HomeLatest ThreadsGreatest ThreadsForums & GroupsMy SubscriptionsMy Posts
DU Home » Latest Threads » Forums & Groups » Main » General Discussion (Forum) » This can't be posted too ...

Sun May 26, 2013, 08:00 AM

This can't be posted too often on a discussion web site, "The Ten Commandment of Rational Debate".

58 replies, 8146 views

Reply to this thread

Back to top Alert abuse

Always highlight: 10 newest replies | Replies posted after I mark a forum
Replies to this discussion thread
Arrow 58 replies Author Time Post
Reply This can't be posted too often on a discussion web site, "The Ten Commandment of Rational Debate". (Original post)
canoeist52 May 2013 OP
kentuck May 2013 #1
MineralMan May 2013 #2
Arkansas Granny May 2013 #3
annabanana May 2013 #4
Progressive dog May 2013 #5
skydive forever May 2013 #6
pangaia May 2013 #14
shawn703 May 2013 #7
krispos42 May 2013 #8
Dr Hobbitstein May 2013 #16
krispos42 May 2013 #28
Dr Hobbitstein May 2013 #30
krispos42 May 2013 #53
dkf May 2013 #51
krispos42 May 2013 #54
SunSeeker May 2013 #9
ZombieHorde May 2013 #10
booley May 2013 #35
ZombieHorde May 2013 #36
Stryder May 2013 #11
JBoy May 2013 #12
canoeist52 May 2013 #26
retired rooster May 2013 #13
N_E_1 for Tennis May 2013 #15
SalviaBlue May 2013 #17
sulphurdunn May 2013 #18
FairWinds May 2013 #19
SpankMe May 2013 #20
Dreamer Tatum May 2013 #21
SunSeeker May 2013 #39
SpankMe May 2013 #22
Populist_Prole May 2013 #23
cheapdate May 2013 #24
yodermon May 2013 #25
rhett o rick May 2013 #37
G_j May 2013 #27
AnotherMcIntosh May 2013 #29
stevenleser May 2013 #47
Nevernose May 2013 #31
rhett o rick May 2013 #38
stevenleser May 2013 #48
rhett o rick May 2013 #52
ismnotwasm May 2013 #32
Silver Swan May 2013 #33
longship May 2013 #34
nadinbrzezinski May 2013 #40
lindysalsagal May 2013 #41
freshwest May 2013 #42
kentauros May 2013 #44
freshwest May 2013 #45
kentauros May 2013 #46
freshwest May 2013 #49
defacto7 May 2013 #43
Rise Rebel Resist May 2013 #50
Savannahmann May 2013 #55
sufrommich May 2013 #56
stevenleser May 2013 #57
stevenleser May 2013 #58

Response to canoeist52 (Original post)

Sun May 26, 2013, 08:05 AM

1. Good post.

Thanks.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to canoeist52 (Original post)

Sun May 26, 2013, 08:07 AM

2. Lots of Internet posters leave the NOT out of that list,

and use it as a guide for discussion.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to canoeist52 (Original post)

Sun May 26, 2013, 08:11 AM

3. Good advice.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to canoeist52 (Original post)

Sun May 26, 2013, 08:22 AM

4. If these were adhered to, internet-wide...

The internet would be a quiet, quiet place.

And a lot more fun

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to canoeist52 (Original post)

Sun May 26, 2013, 08:28 AM

5. What about

Thou shall not confuse opinion with fact.
Thou shall not confuse changing the subject with false dichotomy

Where can I contact this god of the internets and can I cite his commandments as part of my arguments?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to canoeist52 (Original post)

Sun May 26, 2013, 08:41 AM

6. number 6 alone

Would shut down most TV news shows.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to skydive forever (Reply #6)

Sun May 26, 2013, 09:51 AM

14. What TV news shows?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to canoeist52 (Original post)

Sun May 26, 2013, 08:46 AM

7. Burden of proof reversal

Seems to be a favorite tactic of people in religious circles.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to canoeist52 (Original post)

Sun May 26, 2013, 08:48 AM

8. Well, there goes DU

Especially about pit bulls, circumcision, guns, and corn flake fried chicken!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to krispos42 (Reply #8)

Sun May 26, 2013, 10:17 AM

16. I've seen the pit bull and guns arguments...

 

But I must've missed the corn flake fried chicken and circumcision ones.
Just read through a bit of them and realized you left a couple things off:
Breast Feeding and Olive Garden.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Dr Hobbitstein (Reply #16)

Sun May 26, 2013, 11:47 AM

28. The fried-chicken topic got so bad...

...Skinner had to ban the mention of fried chicken until the furor died down. Moderators on DU2 were, I understand, given "remove on sight" rules of engagement for fried-chicken threads, posts, and similar.


Circumcision seems to be an ongoing topic that draws attention, although I don't think it's gotten too bad as of late. The new juries and the "you can't post in the thread anymore after you've had a post removed" seem to quench the worst of the passions.


But a gun-toting woman eating corn-flake-breaded fried chicken in the Times Square Olive Garden while breastfeeding a circumcised pit bull and watching a space probe crash into the moon, after refusing to let the Target security guard check her bags, is sure to make the internet explode!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to krispos42 (Reply #28)

Sun May 26, 2013, 12:13 PM

30. I read through a lot of DU2 Fried Chicken posts earlier today...

 

And while some were funny, I don't get it. Was it one of those "no-true Scotsman" things? I've been a LONG TIME lurker on DU (since around 2002 or 2003 I think), but have only recently been posting. Back then, I only really saw political stuff, not too much OT discussion, so I missed out on the CFFC. I'd love to know a little history behind it.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Dr Hobbitstein (Reply #30)

Tue May 28, 2013, 07:22 AM

53. It might have been before my time as well.

I think the problem was the number of alerts generated, and that the mods had to sort through all of them and re-discuss everything all the time. I wasn't a mod at the time, though. I came into it later, just like you.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to krispos42 (Reply #28)

Mon May 27, 2013, 02:36 AM

51. What's wrong with corn flake fried chicken?

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to dkf (Reply #51)

Tue May 28, 2013, 07:23 AM

54. I think only people that eat raw kittens like CFFC.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to canoeist52 (Original post)

Sun May 26, 2013, 09:03 AM

9. Great list, but the author needs to drop the "s" in premises in #10.

Maybe #11 should be:

"Thou shalt not omit proofreading. (Teabagger sign folly)"

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to canoeist52 (Original post)

Sun May 26, 2013, 09:29 AM

10. Great list, but #1 is slightly off.

An ad hominem is more than just a personal attack. Just calling someone an asshole is not an ad hominem fallacy. The fallacy requires the personal attack to also be an attack against the argument.

"Rush Limbaugh is an asshole" is a personal attack, but not an ad hominem.

"We all know Limbaugh is an asshole, so we don't even need to consider his stance on X" is an ad hominem.

That's a crappy example, but I didn't get much sleep, so please cut me some slack.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to ZombieHorde (Reply #10)

Sun May 26, 2013, 02:58 PM

35. I think it can also be misconstrued another way

That if someone make s a poorly argued and cherry picked argument, that you can't accuse that person of being decieftful or intellectually lazy.

Take the rampant republican hypocrisy.

Hypocrisy on say, the IRS or investigating reporters doesn't necessarily mean there are no valid points.

But that hypocrisy would suggest that the arguer may not be making a valid point and should be given extra scrutiny.

Just my opinion though.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to booley (Reply #35)

Sun May 26, 2013, 02:59 PM

36. Good point. nt

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to canoeist52 (Original post)

Sun May 26, 2013, 09:33 AM

11. Thamk you very much.

I have a few FB buddies that can't seem to make a post without violating at least 4 of these.Especially #8,when regurgitating something from one the many pulled it out of their ass websites.
This will come in very handy.Now I can just reply with a number.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to canoeist52 (Original post)

Sun May 26, 2013, 09:35 AM

12. Similar in some ways to the "argument pyramid"

Don't argue something if you can't do it in one of the top 3 levels

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to JBoy (Reply #12)

Sun May 26, 2013, 11:43 AM

26. Great pyramid chart. This is my facebook political posting rule as well - top three only.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to canoeist52 (Original post)

Sun May 26, 2013, 09:39 AM

13. Everybody should study logic.

It's amazing how a little information about logic can expose pure b.s.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to canoeist52 (Original post)

Sun May 26, 2013, 09:56 AM

15. A List Of Fallacious Arguments

Interesting website explaining even more arguments.

http://www.don-lindsay-archive.org/skeptic/arguments.html
This is the DU member formerly known as N_E_1 for Tennis.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to canoeist52 (Original post)

Sun May 26, 2013, 10:20 AM

17. Thanks for the list.

rec.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to canoeist52 (Original post)

Sun May 26, 2013, 10:29 AM

18. Commandment 11

 

Though shalt not introduce irrelevant information and claim it is relevant in order to divert attention from the original topic. (Red Herring Fallacy)

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to canoeist52 (Original post)

Sun May 26, 2013, 10:54 AM

19. Thou shalt not claim . .

 

that all opinions are of equal worth, that an uninformed - out the wazoo - opinion is as legitimate as a well-researched analysis.
It is not.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to canoeist52 (Original post)

Sun May 26, 2013, 11:03 AM

20. #10 has an error

"Premises" should be "premise".

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to canoeist52 (Original post)

Sun May 26, 2013, 11:07 AM

21. DU would then have roughly 100 posts per year nt

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Dreamer Tatum (Reply #21)

Sun May 26, 2013, 09:19 PM

39. LOL. Yup. And other boards would have even less.

Oops. Did I just violate #2?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to canoeist52 (Original post)

Sun May 26, 2013, 11:07 AM

22. Nice collection of sensible statements

But, we're guilty of a few of these on our side, too. We should stay aware of these when posting.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to canoeist52 (Original post)

Sun May 26, 2013, 11:18 AM

23. Pithy stuff. Thanks for this

I see, hear, endure cons doing many of these when they argue.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to canoeist52 (Original post)

Sun May 26, 2013, 11:25 AM

24. Great post. Thank you.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to canoeist52 (Original post)

Sun May 26, 2013, 11:36 AM

25. one caveat.. use this list AT YOUR OWN PERIL in an argument with your spouse n/t

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to yodermon (Reply #25)

Sun May 26, 2013, 03:07 PM

37. My spouse has two rules of argument. One, there should never be an argument because she is, by

 

default, always correct. Two, should she ever be wrong.....wait, there is only one rule.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to canoeist52 (Original post)

Sun May 26, 2013, 11:45 AM

27. K&R

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to canoeist52 (Original post)

Sun May 26, 2013, 12:00 PM

29. The top two represent the worst of what can be seen from some posters: 1) ad hominem attacks and

 

2) creating fictional statements and positions which they falsely attribute to others.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to AnotherMcIntosh (Reply #29)

Mon May 27, 2013, 12:37 AM

47. Yes, lots of those posts all the time. Nt

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to canoeist52 (Original post)

Sun May 26, 2013, 12:17 PM

31. You know who else had lots of rules?

Hitler and Stalin!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Nevernose (Reply #31)

Sun May 26, 2013, 03:08 PM

38. And you're demonstrating the fallacy, absurdus associationus. nm

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to rhett o rick (Reply #38)

Mon May 27, 2013, 12:38 AM

48. Godwins law, aka argumentum ad hitlerum (there is really such a thing)

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to stevenleser (Reply #48)

Mon May 27, 2013, 09:05 AM

52. Yes, but I only use it when I am desperate. nm

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to canoeist52 (Original post)

Sun May 26, 2013, 12:17 PM

32. Stolen for prosterity

I love this, and thank you

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to canoeist52 (Original post)

Sun May 26, 2013, 02:00 PM

33. I just wish that people would stop using the phrase "This begs the question"

when they really mean, "This raises the question."

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Silver Swan (Reply #33)

Sun May 26, 2013, 02:18 PM

34. But #4 does not describe "begging the question" either.

Begging the question is specifically to presume the truth of the conclusion within the premise.

When one makes an argument, one must presume that ones premise is true. Falsifying the premise defeats an argument but does not necessarily defeat the conclusion; it only defeats the specific argument. The conclusion may still be true. That is decidedly not an example of "begging the question".

I would restate #4 as:
Thou shalt not assume the truth of your conclusion in your premise. ("Begging the Question"

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to canoeist52 (Original post)

Sun May 26, 2013, 09:27 PM

40. And the ignore list is your friend

 



Thanks, just saved that list

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to canoeist52 (Original post)

Sun May 26, 2013, 09:39 PM

41. 11: Correcting a spelling error does not indicate superior knowledge or expertise.

It usually means the corrector has missed the point, entirely. And is annoying the hell out of everyone else.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to canoeist52 (Original post)

Mon May 27, 2013, 12:08 AM

42. Ah, feels like Meta.



Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to freshwest (Reply #42)

Mon May 27, 2013, 12:18 AM

44. Doesn't it now?

I'm so glad I never took a class in logic. That way, I can simply say, "Sorry, I don't understand what that is" and keep going

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to kentauros (Reply #44)

Mon May 27, 2013, 12:30 AM

45. LOL! But playing dumb is your best defense with some people.

I took Logic, etc. classes in college, and was a natural for circuit logic at work. I consider neither require brainiacs.

As far as what 'is' is, I think the GOP has made Clinton perfectly coherent on that score.

Since they lie for a living, not just when upset, they have lost reality. The best reason to tell the truth to the best of one's ability, is the chance of discovery.

The GOP has been living in an alternative media reality so long, nothing is real anymore.

They remind me of Kate traveling with Petruchio, the discussion of the Sun and the Moon. You cannot win with them.


Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to freshwest (Reply #45)

Mon May 27, 2013, 12:35 AM

46. I wouldn't say I'm "playing dumb" though.

Some of the things in that list just went over my head. Maybe I'm too tired, but I know even when I'm not, some of that "logical argument" stuff simply doesn't make sense to me.

I prefer the simplest method of all: stick to the point!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to kentauros (Reply #46)

Mon May 27, 2013, 12:39 AM

49. Yes!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to canoeist52 (Original post)

Mon May 27, 2013, 12:13 AM

43. Nice list. I had better keep an eye on myself.

It also brings me to my signature. I hope I live up to it. I think it is sums up a lot of error in argumentation.

See below ↓

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to canoeist52 (Original post)

Mon May 27, 2013, 12:44 AM

50. how many fk up at the first one

 

(by point out did I too just break said rule?)

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to canoeist52 (Original post)

Tue May 28, 2013, 07:29 AM

55. Everyone here would rather eat a raw turd than abide by those rules.

 

On occasion, that would even include me.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to canoeist52 (Original post)

Tue May 28, 2013, 07:59 AM

56. Following these rules would most likely kill

any online discussion group. I know most of us like to pretend we would prefer calm,rational discussions, but the most popular OPs on DU are never filled with polite discussion,nor is that true of any other online discussion web sites I've seen.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to canoeist52 (Original post)

Tue May 28, 2013, 03:38 PM

57. Kick. A recent OP seemed to violate most of these. nt

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to canoeist52 (Original post)

Thu May 30, 2013, 09:30 AM

58. Kick

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink

Reply to this thread