General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region Forums1.4 MILLION per school? for shelters? Are they on the crack-pipe?
According to a report on Morning Joe, this is the expected additional cost for shelters at schools..
http://www.containeralliance.com/informative-articles/shipping-container-prices/used-shipping-container-prices-and-costs/
I would guess that ANY parent would be glad to sign a waiver if each school had several buried containers (some as little as $1500 each)
For a few precious minutes, surely they would be better off in one, than hugging a wall or cowering under a sink..
There might even be parents who would volunteer the use of equipment them may have access to, and their labor to dig a space for burying them..
interesting link about saving school kids.. nothing fancy..just life-saving.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/earth/killer-tornado-1928.html
BlueToTheBone
(3,747 posts)can't dig in the ground. The soil is kolachi clay and is so hard that is why most houses there have no basement. They build above ground "safe rooms" and they are more costly.
SoCalDem
(103,856 posts)If you NEED to and you WANT to, you CAN.
Or you can roll the dice.. and maybe end up with a smaller family
No one is going to LIVE in the damned containers/shelters. It may never even be used.
kentuck
(111,052 posts)and that would make them more cost worthy.
MrsMatt
(1,660 posts)They had an EF-4 tornado wipe out the school in 2010.
When they rebuilt, they put in a $1.2 million storm shelter (to withstand an EF-5), with a capacity of 500 more than the school enrollment. So it is open for the community as well.
indepat
(20,899 posts)in schools: such wouldn't be politically cost-effective.
BlueToTheBone
(3,747 posts)I had no electricity yesterday from the storms and didn't know the ad nauseum...Yeah! Something great about being without power. I used to live around there and the "hardpan" is really hard.
formercia
(18,479 posts)It was part of a 1930's era house in Western Oklahoma City. I was taking photo courses at the time.
Many old-timers used the shelters as a storage area for food, since the temperature was relatively stable. I was able to keep mine within a degree F. Once it came up to temperature, it took very little power to keep it at temp since the surrounding Earth acted as a thermal mass.
winter is coming
(11,785 posts)www.smilingdoglandscapes.com/articles/Soil%20&%20Caliche.pdf
So no, they're not on the crack pipe. I used to live in Austin, and they used dynamite to blast out holes for foundations, and that was just for houses built on a slab, not something with an actual basement. If you wanted to install a mailbox, you used a 6' crowbar to slowly dig out a hole, placed the mailbox pole, put the loose caleche around it, and added water. No cement necessary.
kentauros
(29,414 posts)and that would certainly make for an interesting soil problem:
Caliche is is nature's concrete. However, machines like this make short work of it and other (harder) trenching/digging situations:
BlueToTheBone
(3,747 posts)Thanks for pointing that out.
kentauros
(29,414 posts)Now, I'm hungry, too, and there aren't any bakeries here that make 'em like in central Texas
KansDem
(28,498 posts)But isn't that where the tar sands pipeline is going to go?
BlueToTheBone
(3,747 posts)can do what ever they please...no interference from the whole world seems to be able to stop them!
kentauros
(29,414 posts)and do a little weekend digging. And enterprising equipment renting company might figure out they could make such machines available though, with or without a trained operator.
However, those trenching and grinding machines can cut through damn near any soil type or geology. Getting a pipeline in the ground is what they're designed for.
wercal
(1,370 posts)Just about every leg of the pipeline is being built, except the Nebraska piece.
Some on this board have formed a narrative that there is some sort of force field in the state that prevents digging.
They used to do alot of mining in Oklahoma...
The gas stations in Oklahoma somehow have underground tanks...
You can dig in Oklahoma.
I designed a ALCO store in Shattuck, and we had to cut 15 feet of hillside away, to level it out. There was no problem doing this.
wercal
(1,370 posts)I'm a civil engineer...there is nothing radically difficult about building a basement in Oklahoma. In fact, 1 in 10 houses have one there.
Where there's a will, there's a way.
Examples of underground installations throughout Oklahoma include:
Basements in 10% of houses
Storage tanks at just about every stinking gas station
Thousands of miles of sanitary sewer pipe
Hundreds of miles of underground petroleum pipeline
Thousands of Septic tanks
galileoreloaded
(2,571 posts)it should be simple for you to quote PSF pricing for a basement with appropriate ADA and IBC requirements for a public school.
im thinking around $400-600 based on hard dig and/or water table mitigation but id love your input.
wercal
(1,370 posts)I did do a retail store in Shattuck, Ok once...cut away 15 feet of a hillside, and there was nothing particularly difficult about it.
Now in all reality, I think retrofitted shelters at the schools will be above ground. We did one at an elementary school, where we added two classrooms onto a wing of the school. They were made of concrete, with bulletproof windows. So, it was a 'twofer'...we added new space, but made it into a shelter that wouls squeeze in all the students at the school. But I'd say $400-$500 psf for the above ground is about right (this is a finished space).
And, if you had to go underground, I'd say it would be in the same price range, as an unfinished space. ADA...that I would have to research. Assuming that power would likely go out, I'm not sure the an elevator is really useful. There are chairs with stair crawling tracks on them, used to evacuate buildings in the event of an emergency. Keeping a few of these at the top of the stairs may suffice, since going down into the shelter is an emergency situation.
galileoreloaded
(2,571 posts)and over a million for a shelter is ABSOLUTELY reasonable considering then that NFPA rules for ingress/egress will apply as well.
my point is for the OP and others to understand that shit is expensive to do right, and putting our kids in buried septic tanks devoid of any engineering for habitable use is ignorant and dangerous; and decisions of that magnitude should be left to the adults.
wercal
(1,370 posts)I have absolutely considered a septic tank.
galileoreloaded
(2,571 posts)but i wouldn't shove your kids into one. all i am saying
wercal
(1,370 posts)Its just a precast concrete vault, buried in the ground - it should be very effective.
I think your objection to the OP is the idea of putting multiple small pods buried outside next to a school...and there are some problems with that, purely from the perspective that its hard to control small children and get them grouped up and running to the correct pod...and in general it would be better to have the shelter interior to the building, so nobody has to dash outside.
But every one of the photos in the OP looks like a viable shelter for home use.
I actually think the $1.2 million is on the high side...and the what we have added these things to schools is not purely as a shelter, but dual use, like adding a hardened classroom on to the end of a building. So, its just an additional expense when adding on to the school - not a stand alone expense with no benefit, unless a storm comes.
But even at $1.2 million, this is not an unsurmountable cost. These things can be bonded for 20 years, so the debt service would be something like $70k a year...not much more than the cost of one senior teaching position (not that they would actually have to lose a position, since the operating costs for schools are seperate from the capital costs, which are usually only paid by special mill levies, after a referendum election).
So, looking at the ballot meaure...Moore, Ok has 23 schools...and 40k people which is about 19k households. The total cost would be $27.6 million, with an annual debt service $1.61 million....or (assuming all houses in Moore had the same value) around $7 per month additional property taxes. I think most people would vote 'yes' on that ballot measure.
galileoreloaded
(2,571 posts)godai
(2,902 posts)They showed a family who had one of these...$3-5,000 was the stated price. It's concrete and steel.
kentauros
(29,414 posts)would be well-attached/anchored to underground (and maybe bell-bottomed) reinforced concrete footings. Otherwise it'll end up tossed around like that oil vessel shown in one image on top of another house. And we're talking about your "average" oil industry vessel often made of half- to one-inch thick plate steel. It was the size of a railcar, yet tossed around like everything else.
BlueToTheBone
(3,747 posts)Humans think they are so powerful and then are completely humbled by real power.
kentauros
(29,414 posts)I recall a railroad accident in the 1970s where propane rail cars were shooting into the air like rockets
BlueToTheBone
(3,747 posts)kentauros
(29,414 posts)Industrial accidents can be visually spectacular, or not, yet create large evacuations. In 1987, there was a hydrofluoric acid leak in Texas City. I remember seeing satellite images of it much later showing the path it took. All vegetation along that path was dead, including trees. If they'd had people "shelter in place", well, no one would have survived.
godai
(2,902 posts)Looked like there was a concrete base in the ground. Worked fine for the family that they interviewed.
For example:
kentauros
(29,414 posts)Maybe it's the manufacturer calling it "above ground", but I wouldn't classify it that way. It looks like at least half of it is meant to be below ground, which is good. The ground makes an excellent shelter if done right
Niceguy1
(2,467 posts)Nd whatever that is done must meet code and have sufficient capacity. The 1.4 million sounds aboutnright for an average sized school.
hlthe2b
(102,119 posts)I think it is the heavy walled concrete that makes the tornado shelters so expensive, as they appear to be built to withstand a nuclear blast (which, I guess, in terms of strength these EF5 tornadoes approach)....
Apparently the metal doors of cellars are vulnerable to being ripped off, so not sure about these shipping containers...
Since several kids drowned in the basement of the one school, that would be an issue as well.
kentauros
(29,414 posts)If it's built above ground, it's going to need heavy-duty anchoring, and that's cost-prohibitive to home-owners. Schools should be able to get any funding they like (whether that's always the case or not.)
And yes, the reinforced concrete shelters would likely survive a nuclear blast. If they're above ground, they have the added benefit of not being buried under debris, but can become a target for that same debris. I would hope there are better designers than us that understand how to create, build, and install shelters that take these factors into consideration
n2doc
(47,953 posts)First, its only money. And OK has plenty, if they wished to tax the oil producers and 1% a bit more. Second, the lawsuits alone will cost a school district far more, if they have a school without a shelter available, and it gets hit. I suspect insurance rates will be far higher for shelter-less schools, as well.
Niceguy1
(2,467 posts)Who can you sue , God??? The schools arent liable for the causualties.
formercia
(18,479 posts)$3-5000 added to the cost of a new home is not much for real protection and it will make do as a temporary shelter after the home is blown away.
n2doc
(47,953 posts)If they build a school in a known hazard area without a plan/safe area, and disaster happens, they will get sued, and lose.
Niceguy1
(2,467 posts)If not then sorry.
FSogol
(45,446 posts)Remember that price includes design, planning, construction, etc. Not just the cost of materials.
SoCalDem
(103,856 posts)wercal
(1,370 posts)We got a $100,000 grant from FEMA to harden some areas under bleachers and in locker rooms as a storm shelter.
We viewed it as a net gain to the budget, since these improvements did not cost the full hundred grand.
So $1.2 million seems very high.
We also added two classrooms to an elementary school wing, made of concrete. They were big enough to hold the whole school population. I don't remember the price tag; but, I'm sure it was well under a million.
galileoreloaded
(2,571 posts)not only have you demonstrated you don't have a grasp of basic civil engineering precepts even when thoroughly pointed out, but now you are demonstrating that you have no clue what things actually cost, and by default are suggesting that our schools disregard building code standards and standards of construction....
....to put our children in underground coffins that wont stay in the ground?
seriously, stop promoting this ignorance.
SoCalDem
(103,856 posts)galileoreloaded
(2,571 posts)soooooo.... laugh away. just keep your uninformed ideas away from my kids *shrug
taught_me_patience
(5,477 posts)This is a state issue and people of their own state should pay for it (especially when the state gives huge tax breaks to oil companies).
RedEarth
(7,477 posts)my house and have found the majority of them cost between $3,000-4,000 for a 4'x8' shelter. An above ground safe room costs nearly the same...however, some can go as high as $10,000...plus you have to have room for an above ground safe room...not feasible in my case. Not sure where you are coming up with the $1,500 figure, but I would like to contact them since that is substantially less than what I had been quoted.
As far as $1.4 for a school shelter or safe room, I'm not sure exactly what type of construction they are talking about or how large it would be. Most schools in the metro OKC area have a student count of 200 to 2,000 students, so obviously the cost per school will be dependent upon the size of the school.
SoCalDem
(103,856 posts)from the container resale people..for what would be a very rudimentary shelter
kelliekat44
(7,759 posts)Lady Freedom Returns
(14,120 posts)Two) Land one needs to make the shelters cost. Not all schools have that much land to begin with.
It sounds so easy, but it is not.
Even getting to the shelters in time (if they are outside shelters), may killed more people/kids. Tornados can be on the ground of a long or very,VERY short amount of time. There are times when the tornado forms so fast, right on top of the victim's, that there is no time.
And this is not even the start of the problems. This is something that seems simple, but when you start to really dig into it, it is far from simple.
FarCenter
(19,429 posts)To say nothing about the various fees, permits, legal paperwork, etc., etc.,