For the sake of argument, is it okay for a 23 year old to have sex with a 16 year old?

[ScreamingMeemie]

For context, because that's how I do things:

http://www.sexlaws.org/answer_board_question-sex_law_0

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2896052

http://www.wptv.com/dpp/news/region_indian_river_county/Copy_of_state-attorneys-deadline-looms-for-18-year-old-kaitlyn-hunts-decision-on-plea-deal


In my opinion? No it isn't. Those are two very different peer groups...two very different age groups.

16 votes, 0 passes | Time left: Unlimited
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[Rex]

1. age/2 +7

According to my calculations, no.

[uppityperson]

2. 60/2+7=37?

[Rex]

3. Not my cup of tea.

But it happens. What, you think a 37 year old is like a 16 year old in mentality?

[uppityperson]

15. Mine either but whatever.

What, you like to try and put words in my mouth?

[Rex]

25. Just returning the favor

nt.

[uppityperson]

27. Could've just checked my math. Nt

[William769]

34. You go girl!

[KamaAina]

4. Again, not OK, but should not be illegal.

I'd only make it a crime if the younger party was under 16 and the older one over 21. That would still protect (usually) girls from creepy pervs, while preventing situations like the one in Sebastian, Fla. where the parents of a 15-year-old girl turned in her 18-year-old girlfriend the day she turned 18.

[ScreamingMeemie]

7. See link I attached with poll (that's what this is in reference to)

She was not turned in the day she turned 18 for clarification.

She turned 18 in August and was arrested in February. I still don't think it's right because I fully support not prosecuting members of the same peer group (ie. high school classmates) for sex offenses as felonies. They played on the same team and went to the same classes. I think it's reprehensible that one is labeled as "Okay" and the other (with a smaller age gap yet still containing one high-school-aged child) is not.

[magical thyme]

67. Per police affidavit, the DOB is 8/14/94 and the victim is 14.

The affair started 5 months after the accused turned 18.

The parents turned her in after they asked her to leave their daughter alone twice and their daughter ran away and spent the night with her. The right thing to do would have been to take her back home to her parents, not spend the night having sex with her.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2013/05/21/us/hunt-arrest-affidavit.html?_r=1&

[MADem]

5. One can vote, drink, enlist, drive, enter into contracts, and is not subject to youth curfews.

And the other cannot do any of those things, save perhaps drive (and in some states, that will be on a learner's permit or the hours a child might operate a vehicle may be limited) and is subject to youth curfews.

23 year olds have no business messing around with high school kids. It's predatory.

[Floyd_Gondolli]

13. What about in the olden days?

Like in the American west. It happened, no?

Were they predators or just old western type folks?

[uppityperson]

17. Different times then, the "olden days".

[Floyd_Gondolli]

20. Wow.

No shit?

[uppityperson]

23. Chartreuse

[Floyd_Gondolli]

24. Cobalt

[MattBaggins]

51. So say we all

[MADem]

19. In the olden days, women were often traded like cattle--which wasn't terribly

progressive. Back in the olden days, they'd string up gay people.

Back in ancient Rome, pedophilia got an up-check, too.

You really want to try to float that "compare and contrast" balloon?

That was then, this is now.

We're supposed to be smarter now; and yes, they were predators. They just didn't know any better--but we do.

[galileoreloaded]

26. several hundred thousand years of human biology = predation. got it. nt

[Warren DeMontague]

29. Have you ever studied the behavior of primate bands?

Just because something is biological, doesn't mean it's good. There is a place for objective morality.

We are bright enough to make our own decisions, above and beyond our lizard or mammal or primate brains.

[galileoreloaded]

33. this will be the rubicon for you and I, and will be fun

morality is base instinct. pure hindbrain/subconcious, survival of the species stuff.

the ability to engage (reroute bloodflow) the pre-frontal cortex and engage higher functioning (originally for militaristic strategy and systems creation purposes) ILO the amygdala is what allows us to step past basic morality.

that's why when you meet someone who hates a liar, its a dead giveaway to limited intelligence and emotional capacity and a lack of emotional IQ. their inability to engage those higher functions renders them apoplectic and they resort to social shaming to cover their own insecurities.

in that vein, objective morality is a hallmark of the weak, ergo humanity has evolutionarily selected for the Dark Triad (narcissism, Machiavellian-ism, psychopathy) as fitness indicators of procreative strength.

[Warren DeMontague]

36. you think only people of limited intelligence don't like liars?

I don't like liars because I don't like to waste my time. Deliberate obfuscation equals time wasting.

[galileoreloaded]

37. in my consulting business

which focuses on human behavior, i find that 95% of human behavior is predictable.

is the reason you don't want to waste time with a liar because

a. you don't wish to, nor have the skills to, decipher their higher functioning

or

b. feel they have nothing to add and prove it by wasting your time?




i have learned more from sociopaths, psychopaths, and studying the group dynamics of human female communication than anything else in my career, and have profited handsomely. i am considered the leader in extrapolative behavior modelling. consider it.

[Warren DeMontague]

38. attempting to bait me isn't going to work.

Not playing.

See if you can predict what I'm going to do next.

[galileoreloaded]

40. er, im not but ok. :) nt

[MADem]

44. I have no idea what you are trying to say. nt

[MattBaggins]

52. Yes

if the several hundred thousand years of human biology was predatory in nature than it was predatory.

What is hard about that? Just because we used to hit women over the head with a club and rape them doesn't mean we should continue to act like animals.

Do we have to continue down a bad road just because it's how Australopithecus did it?

[DonViejo]

6. Depends on a state's age of consent rule...

age of consent 16 (30): Alabama, Alaska, Arkansas, Connecticut, District of Columbia, Georgia, Hawaii, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Kentucky, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, Michigan, Minnesota, Mississippi, Montana, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Jersey, North Carolina, Ohio, Oklahoma, Rhode Island, South Carolina, South Dakota, Vermont, Washington, West Virginia

age of consent 17 (9): Colorado, Illinois, Louisiana, Missouri, Nebraska, New Mexico, New York, Texas, Wyoming

age of consent 18 (12): Arizona, California, Delaware, Florida, Idaho, North Dakota, Oregon, Tennessee, Utah, Virginia, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania[47]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_North_America#United_States

[ScreamingMeemie]

8. I'm asking what you think about it.

[DonViejo]

9. And I responded, "Depends on a state's age of consent rule." nt

[ScreamingMeemie]

11. So you don't have a personal opinion. Okay.

[DonViejo]

14. If that's how you translate my response, by all means go for it....

You'll be wrong, of course, but, go for it.

[BainsBane]

10. Not okay, but not illegal

in most jurisdictions.

[etherealtruth]

18. Yep

Ill advised, (probably) immoral .... but legal in most jurisdictions

[jehop61]

12. My own experience

My 14 year old daughter was impregnated by an 18 year old. Should we have had him arrested? I don't see any difference. Sex with a minor is illegal.

[Gravitycollapse]

16. These hypotheticals are useless without knowing the two participants.

[davidn3600]

21. This is apparently legal in Florida... 23 and 16 year old CAN have sex

http://www.ageofconsent.com/florida.htm

[kentuck]

22. Males are slow.

The question should be: Is it ok for 16 yr. old girls to have sex with 23 yr old boys/men? Is 18 years old some magic line that says you are now responsible for all your actions, even when the little head is ruling the big head.... Just for discussion...

[gateley]

28. My own experience -- I had sex with someone older than 23 when I was 16.

It was my choice, my decision, it was just a non-issue.

[MattBaggins]

53. People get really irate but here is the breakdown

You at 16 should have the legal right to have sex as you wish. It should not be a crime for you to have sex with a 40 year old.

It is a great idea however to have laws making it illegal for the 40 year old to have sex with the 16 year old.

[onenote]

30. what if the 23 year is the 16 year old's teacher or coach?

What if the 23 year old is a Marine recruiter? What if the 23 year old is the 16 year old's cousin?

These polls are pretty useless, imo.

[randome]

31. It also depends on what the parents want.

Missing from all the conversations that I've seen about the 17/14 y/o hs relationship is what the parents want.

If a parent or parents object to their child being allowed to have sex with someone else, they should be able to put a stop to it until the child is 18.

Granted, determined kids will find their own ways but a parent should not have to let a hs or anyone else make a decision for them.

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[MattBaggins]

56. Why not?

Parents do not own their children. Children have a certain amount of rights that the state should be protecting for them even from their own parents.

Parents: I don't want my child getting a life saving medical treatment. I want to pray and leave it to Gawd. Gubmint can't tell me what to do.

Child: I want to live though. give me the treatment.

Courts: Hey parents... go fuck yourselves.

Even with sex at some age the parents don't get a say or at least the courts shouldn't be involved any more.

[randome]

65. Parents DO effectively own their children while they are still children.

If the parents considered their child to have been raped, that should factor into what happens with the relationship. A child as young as 14 is more likely not going to be mature enough to understand sex.

Not always the case, of course, but the parents should not have to sit down and shut up if they believe their child has been raped or otherwise coerced into having sex.

I completely agree about the medical treatment issue, though. That's not a 'maturity' issue, but a decision about life or death.

[hr]
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[hr]

[Tikki]

32. Maybe, for some it is more about perception than a strict morality..

From 14 years old on I was not interested in even being seen with a guy who was older than me.
I was interested in guys my age and thought guys even 4 years older were creepy.

Even now, in my 60's, I am with a guy in his 60's because I was with him in my teens.

Morally and ethically it is probably not good to put either a young man or young girl in
a situation where they have to take on responsibilities beyond their scope.
But then, I have met very responsible teens, just not sure they want to become parents
or fight off criminal sex charges at those ages.


Tikki

[William769]

35. My father was born in 1900, my mother 1935.

Guess what my answer is.

[Electric Monk]

39. Can you do another poll too, about a 30 yr old with a 21 yr old? nt

[ScreamingMeemie]

42. This was based on current laws. And how they stand in some states. Hide thread is your friend. nt.

[Marrah_G]

41. It's legal in MA

Once they hit 16 they are free to do as they please.

[morningfog]

49. Most state's age of consent is under 18, I think. Although, I am not sure.

People should be free to do as they please with their bodies. They should also be empowered to know how not to be taken advantage of by someone much older than they.

[jeff47]

43. IMO, once you get beyond about 4 years difference

the balance of power is too far off when you're talking about teenagers. Post-teenagers have usually figured themselves out well enough to deal with that - either by not allowing that power differential, or openly accepting it.

[ZombieHorde]

45. I don't know. nt

[cynatnite]

46. I would wonder why would a 23 year old adult be interested in a 16 year old kid. n/t

[morningfog]

47. As long as it is consensual, yes. Lots of 16 year olds have sex.

[cynatnite]

48. And what if said 23 year old adult likes 'em young like that? n/t

[morningfog]

50. If it was consensual, I would gather the 16 year old like them old like that.

I don't have a problem with 16 year olds being allowed to consent. It is their body, their choice.

[cynatnite]

54. What about 21 and 13 year olds?

16 years old is still considerably less mature than 23 years old. 23 year olds have had the benefit of real life experience that a 16 year old doesn't have. A lot of 16 year olds can fold pretty easy and they're not always emotionally ready to handle the kind of relationship that a 23 year old adult would offer.

I just have real problems with this mainly because we went through something similar and we put the bastard in jail over it. The ages were different, but the spread was exactly the same. We've also raised 2 daughters, too, and have a 14 year old son.

I don't believe you've really considered all the ramifications of an adult with a teenager. Now, if the ages were a little closer together...maybe 20 years old...possibly even 21...I'd probably have to pause. If the teenager was 17, I would definitely be a bit more lenient because the maturity level is different, IMO.

There are a lot of different factors to take into consideration mainly because there are such varying situations that's not going to apply the same in every instance. If I were going to apply hard numbers I would say that an age difference of more than 4 years would most definitely be out of the question.

Also, not every teenager is raised with the benefit of a parent or parents who educates them and prepares them for these kinds of relationships.

[quinnox]

55. its really none of my business

If two people are being intimate and they are obeying the laws and neither one is being forced, I don't see anything wrong with it.

[LWolf]

57. Why do you want to argue about this? nt

[ScreamingMeemie]

58. Try to relax. It's a question. Not an argument. This case has raised some interesting and important

debates. I've yet to "argue" with anyone.

When I don't want to participate, I hide thread.

Also, I have a 14-year-old son. Yep. That's about it.

[LWolf]

66. I am relaxed.

Just curious about your "for the sake of argument." It's an interesting choice of words that indicates a desire to argue a point, rather than explore a topic.

My sons are in their 30s. I somehow managed to raise them without the age of their partners ever becoming an issue. Maybe because they were raised with the expectation that they would, in all kinds of relationships, keep it healthy.

We had plenty of examples of dysfunctional people and dysfunctional relationships, of course. And we all have our own dysfunctions. I think that people who grow up secure, loved, and respected don't tend towards the kinds of imbalances of power that age differences point to.

[cherokeeprogressive]

59. I'm 52. My Wife is 64 next month.

[blogslut]

60. How did we jump from a 4 year difference to a 7 year difference?

Hmm?

[ScreamingMeemie]

61. I based this on the current laws in the state of Florida...

and also to give some context to the other poll, which contained no information.

[blogslut]

62. Okay

Well, how bout I don't play?

[ScreamingMeemie]

64. You do whatever feels right for you.

I'm not your mama.

[KitSileya]

63. That depends on the age of consent in their locality

Many countries have 16 as the age of consent - Norway does, for example. In that case, yes. If the age of consent is 18, then no. I would strenuously fight against a lowering of the age of consent to below 16, just fyi.

It also of course depends on the relationship between them - if the 23-year old is the boss of the 16-year old, or in any other way has a position of authority over the younger person, then it would not be ok, regardless of age of consent.

[Ms. Toad]

68. How about asking your question in a way which distinguishes between

OK and criminal.

They are two very different things. Many things which are not OK should not be crimes just because they are not OK.

[Iggo]

69. ...and trash this thread...

[LittleBlue]

70. I'm more concerned with the older person's intent

than the age in this case, in most cases actually. Let's say for the sake of argument that the older person is a male and the younger is my daughter. Was he cruising a high school looking to pick up a high school girl, or did they meet by chance? Is his intent exploitative or do they genuinely feel affection for one another? And most importantly, does he make her feel good about herself or bad?

These are the questions I use for determining "okay". Not legality, but "okay." My sister has dated some horrifically awful men her own age, one stole from her and one came to her work and threatened her, then stalked her. One held her dog as a sort of captive after she broke up with him. The age thing for me has always been insignificant compared to the truly important aspects of relationships like what each partner contributes, treatment, intent, and most importantly the character of their partner.

[magical thyme]

71. legal, but creepy. and if it were my daughter or son

I'd be pissed as hell. I would not want them dating somebody 50% older than they are.

There's a hell of a lot of emotional and psychological growing that takes place between 16 and 23.

Somebody who wants to date somebody that much younger then they are is just a control-freak looking for an easy target.