Why not a "conscience clause" for those opposed to guns, akin to pharmacists

[ZRT2209]

Last edited Fri May 24, 2013, 01:49 AM - Edit history (1)

opposed to dispensing birth control?

I mean, if teabaggers expect us to accept the argument that a pharmacist (or any health care provider) should not be forced to violate their consciences in providing medicine or services (because they believe in the sacredness of human life), then certainly they must accept the argument that some people, based on the sacredness of human life, should not be forced to rely on owning their own gun for self-protection?

Many teabaggers have argued that the woman who was raped in Josephine County, Oregon because there are no police to respond to 911 (due to anti-tax fanatics) should have owned a gun for self-protection.

Why should she be forced to pay with her life or safety because she chooses not to own a gun?

[SheilaT]

1. Did I miss something? Are we being required to own guns now?

[ZRT2209]

2. per the teabagger argument: own a gun or getting raped is your own fault

[Tommy_Carcetti]

23. Since when do we need to take anything teabaggers say in context with reality? nt

[Jenoch]

3. "Why should she be forced to pay with her life or safety because she chooses not to own a gun?"

Absolutely she should not be raped. However, if she were armed it is possible she would not have been harmed.

[ZRT2209]

4. sounds like you're saying it was her fault she was raped

[backwoodsbob]

7. no one said any such thing

HOWEVER

If I was in her position...had been beaten by him before...ongoing threats...no police presence...Hell yeah I would have advised her to buy a gun.I would have advised her to buy a .44 Magnum.At the first sign of trouble that gun being fired will scare most people off

I don't see anyone saying it was her fault...that's a BS argument and is the reason I post so little here now.You make a bullshit conclusion based on an argument no one made.A strawman.....something that makes up probably half of the posts on this site now

[marions ghost]

13. Riddiculous

Turn people into murderers? Even if she could handle a gun with any speed and accuracy, it's still no guarantee. What if he's got a gun? She could get herself killed, not only raped. Or end up facing murder charges and living with having killed someone.

Escalation of such a volatile situation is stupid.

[LAGC]

15. Shooting someone in self-defense while they are trying to rape you is not murder. (n/t)

[marions ghost]

16. OK excuse me--let's get legal and call it homicide

whatever you want to call it, it's still the taking of a human life. Not easily justified under any circumstances.

We need better ways to deal with domestic violence than arming everybody to the teeth. Or giving everybody a pit bull.

Maybe the wife having a gun to threaten with would be "speaking the abuser's language"--eye for an eye & all that. But it is still a barbaric solution. And fairly often the armed abused wife just gets killed with her own gun.

Backward solutions to the problem. A gun is merely a symbol of security. It is not real security.

[NickB79]

25. Speaking as someone who's actually used a gun in self-defense

Yes, sometimes it is very easily justified. Not easy to do, as you WILL need counseling for years to come, but easy to justify when the lives of your family are at risk.

Maybe the wife having a gun to threaten with would be "speaking the abuser's language"--eye for an eye & all that. But it is still a barbaric solution.

Yet, if police arrived, that would have been their "barbaric" solution as well, to draw their weapons and threaten the use of deadly force.

We're humans, not angels. For all our intellect and reason, a large part of what we do is still influenced by the parts of our brains that evolved to keep us alive on the dangerous African plains a million years ago. Because of that, sometimes violent people need to be met by a violent response. Maybe one day we will evolve beyond that, but that day is not yet here.

[marions ghost]

39. with people advocating guns as the solution

to problems of domestic violence, we will certainly not evolve.

Telling abused women to go out and get a gun is seriously f__ed up.

[ZRT2209]

19. that's not a given, especially with these fucked-up right wing judges

[tritsofme]

37. I don't know how one could rationally read the post you replied to and come to that conclusion.

[mwrguy]

5. Gun Owners: "Join our cult or get raped"

I think that sums up their position.

[ZRT2209]

6. exactly

[Nine]

12. +1

[alcibiades_mystery]

14. More evidence for the basic proposition: gunners are assholes

Oooofah. They are the skeeve, for real.

[Paladin]

18. +1. (nt)

[magellan]

8. The teabagger argument is just more blame the victim twaddle

Only because it happens to support their position that people should be responsible for their own safety, i.e. own a gun.

Following their logic, you'd think they'd be against say, people living in areas prone to tornado activity. But they aren't saying that because you can't stop a tornado with a bullet.

It's amazing to me that anyone would essentially argue on behalf of a criminal by saying the victim didn't take the opportunity to defend themselves properly. But teabaggers aren't known for their empathy, or for being able to view others and their situations outside their own narrow frame of reference. Everything is simple black and white to them. (No wonder they loved Bush** so much.) If only life were really so predictable.

I'm not sure why anyone wants to live in a place where their security is down to how fast they can reach their gun and use it, but apparently some do. My guess is most of them have never actually had to defend themselves in that position.

[NickB79]

9. You rely on the cops or you rely on yourself

There really aren't any other options. However, even with a fully stocked police department, there will be situations where it will take officers vital minutes to respond to a call. In those minutes, all kinds of shit can go down.

Short of giving every citizen their own personal armed guard, there will be instances where the police will not be able to help you. Those are the risks we take living in a society such as ours.

they must accept the argument that some people, based on the sacredness of human life, should not be forced to rely on owning their own gun for self-protection?

There is irony in someone proclaiming their belief in the sacredness of human life, and in the same breath saying they wish to rely on armed police with plenty of lethal weapons for their defense.

[Recursion]

10. "conscientiously scrupulous of bearing arms"

That's a legal phrase as old as the Republic.

[Nine]

11. It takes a Republican gun nut to see things that way.

(their way, not the OP's way)

Let's see. A woman's ex-boyfriend shows up outside her door trying to get in. She calls 911 and begs for help, yet no officers are sent to help her. Eventually the guy breaks in and attacks her and rapes her. What's the moral of the story?

a. We need to stop dismantling the public infrastructure to the point where even basic services like police responding to 911 calls are compromised. (Hint: dismantling the public infrastructure = constantly fighting the taxes that pay for it.)

b. We need to take domestic violence more seriously than we do and make it a higher priority when police resources are strained.

c. Everyone should have a gun so they can act as their own law enforcement.

If you chose C, please show me the gun control legislation that prevented this woman from having a gun to protect her.

[Jenoch]

17. There are places

in rural norther Minnesota where under the best circumstances, because of distances involved, that the fastest response time by law enforcement could be an hour. I would not wish to depend solely on law enforcement for protection.

[ZRT2209]

20. then don't live there

[NickB79]

21. Well, there goes most US farmland

Seeing as you can't have rural farmland on the scale we need AND have a dense enough population to ensure police at your door within minutes of a crime. Ah well, time to depopulate all those rural counties where you might have a neighbor every quarter-mile down a dirt road and the standard vehicle on the road is a tractor. What a shame, seeing as I like to do things like eat food and wear cotton.

Seriously though, what a ridiculous thing for you to say. There is much irony in the fact you don't want Republicans telling you to own a gun for self-defense, but you think you can tell people where they can and cannot live. Nice.

[X_Digger]

27. Or poor neighborhoods in urban centers..

.. where cops do a 'slow roll', making response times anywhere from 15-90 minutes.

[ZRT2209]

32. sounds like you want to live in Somalia where the biggest gun = the law

sounds nice

[X_Digger]

33. Sounds like you want a personal armed guard

(Not really, that was a hyperbolic response to your silliness.)

I'm not the one telling poor people to move because the cops don't respond quickly enough.

[tritsofme]

36. So are we depopulating the rural countryside now?

lol, good, well thought out argument you have here.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

22. What?

I'm sorry.....what?

[kudzu22]

24. So what are you saying

What is your remedy for "gun objectors". Should we make it illegal to rape them? Or that every time a gun objector is raped a gun toter has to be raped too, to make it even?

[badtoworse]

26. Logic isn't your strong suit

[ZRT2209]

29. use a gun or get raped. I love America!

[Jenoch]

40. I didn't see anyone on this thread say anything

like this except for you.

[aikoaiko]

28. No where is a civilian forced to own a firearm.

Couple of towns have legislation "requiring it" but the same legislation allows for exemptions.

[ZRT2209]

30. if you don't want to own and use a gun, you get raped or killed. Good choices!

[aikoaiko]

34. Show me where someone said that.

[tritsofme]

38. Just as there are many risks and dangers associated with owning a gun.

In many rural areas you can expose yourself to risks if you are not armed. It's up to you to run the cost/benefit analysis.

But I guess straw men are more fun to play with than real arguments.

[X_Digger]

31. Police have no legal obligation to come when you call.

Courts have repeatedly made that clear.

You have to decide for yourself how much you're going to rely on police that may or may not come when you call. Whether that's hardening your house (assuming you own and can make changes), getting a dog, getting an alarm, or arming yourself- there are many things you can do to insure your safety.

[HockeyMom]

35. Should the victim be prosected then

for not having a gun to defend herself? Oh, my, I AM DOOMED. I lived in a gun household. I do not know how to use, or want to, the guns IN MY OWN HOME. I do not even know the COMBINATION to the safe where "my' guns are stored.

Throw the book at me if something happens. Or maybe just declare me INSANE for not wanting to USE a gun I have in my home.