanor instead of felony, with no sex offender registry record). Or maybe the offense will fall under the "lewd and lascivious" rubric discussed (scroll down a bit) on this message board: http://www.expertlaw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2652

That's usually how I've seen it play out, anyway.

I think the perpetrator is probably in a bit of legal jeopardy, unless she has a good lawyer who can persuade the victim's parents to back off. The sticking point is the age of the victim in this situation. If she were sixteen, it would be a different situation, even though the age of consent is eighteen in FL.

 

Bully Taw

(194 posts)
17. it is the law...
Tue May 21, 2013, 07:25 PM
May 2013

often unenforced, but it is the law. Gay or straight. There have been other instances of this law being prosecuted. We cannot choose when to enforce laws. Especially those that involve children. This woman is 18, the victim is 15. Statutory rape under the law.

We are kidding ourselves if we think this is not common, and we may not like it in this case or others, but it is indeed the law. these laws are put in place to protect children. its not really a gray area, is it?

ScreamingMeemie

(68,918 posts)
19. She is not being charged with statutory rape.
Tue May 21, 2013, 07:32 PM
May 2013

She is being charged with two counts of lewd and lascivious activity on a minor 12-16 years old. A felony.

 

Bully Taw

(194 posts)
26. as would i
Tue May 21, 2013, 07:44 PM
May 2013

but...what if the adult persists in the relationship? Wouldn't you do anything to protect your child?

ScreamingMeemie

(68,918 posts)
33. Please reread our discussion.
Tue May 21, 2013, 09:02 PM
May 2013

Here is how I would handle it when it involves two high school kids (no, she isn't an adult).

1-I don't like it that my son is seeing an 18 year old in his class or in his group of friends so I...

2-Tell him to stop. And if he doesn't stop I then...

3-Talk to the child and his/her parents...

I would then...if this does not end (and it rarely comes to this)

contact the school and then the police to issue a warning.

Sorry, but they're peers.

I'm not in the habit of ruining the future of a good student, etc.

I would also not demand that the school board expel her once a judge has put a restraining order in place and said she could return to school.

Sorry. But, I'd rather the courts prosecute actual adult criminals.

And that, as the facts state, is NOT what happened here.

 

Bully Taw

(194 posts)
41. you are absolving an adult
Tue May 21, 2013, 11:18 PM
May 2013

of the consequences of their choices.

her choice was to violate the law as it is written

an 18 yr old is a legal adult

You seem to be having trouble with understanding what a legal adult is.

you just don't like the facts of the case.

If this were an 18 yr old boy and a 15 yr old girl, this post would not be on the DU and the ACLU would be nowhere to be found. Because this is a same sex case, people are seeing this as an attack on a gay woman and ignoring the fact that this is against the law and there is a 15 (fifteen!) yr old girl involved here.

 

truebrit71

(20,805 posts)
44. I need to chime in here, just because the law makes an arbitrary decision on "adulthood"
Tue May 21, 2013, 11:52 PM
May 2013

..based on a birthdate, does not mean one goes to bed a starry-eyed 17 year old "child" and then wake up the morning of your 18th birth anniversary as a world-weary and savvy grown-up... I know plenty of 20-somethings that act like stupid teenagers, and more than a few very adult teenagers...

 

truebrit71

(20,805 posts)
76. Not in the slightest. I am suggesting that some intelligence is brought into the equation...
Wed May 22, 2013, 11:11 AM
May 2013

...rather than a "you're over 18 so you're fucked" scenario. This is also the problem with mandatory minimum sentences and 3-strikes laws...

rebecca_herman

(617 posts)
31. it's only going to get worse due to the redshirting trend
Tue May 21, 2013, 08:40 PM
May 2013

I already dislike the commonness of redshirting -holding back a year kids who were born early enough to have started kindergarten the previous year and have no delays or special needs just to give them an advantage - I think it creates an unfair age gap in the early years - but now I suppose there's yet another disadvantage at the other end - it's leading to a group of kids who are going to be legal adults their ENTIRE senior year. I've heard of kids being held back for no reason despite birthdays that are so early they are going to be *19* for several months of their senior year.

rebecca_herman

(617 posts)
40. and not even just the dating issue
Tue May 21, 2013, 11:11 PM
May 2013

The kid can refuse to go to school and what can the school do? the parents do? nothing?

rebecca_herman

(617 posts)
42. it's very much a socioeconomic thing where I live
Tue May 21, 2013, 11:43 PM
May 2013

I'm now even seeing women who are still pregnant contemplating redshirting their child based solely on a due date that they think isn't far enough ahead of the school cutoff. I just want to scream at them to see what their child is actually like, as an individual, before deciding. It's absurd.

Of course, I am the weirdo among them hoping to have a baby due before the cutoff and would rather my future child be on the younger side in school because I never felt challenged in school as a young child.

Yo_Mama

(8,303 posts)
13. Wrong law - it's a second or third degree felony depending on age of perp.
Tue May 21, 2013, 06:00 PM
May 2013

It's 800.04 Lewd or lascivious offenses committed upon or in the presence of persons less than 16 years of age.
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0800-0899/0800/Sections/0800.04.html

The age of consent is 16. However in Florida there's another provision - the one you cited - making sexual contact with a 16 or 17 year old a crime if the partner is over 23.

If the offender is under 18 and the sexual partner is under 16, any sexual touching is a third-degree felony. So this would have been criminal in Florida even if the sexual activity had occurred before the older girl's 18th birthday. It wasn't, because they weren't having sex then.

Yes, teens do have sex - sometimes a lot of sex - but in Florida it is not legal to do so until you turn 16. And a 16 year old may not legally have any sexual contact with a 14 year old.

I don't believe there is any lower age to prosecution. I just looked up the statutes, and it appears that if two 14 year-olds are having sex, it better not be in Florida. They both would be guilty of a third-degree felony, but of course any such charge would be handled by the juvenile justice system.

 

HockeyMom

(14,337 posts)
3. Double standards
Tue May 21, 2013, 04:49 PM
May 2013

Clearly, for these parents the issue is one of GAY Consensual Sex and they are using this loophole for prosecution. Same with a straight case a few years back of a recently turned 18 HS black male with a 15 year old HS white girl.

My daughter turned 18 in HS and dated a boy who was 15. Two and a half year age difference. HIS father made comments when she turned 18, but he almost BRAGGED that his son was dating an "older woman". MACHO for the father of a son.
Both myself and my daughter found that attitude very offensive. Double standards.

ScreamingMeemie

(68,918 posts)
6. Yep. Her parents feel that Kaitlyn "made" their daughter gay.
Tue May 21, 2013, 05:01 PM
May 2013

They have tried everything to get them to back down.

Including:

Moving out of the state and never returning.

 

RC

(25,592 posts)
14. Yeah, pray that Gay away.
Tue May 21, 2013, 06:24 PM
May 2013

Somehow that doesn't seem to work very well. When will people learn?

Horse with no Name

(33,956 posts)
77. What happened to that black kid was horrible
Wed May 22, 2013, 11:21 AM
May 2013

PRISON. The kid had a one-way ticket out of hell...full ride scholarship, etc.

I remember watching both of these kids on Oprah.

IIRC, when he got out of prison, Oprah helped him get his life back on track. Not the same track, but on the track nonetheless.

I also remember intensely disliking the girl that was obviously lying.

ScreamingMeemie

(68,918 posts)
82. I remember watching that Oprah show with tears in my eyes.
Wed May 22, 2013, 12:56 PM
May 2013

And I came away with the same opinions that you did. I'm glad he got his life back.

Loge23

(3,922 posts)
29. Yet another arrest.
Tue May 21, 2013, 08:10 PM
May 2013

The heartbreaking nature of this so-called crime is bad enough, but what is it with arresting everyone lately?
Getting arrested and serving time in this country - even one night - in jail is becoming as common as, well, high school romances.

Is everything illegal? Or are the laws becoming totally out of touch with mores?

This kid - by all accounts a model student - gets thrown out of school for what?? The basketball coaches prejudice?

Disgusting. Between the all-out push to charge and imprison virtually every citizen (except the rich of course) and the pronounced disparity in income and wealth in this country, one can only wonder when the goddamn dam bursts.


ScreamingMeemie

(68,918 posts)
35. I don't know...
Tue May 21, 2013, 09:18 PM
May 2013

But when you see people here on DU who think this bright student deserves to have her life taken from her for a high school romance, it's disturbing.

If we spent half as much time going after the real criminals, our children would be a lot safer.

It rips me to shreds that the DA let the charges drop on another student with the exact same case.

rebecca_herman

(617 posts)
43. Does it have to be all or nothing?
Tue May 21, 2013, 11:44 PM
May 2013

I don't support years in jail or a lifetime on the sex offender registry. I support the act itself (sex between a 14 and an 18 year old) being illegal because I think that parents of a young teenager should have some legal recourse in this kind of situation.

rebecca_herman

(617 posts)
47. It is what seems most reasonable to me
Wed May 22, 2013, 01:28 AM
May 2013

Now that I've thought about it for a little while, I think the most appropriate sentence in a case like this would be probation with the condition of obeying a no contact order.

 

davidn3600

(6,342 posts)
48. People want prisons to be the answer to everything
Wed May 22, 2013, 01:30 AM
May 2013

People talk about us being a police state, we may well be becoming one. But one thing that we already are is a prison state. We've got more people in prison per capita than any other country, even more than any dictatorship.

And the issue isn't that we have more crime than anyone else. We don't. The problem is that everyone keeps demanding more laws, longer and harsher sentences, zero tolerance, and three strike laws.

Just like the story a few weeks ago of the teen girl arrested because a science project went wrong...

I guess you better be careful. If you drop a few Mentos in a diet coke bottle, this stupid system might label you a terrorist.

LadyHawkAZ

(6,199 posts)
89. Revenue generator
Wed May 22, 2013, 03:59 PM
May 2013

I believe Florida has privatized prisons. Got to keep the $$$ rolling in somehow.

brett_jv

(1,245 posts)
52. Are we SURE we're not letting our support for Gay Rights get in the way of our judgement here?
Wed May 22, 2013, 04:34 AM
May 2013

I mean, if the 18 yo was a boy (or MAN, the second he turned 18, as some would say), would ANYone here be saying the same thing(s)?

Frankly, I tend to think ... not.

In fact, I suspect the opposite ... that many DU'ers would be complaining about the 'horrific rape culture' or some such, and demanding that such an evil, predatory monster be prosecuted to the full extent of the law for his reprehensible sexual predation upon an innocent, too-young-to-consent 14 year old BABY.

And no offense to my fellow guys, but if we're honest, a 14 yo girl is probably a lot closer to the same maturity as an 18 yo boy than they are an 18 yo girl .. And based on that, I think the case could be made that it's actually a 'worse' offense when Kaitlyn's a girl vs. if she were a guy ... and yet ... a guy would be condemned very strongly for doing this by most everyone, and most everyone seems to want to defend Kaitlyn.

So this is why I ask ... the question in my title above.

Personally, I don't have a huge problem with what happened here whether it was a girl, or a boy. I'm sure this will be controversial to say, but I think if 14 year olds are old enough to be tried and convicted as adults (which they most certainly have been in a number of states) when they commit a crime, then if we are to be consistent in terms of our 'logic', they should probably be considered 'old enough to consent' to sexual activity, esp. with a reasonably near-aged peer in a loving type of relationship, as was clearly the case here. Disclaimer: I say that because I despise seeing children tried as adults, not because I think the age of consent should be 14 years old And also, I'm just really not a fan of the way we seem to want to criminalize friggin' everything as the solution to our 'problems'.

However, as long as there's no evidence that Kaitlyn is being specifically targeted because she's gay, I don't really have a huge issue her paying some kind of consequences for this misbehavior. But ... I really don't think a felony charge and 'sex offender' registry is really very appropriate. This should be reserved for ACTUAL predatory behavior. Someone exhibiting a pattern of seducing youngsters, luring them into sex, and then dumping them. THAT is what punishment like that should be reserved for if you ask me.

As an aside, when I went to HS (80's) a sizable majority of the freshman (14-15 yo) girls were hot for the senior (17-18) guys, and that's because their maturity level is generally much more comparable than with couples of the same age. And there were TONS of 'couples' in this exact 'arrangement'. However, all the Seniors KNEW that they were playing w/fire if they kept it up with the minor girl once they turned 18. These laws are nothing new, and Kaitlyn unfortunately showed some pretty bad judgement in her actions. But I do understand ... the heart wants, what the heart wants. Esp. at that age.

 

HockeyMom

(14,337 posts)
58. Let's take this out of HS
Wed May 22, 2013, 09:02 AM
May 2013

I graduated HS at 17, got a full time job, my own apartment (alone), and was totally self-supporting almost a year before I turned 18. I remember at the time I was dating a 20 year old guy who I met at college taking night classes. So this would have been illegal too? For all purposes, other than getting a court document, I was an Emancipated Minor. My PARENTS could have prosecuted this guy? That would have been ludicrous. In my parents eyes I was now an adult on my own, even if technically I was still a Minor of 17.

Common sense on a case by case basis is what is needed.

ScreamingMeemie

(68,918 posts)
68. "Common sense on a case by case basis is what is needed." That is exactly what I posted
Wed May 22, 2013, 09:44 AM
May 2013

on the facebook page.

LisaL

(44,973 posts)
71. Common sense on a case by case basis?
Wed May 22, 2013, 09:51 AM
May 2013

How would that work, exactly? There is an age of consent, and it is illegal for an adult to have sexual relationship with someone below it. What is there not to understand?

ScreamingMeemie

(68,918 posts)
73. Have a nice day LisaL... as you read through this thread, you will see
Wed May 22, 2013, 09:52 AM
May 2013

I have made my position on high school and peer groups dating quite clear.


And I'll leave you with this rather eloquent post from the board:

" Legally they can destroy her life but morally why would they?"

Take care.

Ms. Toad

(34,060 posts)
90. Plenty - and apparently you are not clear, yourself, about the applicable laws
Wed May 22, 2013, 04:16 PM
May 2013

The age of consent has to do with the age at which a child can consent to have sex with anyone (regardless of whether her partner is another child or an adult). Below that age, any child engaging in sexual activity can generally be adjudicated a juvenile delinquent by reason of sexual activity.

In addition to the child being delinquent, an adult may be guilty of contributing to the delinquency of a minor or of statutory rape - but not always.

(I am using statutory rape as shorthand for any crime for which an older participant can be charged merely because sexual activity of some sort took place and the ages fit the statute.)

So there could be:
two minors both below the age of consent
two minors one below and one above but within the age range that makes it not rape
two minors one below and one above outside the age range that makes it not rape
a minor and an adult within the age range which makes it not rape
a minor and an adult outside the age range (or cutoff) at which it is not rape.

(Aand a few other variations I won't bother to list) The individuals who could be charged in each case are different

in the first, both could be adjudicated delinquent.
In the second, one could be adjudicated delinquent and the second charged with nothing
In the third, one could be adjudicated delinquent (statutes will vary on this) and the second charged either as an adult with statutory rape or contributing to the delinquency of a minor - or adjudicated a juvenile delinquent by reason of statutory rape.
In the fourth, the first could be adjudicated a delinquent and the adult not charged at all (or at most with contributing to the delinquency of a minor)
In the fifth, the adult could be charged with statutory rape

The laws on this matter are pretty complex - and much more suited to review on a case by case basis (within a peer group - like high school, with 18 year olds peers to 14 year olds, or college with 17 year olds peers to 21 year olds).

Statutory rape provisions (by whatever name) are intended to replace the force element in rape with a presumption that force occurred by virtue of the difference in power/age. That presumption does not work well across the board within peer groups - and really should be looked at on a case by case basis. If the 14 year old was in middle school, this would be a different question in my mind. If Kaitlyn had graduated and come back after being out on her own for a year, this would be a different question. These girls were in classes together, on varsity sports teams together, and in general acted as equals because that is how their school designed it. The law should take that into account by looking at the circumstances - just as it does in every other sexual offense crime in which it evaluates whether the activity was against the will of one of the participants.

 

HockeyMom

(14,337 posts)
95. Judges have discretion
Wed May 22, 2013, 05:11 PM
May 2013

Do you think a 17 year old HS student and an 18 year old HS student should be prosecuted? Or how about an 18 year old FEMALE HS student and a 15 year old MALE HS student. I lived through that having a DAUGHTER who dated a younger boy in HS. As I said, parents of MALE younger students would consider this bragging rights for their sons.

It cannot be STRICTLY legal because these laws were put on the books to protect Minors from OLDER ADULTS, not other HS students, from being charged by PARENTS with an bias against who their sons or daughters are dating in HIGH SCHOOL.

 

L0oniX

(31,493 posts)
78. ...and the mug shot .coms will enjoy the extra traffic from her picture and personal info ...forever
Wed May 22, 2013, 11:30 AM
May 2013

even if the charges are dropped.

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