"Condemnation isn't enough. Muslims must take ownership of the problem in their midst,"

[snagglepuss]

snip

Muslim leaders need to take ownership of the specifically religious aspects of the problem, that is to say the twisted theology that easily brainwashes vulnerable people, some of whom are intelligent university students and graduates.

The key planks of this extremist ideology are: that the west is at war with Islam and Muslims; that Muslims cannot ultimately live in peace with non-Muslims or in "non-Muslim" societies and that Muslims must live in an "Islamic state" that enforces the narrowest and harshest interpretations of sharia law. All these arguments are utterly simplistic and destroyed by any in-depth reading of scripture, history or Islamic jurisprudence. Regrettably, however, these divisive and hate-filled messages are still very common in Muslim discourse, here and abroad.

For example, I was present at City Hall in 2004 when Ken Livingstone, then mayor of London, welcomed Sheikh Yusuf al-Qaradawi, the influential cleric with a global audience of tens of millions. In his talk, to my horror, the relatively progressive Qaradawi said that there was no such thing as an Israeli civilian, and that all Israelis were therefore legitimate targets. "Their women are not like our women, since military service is compulsory," as he put it. His translator did not translate this part, so to this day Livingstone and the BBC and Channel 4 crews present probably do not know what was said.

The sheikh justifies terrorism against Israelis but insists that no other land is a land of war. But it is very easy for al-Qaida to extrapolate from his logic and justify terrorism in the west, where according to them taxpayers, never mind serving soldiers, are complicit in murdering Muslims in western-led wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. This logic was explicitly used by the 7/7 ringleader, as well as dozens of British Muslim terrorists since: "We will attack and kill you until you get out of Muslim lands." The Woolwich terrorists are only the latest in a long line of deluded young men.





http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/may/23/lessons-of-woolwich

[msongs]

1. so we need to get out of muslim lands yet we are expected to welcome them into ours?

seems a tad hypocritical on the part of those espousing that belief system

[HeiressofBickworth]

2. Or to express it another way:

Christian leaders need to take ownership of the specifically religious aspects of the problem, that is to say the twisted theology that easily brainwashes vulnerable people...

Yes, I know there will be the Xtian apologists who will say Xtians aren't terrorists, however, I think there is ample historical data that disproves that.

The bottom line is that extremists of any belief are capable of violent action to promote their narrow self-righteous views.

[badtoworse]

3. Christianity has come a long way in the last 800 years.

Can you say the same about Islam?

[yurbud]

8. for at least the couple of centuries, we've got them beat in the killing civilians department

but I don't necessarily blame that on Christianity any more than I blame terrorism on Islam.

[badtoworse]

10. Who's the "we" you're referring to?

[yurbud]

26. Westerners, Europe & US, vaguely Judeo-Christian

though when it comes to killing, Christian should be first.

I don't think religion is the driver though--it's the excuse.

"We gotta save the souls of those heathens by stealing their land, making them slaves, and then converting them. And kill them if they resist."

Sort of like race-based slavery. Someone figured out if you limit it to an easily identifiable group, it would be easier to keep track of them and harder for them to escape.

[badtoworse]

34. The violence to which you are referring is not being done in the name of Christianity.

You are being disingenuous by saying that.

[dkf]

69. Boy I didn't know Atheists were exempt from the draft seeing as how these are all Christian wars.

[yurbud]

70. and we demand that every president give at least lip service to being Christian

[Luminous Animal]

15. The Christian Identity movement belies that statement..

http://www.historycommons.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=us_domestic_terrorism_tmln&haitian_elite_2021_organizations=us_domestic_terrorism_tmln_christian_identity

[badtoworse]

25. This is all you could come with?

[Bluenorthwest]

4. And even if we accept that equation fully it absolves neither faith of their responsibilities.

So while some might say the equation itself is strained or in poor taste considering the reason for the OP, an extremely brutal public butchering, that does not matter to me because even if the two are the same, both are accountable for the actions done in their names. So your point does not really address the OP at all.

[SQUEE]

6. I have many friends that are believers that are

Quite vocal in thier condemnation of idiocy commited in the name of God, they have counter protested at a Chick-Fil-A, blown horns and reved Harleys at Funerals to drown out Phelps and his merry band of morons, and straight told people to shut the fuck up for defaming my religion and such... I do not see many Muslims exibiting this type of fervor to let their own extremists know they are out of line.

[yurbud]

9. when Muslims do speak out, do you expect Fox News to cover it or the MSM that is invested in war?

[SQUEE]

11. Actually I do see reports, hence I did qualify "Many"

I also recognize there is a fear involved, Moderate and liberal clerics have reason to fear death and destruction seeing as the extremists they are decrying are violent. Phelps and the Pro-Life and anti-GLBT protests are for the most part non-violent, just disgusting. In the rare cases of violence it is localized and usually a lone wolf scenario, not an institutionalized phenomenon.

[badtoworse]

13. IOW, there really is a difference in the level of violence between the two religions.

[SQUEE]

14. no, in the differenceis the actions of some of the adherents,

the religions are equally violent/non violent, depending on your frame of reference.

[badtoworse]

16. Why don't you expand on that? I'm not sure what you mean.

[SQUEE]

20. That if you see either one as a violent, or NON violent religion..

it is according to YOUR frame of reference, either could be interpreted, via their own teachings and Holy Writ as either one.

[badtoworse]

24. My frame of reference is the amount of actual violence done in the name of the religion

There is no other religion that is even close to Islam when you look at it that way.

[HiPointDem]

27. oh bull

[SQUEE]

46. hmmm

I will have to disagree, most all religions have a body count, animists up to modern secular humanists, Islam being a front runner, but probably still a far second to Middle Ages Christianity.

[badtoworse]

52. See Post No. 3

[Quantess]

89. Weak reasoning.

You are willfully ignorant.

The religions are not equally violent. Fundamental Islamists win that contest, as they also win the destruction and riot "prize". Muslim extremists are dangerous, and they don't show any discretion to whether a particular government is involved in the NATO wars for oil or not.

[badtoworse]

12. Sorry, but the Muslim silence on this is deafening.

[Posteritatis]

21. And is always described as such, even when it's not there. Funny, that. (nt)

[HiPointDem]

28. oh bull

[closeupready]

29. I'm grateful that it doesn't matter what you think.

[yurbud]

59. instead of just watching Fox News you could google "muslim cleric condemn terrorism"

or any variation thereof and find out what you don't know.

[badtoworse]

92. I tend to watch NBC for news and haven't seen much there in the way of Muslim condemnation of terror

I did the Google search you suggested and it turned up a mixed bag - nothing I would call a groundswell.

[Dreamer Tatum]

18. Moral relativists are really entertaining.

Progressive this, progressive that, until Islam needs defending, then they reach 400 years into their ass to come up with
Christian atrocities.

What you read in a history book = what is on video from fucking YESTERDAY.

Whatever. At least I'm amused by the silliness.

[Libertas1776]

22. +1

[closeupready]

31. Well, it would amuse you; you're not a liberal.

So there you go.

[CrawlingChaos]

32. And the wars of conquest are happening TODAY

Wars filled with unspeakable atrocities I'll bet you don't care think about, let alone look at. That is happening fucking NOW.

[leftynyc]

61. Is the killing being done

in the name of Christianity? By the Jewish, Muslim, Atheist military members? If it's not (and it isn't), your analogy is completely off base. The moral relativism on this board has become predictably pathetic.

[CJCRANE]

71. What is it done in the name of? nt

[Quantess]

90. oil, DUH.

But give muslims asylum in europe, and it will bite those countries in the ass. No matter if those countries are not NATO members, or are not even benefiting in any way from the wars on oil.

[FreeState]

88. Uganda, Christians killing others daily n/t

[hrmjustin]

79. I agree we all need to take ownership of our extremists.

Unfortunately many Muslim countries are not liberal democracies and that makes it harder.

[JI7]

5. these are mostly thugs who would have done horrible things regardless of their religion

they are the same ones who would shoot or throw acid on girls for going to school if they were not living in the west.

[Posteritatis]

7. Ahh, mobile goalposts. (nt)

[MNBrewer]

19. I think the UK murderers just moved the goalposts on their own

[MNBrewer]

17. Not that there hasn't always been some nativist violence against the muslim immigrants

in the european countries, but I expect it to get hundreds of times worse soon. These Swedish riots and the brutal murder in the UK will set off reprisals, I think. I feel sorry for the law abiding muslim immigrants who will bear the brunt of it. it's sad.

[CrawlingChaos]

23. How about Westerners "take ownership" of the atrocities committed against Muslims?

And every time a murderous lunatic who happens to be Christian or Jewish commits a heinous act of violence, everyone in that group has to get out in the public square and self-flagellate? No, we only apply that standard to Muslims.

Western murder and mayhem gets a big yawn out of our resident selectively-outraged anti-Muslim brigade. I'm so sick of this crap.

[badtoworse]

36. You are being intellectually dishonest

A person's religion is only relevant if they are acting in the name of that religion. That is so elementary, I amazed I have to point it out. What difference does it make what religion they happen to be if it's not motivating their actions?

Why do you think Islamic terrorists frequently yell "Allahu Akbar" before they commit their violence? How many examples of Christians or Jews doing something similar can you point out?

[Rise Rebel Resist]

37. you do know that from 2005 back 35 years that

islamic terror accounts for 4% in the us according to the FBI and 6% terrorist attacks worldwide. Polly not

[badtoworse]

38. Citation?

[Rise Rebel Resist]

39. sure

http://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publications/terrorism-2002-2005/terror02_05#terror_05sum

sadly the other is now a dead link

[badtoworse]

43. I'll look into this and respond.

I would differentiate between property damage incidents (Earth First, et al) and acts designed to kill or maim innocent innocent people.

[Rise Rebel Resist]

44. by all means

[CrawlingChaos]

40. the hell I am

The murderer's explicitly stated motive was vengeance for the killing of Muslims. He is quoted as saying "we will never stop fighting you until you leave us alone". The man was clearly deranged and enraged by the violence perpetrated against Muslims. He could have been any religion or no religion at all. These senseless acts are a byproduct of war and the predictable result of those in power putting zero value on human lives. That is so elementary I'm amazed I have to point it out, but then you're not really interested in intellectual honesty, are you?

[Donald Ian Rankin]

41. Nearly all those atrocities are commited by muslims.

The main reason there has been so much bloodshed and carnage in Iraq and Afghanistan is *not* because the West has been committing atrocities, but because it has been failing to prevent muslims from doing so.

There have been far, far fewer civilian casualties in those countries from Western action than there have been from muslim militants.

Moreover, if it makes a difference (I'm not sure whether it does or not) virtually all the civilians killed by the West have been killed entirely accidentally (although arguably negligently in many cases), whereas most of the killing by muslims has been deliberate murders of innocents.

[CrawlingChaos]

45. I can't even imagine maintaining that level of delusion

How do you keep reality from penetrating your right-wing fantasy bubble?

[Zoeisright]

65. Are you nuts?

Ever hear of the Iraq war, which killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqis? That wasn't muslims doing that, dear.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

68. Yes, actually, it mostly was.

Hundreds of thousands is the number of people killed *as a result of* the Iraq war, not the number killed *in* it (which was in the tens of thousands, many of them not civilians). Far more people died afterwards as a result of sectarian violence than were killed in the invasion itself.

[hrmjustin]

83. The Iraq war was fought for oil and money not God.

[snagglepuss]

48. Why not address the fact that more Muslims are being slaughtered by other Muslims

than by kufir?

[CrawlingChaos]

49. Pamela Geller, is that you?

[snagglepuss]

50. Hardly. Why not address the issue of Muslims killing Muslims?

[CrawlingChaos]

54. I can just imagine where you're getting your "information"

Your use of the term "kufir" is very telling.

There's no way to know how many Muslims have been killed by the U.S. military directly because they don't consider them important enough to count, but all official estimates are absurdly low. But if the U.S. and it's allies prop up strongmen who do the killing, by what leap of twisted logic would one absolve the U.S. of responsibility? Then there are the millions dead as a result of U.S. imposed sanctions, the disease and deformities caused by depleted uranium... the horrors extend far beyond what we can imagine from the safety and comfort of our sanitized bubble. Not that you give a fuck.

[snagglepuss]

57. LOL Kufir is telling. How so? I have no issue acknowledging U.S. war crimes whereas

you are committed to viewing Muslims as victims. You need to open your eyes Hezbollah is assuring asshole Assad of continued support. Sunnis continue to slaughter Shia in Pakistan.

[leftynyc]

62. Is that cretin killing Syrians?

Was she doing the killings when Iraq and Iran were at war? Accusing people of being right wing because you don't like what they're saying is the worst kind of argument and shows you can't back up what you believe using facts.

[Warren DeMontague]

30. If you have an invisible friend that tells you to kill people, it's a problem.

I don't care what you call it.

[CrawlingChaos]

33. So nothing is ever a byproduct of the endless wars, huh?

Nothing to do with torture and mayhem and wholesale slaughter brought upon Muslims at the hands of the West?

It's always about the "invisible friend". Yeah sure..

[Warren DeMontague]

35. Are you responding to something I've actually said?

Because maybe you should try that.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

42. Some things are, most things aren't.

Remember than 9/11 predated both Iraq and Afghanistan.

In some cases, Western actions may be the reason for muslim terrorism (although not all of those actions are bad ones - many muslims hate good things the West does too, like promoting women's rights and vaccinating against polio), but in most cases they're probably just an excuse.

[Comrade Grumpy]

47. History didn't begin on September 11, 2001.

The West had a huge opportunity in the Middle East after World War II, and we blew it.

--Creation of the state of Israel on Arab lands.

--Overthrow of the Iranian government to restore a pro-Western monarchy

--Embrace of medievel fundamentalists monarchs (Saudi Arabia, the Gulf states, Jordan).

--Repression and subversion of leftist alternative parties and movements.

--Creation and support of Islamic militant fighting groups against the Russians in Afghanistan (oops).

--Dozens of Western military bases throughout the region.

--The Muslim holy land as a staging ground for the wars against Saddam Hussein.

--Lots of cheap talk about democracy as we prop up oil sheiks.

[Apophis]

51. I have a better idea

The West needs to quit invading Muslim lands and just leave them the hell alone.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

60. Yes and no respectively.

We need to maintain pressure on Islamic countries to abandon Islamic values and adopt liberal "Western" (although they are actually universal) ones - respect for women's rights, gay rights, freedom of speech and religion, etc, etc, etc.

Military force is not a good way to do that.

[Apophis]

86. Touché.

[janlyn]

53. I have to wonder

if the problem is really religion itself, or if it is not the fault of the individuals within a religion who use the ignorance of their followers to forward their agenda.And therfore ultimately the responsibility of the individual for their lack of knowledge.
I say this just from my own observation that a large number of religious individuals I have known had not read their religions scriptures in their entirety.

[YoungDemCA]

55. The governments and other institutions of the Western world-especially the United States-

...must take ownership of their history, past and present, of imperialism, colonialism, and cultural destruction of the world's developing nations, which include much of the Muslim world.

[LostOne4Ever]

56. If Muslims need to own the issue

Then every religion needs to own the issues when one of theirs does something like that in the name of their religion.

Christians
Jews
Muslims
Hindus
Buddhist
Toaists
Shintoist
etc
etc
etc

[snagglepuss]

58. Whataboutery is the ultimate inanity. Let's stay focused on the issue at hand.

[leftynyc]

63. Its' the only argument they have

and you've been here long enough to know that islam is some kind of moronic sacred cow around here.

[Zoeisright]

64. Yeah, right.

As soon as the Catholic church does something about its pedophile problem and right wing fundies condemn the KKK.

[Nye Bevan]

66. But Fundie Christians blah blah Crusades blah blah Salem Witch Trials

blah blah Burnings at the Stake!

[whatchamacallit]

67. Oh yeah? Well the US must take ownership of the problem of their god

Mammon. It's the real religious influence behind the war on terror.

[snagglepuss]

73. A vast number of Americans not to mention millions worldwide

subject America and Christianity to withering criticism and rightly so. What is telling is that it's the Americans who defend the indefensible that point to the behavior of others, for instance pointing fingers at China when they want to avoid tackling green house gases. Muslims, as stated by the iman wrote the article, have to step up to the plate and start analysing what needs to be changed on their end.

[whatchamacallit]

82. Not sure how your response relates to my post

That said, speaking of defending the indefensible, if terror is fear born of death and destruction, we're the biggest terrorists around.

[snagglepuss]

85. Where's the evidence that terror is born of death and destruction? The vicious violence

between Sunni and Shia is based on religious differences. The obscene use of terror tactics employed by Saudis and Islamists like el -shabab against other Muslims is done so in order that everyone conform to their brand of Islam.

[LittleBlue]

72. What a load

Good example of why I blocked the Guardian on my browser. Their opinion pieces are trash, this one in particular is racist. Like Muslims have a special obligation to be blamed for the crimes of other Muslims, unlike any other group. Group responsibility is bullshit, we are individuals and make individual choices.

They need not take ownership of anything. I hear the Guardian trust is losing something like $100m per year. Good riddance, they are a fake left-wing paper if ever I saw one.

[snagglepuss]

74. Well your post speaks volumes. You haven't even looked at the article. The piece is written

an imam. What is to be blamed is a religion that cannot handle the fact it is a product inspired human imagination and thus fallible.

[LittleBlue]

75. Oh, it's an imam so that makes it okay

Imagine if a black guy published an op-ed where he suggested black people take ownership for their problems. Oh yeah, there have been those in the past like Juan Williams, and it's still racist tripe. I refuse to give that paper a hit.

The Guardian has done this in the past where they've published ridiculous op-eds. For instance, in their sports pages only 34.3% of the football transfer stories come true. Meaning 65% of their sports page is based on rumors. Awful journalism, but par for the course in the UK.

British papers are crap crap crap, the Guardian is in the top tier of a bad lot.

[snagglepuss]

78. You know nothing of the Guardian which is vilified for being Islamic apologists.

If you ever read the Guardian you would know its editorial position.

[ForgoTheConsequence]

81. Seems to be a pattern with her.

She thinks she's being "progressive" by painting with the broadest of brushes.

[ForgoTheConsequence]

76. Muslims aren't a race.

Try again.

[LittleBlue]

77. I'll take "Myths about racism"

for $100, Alex.

Done bumping this racist thread. Go on ahead. Just make sure when the next "Blacks are responsible for crime in America" racist thread comes up, remember to be consistent.

[ForgoTheConsequence]

80. Nice try again.

But condescension doesn't mask the fact that you're offended for a group of people without knowing much about them or their culture.

By the way attend any given black church on a Sunday and you're bound to here a sermon on accountability, its not racist and black leaders including Obama have been preaching it for a while.

Knee jerk ignorance isn't becoming of anyone, and condescension in defense of ones own ignorance makes its even worse.

[randome]

87. That entire section of the world conflates religion with race and nationality.

It's a potent brew that is unlike that of Christianity or even Catholicism. That, IMO, is what makes it especially difficult to separate its component ingredients. And why, as has been said, the culture and the religion is badly in need of reformation.

That includes the Jewish religion/nation/race. They, too, need to take a good, long look at themselves in the mirror.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[snagglepuss]

91. +1

[hrmjustin]

84. I think Islam needs a reformation!

Than again so do many other religions.

But Muslim leaders need to do a better job at speaking out against islamic terrorism.