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(44,228 posts)
Thu May 23, 2013, 12:12 AM May 2013

The legacy of Andrew Wakefield continues


Actions have consequences. No matter how much the person might want to try to hide from the consequences of one’s actions, they frequently have a way of coming back, grabbing you by the neck, and letting you know they’re there. We see it happening now in the U.K.

Fifteen years ago, British doctor Andrew Wakefield published a case series in The Lancet in which he described gastrointestinal symptoms in 12 autistic children who were treated at the Royal Free Hospital. His conclusion was that he had identified associated gastrointestinal disease and developmental regression in a group of previously normal children that appeared to be associated with the MMR vaccine. The paper causes a sensation (a panic, actually), leading British parent to refuse to vaccinate their children with the MMR for fear that it was associated with autism. Meanwhile, with a “wink, wink, nudge, nudge,” charisma, and skill at self-promotion, Wakefield promoted the idea that the MMR vaccine causes autism. True, his Lancet paper didn’t exactly say that, whether through the enforcement of caution on its statements by the reviewers who accepted it or through plausible deniability is not clear, but Wakefield himself wasn’t so shy. Nor was the British tabloid press, with its notoriously insatiable appetite for scandal and sensationalism, which eagerly glommed onto the story and promoted it with nearly the same intensity that Wakefield did. Ultimately, MMR uptake rates plummeted and the measles, vanquished in the U.K. in the 1990s, came roaring back to endemic levels within a decade.

These are consequences that persist to today, as a recent story in the Washington Post tells us ( http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/years-after-scare-linked-measles-shot-to-autism-unprotected-uk-children-drive-measles-spread/2013/05/20/73f4ac2a-c134-11e2-9aa6-fc21ae807a8a_story.html ) , Measles outbreaks flourish in UK years after discredited research tied measles shot to autism:

More than a decade ago, British parents refused to give measles shots to at least a million children because of now discredited research that linked the vaccine to autism. Now, health officials are scrambling to catch up and stop a growing epidemic of the contagious disease.

This year, the U.K. has had more than 1,200 cases of measles, after a record number of nearly 2,000 cases last year. The country once recorded only several dozen cases every year. It now ranks second in Europe, behind only Romania.

Last month, emergency vaccination clinics were held every weekend in Wales, the epicenter of the outbreak. Immunization drives have also started elsewhere in the country, with officials aiming to reach 1 million children aged 10 to 16.

“This is the legacy of the Wakefield scare,” said Dr. David Elliman, spokesman for the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health, referring to a paper published in 1998 by Andrew Wakefield and colleagues that is widely rejected by scientists.

This is what anti-science, anti-vax, medical-woo brings us. Fuck them.

67 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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The legacy of Andrew Wakefield continues (Original Post) SidDithers May 2013 OP
I have a son with Asperger's. SheilaT May 2013 #1
Sounds like you've got a wonderful son... SidDithers May 2013 #2
Thank you. SheilaT May 2013 #5
Great post. nt MADem May 2013 #4
Thank you! I'm also the mother of an aspie liberalhistorian May 2013 #14
It seems as if one of the main problems for an Aspie is SheilaT May 2013 #26
Amen. My local austism society chapter invited this jerk to speak AFTER his license Butterbean May 2013 #17
Speaking of AofA... SidDithers May 2013 #20
Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeah. I noticed that after I posted. Butterbean May 2013 #27
I don't blame you... SidDithers May 2013 #28
Oy! Wakefield! longship May 2013 #3
Daytime kick...nt SidDithers May 2013 #6
big REC and KICK! n/t zappaman May 2013 #7
Info. proverbialwisdom May 2013 #8
Info. proverbialwisdom May 2013 #9
AOA Weekly Wrap: Gag Me proverbialwisdom May 2013 #10
Read for factual links only. proverbialwisdom May 2013 #11
I suspect this motivated Orac to revive the controversy. proverbialwisdom May 2013 #12
No. It was the news of 1200 cases of measles... SidDithers May 2013 #13
"Trifles make perfection (or science), but perfection is no trifle." - Michelangelo proverbialwisdom May 2013 #16
Fuck Age of Autism... SidDithers May 2013 #18
Ignore them, read their links to UK NHS data and reach your own conclusions. proverbialwisdom May 2013 #21
Kick Warren DeMontague May 2013 #15
Wakefield has his defenders... SidDithers May 2013 #19
Kick for the night shift! n/t zappaman May 2013 #22
I say this every time anti-vaxx woo is posted here. Archae May 2013 #23
When your kid is diagnosed with autism, you grasp onto any simple explanation Canuckistanian May 2013 #24
Uh, no, straw man fallacies beginning with the unflawed studies paragraph. nt proverbialwisdom May 2013 #25
We were exactly the same way with our autistic grandson... cynatnite May 2013 #60
''This is what anti-science, anti-vax, medical-woo brings us. Fuck them.'' Octafish May 2013 #29
Coming from the bizarro conspiracy world that you inhabit, octafish... SidDithers May 2013 #30
Smear away. You still haven't shown even once where I was wrong about the BFEE. Not even once. Octafish May 2013 #31
You smear yourself... SidDithers May 2013 #32
No. I didn't write that. Yet, you insist on associating me with something I did not write. Octafish May 2013 #34
You mean Naomi Wolf, right? geek tragedy May 2013 #35
Did you go to the thread? Octafish May 2013 #36
Ah, my mistake. geek tragedy May 2013 #37
Minnesota is still trying to undo the harm Wakefield did MineralMan May 2013 #33
I've read the stat that 1 in 8 children of Somali immigrants in Minnesota are diagnosed with autism. proverbialwisdom May 2013 #38
Have you now? And where did you read that? MineralMan May 2013 #40
KARE 11 TV Minneapolis: “1 in 8 kids in the local Somali community are affected” (VIDEO) proverbialwisdom May 2013 #53
This speaks for itself in correcting a few of the misrepresentations on this thread. proverbialwisdom May 2013 #39
Again, I do not accept your source. MineralMan May 2013 #41
AOA is an INTERMEDIARY between primary peer-reviewed material and the public vetted by SMART parents proverbialwisdom May 2013 #43
Kick for the fight against woo! n/t zappaman May 2013 #42
New study by Dr. Martha Herbert & Dr. Julie Buckley in Journal of Child Neurology on autism and diet proverbialwisdom May 2013 #44
You keep linking to Age of Autism... SidDithers May 2013 #45
Ok, here. proverbialwisdom May 2013 #51
I read around. proverbialwisdom Jun 2013 #66
Thanks for the kick...nt SidDithers Jun 2013 #67
Omigod. zappaman May 2013 #46
Herbert has been so thoroughly discredited that Godhumor May 2013 #47
Absolutely misleading, if true factoid, and the Journal of Child Neurology is peer-reviewed. proverbialwisdom May 2013 #48
"Nothing of value in terms of original work or trying to interpret results from other places," oh? proverbialwisdom May 2013 #49
LOL, sure AoA would be completely open to criticism Godhumor May 2013 #50
Great article and analysis. Comments to Scotsman article worthwhile. proverbialwisdom May 2013 #64
More. proverbialwisdom May 2013 #65
Wakefield lost his medical license for using kids as subjects with "callous disregard" Hekate May 2013 #52
In the '60s I knew a girl who'd had mumps encephalitis. She was blind and crippled. Hekate May 2013 #54
Exactly. These entirely preventable diseases can be very serious... SidDithers May 2013 #56
INFO, Hekate and Sid. Take it or leave it, your choice. proverbialwisdom May 2013 #57
C'mon. Give us a Generation Rescue link... SidDithers May 2013 #58
Check it out, please. Video features GR Executive Director Candace McDonald and her brother. proverbialwisdom May 2013 #62
Thanks for the kick... SidDithers May 2013 #63
I knew my daughter had some concerns about that schedule years before she had her first... Hekate May 2013 #59
Kick for the weekend crowd. n/t zappaman May 2013 #55
Test. I am unable to spot this thread in GD. proverbialwisdom May 2013 #61


(23,156 posts)
1. I have a son with Asperger's.
Thu May 23, 2013, 12:33 AM
May 2013

I can tell you that from the day he was born he was not like other babies. I didn't fully understand it, because he was my first child, and all of you who have children know that your first kid, unless very VERY noticeably different, just seems normal, just the kid you and the other parent happened to produce.

I want you to know that he was a wonderful baby. He never cried. Really. The extremely rare times he cried I was at a loss about how to handle it. Once, when he was maybe six months old, a friend stopped through on her way somewhere else, and in the morning when she woke up she marveled, "He hasn't cried once!"

His developmental milestones were completely normal. He walked, talked, did most things right when he should. But he was slow at learning to wave goodbye, and NEVER pointed at things. Those last two are absolutely classic Asperger's. But my son was born in 1982, so we didn't know about it yet.

He had the normal vaccinations at the normal times. He never had more than the mild, expected reactions to them. He was no different after a vaccination than before.

I get furious at people who try to blame my son's autism on vaccinations, or who swear that someone else's kid was just fine until the first MMR or whatever. I can tell you that it's easy to ignore, or overlook, or even be in denial about how your kid is different. And not just different in the way that we all are precious, unique human beings, but profoundly different.

Meanwhile, my son has grown up. He's thirty now, and has had his own successes and setbacks, as everyone has. Getting through college has been a huge challenge, even though he's incredibly smart. Recently he has returned to school to get his degree in physics.

I am fortunate, he is fortunate, that Asperger's is a relatively mild form of autism, and he does not have some of the worst parts of it. If you were to meet him you'd simply see a shy but very smart man who also happens to look a little different because he has alopecia areata, an auto-immune disorder that causes hair loss. He lost all of his hair when he was four years old. So he has spent his life looking and being different.

But whatever caused these things, it wasn't vaccines.


(44,228 posts)
2. Sounds like you've got a wonderful son...
Thu May 23, 2013, 12:38 AM
May 2013

I did my degree in physics 20 years ago (yikes!), and it's a tough course of study. I hope he does well with it.

Thanks for adding your personal touch to the thread.




(23,156 posts)
5. Thank you.
Thu May 23, 2013, 01:46 AM
May 2013

Like so many with Asperger's he's brilliant in science. Physics was his first love, his first college major. He flunked out of Reed College in Portland, OR, because the Asperger's got in the way of his ability to go to school. He came back to Kansas, attended the local junior college until he pulled his grades up (and along with the wonderful help of his high school college counselor) to be able to get into Kansas State University into their engineering program. After about a year and a half he flunked out again, essentially because of the Asperger's.

He eventually completed a CAD (Computer Aided Design) degree at our local junior college and was able to find a temp job in the field. They really liked him there. They tried very hard to make his position permanent, but alas, that didn't happen. So after that job ended and unable to find another CAD job, he went back to school. He's working on a physics degree. Last year I asked him to come visit me (I live in another state about 800 miles away) over his winter break. He couldn't. He'd gotten a phone call from the people at the CAD job, and they had work for him over the winter break. As sorry as I was not to see him, I knew how amazing that was.

When he was in high school he went to the astronomy camp at the University of Arizona. Great program, still exists. Anyway, the first year he was attending I had difficulty getting the head of the camp to respond to me when I left a voice mail. After my son attended, my calls were always returned. A year later on a spring break trip to Tucson I called that man and he not only returned my call but offered to give us (me and both my sons) a tour of the facility at the UofA campus. Did you know they make telescopes there? I didn't until then. Anyway, the astronomer gave us a wonderful tour, and at some point he used the word "genius" in referring to my son, and it was clear that wasn't a word he used lightly.

Later on, when I visited the Reed College campus, in an effort to keep my son from flunking out, the head of the physics department there made it clear that he really, really hoped son could stay. Or return.

My entire point here is that kids with Asperger's face challenges. They do not mature on the same timetable as the rest of us. Heck, I moved out and was fully self-supporting at the age of 17, which even back then was a bit unusual. My son, now age 30, is finally able to live on his own.

Even though I have fantasies of my son winning a Nobel Prize -- and I long ago told him that if that happens he must, at the ceremony, say "I owe this all to my wonderful mother" -- I do live in the reality-based world, and don't worry about such things very much.

The other thing I love about my son is that every single time I discuss anything vaguely connected to astronomy I learn something new. The most recent thing was that in the winter we are pointed away from the galactic center, and so the Milky Way is harder to locate, compared to the summer when we (meaning the planet) are pointed towards the galactic center. Don't know about anyone else, but that was new to me.


(20,805 posts)
14. Thank you! I'm also the mother of an aspie
Thu May 23, 2013, 04:51 PM
May 2013

son (now an adult), and I had the same experiences with him as you did with your son. He followed the same trajectory. I, too, knew there was something a bit different about him from the moment I brought him home. It's one of the many things that always made him so interesting, raising him was quite a unique experience. He's having issues getting through college now, but it's certainly not due to any intellectual difficulties (if anything, he's near-genius level in some areas), but more social, emotional and organizational issues.

I also get quite angry at the anti-vaccine idiots, both because I'm tired of having to hear their bullshit about how "that's why such a tragedy happened to your son" (um, no, I don't consider his being an aspie any kind of a tragedy at all, in fact, his original, creative way of thinking and his intellect will be quite a benefit to society, as was and is those who are similar), and their blithe dismissive unconcern over the effects of non-vaccination on other children and public health. I've given up trying to reason with them, however, there's simply no point. It's like trying to reason with birthers.



(23,156 posts)
26. It seems as if one of the main problems for an Aspie is
Thu May 23, 2013, 09:38 PM
May 2013

that they mature more slowly than others. Even though my son had been to many away camps and summer programs off somewhere, he wasn't able to handle the more adult responsibility of being at college at 18. He did not get involved in drinking or drugs or other things like that. In his case, when he ran into academic difficulties his social deficits made it impossible for him to seek help. It's exactly why he flunked out of two different colleges, despite being so smart.

About seven years ago my husband and I separated and are now divorced. He is remarried and he and my son's stepmother are very hands on and give my son lots of support and guidance. She was the one who actually suggested the CAD program, and she pushed him to applying for a job as a math tutor at a junior college, and then went with him to get into the physics program where he is now enrolled.

It's as if he's emotionally and socially far, far younger, but he has made great strides recently. I saw him a couple of weeks ago and it was noticeable to me how much more independent and capable he is that when I still lived in the same city, five years ago.

My point is, if your son has these difficulties, it's probably normal for him.


(1,014 posts)
17. Amen. My local austism society chapter invited this jerk to speak AFTER his license
Thu May 23, 2013, 06:04 PM
May 2013

was revoked. It created a firestorm within our local autism community, needless to say. The president of our local chapter is (and has always been) very much anti-vax, pro Age of Autism. Every president voted into our local chapter is that way, it's so frustrating. If you're not totally on the anti-vax side of things, you feel so unwelcome at any autism society meetings.

My son is moderately autistic, and mildly intellectually disabled. I noticed he was different when he was about 3 months old. Vaccines didn't "cause" a damned thing in him, he was born as he is. My husband's dna + my dna = my son. Period.

Wakefield and Jenny McCarthy make me want to spit fire.


(1,014 posts)
27. Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeah. I noticed that after I posted.
Fri May 24, 2013, 07:00 AM
May 2013

I have seen that poster on other autism threads before with similar responses. I just choose not to engage. Sigh. It's less exhausting.


(44,228 posts)
28. I don't blame you...
Fri May 24, 2013, 07:39 AM
May 2013

I'm a bit amazed that there's such a vigorous Wakefied defender right here at DU.



(40,416 posts)
3. Oy! Wakefield!
Thu May 23, 2013, 12:46 AM
May 2013

Wakefield was struck off the roles in the UK for unethical methods in that study, too numerous to list. He also stood to gain financially from it because, had the trivalent MMR vaccine been withdrawn his patent on a single measles vaccine would have paid off big.

All this was exposed, the Lancet withdrew the paper, and he lost his license to practice medicine in the UK.

So now he's here, spewing his anti-vaccine rubbish with the likes of Jenny McCarthy and other anti-vaccine kooks.

Makes me both sad and angry that he even has an audience.

Thanks, Sid.


(4,959 posts)
8. Info.
Thu May 23, 2013, 03:59 PM
May 2013

March 31, 2011 11:32 AM
By Sharyl Attkisson

...The article in the Journal of Immunotoxicology is entitled "Theoretical aspects of autism: Causes--A review." The author is Helen Ratajczak, surprisingly herself a former senior scientist at a pharmaceutical firm. Ratajczak did what nobody else apparently has bothered to do: she reviewed the body of published science since autism was first described in 1943. Not just one theory suggested by research such as the role of MMR shots, or the mercury preservative thimerosal; but all of them.

Ratajczak's article states, in part, that "Documented causes of autism include genetic mutations and/or deletions, viral infections, and encephalitis [brain damage] following vaccination. Therefore, autism is the result of genetic defects and/or inflammation of the brain."

And for those individuals happy with the condition, it's simply neurodiversity.


(4,959 posts)
10. AOA Weekly Wrap: Gag Me
Thu May 23, 2013, 04:14 PM
May 2013

Weekly Wrap: Gag Me

By Dan Olmsted

There's a moment in the 1950 movie Born Yesterday where the malaprop-prone Judy Holliday says, "This country and its institutions belong to the people who inhibit it." I'm starting to think Judy got that exactly right.

It's hard to conclude otherwise after this week's Columbia Journalism Review piece that singled out me and AOA (flattered, to tell you the truth), and said we were mangy dogs, all right, but that even balanced coverage of the vaccine-autism debate is, effectively, killing babies. It reminds me of the time after 9/11. If you criticized the invasion of Iraq, the terrorists win. If you didn't go shopping, the terrorists win.

Why not just root for the terrorists since about anything you did or didn't do would help them win? It's more straightforward that way.

Nowadays, if you echo, let's say, Darrell Issa or Elijah Cummings or the late great Bernadine Healy, not to mention Andy Wakefield, and ask questions about vaccines and autism or even, apparently, quote those people disapprovingly, the babykillers win. Perhaps the most exotic babykiller allegation I came across was the idea that Susan Dominus's whack job on Andy Wakefield in The New York Times shouldn't have been published either -- even viciously anti-anti-vaccine attack pieces kill babies by continuing to bring up the subject.

Seriously, they do! Paul Raeburn said so on the Knight Journalism at MIT blog in 2011:

"So why would the Times do this story now?

"Here's why not to do it: I believe that this story will prompt more parents to refuse to vaccinate their children. Some of those children will suffer or die from illnesses that the vaccines would have prevented.

"Stories have consequences, and it's often difficult to predict what those might be. I could be wrong about this. But I would have stayed far, far away from this story."

So, even if you write a story attacking Andy Wakefield, children will suffer or die. Actually, I kind of like the ultimate extension of this logic. Since doing anything at all on this topic will cause children to suffer and die, I'm just going to keep on defending Andy Wakefield as a good man who did good science. I'm going to keep saying that vaccines triggered the autism epidemic.

What difference does it make?

Speaking of which, next Saturday at Autism One, we're unveiling a new nine-minute video, How Mercury Triggered the Age of Autism, that we very much hope will go as viral as a cat in a teacup or Kony 2012. Please, see it, share it, and let's stop the autism epidemic that thimerosal, the MMR, too many vaccines too soon and God knows what other insanities inside the CDC immunization schedule are causing.

There, I said it. Because if we don't, babies will suffer or die.


Dan Olmsted is Editor of Age of Autism.
Posted by Age of Autism at May 18, 2013 at 5:50 AM


(4,959 posts)
12. I suspect this motivated Orac to revive the controversy.
Thu May 23, 2013, 04:36 PM
May 2013

Texas High Court Hears Wakefield Appeal

Yesterday, the three judges of the Texas High Court heard the appeal over jurisdiction in the case of Andrew Wakefield against the British Medical Journal and journalist Brian Deer. The case was presented by attorney Brendan K McBride, which was felt to be well-conducted. It will now be between 1 and 6 months before the judges return their verdict.

Posted by Age of Autism at May 23, 2013 at 5:43 AM


Andy Wakefield's Day in Court Coming This Month

Editor's Note: The judge has set May 22 for an appeal in Austin, Texas of the jurisdiction issue in Dr. Andy Wakefield's defamation suit against the British Medical Journal, Editor Fiona Godlee and "journalist" Brian Deer. The case was dismissed by a judge who said Wakefield was not entitled to sue the British publication in Texas, but Wakefield appealed. Supporters of Dr. Wakefield will be in attendance.

See here for the latest filings, and stay tuned for updates. -- Dan Olmsted

Posted by Age of Autism at May 09, 2013 at 5:46 AM in Dr. Andrew Wakefield | Permalink | Comments (41)


(44,228 posts)
13. No. It was the news of 1200 cases of measles...
Thu May 23, 2013, 04:41 PM
May 2013

in the UK, which are a direct result of Wakefield's fraud.



(4,959 posts)
16. "Trifles make perfection (or science), but perfection is no trifle." - Michelangelo
Thu May 23, 2013, 05:58 PM
May 2013


It's extremely difficult to cut through all the official mininformation, scaremongering and sheer MMR vaccine promoting propaganda, concerning the Welsh measles outbreak.

The ONLY reliable statistics are the laboratory confirmed numbers. These amount to a total of 26 confirmed cases since the start of 2013, for the whole of Wales, including 8 confirmed cases in March 2013.

The confirmed numbers of measles cases for April 2013 are still being compiled, but the UK media seem to have gone quiet during the last few days, since Child Health Safety raised the issue of what seems to be a totally manufactured Welsh measles "epidemic", created out of a small local outbreak. Scroll down alphabetically through large numbers of notifiable diseases to find the measles stats.


The large numbers of Welsh measles reported in the press and media, were all cases notified via GPs as suspected measles cases. Those 85 reported hospitalised cases obviously refer to persons who are mostly ill with other conditions. All this whipped up media frenzy has resulted in what seems to be a lot of mass hysteria cases!

The following link is to Welsh suspected measles cases which were notified November 2012- end of April 2013.

Scroll down to the block graph and you will find the largest 'spike' to be children aged 1-4, a cohort group officially stated to be 90-95% MMR vaccinated. All this rubbish about large numbers of 'teenagers' catching measles as a result of not being vaccinated as infants, is complete rubbish, an obvious attempt to blame Andrew Wakefield yet again!

(Total of 1011 notified measles cases up to 29-04-13)

Finally that good old Government and corporate propaganda machine the BBC produced this News Story 4 days ago:-

2nd May 2013
Swansea measles: Cases in epidemic rise to 1,039
"The number of cases in the Swansea measles epidemic has risen to 1,039, an increase of 28 in the past two days.
Public Health Wales (PHW) said across Wales the total has reached 1,170, and 85 people have been hospitalised.
It said that 33,000 non-routine MMR vaccinations have been given around the country during the outbreak.
But it said that too few 10-18-year-olds were receiving the jab, and they were the hardest hit by the epidemic.
Large numbers of children in that age group were never given the MMR vaccine, the result of a scare that caused panic among parents."

Posted by: Jenny Allan | May 06, 2013 at 08:10 PM


(4,959 posts)
21. Ignore them, read their links to UK NHS data and reach your own conclusions.
Thu May 23, 2013, 07:12 PM
May 2013

You're in good company until YOU decide you're not. That may be never. Meanwhile, read widely.

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
15. Kick
Thu May 23, 2013, 05:29 PM
May 2013

Thanks, Sid.

Fuck those people. They should be ashamed of themselves, (but you know, they're not) unapologetically keeping up their anti-science blather in light of all the unnecessarily sick kids they're responsible for.


(46,197 posts)
23. I say this every time anti-vaxx woo is posted here.
Thu May 23, 2013, 07:45 PM
May 2013

I know a family, parents were vaccinated.

All 5 kids were vaccinated.

All 7 grandchildren were vaccinated.

All 7 great-grandchildren were vaccinated.

Not one is autistic.

This family?


I am one of the 5 kids.


(42,290 posts)
24. When your kid is diagnosed with autism, you grasp onto any simple explanation
Thu May 23, 2013, 08:41 PM
May 2013

My son is 16 and when he was diagnosed at about 6 or 7, we were EXTREMELY interested in this MMR theory.

But as soon as the other studies started coming in showing NO correlation, we accepted it right away. Then other studies, I can't even remember how many basically DESTROYING Wakefield's conclusions.

And yet there are "true believers" in our Autism group who are STILL rabid anti-vaxxers, who claim vaccination is the biggest threat to human life and a massive scam.

God, I hate when pseudoscience is accepted so unquestioningly.


(31,011 posts)
60. We were exactly the same way with our autistic grandson...
Sat May 25, 2013, 03:40 PM
May 2013

We believed there was a connection, but it seemed like it quickly became apparent that vaccines played no role. I do hate that some parents will refuse to vaccinate their children based on pseudoscience or even religious reasons. It puts other kids at risk along with theirs.


(55,745 posts)
29. ''This is what anti-science, anti-vax, medical-woo brings us. Fuck them.''
Fri May 24, 2013, 07:58 AM
May 2013

Yours is not a very scientific attitude.


(44,228 posts)
30. Coming from the bizarro conspiracy world that you inhabit, octafish...
Fri May 24, 2013, 08:14 AM
May 2013

Your opinion on science is taken with a big grain of salt.

You're not here to defend Andrew Wakefield, are you? Maybe you'll publish your next manifesto on the topic of how the BFEE railroaded Wakefield. Or maybe the BFEE was behind him the whole time.

I dunno, but I'm sure the BFEE, an maybe Lee Harvey Oswald, somehow play a part in it.



(55,745 posts)
31. Smear away. You still haven't shown even once where I was wrong about the BFEE. Not even once.
Fri May 24, 2013, 08:36 AM
May 2013

As for science: I keep an open mind. That way, when I learn something new, I change it.

You? You already know everything. Even enough to smear me, Robert F. Kennedy, Jr., or Naomi Klein, and everyone who disagrees with your position.

PS: See. I showed you for what you are without having to resort to labeling. That's not just science -- that's democratic.


(44,228 posts)
32. You smear yourself...
Fri May 24, 2013, 08:54 AM
May 2013

With each new conspiracy story you spin.

Now you've jumped on the anti-vax crazy train. Colour me shocked.



(55,745 posts)
34. No. I didn't write that. Yet, you insist on associating me with something I did not write.
Fri May 24, 2013, 09:16 AM
May 2013

That is a smear. And it doesn't change the fact that you have yet to find anything wrong with what I have written about the BFEE.

Something else I want readers to know: In all the posts I've made on the subject of the BFEE, while you have attempted to smear me with labels like "conspiracy theorist," "woo," or whatever term you can find, you never find fault with the BFEE, SidDithers.


geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
35. You mean Naomi Wolf, right?
Fri May 24, 2013, 09:24 AM
May 2013

Naomi Klein is a very insightful author on the depravity of global capitalism.

Naomi Wolf is an ignorant consiracy woo nutter.


(55,745 posts)
36. Did you go to the thread?
Fri May 24, 2013, 09:31 AM
May 2013

If you had, you'd see SidDithers' response was in answer to a post about Naomi Klein.


(146,060 posts)
33. Minnesota is still trying to undo the harm Wakefield did
Fri May 24, 2013, 09:06 AM
May 2013

in the Somali community in the Twin Cities. He has come here twice, that I know of, and spoken directly to gatherings of Somali immigrants, urging them to forgo the MMR vaccine. He told them it caused autism. The Somali community listened, and measles was the result, killing at least one child.

It's not that he's just wrong. He is actively causing harm in a community of immigrants, and that harm has been difficult to eradicate.



(146,060 posts)
40. Have you now? And where did you read that?
Fri May 24, 2013, 02:27 PM
May 2013

I see that your only links are to the advocacy website, ageofautism.com.

So, show me a link that says that 1 in 8 figure from a neutral source, won't you. I do not rely on advocacy websites for any sort of factual information.

Thanks in advance.


(4,959 posts)
53. KARE 11 TV Minneapolis: “1 in 8 kids in the local Somali community are affected” (VIDEO)
Sat May 25, 2013, 02:18 AM
May 2013
VIDEO: http://www.kare11.com/news/article/984700/391/Autism-program-expands-to-meet-growing-need-in-West-Metro


KARE 11 TV Minneapolis: “1 in 8 kids in the local Somali community are affected” (VIDEO)

Jul 26, 2012


Nov 24, 2008 David Kirby wrote about the pandemic of autism among the Somalis in Minneapolis. HERE

“On Saturday, November 15, I attended a daylong forum in Minneapolis on autism in the Somali immigrant community there, where the rate of autism among Somali children in the public schools had been reported at 1 in 28 kids.”

Now, four years later, this current story from KARE 11 gives us even more jaw-dropping numbers.

Autism program expands to meet growing need in West Metro
HERE: http://www.kare11.com/news/article/984700/391/Autism-program-expands-to-meet-growing-need-in-West-Metro

“The Centers for Disease Control says 1 in 88 children nationally now have autism, and St. David’s staff says more concerning, state research shows around 1 in 8 kids in the local Somali community are affected.”

These are numbing statistics. Even if the Somali tragedy weren’t a part of this piece, IT’S CLEAR THAT ASD KIDS KEEP ON COMING AND COMING.

“an incredible need in Minnesota”
“get their sensory needs met”
“currently kids age out of this program before they get to the top of the waiting list”

The news anchor asks why the rate is so high among the Somalis. The reporter tells him researchers are “mystified.” Too bad he isn’t interested in why ANY OF THESE KIDS HAVE AUTISM.

My comment:

Notice that when we talk about autism, we’re always talking about children with autism. No one has ever found a comparable rate among adults. That simple fact should be scaring us all. Something is dramatically affecting the health of our children everywhere and no official can tell us why. One in 88. One in 8. These numbers are proof of a health care disaster happening all around us.

Dr. Thomas Insel, head of the Interagency Autism Coordinating Committee set up by Congress to deal with autism warned us, speaking at NIH in 2010, “If you look at those numbers, the increase and recognize how many of those kids will become adults, we …also need to be thinking about how we prepare the nation for a million people who may need significant amounts of services as they are no longer cared for by their parents or as their parents are no longer around.”

This crisis will only continue to grow. It’s time we earnestly and honestly addressed what’s happening to our children.
Anne Dachel, Media editor: Age of Autism

I 'm so sorry.


(4,959 posts)
39. This speaks for itself in correcting a few of the misrepresentations on this thread.
Fri May 24, 2013, 02:11 PM
May 2013

Brandeis Hoot Letters to the Editor: On Dr. Wakefield

By Jake Crosby
April 29, 2011

Section: Editorials

To the Editor:

While The Hoot’s article covering Dr. Andrew Wakefield’s April 13 lecture at Brandeis presented both sides, the accompanying editorial titled, “Don’t let Wakefield go unchallenged,” was completely biased and provided no support for its claims that Wakefield’s work has been “discredited” and contains “errors and flaws,” or that he “committed great harm through his research, which is filled with fraud and unethical conduct far more than it is with facts.”

In truth, Dr. Wakefield’s greatest harm is to the bottom line of the pharmaceutical companies when he points out serious risks in the vaccine schedule. One such example is the recommendation to delay the Diphtheria-Tetanus-Pertussis vaccine by a mere two months, which has been shown to halve the risk of developing asthma according to a 2008 Canadian study from the University of Manitoba, as cited by Dr. Wakefield in his lecture.

The Hoot editorial also stated that Dr. Wakefield should have debated a Brandeis health policy or science professor. That’s exactly what I’d intended but those who were invited to debate him declined.

A January op-ed in The New York Times written by my former professor, Michael Willrich, criticized Dr. Wakefield. Yet neither Professor Willrich nor anyone from the social or natural science departments who opposes Dr. Wakefield and who was approached with the idea of debating him was willing to do so.

In The Hoot’s article, Dr. Steven Miles—a gerontologist who said Dr. Wakefield “scared” Minnesota’s Somali community—neglected to mention that autism affects a whopping one in 28 Somali children in Minnesota and that Dr. Wakefield was actually invited to speak by the Somali community.

The Somalis had plenty to fear from autism before they were visited by Dr. Wakefield, who advocated an initiative to study why the condition affects their population so profoundly. This is something the state health department and Steven Miles—who was quoted as calling Minnesota’s Somali community “unsophisticated and desperate”—are not publicly supporting.

Parents at the event who came from off-campus—many of whose children had been as sick as the children in Dr. Wakefield’s presentation—were represented as an “angry group” who had “gobbled up” “atrocious science and statistical fudging” in graduate student Zach Feiger’s statement to The Hoot. Yet he did not question the science or the statistics at the question and answer session. Isn’t it “atrocious science” to continue giving every infant the Hep B shot on the first day of life, which is associated with a three-fold greater prevalence of autism in boys according to a SUNY Stony Brook study cited in Dr. Wakefield’s presentation?

That there are people who would not debate Dr. Wakefield, ask him questions or even hear what he has to say is their own responsibility—not that of the speaker, the organizer or anyone else in attendance that night.

I am proud that Dr. Andrew Wakefield had this opportunity to address the allegations against him as well as the science of autism and vaccine risks. He spoke to a diverse audience of students, faculty, staff, parents of children with autism, scientists, a pediatrician and professionals in the field of autism.

—Jake Crosby ’11

Jake Crosby organized Dr. Andrew Wakefield’s Brandeis lecture and is a contributing editor to ageofautism.com.

Posted by Age of Autism at May 01, 2011 at 5:34 AM in Jake Crosby | Permalink | Comments (32)


(146,060 posts)
41. Again, I do not accept your source.
Fri May 24, 2013, 02:29 PM
May 2013

It is an advocacy website with a bias. Unless you can report information from some neutral source that has been peer-reviewed, I fear I will not be able to accept your information as accurate.

If you cannot produce useful information directly from a neutral source, I will have to ignore all of your posts as biased.


(4,959 posts)
43. AOA is an INTERMEDIARY between primary peer-reviewed material and the public vetted by SMART parents
Fri May 24, 2013, 04:20 PM
May 2013

- among other things and it's highly diverse. The place is permeable, you can contact the site's authors and request the journal specific material or otherwise converse. I invite you to dig into AOA and attempt to debunk specific claims rather than reflexively reject the site. I think you owe it to yourself to get these issues right, especially if it's your work.

Your cavalier dismissal strikes me as being more defensive than anything else, but it's sadly the norm among health professionals by virtue of their training UNLESS personally affected. Certainly the physicians in my family rabidly share your assessment, although there is no valid justification for refusal to give the slightest consideration to these ahead-of-the-curve and highly informed parents, eg. MN resident, Somali immigrant, autism parent and AOA Contributor Abdulkadir Khalif. Read: http://www.ageofautism.com/abdulkadir-khalif/

In the Jake Crosby post you claim to have rejected without reading, TWO peer-reviewed studies are cited referring to TIMING, not outright elimination. Besides timing, it is my understanding that specific versions of individual vaccines, including those previously subjected to recall, are the issue.

BTW, the sibling generation of all these children will sort things out, I am certain, although sooner would be better, naturally. Current trends or even the status quo are unsustainable.


(4,959 posts)
44. New study by Dr. Martha Herbert & Dr. Julie Buckley in Journal of Child Neurology on autism and diet
Fri May 24, 2013, 04:52 PM
May 2013

Last edited Wed Sep 18, 2013, 10:03 PM - Edit history (2)


New Study by Dr. Martha Herbert & Dr. Julie Buckley in Journal of Child Neurology on Autism and Dietary Therapy

Managing Editor's Note: Thank you to Dr. Martha Herbert and Dr. Julie Buckley.

Of special significance is that we have an academic researcher working in conjunction/cooperation with a practicing physician in order to publish academically rigorous case studies that may have an immediate impact on patients. Sure beats another eye gaze study in Amazonian water rats, eh?

Journal of Child Neurology

Autism and Dietary Therapy
Case Report and Review of the Literature

Martha R. Herbert, PhD, MD -1
Julie A. Buckley, MD, FAAP -2

1Pediatric Neurology and TRANSCEND Research, Massachusetts General Hospital, Boston, MA, USA
2Pediatric Partners of Ponte Vedra, Ponte Vedra Beach, Florida; Nova Southeastern University, Fort Lauderdale, FL, USA

Martha R. Herbert, PhD, MD, Pediatric Neurology, TRANSCEND Research, Massachusetts General Hospital, Boston, MA 02129, USA. Email: marthaherbertmd@gmail.com

Author Contributions MRH and JAB contributed equally to this work.


We report the history of a child with autism and epilepsy who, after limited response to other interventions following her regression into autism, was placed on a gluten-free, casein-free diet, after which she showed marked improvement in autistic and medical symptoms.

Subsequently, following pubertal onset of seizures and after failing to achieve full seizure control pharmacologically she was advanced to a ketogenic diet that was customized to continue the gluten-free, casein-free regimen. On this diet, while still continuing on anticonvulsants, she showed significant improvement in seizure activity. This gluten-free casein-free ketogenic diet used medium-chain triglycerides rather than butter and cream as its primary source of fat. Medium-chain triglycerides are known to be highly ketogenic, and this allowed the use of a lower ratio (1.5:1) leaving more calories available for consumption of vegetables with their associated health benefits. Secondary benefits included resolution of morbid obesity and improvement of cognitive and behavioral features.

Over the course of several years following her initial diagnosis, the child’s Childhood Autism Rating Scale score decreased from 49 to 17, representing a change from severe autism to nonautistic, and her intelligence quotient increased 70 points. The initial electroencephalogram after seizure onset showed lengthy 3 Hz spike-wave activity; 14 months after the initiation of the diet the child was essentially seizure free and the electroencephalogram showed only occasional 1-1.5 second spike-wave activity without clinical accompaniments. (see the pdf of the abtract HERE: http://www.rescuepost.com/files/j-child-neurol-2013-herbert-and-buckley-0883073813488668-1.pdf )

Posted by Age of Autism at May 24, 2013 at 5:46 AM in Science

On Wakefield, academic/clinical pediatric gastroenterologist, withdrawn/recalled mmr formulation (1990s in Canada, UK, Japan):


(4,959 posts)
51. Ok, here.
Fri May 24, 2013, 09:47 PM
May 2013
Journal of Child Neurology

Autism and Dietary Therapy : Case Report and Review of the Literature
Martha R. Herbert and Julie A. Buckley

J Child Neurol published online 10 May 2013 DOI: 10.1177/0883073813488668

The online version of this article can be found at: http://jcn.sagepub.com/content/early/2013/05/09/0883073813488668


(6,437 posts)
47. Herbert has been so thoroughly discredited that
Fri May 24, 2013, 05:58 PM
May 2013

A court denied her standing as an expert on autism.

AoA had nothing of value in terms of original work or trying to interpret results from other places.


(4,959 posts)
48. Absolutely misleading, if true factoid, and the Journal of Child Neurology is peer-reviewed.
Fri May 24, 2013, 06:14 PM
May 2013


The Journal of Child Neurology

The Journal of Child Neurology (JCN) embraces peer-reviewed clinical and investigative studies from a wide-variety of neuroscience disciplines. Focusing on the needs of neurologic patients from birth to age 18 years, JCN covers topics ranging from assessment of new and changing therapies and procedures; diagnosis, evaluation, and management of neurologic, neuropsychiatric, and neurodevelopmental disorders; and pathophysiology of central nervous system diseases.

Impact Factor: 1.748
Ranked: 43 out of 115 in Pediatrics and 115 out of 192 in Clinical Neurology
Source: 2011 Journal Citation Reports® (Thomson Reuters, 2012)

(Forthcoming articles published ahead of print)
Current Issue: June 2013
All Issues
January 1986 - June 2013
Special issue: Acquired Demyelinating and Other Autoimmune Disorders of the Central Nervous System in Children
For an alternate route to Journal of Child Neurology Online use this URL: http://intl-jcn.sagepub.com [More Information]


(4,959 posts)
49. "Nothing of value in terms of original work or trying to interpret results from other places," oh?
Fri May 24, 2013, 06:54 PM
May 2013

Overview article from 2009 here asserting flawed research used to claim the “science has spoken.” (Disclaimer: Not my field. I have not personally studied this material. OTOH, I fully respect the vested self-interest, good intentions and integrity of AOA community).


Fourteen Studies? Only if you never read them.

By J.B. Handley

Of all the remarkable frauds that will one day surround the autism epidemic, perhaps one of the most galling is the simple statement that the “science has spoken”... Anytime a public health official or other talking head states this, you can be assured that one of two things is true: they have never read the studies they are talking about, or they are lying through their teeth.


These comments were driving me nuts. I’d read a majority of the studies they were referring to, I knew how bad they were, and I also knew that most journalists couldn’t even find the studies being referred to, because most weren’t even on the web!!

Several hundred hours of work later, Generation Rescue is pleased to introduce a website with a very simple purpose: to tell the truth. You will find every study in its entirety and a whole lot more right here:


Please take a spin, send to friends, and feel free to comment. Anyone who considers themselves to be an honest, objective scientist should be embarrassed for their colleagues who have manufactured this “proof” over the last 10 years.


J.B. Handley is co-founder of Generation Rescue.
Posted by Age of Autism at April 09, 2009 at 5:50 AM in JB Handley, Vaccine Safety | Permalink | Comments (38)



(6,437 posts)
50. LOL, sure AoA would be completely open to criticism
Fri May 24, 2013, 07:28 PM
May 2013

After all, they have acknowledged there is no scientific link between autism and vaccines, as has been down countless times, right?

Let us try on a local level since you read a lot of AoA. If you flat out say, and mean it, that you know vaccines have nothing to do with autism, that the safe vaccine movement is wrong and that you only read AoA for the community of people going through the same things I will read anything you link to them and give real feedback instead of the snark AoA deserves.


(4,959 posts)
64. Great article and analysis. Comments to Scotsman article worthwhile.
Tue May 28, 2013, 09:58 PM
May 2013
The publicity surrounding the MMR vaccine, which many believed caused autism, has only served to confuse matters, she says.

“The whole thing has been held back by this crazy vaccine controversy which made everybody afraid. Let’s just let it go and look at the kids. They need medical help."




(4,959 posts)
65. More.
Wed May 29, 2013, 01:23 PM
May 2013


I like the spirit of the article coming out of an interview with me in the Scotsman. I was misquoted about five times but not maliciously. For example, i did not say that calcium channels are the primary cause of autism. Instead, i used it as an example of a phenomenon that can be caused either genetically or environmentally, where the impact is due to the physiological dysfunction, and where that physiological impact is at least in some respects is indifferent to whether the calcium channels are misfunctioning due to genes or environment or both -- but that is a subtle point that is hard to convey in a press interview. I do think it is accurate that the CONTROVERSY about vaccines has interfered with the focus on the medical problems of autism, because people have been afraid to say anything that would make them even appear to be associated with a "politically incorrect" position about vaccines.

Posted by: Martha Herbert | May 28, 2013 at 10:25 PM


(89,706 posts)
52. Wakefield lost his medical license for using kids as subjects with "callous disregard"
Sat May 25, 2013, 01:50 AM
May 2013

Wow, I did not know this:

Britain’s top medical board stripped Wakefield of the right to practice medicine in the U.K., ruling that he and two of his colleagues showed a “callous disregard” for the children in the study, subjecting them to unnecessary, invasive tests. As part of his research, Wakefield took blood samples from children at his son’s birthday party, paying them about 5 pounds each ($7.60), and later joked about the incident.

There must have been a lot more going on than the birthday party incident for him to have lost his license.


(89,706 posts)
54. In the '60s I knew a girl who'd had mumps encephalitis. She was blind and crippled.
Sat May 25, 2013, 02:23 AM
May 2013

My sibs and I had every childhood illness that went around in the 1950s and 1960s. My brother Joe would bring it home (it was always Joe) and then I'd get it and our baby sister would get it. We all survived, although measles, mumps, and chickenpox are all painful -- especially mumps. Our baby sister was really sick though after getting mumps and measles before her first birthday. She spent the rest of her childhood as a skinny and sickly little girl, prone to strep throat. Rubella was not so bad, of course, but it was good luck that our mother was not pregnant when we all got it.

So, that was considered routine for those times. We escaped scarlet fever -- which one of our friends had. We escaped meningitis, which a neighbor's child had. We escaped rheumatic fever, which another little friend had. They all were sick for weeks and weeks and weeks at home in bed with the family doctor making house calls, but came out more or less okay.

But what I did not know until I was in high school was that those childhood illnesses could cripple you as sure as polio, could blind you, could kill you.

When I had my own babies in the mid-1970s the MMR vax was as routine as DPT, and I made sure they got all their vaccinations.

This Wakefield character has done immense harm.


(44,228 posts)
56. Exactly. These entirely preventable diseases can be very serious...
Sat May 25, 2013, 11:25 AM
May 2013

And have long-lasting consequences.

This is where magical thinking and belief in woo leads.

Thanks for adding to the thread.



(4,959 posts)
57. INFO, Hekate and Sid. Take it or leave it, your choice.
Sat May 25, 2013, 12:44 PM
May 2013
RECOMMENDED: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022587413


By Ginger Taylor
March 11, 2013

...Vaccine policy should not be based merely on the reduction of communicable disease levels, but on overall health outcomes for children, including the true increased risk of autoimmune and neurological disorders that may be caused by an overaggressive and inappropriate vaccine schedule.

RECOMMENDED: http://www.democraticunderground.com/1017110012

Here's a press release about a study recently published in a peer-reviewed journal. I added the underline in critical note #3. (FYI, Professor/Dr. John Walker-Smith is regarded as the co-founder of the field of pediatric gastroenterology with Harvard Professor/Dr. Allan Walker).


CryShame Press Release - 9 March 2013


Important new research ( http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0058058 ) reports similar findings to the work of Dr Andrew Wakefield in the 1998 Lancet and in subsequent paper in the early 2000s

Groundbreaking new research examines the molecular structure of inflammatory material taken from the bowels of autistic children. It compares the structure of diseased biopsies in the autistic children with biopsies from three groups of non-autistic children with Crohn’s disease, ulcerative colitis, and histologically normal (the controls).

Previous research confirmed the pathological and immunological make-up of biopsies of autistic children, but had not to date identified its specific molecular structure. Children with the four different conditions have been found to have similar findings of inflammation. But it was not clear if this was the same condition shared by all four groups; or if a distinct condition was specific to autistic children alone; or if indeed there was no disease in the autistic group. A molecular analysis of the genetic structure found in the inflamed bowel tissue of children in each group would provide initial answers to these questions.

To date government and medical scientists continue to deny an association between autism and bowel disease. In the UK there is currently no research into the association between autism and chronic bowel disease. This has been the predicament since the government and medical profession waged a campaign to discredit research from the Royal Free Hospital led by Dr Andrew Wakefield in 1998 and the early 2000s that first identified the presence of bowel disease in autistic children.

Following years of denial from government and the medical profession, new research published in the leading online journal PLOS ONE confirms the presence of intestinal disease in autistic children and supports reports from many parents of ongoing painful gastric problems in their autistic children.

The research studied bowel samples from 25 autistic, 8 Crohn's, 5 ulcerative colitis and 15 normal control children and found that inflammatory material obtained from the biopsies of autistic children had a distinct molecular structure that was different from the other three groups.

This is an important finding of the distinct genetic expression that has now been identified in autistic children as distinct from non-autistic children with Crohns, ulcerative colitis and normal bowels. It paves the way for future research into the specific molecular structure of the inflammation affecting autistic children and hopefully will lead to new interventions and treatment.

Background Notes

1. The first paper to bring to public attention the presence of bowel disease in autistic children was Wakefield AJ, (1998) 'Ileal-lymphoid-nodular hyperplasia, non-specific colitis, and pervasive developmental disorder in children'.The Lancet published this paper in 1998 but subsequently retracted it in 2010 after the GMC found Dr Wakefield and Professor Walker-Smith guilty of serious professional misconduct.

2. Several former colleagues went on in the early 2000s to study the nature of the bowel disease in autistic children, focusing on the pathology of gut tissue and the presence of autoimmune features in the bowel (eg Furlano et al (2001) 'Colonic CD8 and ?? T-cell infiltration with epithelial damage in children with autism', Journal of Pediatrics, Vol. 138, 3).

3. The senior research leader of the Lancet and subsequent papers was Professor John Walker-Smith who in March 2012 had all the charges of professional misconduct made by the GMC quashed on appeal by Justice Mitting in the High Court.

4. Government Minister admits more needs to be done to research autism and bowel disease. Read letter here.

PLOS ONE Journal Information

PLOS ONE (eISSN-1932-6203) is an international, peer-reviewed, open-access, online publication. PLOS ONE welcomes reports on primary research from any scientific discipline. It provides:
•Open-access—freely accessible online, authors retain copyright
•Fast publication times
•Peer review by expert, practicing researchers
•Post-publication tools to indicate quality and impact
•Community-based dialogue on articles
•Worldwide media coverage

Again, conclude what you wish. The future looks promising for sorting all this out, I'd say.


(44,228 posts)
58. C'mon. Give us a Generation Rescue link...
Sat May 25, 2013, 12:49 PM
May 2013

That's just about the only ant-vax crank site you haven't used yet.



(4,959 posts)
62. Check it out, please. Video features GR Executive Director Candace McDonald and her brother.
Tue May 28, 2013, 05:14 PM
May 2013

Time-sensitive partnership with SEVENLY, 5 days 18 hours left.


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This week, your purchase helps provide medical treatment to children of families in financial need. With your help, we will provide families of children with autism the resources and tools to help their children overcome challenges and recognize their potential.


(89,706 posts)
59. I knew my daughter had some concerns about that schedule years before she had her first...
Sat May 25, 2013, 03:35 PM
May 2013

... so after he was born I said if she wanted to work out a less intense schedule with her pediatrician (that is, not so many all at once) that I would be glad to take him to the extra appointments that would involve so she wouldn't have to miss more work.

By that time, however, she apparently had done her own reading and was hanging out with a less woo-woo crowd. She opted for the pediatrician's recommendations.

In the years since then, she has undertaken running a licensed pre-school center. Although there's plenty of woo amongst her clientele, I think few if any of them skip vaccinations -- it just does not work in groups.

My daughter does not listen to me and my lifetime of reading and experience. But she is an intelligent woman, and eventually comes around on science.

Like you, she is too young to have experienced first hand what I have. Public health issues interest me -- always have. For a layperson, I am well-grounded, as was my mother. The illnesses we now have vaccines for are not trivial -- they cripple and kill.

But, conclude what you wish.


(4,959 posts)
61. Test. I am unable to spot this thread in GD.
Sat May 25, 2013, 05:29 PM
May 2013

Last edited Sat May 25, 2013, 06:28 PM - Edit history (1)

...only when I'm logged in. If I were so inclined, I could take screenshots. Weird bug, I guess, momentarily unsettling.

Glad that's figured out.

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