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Sun May 26, 2013, 01:20 PM

Iceland campaigns to restrict internet porn

"I could access pornography in about three seconds, four at the most," explained Geir Johann Geirsson, 19, his laptop open on the classroom desk at Borgarn high school in a Reykjavik suburb. "If you can access the internet you can access porn, no matter how old you are."

But, in this small north Atlantic nation, a battle against the multibillion-pound industry is under way and campaigners are calling on the new government to introduce ways to block online pornography.

Defenders of the internet – who claimed that proposals from the former government to limit porn promoted censorship and attacked freedom of speech – were given a boost at the end of April when the left-leaning administration was ousted by a centre-right coalition. However, gender equality activists argue that, despite the setback, a debate has been started that will not go away.

Ögmundur Jónasson, the former interior minister, who proposed the change to the law, remains adamant the issue must be tackled. "There are people who want to silence this discussion, but it is a discussion that will not be silenced," he said. "People want to confuse this with an argument about freedom of expression, but I would say it is those who are trying to silence the debate who are not respecting freedom of expression."

If a porn ban happens anywhere in Europe it is likely to be in Iceland, which came top of the World Economic Forum's 2012 Global Gender Gap report and has already implemented significant legislation to regulate the sex industry.

full: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/may/26/iceland-crackdown-internet-porn

The good side of the Icelandic government: it actually sent bankers to jail after the financial crisis. However, this ban shows that the nation doesn't value free speech as much as the US does. Debate the morality of porn all you want, but regardless your position it's not the government's responsibility to regulate consenting adults' sexual choices.
This is the DU member formerly known as alp227.

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Reply Iceland campaigns to restrict internet porn (Original post)
alp227 May 2013 OP
SomethingFishy May 2013 #1
redgreenandblue May 2013 #2
SomethingFishy May 2013 #4
redgreenandblue May 2013 #15
Warren DeMontague May 2013 #67
Honeycombe8 May 2013 #102
jmowreader May 2013 #6
SomethingFishy May 2013 #7
jmowreader May 2013 #120
Cairycat May 2013 #9
Honeycombe8 May 2013 #104
Honeycombe8 May 2013 #103
Warren DeMontague May 2013 #129
ForgoTheConsequence May 2013 #3
SomethingFishy May 2013 #5
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SomethingFishy May 2013 #11
stevenleser May 2013 #23
Warren DeMontague May 2013 #28
Honeycombe8 May 2013 #105
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stevenleser May 2013 #12
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Response to alp227 (Original post)

Sun May 26, 2013, 01:24 PM

1. There is a simple solution to internet porn access.

Make every porn site use a XXX web address. Then you can block access to any sites with XXX in the tag if you have kids. It's a simple solution that would solve most peoples problems with Porn on the internet.

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Response to SomethingFishy (Reply #1)

Sun May 26, 2013, 01:30 PM

2. White-listing is much easier and much more effective than black-listing.

How about introducing .kids domains which have strictly controlled content, and allow minors only access to those? Doing it the other way around would require a massive infrastructure and China style web-filters.

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Response to redgreenandblue (Reply #2)

Sun May 26, 2013, 01:39 PM

4. Works for me...

Although I don't see how a massive restructuring is needed to use a XXX domain.. Couldn't they just tack it onto the site name ie: www.xxxmedicoreporn.com?

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Response to SomethingFishy (Reply #4)

Sun May 26, 2013, 02:45 PM

15. The problem is getting everyone, worldwide, to follow the rules.

The internet is decentralized. Websites are hosted in different countries, with different laws, constitutional standards etc. . It would be literal hell trying to enforce decency standards on the entire web. It is hard enough to get everyone to comply with shutting down the stuff that everyone agrees upon to be illegal, such as child porn or platforms to organize terrorist attacks, but how would you do it with content which everyone has wildly different opinions about? Who would oversee it? How would these people be accountable?

The only practical way of doing this that I could think of is what China is doing: Total centralized control over the content of websites, plus isolating the web of your country from the web outside of it. But this goes against the very idea of having an internet and is seen as inconsistent with freedom of speech in many parts of the world.

On the other hand, a "white-list" is pretty easy to set up. One can easily build up a network of tightly regulated websites with content specifically for kids, distribute specialised browsers that can only access such sites, leave it up to the parents to make sure their kids use only such browsers, and kick people out who don't adhere to the standards.

Technically and in the context of the broader implications, the "white-list" approach is just way more feasible.

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Response to redgreenandblue (Reply #15)

Sun May 26, 2013, 03:34 PM

67. The internet views censorship as a routing problem.

That's the beauty of it, for everyone except people who still cling to the idea that somehow they're going to be able to control the communication of others.

This is the DU member formerly known as Warren DeMontague.

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Response to redgreenandblue (Reply #2)

Sun May 26, 2013, 04:52 PM

102. I don't like that because kids actually should have access to anything non-porn, like

a library. It makes more sense to xxx the smaller # of sites, which are the porn sites. Like in a book store. The porn is kept in a regulated area where people under a certain age aren't able to hand around, but kids are allowed to go and read in all other areas in a book store, as they should be. If a 12 yr old has an interest in planes, geometry, history, Hitler, cars, gardening, design, fashion....they, like other people, are allowed full access.

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Response to SomethingFishy (Reply #1)

Sun May 26, 2013, 01:54 PM

6. Who will pay the costs of moving all the porn sites to .xxx?

I can see the U.S. being able to enforce a requirement that porn hosted on U.S. servers be on this .xxx domain, but there's no requirement that a U.S.-owned website be hosted in the U.S. If the pornographers decided to band together to protect their .com URLs and wanted to build an all-porn datacenter in a foreign country, there are at least fifty Latin American and African nations who would love-love-love to have it within their borders. All you need are phone lines, power, diesel or natural gas for the backup generator and a platoon of big motherfuckers with automatic rifles to keep intruders out.

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Response to jmowreader (Reply #6)

Sun May 26, 2013, 01:57 PM

7. Would it be that expensive? What if we don't change the www domain

and just add XXX to the name of the site? I'm sure most porn sirtes are making enough money to change a few letters in their domain name.. let them carry the cost.. And I understand that we are not able to control what other countries do but if we try it and it works maybe others will follow.

Like I said personally I don't want the porn going anywhere but I understand the plight of parents who both have to work and have a hard time keeping an eye on their kids surfing habits.

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Response to SomethingFishy (Reply #7)

Sun May 26, 2013, 05:40 PM

120. It would be far more expensive than you think

Right now the ISPs have an out: they serve thousands of sites and can't afford to examine every image and video to make sure it's not porn. If an ISP were to serve .xxx domains the fundamentalists WOULD inform the press. Worse, they'd track down the non-.xxx companies using an .xxx-serving host and make it real clear those companies were supporting (fill in your fave antiporn attack) by doing business with a company that served porn. Think back to the 1970s when the fundies would photograph license plates of cars in dirty bookstore and XXX theater parking lots, run DMV checks on the numbers then send the pictures to the drivers' wives...which is one of the big reasons porn is now home video only. Anyway, any host that accepted .xxx would soon find itself only serving .xxx.

On the client end, any ISP that didn't filter .xxx at the head end would be accused of supporting children gaining access to porn.

Far from an easy way to filter porn, .xxx would mean the end of aboveboard porn. It would filter down to the parts of the internet the child porn and snuff films are on.

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Response to SomethingFishy (Reply #1)

Sun May 26, 2013, 02:01 PM

9. How would you enforce that?

The problem with that is that a lot of porn sites delight in the breaking of rules - that getting around a rule is part of the fun. I think many sites would not use that tag.

I don't think a ban on porn sites is wise or workable. Low-cost, effective (that is to say, difficult to work around) parental controls and accountability software is perhaps a better solution.

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Response to Cairycat (Reply #9)

Sun May 26, 2013, 04:55 PM

104. That IS a low cost, effective way of limiting access to adults who intend to access those sites.

XXX sites. Sounds easy to block through "parental controls." Easy for teh govt to locate sites that don't have the xxx, through periodic web searches. Those sites are made to come up with simple searches....so it'd be easy to locate them.

Sounds like something to be seriously considered, anyway.

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Response to SomethingFishy (Reply #1)

Sun May 26, 2013, 04:53 PM

103. That's probably one of the things they're going to take a look at. You should pardon the pun.nt

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #103)

Sun May 26, 2013, 06:35 PM

129. They're not going to look at it at all, because the genuises who proposed this immediately lost

an election right afterwards.



It could be a coincidence, but it's not.
This is the DU member formerly known as Warren DeMontague.

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Response to alp227 (Original post)

Sun May 26, 2013, 01:33 PM

3. "it's not the government's responsibility to regulate consenting adults' sexual choices."

Its not the responsibility of arrogant Americans to tell other countries whats in their best interest.

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Response to ForgoTheConsequence (Reply #3)

Sun May 26, 2013, 01:44 PM

5. No it's not, but making it easier for parents to block porn sites

in no way infringes on freedom of speech or access to porn. I'm not sure how adding a tag to porn sites makes us "arrogant" it's the Icelandic folks who want to ban porn access.
Personally my wife and I both watch porn together on occasion and I'd like to be able to keep accessing it. However I understand parents who don't want their kids to have access to it and I proposed a simple solution that would both solve the problem and keep the the internet porn accessible.

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Response to SomethingFishy (Reply #5)

Sun May 26, 2013, 02:23 PM

10. No one is taking away your porn.

But if the Icelanders find that in their country limiting porn is what works best for them, so be it. The Bill of Rights doesn't apply to other countries.

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Response to ForgoTheConsequence (Reply #10)

Sun May 26, 2013, 02:26 PM

11. ?? I didn't say they were.

Maybe you should read my posts before responding to them. Porn isn't going anywhere. I was just trying to come up with a solution that makes it easy for parents to block porn sites. In other words coming up with a fair way to do what Iceland is trying to do without pissing everyone off...

But don't let that get in the way of your condescending post.

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Response to SomethingFishy (Reply #11)

Sun May 26, 2013, 02:59 PM

23. That persons passive aggressive accusation against you is great isn't it?

 

The accusation that you use porn. As if we wouldnt get immediately that they are using a third grade tactic

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Response to stevenleser (Reply #23)

Sun May 26, 2013, 03:03 PM

28. FREEEEDUMB YOUUUU JUST R SKEERED THEYRE TAKING YER PORN

FREEEDUMB


Yes, there is absolutely no philosophical principle involved in any of it beyond "FREEDUMB" and "DON'T TAKE MY BUTT PLUG"
This is the DU member formerly known as Warren DeMontague.

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Response to SomethingFishy (Reply #5)

Sun May 26, 2013, 04:57 PM

105. If there's one truism in this age of electronic media: there's no shortage of ways to get porn.

Regular porn sites, download pay sites, membership sites, DVDs, pay movies, etc. In fact, it's hard NOT to get access to porn, even if you try to avoid it.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #105)

Sun May 26, 2013, 06:34 PM

128. It's a wonder anyone does anything BUT masturbate, actually.

Thank god most people have two hands.
This is the DU member formerly known as Warren DeMontague.

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Response to ForgoTheConsequence (Reply #3)

Sun May 26, 2013, 02:37 PM

12. Its not your responsibility to tell anyone else what they care about. nt

 

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Response to stevenleser (Reply #12)

Sun May 26, 2013, 02:43 PM

14. I haven't done that in the slightest.

I see the porn defenders are in full force today though. That's a nasty little hornets nest to kick isn't it?

Relax neither Obama or the government are going to take your porn. Carry on, but don't blame me if you go blind.

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Response to ForgoTheConsequence (Reply #14)

Sun May 26, 2013, 02:48 PM

17. Yes you did. Just like those people who said we could not defend women against Sharia.

 

You plied that bullshit that people in one country cannot care about the rights of people in another country or its imperialism or some other B.S.

Sorry, I care about women being subjected to Sharia and I care about free speech in other countries and you are not going to shut me up in either case.

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Response to stevenleser (Reply #17)

Sun May 26, 2013, 02:52 PM

19. Give me a break.

Comparing the struggles of females under brutal theocratic regimes to you not being able to access Debbie Does Dallas via broadband is ridiculous and quite frankly disgusting.

Again, Obama isn't going to come in and take your butt plugs and blu-ray dvds. It's all safe.

Iceland is light years ahead of us in terms of social justice and social progress. I'm sure they'll figure this out without the porn loving American peanut gallery's help.

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Response to ForgoTheConsequence (Reply #19)

Sun May 26, 2013, 02:58 PM

22. I don't care what you think. You are not going to shut me up on free speech or women's rights

 

You can use all the childish ad-hominem tactics you want to use. If I want to speak up for Gay rights in Uganda, Womens rights in the Middle East and North Africa, or Free speech anywhere, you will not stop me.

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Response to stevenleser (Reply #22)

Sun May 26, 2013, 03:00 PM

24. No one is trying to shut you up.

Keep on doing.......whatever it is that you're doing.

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Response to ForgoTheConsequence (Reply #24)

Sun May 26, 2013, 03:02 PM

26. That is exactly what you were doing with the passive aggressive accusations against me and the other

 

poster.

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Response to stevenleser (Reply #26)

Sun May 26, 2013, 03:09 PM

37. Are you one of those people....

Who thinks anyone who disagrees with you is trying to shut you up? When you're confronted with a different point of view do you stick your fingers in your ears and yell "FREE SPEECH FREE SPEECH FREE SPEECH"?

Nobody likes that guy/gal.

I was engaging in discourse, I never once said you couldn't believe or say what you felt.

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Response to ForgoTheConsequence (Reply #37)

Sun May 26, 2013, 03:11 PM

41. Nope. But your nasty ad-hominem tactic is exactly that. An attempt to shame into silence

 

As you can see, it wont work

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Response to ForgoTheConsequence (Reply #37)

Sun May 26, 2013, 03:11 PM

42. No, you just tried to end any discourse with sex shaming

A lot of cheap shots about butt plugs and going blind. You must have some issues.

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Response to ProudToBeBlueInRhody (Reply #42)

Sun May 26, 2013, 03:13 PM

46. Victim complex much?

I wasn't shaming anyone. People can do whatever the fuck they want as long as they don't hurt anyone else.

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Response to ForgoTheConsequence (Reply #46)

Sun May 26, 2013, 03:16 PM

49. Proudtobeblue obviously got the same impression. nt

 

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Response to ForgoTheConsequence (Reply #46)

Sun May 26, 2013, 03:17 PM

51. I agree

Too bad that there are people who always assume people who are doing what the fuck they want really aren't, just because they themselves wouldn't do it.

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Response to ForgoTheConsequence (Reply #46)

Sun May 26, 2013, 06:36 PM

130. You are ignoring, perhaps, the psychological harm done by the exploitive pornographers ...

Pornography does a lot of harm...on very many levels.

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Response to ProudToBeBlueInRhody (Reply #42)

Sun May 26, 2013, 03:18 PM

52. Some of that was definitely at least borderline homophobic

 

Interesting that they went right for butt plugs in their attempt to shame.

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Response to stevenleser (Reply #52)

Sun May 26, 2013, 03:21 PM

56. Homophobic?

I'M GAY! Christ you're outrageous.

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Response to ForgoTheConsequence (Reply #56)

Sun May 26, 2013, 03:23 PM

61. That would be a first. I've never met an LGBT person into sex shaming before. I guess its possible.

 

I guess everyone has to be unique for something.

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Response to stevenleser (Reply #61)

Sun May 26, 2013, 03:33 PM

66. Uh huh

Feel better now? I'm sorry that suggesting that a social democracy with the highest standard of living in the world would be capable of sorting things out without faux American outrage made you feel shameful. I'll try to be more mindful of your feelings in the future.

Keep on speaking out.

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Response to ForgoTheConsequence (Reply #66)

Sun May 26, 2013, 03:37 PM

70. A CIO friend said that people show their true colors when posting anonymously on the internet.

 

Your true colors apparently involve cheap ad-hominem shots, sex shaming and passive aggressive behavior.

Hey, don't let me stop you from being who you are. I'll call it out, but don't stop being you.

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Response to stevenleser (Reply #70)

Sun May 26, 2013, 04:04 PM

80. Indeed.

.....interesting.

This is the DU member formerly known as Warren DeMontague.

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Response to ForgoTheConsequence (Reply #56)

Sun May 26, 2013, 07:38 PM

144. I totally believe you!!!

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Response to ForgoTheConsequence (Reply #19)

Sun May 26, 2013, 03:01 PM

25. You sound bitter, that we don't have a sex police here.

"no one is coming in to take your butt plugs"...really- and does that bug you?

Does it make you mad that the Supreme Court, in Lawrence vs. Texas, ruled that consenting private adult sexual behavior was not the business of the government?

Did you know Texas isn't even allowed to arrest gay people anymore? God, why can't we be 'light years ahead' in terms of government busybodies sticking their obtrusive business into peoples' private lives?

Sigh Sigh Heavy Eyeroll. If ONLY the government had more power to monitor consenting adult sex!!!! Griswold v. Connecticut! Right to privacy! ITS THAT DAMN FREEEEEDUMB Heavy sigh heavy sigh WHYYYYYY CANT WE BE MORE PROGRESSIVE!!!!


I WANT A PROGRESSIVE COUNTRY THAT CAN EMPOWER A DEPARTMENT OF SEX POLICE!!!!



by the way, a blu-ray and a dvd are two different things. Just fyi.
This is the DU member formerly known as Warren DeMontague.

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #25)

Sun May 26, 2013, 03:05 PM

32. Wrong.

I don't support prohibition.

I just know a blow hard American know-it-all when I see them.

America is not the world and Americans should worry about the problems in their own backyard before criticizing social democracies far more progressive than our own. Iceland will sort this out on its own.

BTW gays can wed in Iceland, everyone has health insurance, bankers are jailed, and gun crime is almost non existent. I trust Iceland to sort the porn thing out.

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Response to ForgoTheConsequence (Reply #32)

Sun May 26, 2013, 03:07 PM

34. I think someone just stole your login and password. There is no ad-hominem in this post...

 

oh wait.

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Response to ForgoTheConsequence (Reply #32)

Sun May 26, 2013, 03:09 PM

36. Like I said, it sounds like they already are. The people who proposed it got walloped at the polls.

Like I said, in my experience authoritarians (speaking of blowhard know-it-alls) tend to spend so much time in little bubbles talking to themselves, they are genuinely shocked when they find out that most of the rest of the planet is on a completely different page from them and their tautological, self-validating gibberish.

That's probably why they need to invent additional personalities; because no one else can stand to listen to that nonsense for very long.
This is the DU member formerly known as Warren DeMontague.

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Response to ForgoTheConsequence (Reply #32)

Sun May 26, 2013, 08:04 PM

148. +++

 

no shit. hugely agree. Nerve, eh?

BTW gays can wed in Iceland, everyone has health insurance, bankers are jailed, and gun crime is almost non existent. I trust Iceland to sort the porn thing out.

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Response to ForgoTheConsequence (Reply #19)

Sun May 26, 2013, 03:03 PM

29. !!!!

Comparing the struggles of females under brutal theocratic regimes to you not being able to access Debbie Does Dallas via broadband is ridiculous and quite frankly disgusting.




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Response to redqueen (Reply #29)

Sun May 26, 2013, 03:05 PM

30. Why am I not surprised that ad-hominem attacks are celebrated by you? nt

 

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Response to ForgoTheConsequence (Reply #19)

Sun May 26, 2013, 03:11 PM

40. OBAMMER AINT GERNER TAKE MAH BUTT PLUG NO SIR

TEH GERBMINT CAN HAVE MAH BUTT PLUG WHEN IT PRIES IT FROM MAH COLD DEAD

....

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Response to ForgoTheConsequence (Reply #19)

Sun May 26, 2013, 05:03 PM

112. But you can't talk about the struggles of females under brutal theocratic regimes

can you? Because THAT would be telling another country what's in its best interests, wouldn't it? And that's not the responsibility of arrogant Americans, is it?

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Response to LadyHawkAZ (Reply #112)

Sun May 26, 2013, 11:22 PM

156. don't worry

there is lots of coerced porn and sex trafficking under autocratic regimes as well.
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Response to ForgoTheConsequence (Reply #14)

Sun May 26, 2013, 03:05 PM

31. "Carry on, but don't blame me if you go blind."

LOL. You even use the ancient tropes of finger wagging anti-sex right-wing religious crusaders.

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Response to ProudToBeBlueInRhody (Reply #31)

Sun May 26, 2013, 03:10 PM

39. I thought it was funny.

I couldn't decide between hairy palms or going blind. Both are too funny.

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Response to ForgoTheConsequence (Reply #39)

Sun May 26, 2013, 03:12 PM

44. the butt plug thing was funnier.

but I'm not sure it was intentional.
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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #44)

Sun May 26, 2013, 03:14 PM

47. One time I thought I lost mine.

But turns out it was one of those "glasses on the head" type scenarios.

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Response to ForgoTheConsequence (Reply #47)

Sun May 26, 2013, 03:16 PM

50. It clearly could have been worse.

You want to keep track of that stuff.
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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #50)

Sun May 26, 2013, 03:20 PM

55. Are you proposing some sort of registry?

Slippery slope my friend.

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Response to ForgoTheConsequence (Reply #55)

Sun May 26, 2013, 03:22 PM

58. No, no

it was a different sort of slippery slope I was... oh, never mind.
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Response to ForgoTheConsequence (Reply #3)

Sun May 26, 2013, 02:46 PM

16. Looks like Iceland is making their own decision on the matter already.

Defenders of the internet – who claimed that proposals from the former government to limit porn promoted censorship and attacked freedom of speech – were given a boost at the end of April when the left-leaning administration was ousted by a centre-right coalition.


Yeah. Oops. Hmm, maybe that was just a coincidence.

However, experiences with finger-wagging authoritarians indicate that they often live in a bubble and simply tune out any information that doesn't gel with what they've already decided is the truth, so they probably won't take the hint from the voters.
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Response to alp227 (Original post)

Sun May 26, 2013, 01:59 PM

8. Now what is there to do in Iceland...

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Response to lame54 (Reply #8)

Sun May 26, 2013, 04:58 PM

106. An active mind is never bored. Kids should learn that. But not with porn. nt

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Response to alp227 (Original post)

Sun May 26, 2013, 02:43 PM

13. ''consenting adults' sexual choices''

 

porn includes a lot more than ''consenting adults' sexual choices'' and that is what is harmful - the false definition of what porn is. A partcipator that has been drugged or threatened to perform for porn films is not consenting (this is just one example) but that might disturb some freedumb speecher/righters.

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Response to Whisp (Reply #13)

Sun May 26, 2013, 02:53 PM

20. Except, what you're doing there is using an example of non-consent.

And you're describing a criminal act, which ought to be prosecuted. It's telling that no one can argue against consenting adult behavior without, within 5 minutes, falling back on an argument containing non-consent or non-adults. Why is that?



Still, anecdotal hyperbole to the contrary, there is no evidence of widespread non-consent in porn.

As for the use of expressions like "freedumb" (eyeroll eyeroll heavy sigh heavy sigh ) when talking about meaningless, irritating principles like that of free expression and opposing censorship; yeah..
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Response to Whisp (Reply #13)

Sun May 26, 2013, 02:57 PM

21. "but that might disturb some freedumb speecher/righters"

Yup, God damn that free speech nonsense. It'll be so much easier to force strawmen down people's throats and act all authoritarian once we get rid of it.

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Response to ProudToBeBlueInRhody (Reply #21)

Sun May 26, 2013, 03:05 PM

33. sort of reminds me of that freedumb of owning any type of gunz shit.

 

anything goes, I can have my arnsenal becuase it's my right.

how about more interest in other rights, instead of gunz and pornz, say, for freedom from being hungry, for the poor. Yeh, so boring. I never hear quite the shake up and frightened keyboards on that subject as I do on gunz and pornz

what sex slave trade? nah. it's your pearls talking nonsense to you. that trade has got nothing to do with pornz.

whatever, I'm done. pointless useless to talk about this.

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Response to Whisp (Reply #33)

Sun May 26, 2013, 03:09 PM

38. Take it up with the "Moral Majority"

They're on your side, you know.

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Response to ProudToBeBlueInRhody (Reply #38)

Sun May 26, 2013, 03:36 PM

69. anyone with any morality would condemn what can and does happen in the porn industry.

 


and I'm not talking about sex, although that is the Twisty Way that serve the freedumb fighters.

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Response to Whisp (Reply #33)

Sun May 26, 2013, 03:15 PM

48. Lemme know when someone walks into a mall and kills 20 people with a DVD of "Rocco does Prague"

And still, you can buy guns at Wal-Mart. Porn is far more restricted in this society than guns are.
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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #48)

Sun May 26, 2013, 03:19 PM

53. Hell, WalMart barely sells R rated movies.

God forbid Johnny sees a boob.

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Response to ProudToBeBlueInRhody (Reply #53)

Sun May 26, 2013, 03:23 PM

62. Walmart and Iceland. Thinking of the children (nt)

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #48)

Sun May 26, 2013, 03:22 PM

59. Good point. Walmart sells semi-automatics but refuses to sell Playboy.

That pretty much sums it up right there.

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #48)

Sun May 26, 2013, 03:37 PM

71. just saying The Defenders sound very much alike. n/t

 

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Response to Whisp (Reply #71)

Sun May 26, 2013, 03:43 PM

74. And you would hear the same arguments from people in Texas arguing against their anti-sodomy laws.

Prior to the Lawrence Decision.

Freedumb! heavy sigh heavy sigh.

Just because 2nd Amendment people use words like "personal freedom" does not invalidate the concept of personal freedom. Ted Nugent plays a guitar, that doesn't reflect badly on Jimi Hendrix.
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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #74)

Sun May 26, 2013, 03:54 PM

75. "I'll give you my porn when you pry (or take) it from my cold, wet hands"

 

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Response to Whisp (Reply #75)

Sun May 26, 2013, 03:55 PM

76. Right, or my right to love/marry someone of the same gender. Or speak out against the government.

FREEDUMB heavy sigh heavy sigh
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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #76)

Sun May 26, 2013, 04:00 PM

78. sure, same difference all those things you are nonsensing about.

 

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Response to Whisp (Reply #78)

Sun May 26, 2013, 04:03 PM

79. Unlike the clear and obvious connection between a picture of a naked woman and an AK-47.

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #79)

Sun May 26, 2013, 04:19 PM

85. I'm not talking about just a pic of a naked woman.

 

but you know that.

you know that very well. yep.

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Response to Whisp (Reply #85)

Sun May 26, 2013, 05:02 PM

111. Well then you come up with some ironclad non-Burgeresque definition of "porn"

that doesn't involve pictures of naked women, then.
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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #111)

Mon May 27, 2013, 09:15 AM

163. The similarities between fanatic gunners and porners are astoundingly similar.

 

Is there a National Porn Association -NPA-, like the NRA? Because the NRA keeps insisting that to cut down deaths you need more people with more guns, and it's written in the freedumb rules that a person should be able to own guns that are meant for the military all in the name of god and country and everything wonderful. Some jerks even walk around with them strapped on their hairy backs to prove that they are so free. But most of us know that it is only about the big money for the gun/porn manufacturers that is the reason for all this concern about your rights.

The NPA seems to tweek at the same weakness in Americans. Just invoke that freedom word, make it sound like Obama and the Pearl Clutchers (nice band name) are going to come and take all of it away from you, even just the naked lady pics! Nevermind that no one said anything about taking away the varmint guns and the target practice ones or the porn that shows people having sex and doesn't degrade or humiliate.

This is why America can't have nice things. This is why you don't have universal health care when so many other countries do. Invoke and they will follow.

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Response to Whisp (Reply #163)

Mon May 27, 2013, 02:33 PM

165. Wow, you are all over the map, here.

And you still didn't answer the question.
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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #165)

Mon May 27, 2013, 02:40 PM

166. The question of what exactly is porn?

 

Well isn't that an age old tough question.

It's quite simple to me, porn as erotica where people have sex is nothing to get in a twist about but porn that is degrading and hurtful is, and it's usually degrading for the women. But I'm no expert.

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Response to Whisp (Reply #166)

Mon May 27, 2013, 02:50 PM

168. So how precisely does one define "degrading"?

I mean, when Catherine MacKinnon went into Canada to help them craft their anti-porn "class action harm" legislation, she came in from a 2nd Wave ideological perspective that defined a visual depiction of the sex act itself as (in fact, the act itself, ahem) inherently "degrading" to women. And furthermore, the entire premise of the legislation was that every time a man had sex with a woman in front of a camera, it was "hurtful" not just to the woman involved, but to all women, everywhere.

So forgive me if I take a jaundiced eye with that sort of proposal.

Now, I happen to think that a) consensual sex between adults is not inherently 'degrading' to either participant, even when graphically depicted, and b) although (as I've said elsewhere in the thread) I certainly don't think that everything that might be put under the banner of consenting adult 'porn' is wonderful great material -far from it-, the 1st Amendment as a principle is a damned important one, and I don't come by that philosophical position just because I'm worried that "Obama's gonna take my porn away".

He's not, but the principle of free expression and the 1st Amendment- which, by the way, is a helluva lot more unambiguous than the 2nd- is the cornerstone of the Bill of Rights. Damn right I take it seriously.

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #168)

Tue May 28, 2013, 12:11 PM

172. ok, I'll collect a pint of bull semen

 

and pour it all over your face and you have to act like you just love it and want more.

But you are saying if she consents, then it's fine no matter how degrading and you just assume it is her (or his because I am sure there are nasty nasty things done to men in these films too) Free Choice when a lot of coercion and all kinds of background stuff going on that you don't care to think about.

Same argument as the extremist gun nuts. All or nothing otherwise it's infringement on rights to be fill-in-the-blank.

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Response to Whisp (Reply #172)

Tue May 28, 2013, 02:17 PM

174. I'm saying that if you want to create some standard for "degrading" that isn't Potter Stewart's

"I Know it when I see it", (mistakenly attributed by me to Warren Burger upthread. My bad) that is going to be applied as a screen to determine the legality or censorship-worthiness of material involving consenting adults, good luck. And that's what this thread is about, not whether or not every single example anyone can think up (and given your example, you've been looking in some strange places) sounds like a great idea.

The ONLY reasonable, workable standard is consenting adults.

That doesn't mean that everything out there is great, although having lived in some places that are ground zero for sexual diversity, I can tell you that a lot of people enjoy a lot of different things that probably sound weird to others.
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Response to Whisp (Reply #172)

Tue May 28, 2013, 03:01 PM

175. Seriously???? Bull semen???

 

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Response to opiate69 (Reply #175)

Tue May 28, 2013, 03:23 PM

176. haha. sorry for that.

 

I was thinking of our despicable past Prime Minister Brian Mulroney. That is what he used to do, collect bull semen in one of his past jobs. And for some silly reason that tidbit of nothing seeped into my arguments.

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Response to Whisp (Reply #176)

Tue May 28, 2013, 07:11 PM

180. Im reminded of Pickles's joke about the horse.

Man, that was weird.
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Response to Whisp (Reply #33)

Sun May 26, 2013, 03:24 PM

64. Negative freedoms are easy, positive freedoms are hard.

A government can guarantee negative freedoms, like freedom of speech, just by not doing anything - cheap, easy and effective.

Positive freedoms, like freedom from fear or hunger, are much harder for a government to provide, and risk doing more harm than good if you get the legislation wrong.

So the cost-benefit ratio to trying to get the former right may well be higher, even when the latter are more important.

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Response to Whisp (Reply #13)

Sun May 26, 2013, 05:27 PM

118. Nice strawman there.

 

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Response to Whisp (Reply #13)

Mon May 27, 2013, 03:22 AM

160. That's not porn, that's snuff. nt

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Response to alp227 (Original post)

Sun May 26, 2013, 02:52 PM

18. So Iceland will ban ebook downloads of "50 Shades of Grey"? (nt)

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Response to alp227 (Original post)

Sun May 26, 2013, 03:02 PM

27. Interesting.

This is one reason that, while some students were against a ban, many parents were in favour, said teacher Hanna Björg Vilhjálmsdóttir. "I think a shift is definitely happening in Iceland," she said. "Parents are worried about their children and students are thirsty for these gender equality classes, for example. Afterwards the girls say it makes them feel stronger and the boys too have equipment to resist the negative pressure of the porn industry."



Guðrún Jónsdóttir, a spokeswoman for Stigamot, a centre that helps victims of sexual violence, said: "It would make my life so much easier not to fight porn but I have to. Why should we allow unfettered misogyny, images of rape? The argument is that we need to ban porn because it hurts our children, and that is true, but it also needs to be stopped because it is hate speech and violence against women and affects people's relationships."



Thorbjörg Sveinsdóttir, a forensic interviewer and therapist at the Icelandic child protection and advocacy agency Children's House, said she had seen a marked shift in the abuse of children as a result of greater access to increasingly hardcore pornography.

She cited an example of a child as young as six being forced to watch and copy pornography by an older child. "Porn is used like a manual," she said. "We see a lot of these cases."

Too bad for those six year olds, then. Oh well. Their parents should have been hovering over them 24/7, obviously.

And besides, how bad could it be? It's just sex! What's the big deal!

(for those who don't know, no, porn is not synonymous with sex, and before you start sticking up for this multi-billion dollar industry, you might consider taking a look at what's on offer... don't be shy, it's free... you're just a few clicks away from seeing 'dirty sluts' treated 'like the whores they are', etc. ... and that's so far from the worst of it (rape porn, abuse porn). But most people just want to defend the rights to publish this stuff, not actually see for themselves what they're so bravely sticking up for.)

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Response to alp227 (Original post)

Sun May 26, 2013, 03:08 PM

35. There are things on the internet and in life far far worse than porn. n/t

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Response to alp227 (Original post)

Sun May 26, 2013, 03:12 PM

43. Here we see what really interests people

While this gets very little attention. http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022869280
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Response to BainsBane (Reply #43)

Sun May 26, 2013, 03:19 PM

54. While this gets even LESS attention:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022903803
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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #54)

Sun May 26, 2013, 03:23 PM

60. Okay, but I don't see the connection

There is a clear connection between porn and human trafficking.
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Response to BainsBane (Reply #60)

Sun May 26, 2013, 03:31 PM

65. A "clear" connection is disputable. But I think everyone here would agree that human trafficking

ought to be fought and to be prosecuted.

There is a wide chasm between consenting adult behavior and a situation involving non-consent. Still, the evidence of widespread non-consent in porn is simply not there.

My problem with the group in the other link is the jesus-religious connection. While it is reality that many of the groups working to help women who want to escape prostitution are church-based, it strikes me as a shame that there aren't more secular alternatives.

Also, anyone who has spent any time on DU knows, simply putting "porn" in the OP title guarantees people will open it. Human nature.
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Response to BainsBane (Reply #68)

Sun May 26, 2013, 03:41 PM

72. Of course church goers are. So is everyone else.

People watching other people have sex is an extremely popular activity, which is one major (but not the only) reason censorship efforts are doomed to fail.

There is no evidence if the linked blog of "widespread human trafficking in porn". There is a church-based anti-porn organization talking about the issue, but that's not evidence. Sure, the people who think it's an issue, think it's an issue. And yes, there are ex-porn stars who are against porn, just as there are ex-porn stars who support the industry.

As for 12-17 year olds, some things are for adults. How people control the material their kids access is an issue, but it's an issue for the end user on the receiving end of the internet. We don't censor the universe down to a PG-13 level simply because there are people under 18 existing in it.

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #72)

Sun May 26, 2013, 04:09 PM

82. There are certainly cases of child porn

rings, which is human trafficking. Young girls are also trafficked and forced into porn.
I liked that particular article because it was the source for the statistics I cited. The evidence for the clearest link is in criminal prosecutions, as the journal in my other response to your post above provides.
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Response to BainsBane (Reply #82)

Sun May 26, 2013, 04:43 PM

99. Sure, and that's ALREADY very, very illegal.

If the debate is about laws, there are tons of laws- national and international- against anything involving kids.

Just ask the video store owners who had copies of Tracie Lords' videos that she made before she turned 18. That was an outlying situation and it brought down a very serious response.

Which is why porn- the porn in question, the porn that Iceland wants to "ban"- involves adults. So, make that argument or don't, but don't conflate it with material involving kids.
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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #99)

Sun May 26, 2013, 05:04 PM

113. porn is disseminated on the web now

and is extremely difficult to control, which is why illegal activity flourishes. Remember the German cannibal? He found his victims online. The same with the cannibal cop in NY.

Video Store owners? Really? That was like 20 yrs ago. The world is far more complicated now and internet crime far more difficult to control.

I'm not arguing that porn should be banned. Our constitution doesn't allow it. I would, however, like people to think about what is involved in its production.


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Response to BainsBane (Reply #113)

Sun May 26, 2013, 06:24 PM

124. And porn isn't monolithic. But again, those are arguments for a healthy domestic porn industry.

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #72)

Sun May 26, 2013, 04:12 PM

83. source

http://www.protectionproject.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/TPP-J-HR-Civ-Socy_Vol-5_2012-w-cover1.pdf

Church groups are active in combating human trafficking and poverty as well. That doesn't make either practice good.
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Response to BainsBane (Reply #83)

Sun May 26, 2013, 04:41 PM

96. We agree that human trafficking and poverty are both terrible, and should be fought vigorously.

I do not, however, concur with rhetorical attempts to categorize consenting adult behavior- say, consenting adults having sex in front of a camera for other consenting adults to watch- with "human trafficking", however.

I think that cheapens and minimizes the severity of the actual thing.
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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #96)

Sun May 26, 2013, 04:50 PM

101. What you are refusing to understand

Is that enslaved children and young women are forced into porn. It is part of the labor enslaved children and women are forced into. That doesn't mean all porn is created using forced labor, but some is. The criminal prosecutions discussed in that journal article show as much. Girls who have escaped from their captors have also recounted being forced to do porn.

Slaves labor. People are trafficked to perform a function. Sex work is high on that list, but other industries also use slave labor. The State Department and the UN has information on other industries involved. In the US, many slaves are kept as domestics. The Northwest and the Midwest actually have the highest numbers of enslaved workers.

I have an academic background in the study of slavery and have always thought of it as having ended in the Americas in 1888. A couple of years ago I attended a talk by a leading history of slavery in the US who said there are more people enslaved now in the world than at any point in human history. Numbers range from 20-27 million.
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Response to BainsBane (Reply #101)

Sun May 26, 2013, 04:59 PM

108. I'm not "refusing to understand", I disagree.

Anything involving anyone under 18 is illegal basically everywhere on the planet, and irrelevant to a discussion about adult porn.
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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #108)

Sun May 26, 2013, 05:23 PM

117. You aren't acknowledging the evidence

of the criminal prosecutions of people who forced adult women into porn.

For example, in 1999,
an American living in Cambodia, where he maintained a pornographic website,
decided to incorporate into the site what he labeled a “Rape Camp” featuring
“Asian sex slaves” used for “bondage, discipline, and humiliation.”13 Women on
the website were “blindfolded, gagged, and/or bound with ropes while being used
in sex acts,” and viewers were encouraged to “humiliate these Asian sex slaves to
your hearts [sic] content.”14 Expanded service featured live interactive bondage
sex shows from Cambodia with pay-per-view access in which customers could
relay requests for torture that would be fulfilled within seconds. The website also
“promoted prostitution tourism to men visiting Cambodia.”15

The Cambodian Minister of Women’s Affairs called for the American “to
be charged with violating a Cambodian law prohibiting sexual exploitation and
trafficking of women.”16 He was arrested but “escaped prosecution through
assistance from the U.S. embassy.”17 If this incident had occurred more recently,
the perpetrator might have also been subject to criminal prosecution in the United
States. As of 2008, the criminal provisions of the TVPA, including criminal liability
for severe forms of trafficking in persons, apply extraterritorially


And more recently

In other cases, trafficking in persons clearly has been involved. For example,
on December 7, 2011, a federal jury in Miami convicted two defendants, Lavont
Flanders Jr. and Emerson Callum, on charges of sex trafficking. A press release
issued by the U.S. Attorney’s Office for the Southern District of Florida described
that case as follows:22

“The charges spanned from 2006 through July of 2011. During that time,
the defendants had perpetrated a cruel fraud to lure aspiring models to
South Florida by promising them an opportunity to audition for modeling
roles that, it would later turn out, never existed. Once the victims arrived in
Miami, Flanders would instruct them to perform an audition for a purported
alcoholic beverage commercial. During this purported audition, the victims
were asked to promote and drink different brands of alcohol, while Flanders
filmed. Unbeknownst to the victims, the alcoholic beverages Flanders
provided them were laced with benzodiazepines, a common date rape drug.
Once the drugs had taken effect, Flanders would drive the victims to Callum,
who had sex with the victims while Flanders filmed. The defendants then
edited, produced, and sold the footage of the sex acts over the Internet and
to pornography stores and businesses all across the country


See the journal article for more.
http://www.protectionproject.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/TPP-J-HR-Civ-Socy_Vol-5_2012-w-cover1.pdf

These cases are not irrelevant to the discussion, no more than low wages in Bangladesh is irrelevant to discussions about patronizing Walmart. Also I have to wonder how much of the "barely legal" porn involves minors.

My view is that if I consume a product I am responsible for the exploitation that produces that product. I am therefore responsible for a great deal of exploitation, though I seek to minimize it where I can by purchasing locally produced items and fair trade when I can, buying grass fed meat, never shopping at Walmart, not using illegal drugs, and not consuming porn. Everyone makes their own choices. There are likely socially responsible choices you make that I don't.
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Response to BainsBane (Reply #117)

Sun May 26, 2013, 06:23 PM

123. More than anything, those are arguments for a healthy, vibrant, successful domestic porn industry.

One where 2257 statements accompany the material, and where performers are open about what they do and not subject to anti-sex shaming messages like "porn is bad".

However, to assume that everyone who "watches porn" is somehow responsible for the material you cite, is ludicrous. You have no idea what people- and there are a lot of them- who "watch porn" are looking at, nor are you qualified to make blanket condemnation of their moral choices or assumptions about how much ethical thought they put into it.

What it is doing is like finding a couple examples where underwear, say, is made in a sweatshop- and extrapolating from that a condemnation of the entire underwear industry, as well as all the people who wear underwear, and even the idea of wearing underwear in and of itself.

And at the end of the day, people are still going to wear underwear.

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #123)

Sun May 26, 2013, 11:10 PM

153. A well regulated industry would be a step forward, for sure

And if viewers cared about that when selecting their porn sites.

I most decidedly did not make a blanket moral condemnation of others. I presented evidence and expressed MY view. You disagree, which is your right. But to claim I made some sort of widespread condemnation or engaged in hyperbole is factually false. I think my final statement that "you likely make socially responsible choices I do not" is clear evidence that I did not engage is moral condemnation.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #153)

Sun May 26, 2013, 11:52 PM

157. Fair enough. But it might be worth going past the propaganda to see the regulations already in place

For instance, the idea that there is a massive amount of underage participation in readily available adult porn is a fallacy, and belied by the very vigorous- and rightfully so- prosecution of anyone affiliated with material containing anyone underage.

Add to that, again, the use of 2257 statements to verify identity as well as age (and with it a performer's legal signature, which ought to carry some implication of consent) and the truth of the matter is, at least in regard to the much ballyhooed "multi billion dollar porn industry" operating out of places like Southern California, there IS a solid amount of regulation already in place.
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Response to BainsBane (Reply #68)

Sun May 26, 2013, 03:41 PM

73. related to those awful facebook vids and pics and confessions. the young are marinated in this shit

 

and now are acting like shitty animals that think this is the way to treat women/others.

of course the Deniers will deny this forever. No relationship at all to porn and the bad treatment of women and children in porn society and society as a whole. nah. silly girl talk.

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Response to Whisp (Reply #73)

Sun May 26, 2013, 03:57 PM

77. the "young are acting like shitty animals"? Really? Is that why violent crime is down?

Is that why the Millennial generation is the most LGBT tolerant voting block in history?

Yes, yes, I know, (sung to the tune of that Smiths song) "culture in crisis oh no, oh no, it's really serious."
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Response to Whisp (Reply #73)

Sun May 26, 2013, 04:08 PM

81. I saw an interesting documentary

on Showtime called "Sexy Baby." It talked about how images that young women and girls have of their bodies is shaped by porn, which also shapes male expectation. It covered the huge rise in labiaplasty operations. Like every woman in America, I've grown up with a great deal of angst about my body, but it never occurred to me to worry about my labia. Not so for young women.
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Response to BainsBane (Reply #81)

Sun May 26, 2013, 04:21 PM

86. omg, what do they have done?

 

I have no idea what a good looking labia looks to porn consumers... augment or reduce? wot?

holy cripes that's sick.

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Response to Whisp (Reply #86)

Sun May 26, 2013, 04:29 PM

89. reduce

chop them off, seemingly to look pubescent. If you have the stomach for it, you can do a Google images search.
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Response to BainsBane (Reply #89)

Sun May 26, 2013, 04:34 PM

93. no! I'm not looking.

 

the sickness is getting sicker.

but it's those Muslin's that treat their women so bad. Well why the hell would any woman or girl want to mutilate Herself in the Land of the Free and the greatest nation on earth? What kind of sick sick sick society would send that message.

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Response to Whisp (Reply #93)

Sun May 26, 2013, 05:06 PM

115. Here is a review of the documentary

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #89)

Sun May 26, 2013, 05:01 PM

109. I also don't believe these hyperbolic examples are indicative of wide trends.

I do not believe there is some epidemic of porn-driven labiaplasty in this country.
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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #109)

Sun May 26, 2013, 05:05 PM

114. there was like a 70% increase

from 2008-9. Check out the documentary. The statistic is at the end of the review/article.
http://www.indiewire.com/article/television/sexy-baby-documentary-jill-bauer-ronna-gradus-showtime
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Response to BainsBane (Reply #114)

Sun May 26, 2013, 06:27 PM

126. I still don't buy the "culture in crisis" narrative. What are the exact numbers?

I see a 70% figure- okay, so that could mean that 10 people did it one year and then 17 did it the next year. You understand statistics. It still doesn't mean it's an epidemic.
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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #126)

Sun May 26, 2013, 11:05 PM

152. Do a google search for yourself.

It has increased dramatically in the UK and Australia as well.
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Response to BainsBane (Reply #114)

Sun May 26, 2013, 07:01 PM

135. Is Sexy Baby the one where the woman was having labiaplasty because of something her boyfriend said?

There's a story on vimeo that discusses this issue. If you're curious Google "Labiaplasty hungry beast ep 14" - it's on vimeo. (warning: it is graphic)

They interview a surgeon who "improves" women's vulvas, and a guy in the porn industry whose job it is to edit out visible labia.

But nooooooo, the massive increase in labiaplasty isn't cause of porn. Women have all kinds of reasons to undergo surgery to have parts of their perfectly functional vulvas sliced off. Sure they do!




Other links:
http://jezebel.com/5977025/unhappy-with-your-gross-vagina-why-not-try-the-barbie?tag=porn
http://www.beutifulmagazine.com/2011/09/11/vaginas-under-attack-labiaplasty-and-the-porn-industry-graphic-content/
http://www.sexualityresource.com/the-perfect-vagina-why-is-genital-cosmetic-surgery-suddenly-so-popular/
http://www.guernicamag.com/daily/kirsten-oregan-labiaplasty-part-i/

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Response to redqueen (Reply #135)

Sun May 26, 2013, 07:36 PM

142. Couldn't the same argument be made for ANY cosmetic plastic surgery? ...

Say, a nose job?

I keep seeing stuff about an "explosion" of this, but no actual numbers. If no one was doing it 10 years ago and now a few people are, that is still a big percentage of an increase, isn't it?
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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #142)

Sun May 26, 2013, 11:18 PM

155. Cosmetic surgery in general has increased, yes

but labiaplasty has increased at greater rates in the US, UK, and Australia, perhaps elsewhere as well. Media images, whether porn or advertising, influence how people see themselves. I would be amazed if you could find a woman in America who would argue otherwise. It takes a great deal of determination to block out those images. I quit buying fashion magazines years ago, despite the fact I like fashion. It wasn't doing me any good to see images or rail thin women when I was never going to look like that. I've read that men too are increasingly influenced by such images, or perhaps its that there are now more images of male bodies in advertising.
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Response to BainsBane (Reply #155)

Sun May 26, 2013, 11:57 PM

158. There are two numbers, the rate of increase and the number of procedures period.

Ive seen an assertion about the first one, nothing on the second.

I would also add that if insecurity around the physical characteristics of one's genitalia is an indicator of oppressed status or otherwise a reflection of negative social messaging, men have been apparently subjected to scads of both for a VERY long time, given the popularity - far predating the internet and spam, even, hard as it may be to believe- of all manner of "male enhancement" penis enlargement potions, pills, pumps, stretchers, creepy devices and certainly surgeries.



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Response to redqueen (Reply #135)

Sun May 26, 2013, 11:12 PM

154. This woman didn't have a boyfriend

but she did cite conversations with male friends. She made very little money and saved up for years for the operation. I've already read the first two pieces. I'll look at the others too. Thanks.
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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #54)

Sun May 26, 2013, 04:59 PM

107. People are capable of having more than one concern in life.nt

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Response to alp227 (Original post)

Sun May 26, 2013, 03:13 PM

45. PORN THREAD!

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #45)

Sun May 26, 2013, 04:30 PM

90. Is that your name sake?

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #90)

Sun May 26, 2013, 04:34 PM

94. Indeed.

Contrary to popular belief, my name is not, actually, Warren DeMontague. My favorite was in the "Welcome" thread where someone said they always assumed I was some sort of crusty European Aristocrat.



Well, they got the "crusty" part right.

http://www.gtheb.com/

If I were picking now, however, it'd be something from Archer.


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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #94)

Sun May 26, 2013, 04:41 PM

98. A reputation as a crusty aristocrat isn't so bad

People could always hope to be remembered in your will. Do you know Karl Pilkington? He's my favorite. He's a real person, a friend of Ricky Gervais. They animated some old podcasts for HBO.



This is a clip from "An Idiot Abroad."

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #98)

Sun May 26, 2013, 04:45 PM

100. My will? My will? Shit, I'm not even sick.

Okay, maybe I am. I never should have eaten the community stew.

http://spermphoenixfilms.tumblr.com/post/35820275965/ladies-and-gentlemen-i-present-to-you-a
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Response to alp227 (Original post)

Sun May 26, 2013, 03:22 PM

57. If the focus is on filtering the most extreme, violent material then perhaps this isn't a bad thing.

I'll have to see how it plays out, though, before I form a more definite opinion.

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Response to alp227 (Original post)

Sun May 26, 2013, 03:24 PM

63. Reading this thread, the line between reasonable people and fanatic jerks looks very clear indeed.

Crystal clear.

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Response to 2ndAmForComputers (Reply #63)

Tue May 28, 2013, 04:02 PM

179. It's the only topic that brings the kids

out of their "hot women I'd like to..." thread.

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Response to alp227 (Original post)

Sun May 26, 2013, 04:15 PM

84. relegious right masquarding as progeserives

 

The anti pornography crowd is basically just social conservatives in sheep clothing dont be fooled by them, they use the same arguments as the religious right.

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Response to Butcer (Reply #84)

Sun May 26, 2013, 04:27 PM

87. You're right.

Chomsky is a regular Pat Robertson.




What a dumb statement.

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Response to ForgoTheConsequence (Reply #87)

Sun May 26, 2013, 04:31 PM

91. chomsky is a doubious character to say the least

 

chomsky has a very questionable past, his defense of the holocaust denier Robert Faurisson, his repeated denial of genocides done by communist regimes like pol pot in cambodia , his denial of war crimes commited done by milosevic against muslims is another.


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Response to Butcer (Reply #91)

Sun May 26, 2013, 04:33 PM

92. Quotes and citations please.

The Pol Pot thing has already been debunked. Please keep right wing talking point lies out of this, thanks.

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Response to ForgoTheConsequence (Reply #92)

Sun May 26, 2013, 06:44 PM

132. Well, the Faurisson thing is certainly ironic, given the topic at hand.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faurisson_affair

The scandal largely dealt with the inclusion of an essay by American linguist Noam Chomsky, entitled "Some Elementary Comments on the Rights of Freedom of Expression", as an introduction to Faurisson's book, without Chomsky's knowledge or approval. Responding to a request for comment in a climate of attacks on Faurisson, Chomsky defended Faurisson's right to express and publish his opinions on the grounds that freedom of speech must be extended to all viewpoints, no matter how unpopular or fallacious.

His defense was the target of subsequent accusations by various academics and groups. The accusers claimed that his defense went beyond free speech arguments, and that it included a defense of Faurisson's work, and in general they sought to discredit Chomsky by claiming that there was a deeper philosophical and political association between him and Faurisson.

On several occasions, Robert Faurisson has been convicted under French law for his speech. For instance, on October 3, 2006, he was sentenced to a three-month suspended sentence by the Paris correctional court, for denying the Holocaust on an Iranian TV channel.[1]

The Faurisson affair greatly damaged Chomsky's reputation in France, a country he didn't visit for almost thirty years following the affair and where the translation of his political writings was delayed until the 2000s


I'm not really sure how well that translates into the obsessive desire of some here to censor every single sexy naked woman off the internet.
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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #132)

Sun May 26, 2013, 07:01 PM

136. Does anyone literally want to censor "every single sexy naked woman"?

Sounds like a strawman, honestly. And even if they did, they have no power - now or in the foreseeable future - to do so.

As I stated before, I myself am pretty ambivalent about what Iceland is doing here. If the focus is on filtering out the most objectionable material, that which is seemingly based more on violence than sex, then such an approach may well do more good than harm. I highly doubt they aim to censor all sexually explicit material, period, and if that were the case then I would find that objectionable.

*Edit: corrected grammatical error.

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Response to nomorenomore08 (Reply #136)

Sun May 26, 2013, 07:11 PM

137. Iceland's not doing anything, yet-And the folks who proposed it immediately got drubbed at the polls

which probably ought to tell someone, something.


According to this article, the "government's main concern is violent pornography". However, the people who have pushed for anti-porn legislation in countries like Canada- Catherine MacKinnon, in particular- have clearly been arguing from the philosophical position that the visual depiction of the sex act itself is violent and degrading to women. This is taken as gospel truth in certain quarters, taught as an unchallengeable axiom at many colleges.

It is, supposedly, "not up for debate". The penetrative sex act is a Patriarchal institution and EVERY act, particularly that which is caught on film, constitutes inherent oppression and a class action harm against all women.

http://www.economist.com/news/international/21576366-iceland-determined-outlaw-worlds-oldest-business-can-it-succeed-naked-ambition


The government’s main concern is violent pornography, says Ms Gunnarsdottir, and it wants the law to reflect this. For that, however, a clear definition of pornography is needed. It should include the depiction of violent or degrading sexual acts, says Robert Spano, dean of the faculty of law at the University of Iceland.


Violent is probably a small amount more doable, but I'm really curious as to how they're supposed to define "degrading".
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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #137)

Sun May 26, 2013, 07:26 PM

138. I agree that it's subjective. And I certainly agree that the MacKinnon approach, philosophically,

is pretty far off the deep end. But how many people (DUers included) actually subscribe to the most extreme, literal version of it? I've even read quotes from MacKinnon herself claiming that she never meant to the reduce the issue to "sex=rape," and that she believes healthy male-female sexual relationships are at least possible. Now whether that's what she actually meant at the time, or it's revisionism, I can't say. But it does, at the least, indicate a desire to distance herself from her most extreme statements.

In the end I can only speak for myself, and the only thing here that worries me is the conflation of sex and violence, which to be fair is found in more than just visual pornography. Like I said, I'm not squeamish - I'll admit to a taste for the "extreme" in literature/film/music - but real violence, real abuse, just appalls me, and makes me wonder how those who witness it will influenced.

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Response to nomorenomore08 (Reply #138)

Sun May 26, 2013, 07:31 PM

140. And I agree.

Although Lou Reed liked a bit of kink, too.
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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #140)

Sun May 26, 2013, 07:38 PM

143. No doubt. The VU were one of my entry points (at about 18/19 - I'm 28 now) to the more far-out

realms of music. Another one, actually, was the original 'Live/Dead' versions of "Dark Star" and "Turn on Your Lovelight."

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Response to nomorenomore08 (Reply #143)

Sun May 26, 2013, 07:41 PM

145. That's because you have taste.

One of the first concerts I went to was Lou Reed - I was maybe 15 so it was the early 80s (thats how old -I- am) wasnt familiar with his stuff but I had some musically cool friends. Blew me away.
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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #145)

Sun May 26, 2013, 07:58 PM

146. Judging by 'Rock'n'Roll Animal' I'm sure he could put on a hell of a show in his day.

I haven't been to as many "real" concerts - i.e. not house/warehouse parties - as I would've liked, but I do have some great memories of my own, like Swans at the Regency Ballroom (S.F.) a couple years back. One of the loudest shows I've ever witnessed, 2 solid hours of awesomeness.

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Response to nomorenomore08 (Reply #146)

Sun May 26, 2013, 08:00 PM

147. Never been there, at least not that I recall.

The Warfield, now there's a fun venue. I was fortunate enough to see Jerry there a few times. Fun.
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Response to Butcer (Reply #84)

Sun May 26, 2013, 04:29 PM

88. It's really not quite that simple...

While I'm generally very anti-censorship, and have no problem with pornography in and of itself - as they say, it's just people fucking - some of the material out there is appalling enough that I'd prefer young adolescents, at the very least, be shielded from it. We're talking all kinds of abuse, torture, simulated(?) gang rape - it's out there, and in vast quantities. And obviously, by its ubiquity, we know that somebody is getting off on the stuff. Reminds me that no place in the universe is more frightening than the human psyche...

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Response to nomorenomore08 (Reply #88)

Sun May 26, 2013, 04:41 PM

97. Exactly.

I don't have a problem with porn. What I have a problem with is that mainstream pornography is full of simulated rape, pedophilia and torture. Ex-female porn stars have come out and said that in order to stay relevant in porn you need to keep getting more extreme until there is no use for you. I appreciate the feminist approaches to porn but mainstream porn is completely sexist, why do you think nearly every scene ends with a man ejaculating on a woman's face while she is on her knees?

Porn often times preys on woman who need a little money or are desperate.

We wouldn't accept this type of sexist behavior outside of porn and it should be called out.

Read Jennie Ketcham's book, its a good one.

But it’s not talked about, because a lot of things aren’t talked about. You don’t know people’s names, you just know if they have a clean bill of health and if they’re willing to sign a W-2 to take it up the ass.


http://www.amazon.com/I-Am-Jennie-Ketcham/dp/1451644760

A lot of things are swept under the rug just so men can bust a nut.

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Response to nomorenomore08 (Reply #88)

Sun May 26, 2013, 05:02 PM

110. Parents have the right to have their children protected from porn, if they choose.

In stores, the porn is kept in an area at the back of the store, where supposedly children are not supposed to be hanging around. It's illegal. In book stores and libraries, porn is kept in regulated areas. It's illegal to sell porn to a child. I see no reason porn shouldn't be regulated on the internet.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #110)

Sun May 26, 2013, 05:07 PM

116. I'm not even thinking of sex/nudity per se, myself. I think we Americans tend to be a little uptight

But recognizing that has nothing to with also recognizing that a lot of pornographic material out there nowadays seems more based around violence and abuse than around actual sex.

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Response to Butcer (Reply #84)

Sun May 26, 2013, 04:36 PM

95. Welcome to DU my friend!

 

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Response to Butcer (Reply #84)

Sun May 26, 2013, 05:50 PM

121. Hello Butcer

[img][/img]

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Response to alp227 (Original post)

Sun May 26, 2013, 05:29 PM

119. If people don't like porn, they shouldn't go to those sites.

 

No government should get involved in this.

Sheesh.

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Response to Apophis (Reply #119)

Sun May 26, 2013, 06:15 PM

122. but.... but..... the CHILDREN! (nt)

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Response to Apophis (Reply #119)

Sun May 26, 2013, 06:27 PM

125. Mostly I agree, from a legal standpoint at least.

On the other hand, I do think it's important to consider the images that we (collectively) consume. And for me, this has nothing to do with sexually explicit material by itself, but the juxtaposition (or conflation, perhaps) of sex and violence. I think a lot of people really aren't aware of the amount of violent, brutal material that's available out there, and not only on the "black market" either. I do my best to avoid such material myself - my tastes are pretty vanilla anyway - but even "mainstream" tube sites provide some incredibly disturbing simulated(?) rape/torture scenarios. And I'm anything but squeamish, I've willingly sat through movies like "Irreversible" and "Cannibal Holocaust," but some of the "legitimate," perfectly legal porn available horrifies even me.

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Response to nomorenomore08 (Reply #125)

Sun May 26, 2013, 06:31 PM

127. If people aren't aware of it, it means they're not consuming it.

QED.

The idea that there's this really popular stuff out there that most people just don't realize because they don't go looking for it is a contradiction in terms. The people who aren't aware of this material are already "considering the images they consume" by not consuming them.
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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #127)

Sun May 26, 2013, 06:42 PM

131. I guess because those who consume it are, to a certain extent, the only ones aware of it.

And with 7 billion people, a third or so of whom have some kind of Internet access, something can certainly be "popular" without most people knowing it exists. Look, how many times do I have to repeat, I have no problem with porno as such, I've seen plenty in my time, and I'm sure as hell not clamoring for censorship. But when material easily accessible from "mainstream" sites is enough to freak out even somebody like me, who loves gruesome horror flicks and things like that, then there's obviously something wrong, and it's not entirely confined to the fringes either.

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Response to nomorenomore08 (Reply #131)

Sun May 26, 2013, 06:52 PM

133. Still, people like what they like. Even if censorship were a good idea, it's not feasable.

And just because I'm in the position of defending free expression for consenting adults, does NOT mean I'm defending every single piece of whatever that may be out there.

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #133)

Sun May 26, 2013, 06:54 PM

134. Of course. I think you and I agree far more, in the end, than we disagree.

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Response to nomorenomore08 (Reply #131)

Sun May 26, 2013, 07:29 PM

139. "..material easily accessible from "mainstream" sites is enough to freak out even somebody like me,

who loves gruesome horror flicks and things like that, then there's obviously something wrong, and it's not entirely confined to the fringes either."

Thanks for acknowledging reality. Most seem to pretend this doesn't exist, that it exists only on the fringes, or actually defend it.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #139)

Sun May 26, 2013, 08:10 PM

150. I'm pretty desensitized, but not (I'd like to think) to real-life suffering.

And the thing with extreme, violent porn is that it's not necessarily "just a movie" - much of it is actual video recordings of assault, battery, and in some cases rape. Exactly how much is "real" is impossible to quantify, but the mere fact that such material - which at the least is indistinguishable from real torture and sexual assault - is so popular, makes me very afraid for the future of our species.

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Response to alp227 (Original post)

Sun May 26, 2013, 07:34 PM

141. Censorship is wrong. Good that Iceland ousted their insane government

 

Truth is that most people watch porn. Anyone who tries to restrict the internet should be ousted like these anti-free speech gangsters in Iceland.

You don't like porn? Don't watch it. Simple.

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Response to LittleBlue (Reply #141)

Sun May 26, 2013, 08:07 PM

149. I dont agree with censorship

but I think saturation with porn helps turn the world into Idiocracy because it's so stupid. Non-violent porn is no worse than a lot of other stuff we're wallowing in, but I think there's a problem when it becomes an addiction. Also when it turns middle aged men into letches as they try to re-live their youth. Gotta watch what you feed your head.

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Response to alp227 (Original post)

Sun May 26, 2013, 10:40 PM

151. Ice cold showers all around

n/t

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Response to alp227 (Original post)

Mon May 27, 2013, 12:10 AM

159. Big fat waste of time and resources

 

How many millions will be spent on technology and laws that most likely will be easily circumvented by any curious computer literate teenager in a matter of minutes?

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Response to alp227 (Original post)

Mon May 27, 2013, 03:37 AM

161. To be blunt, banning porn is a dumb idea by foolish people who don't know how the internet works.

All banning it would do would create a massive black market that would benefit only organized crime. Prohibitionists don't seem capable of understanding that though.

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Response to Kurska (Reply #161)

Mon May 27, 2013, 04:05 AM

162. To be fair, I'm pretty sure Iceland's proposed law wasn't a blanket porn ban.

Which still doesn't necessarily make it advisable, or useful - I'm undecided on it myself - but the intent seems to be more about filtering out extreme, violent porn (depicting torture etc.). If I'm wrong about that, then someone correct me, but I haven't seen any indication that they're trying to ban sexual materials, full stop.

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Response to nomorenomore08 (Reply #162)

Mon May 27, 2013, 01:46 PM

164. Changing the criteria for what porn they want to ban doesn't at all make it any more possible

Nor does it change that all this is going to result in is profit for organized crime.

Yet, I've reread the article and the word violent wasn't mentioned and "violence" was only mentioned as a result of sexual violence apparently resulting from normal old porn.

I don't know where you are getting the idea that this ban or restriction would be directed at only violent porn. Normal porn is already sell in Iceland. The law is just an absolute joke because of how easy it is to get porn online.

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Response to Kurska (Reply #161)

Mon May 27, 2013, 02:42 PM

167. It's the thought that counts.

The primary criteria for determining whether proposed legislation should be enacted is to ask whether the proposal makes us feel good about ourselves. Doing a cost-benefit analysis makes you a woman-whipping capitalist, while standing on anti-censorship principles makes you a Commie ACLU member.

All banning it would do would create a massive black market that would benefit only organized crime.

The only reason I disagree with you here is that I think the Internet is so good at getting around basic data censorship that there would be almost no real-world consequences to enacting the laws here. The exact structure of how porn was distributed in Iceland might change, for example large YouTube-like sites might be blocked while there would be a rise in Torrent-distributed smut, but I think the same amount and same variety of material would remain available.

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Response to alp227 (Original post)

Mon May 27, 2013, 03:13 PM

169. The push for Gender Equality in Iceland

Scroll down in the Guardian UK article:

During the gender equality class in Reykjavik, pupils were asked what kind of impact porn had on young people. Eypructur Ragnheidthardóttir, 18, spoke up. "A girl could get a picture in her head of how she should look," she said. "And maybe think she should do everything that she is told, whether she wants to or not."

This is one reason that, while some students were against a ban, many parents were in favour, said teacher Hanna Björg Vilhjálmsdóttir. "I think a shift is definitely happening in Iceland," she said. "Parents are worried about their children and students are thirsty for these gender equality classes, for example. Afterwards the girls say it makes them feel stronger and the boys too have equipment to resist the negative pressure of the porn industry."

I think this is a very healthy way to address the issue, teaching both boys and girls to resist the sexual stereotypes they get from porn. And, NO, I don't favor banning all porn, especially when we can't even get a good definition of it.

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Response to alp227 (Original post)

Mon May 27, 2013, 03:18 PM

170. Ah. More laws are the solution! Of course.

 

Look Iceland, you did good with the bankers and crooked politicians and everything. And enforcing existing laws against FRAUD like everyone else should have. But that doesn't mean you've got all the options on how to insure a healthy respect for the will of the people, and certainly not insofar as the people's right to privacy is concerned.

Yet, I can also understand that you have an ulterior motive here. The saving of what you see as wasted sperm and egg impregnation opportunities. We realize that you're population diversity is very, very limited and that accidental incest is a big issue for you.

On the other hand, your citizenship requirements require that a person learn the Icelandic language (not the easiest of tasks, which I'm sure is the point). But it severely reduces opportunities to increase population diversity as well. So we get it. Exclusivity. And now censorship.

So let me see if I have this straight: You live on a cold, barren rock in the North Atlantic, with active volcanoes and lava flowing underground giving you free heat and hot water, but also a land where almost everyone is your cousin. There's little to do, all the fast food restaurants left during the financial crisis and today with your financial recovery you find yourselves richer, healthier and robust. Full of all kinds of vim and vigor -- but: COUSINS.


- So. What'll you do? Why let's cut off the only source of recreation and sexual release that's left, that's what!

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Response to DeSwiss (Reply #170)

Tue May 28, 2013, 08:15 AM

171. What is actually going on in Iceland

http://studiotendra.com/2012/12/29/what-is-actually-going-on-in-iceland/

~ snip ~

Why are these myths being spread about Iceland? Why do people think that Iceland is a progressive paradise when in actual fact its a Thatcherite’s wet dream? Why is Iceland being paraded by the occupy movement as an example of how things should be done?

I don’t know. My theory, born out by the names of those who seem to be the sources of the biggest myths, is that there is a group of Icelanders who are blatantly lying to foreigners.

Possibly they are doing this to balm their wounded nationalistic pride, have convinced themselves that it’s true and that Iceland really is great and unique. Possibly its because they see profit in lying to gullible foreigners. The latter was a national sport during the banking bubble and has been a standard Icelandic tactic throughout the ages, but I can’t rule out the role of idiotic nationalism in this nonsense.

I don’t know. The only thing I know is that you are being lied to and that Icelanders are very good at lying to themselves. If they weren’t, we wouldn’t be in this mess.


~ snip ~

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Response to alp227 (Original post)

Tue May 28, 2013, 12:40 PM

173. I've got a better idea. Why don't they just enforce their laws against porn like we do?

 

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Response to KamaAina (Reply #173)

Tue May 28, 2013, 07:16 PM

182. Because they're talking about material containing adults.

Which is a completely different thing.
This is the DU member formerly known as Warren DeMontague.

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Response to alp227 (Original post)

Tue May 28, 2013, 03:32 PM

177. Ban porn, force people into 2 years of mandatory labor, and sanitize the English language...

 

to ensure no one's feelings are hurt with gender-specific language.

Some of you people are just barrels of fun at parties, I bet.

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Response to alp227 (Original post)

Tue May 28, 2013, 03:43 PM

178. Why is there this unusual belief that regulating porn

has anything to do with consenting adult sexual choices?

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Response to MattBaggins (Reply #178)

Tue May 28, 2013, 07:13 PM

181. Because if consenting adults fuck in front of a camera and other consenting adults watch it

What else would you call it?
This is the DU member formerly known as Warren DeMontague.

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #181)

Tue May 28, 2013, 08:20 PM

183. If you make videos of cars being repaired

and regulate the production and sale of the videos are you regulating how cars are repaired?

I thought not.

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Response to MattBaggins (Reply #183)

Tue May 28, 2013, 08:55 PM

184. Well then I guess you've made a compelling case, there, for censoring porn.

Or not.

People get off watching other people naked or having sex. That getting off is, itself, a form of sex.

If everyone is a consenting adult, why so concerned about how they get their jollies?
This is the DU member formerly known as Warren DeMontague.

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