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Sun May 26, 2013, 02:59 PM

This would end most, if not all, wars.

http://www.constitutionfacts.com/us-constitution-amendments/proposed-amendments/


In 1916, a proposed amendment to the Constitution read that all acts of war should be put to a national vote. Anyone voting yes would have to register as a volunteer for service in the United States Army.


Also:

1876: the forbidding of religious leaders from occupying a governmental office or receiving federal funding

1933: an attempt to limit the personal wealth to $1 million


Check it out for interesting reading.

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Reply This would end most, if not all, wars. (Original post)
zeos3 May 2013 OP
gateley May 2013 #1
ismnotwasm May 2013 #2
Buzz Clik May 2013 #3
dumbcat May 2013 #16
Scootaloo May 2013 #20
dumbcat May 2013 #21
siligut May 2013 #40
dumbcat May 2013 #44
siligut May 2013 #45
Blanks May 2013 #39
JayhawkSD May 2013 #41
Scootaloo May 2013 #49
JayhawkSD May 2013 #67
gtar100 May 2013 #46
NutmegYankee May 2013 #48
Chaco Dundee May 2013 #50
zeos3 May 2013 #59
arcane1 May 2013 #4
oldhippie May 2013 #17
arcane1 May 2013 #22
loyalsister May 2013 #27
Donald Ian Rankin May 2013 #5
Politicalboi May 2013 #8
AnotherMcIntosh May 2013 #51
BrotherIvan May 2013 #31
leftyohiolib May 2013 #42
Donald Ian Rankin May 2013 #47
Pterodactyl May 2013 #54
leftyohiolib May 2013 #55
SheilaT May 2013 #6
awoke_in_2003 May 2013 #9
SheilaT May 2013 #13
kentauros May 2013 #33
Manifestor_of_Light May 2013 #52
Kath1 May 2013 #36
Initech May 2013 #7
oldhippie May 2013 #19
dumbcat May 2013 #23
oldhippie May 2013 #24
hack89 May 2013 #56
BobbyBoring May 2013 #10
zeos3 May 2013 #58
sulphurdunn May 2013 #11
zeos3 May 2013 #60
sulphurdunn May 2013 #66
Buzz Clik May 2013 #12
RC May 2013 #29
Buzz Clik May 2013 #30
Art_from_Ark May 2013 #32
zeos3 May 2013 #61
Swede Atlanta May 2013 #14
jeff47 May 2013 #28
chervilant May 2013 #35
mountain grammy May 2013 #15
hog May 2013 #18
lovemydog May 2013 #26
mountain grammy May 2013 #37
lovemydog May 2013 #25
zeos3 May 2013 #62
Lady Freedom Returns May 2013 #34
zeos3 May 2013 #64
Nevernose May 2013 #38
JayhawkSD May 2013 #43
Spitfire of ATJ May 2013 #53
erpowers May 2013 #57
zeos3 May 2013 #65
arely staircase May 2013 #63

Response to zeos3 (Original post)

Sun May 26, 2013, 03:04 PM

1. No wonder it didn't make it -- how could war mongers profit?!?!?!

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Response to zeos3 (Original post)

Sun May 26, 2013, 03:10 PM

2. Wow

Very interesting, thanks for posting

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Response to zeos3 (Original post)

Sun May 26, 2013, 03:22 PM

3. Americans have never, ever voted for something really stupid or contrary to their best interests.

 

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Response to Buzz Clik (Reply #3)

Sun May 26, 2013, 04:56 PM

16. Prohibition?

I thought that was pretty stupid and contrary to their best interests.

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Response to dumbcat (Reply #16)

Sun May 26, 2013, 05:11 PM

20. It wasn't

 

It was a law outlawing a substance that is - very consistently - the most harmful to human health and social fabric. It was actually a damn good idea from the viewpoint of a national interest. However, it was very naive - the idea of a black market appearing doesn't seem to have crossed the minds of anyone. The crime to support that market and the measures to enforce the law ended up causing almost as many problems as legal alcohol did - and at greater cost to taxpayers.

The problem is in the "total ban" aspect of it. Had some sort of market been preserved - even if only a government-run dispensary - the black market would have been undercut and the measure would have been more successful.

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #20)

Sun May 26, 2013, 05:23 PM

21. Sounds stupid to me

However, it was very na´ve - the idea of a black market appearing doesn't seem to have crossed the minds of anyone. The crime to support that market and the measures to enforce the law ended up causing almost as many problems as legal alcohol did - and at greater cost to taxpayers.


I don't know if we can equate na´ve with stupid, but it seems pretty close.

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Response to dumbcat (Reply #21)

Mon May 27, 2013, 10:36 AM

40. Buzz Clik was being sarcastic

This was said in sarcasm: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022904937#post3
But the resultant discussion has merit. I can't claim to know either way, but do want to differentiate between stupid and naive, the difference is awareness, the naive person never had the ability to make an informed decision, the stupid person had the information and made a bad decision.

Naive or na´ve
1. Lacking worldly experience and understanding, especially:
a. Simple and guileless; artless: a child with a naive charm.
b. Unsuspecting or credulous: "Students, often bright but naive, betand losesubstantial sums of money on sporting events" (Tim Layden).
2. Showing or characterized by a lack of sophistication and critical judgment: "this extravagance of metaphors, with its naive bombast" (H.L. Mencken).
One who is artless, credulous, or uncritical.

Stupid
1. Slow to learn or understand; obtuse.
2. Tending to make poor decisions or careless mistakes.
3. Marked by a lack of intelligence or care; foolish or careless: a stupid mistake.
4. Dazed, stunned, or stupefied.
5. Pointless; worthless: a stupid job.

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Response to siligut (Reply #40)

Mon May 27, 2013, 11:06 AM

44. Thank you for that.

I see the distinction.

But I would like to think that our congress people and state legislators were not na´ve about such matters as our liberty and society. But then again, I wish for a lot of things that probably are not realistic. So maybe I am na´ve?

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Response to dumbcat (Reply #44)

Mon May 27, 2013, 11:32 AM

45. Our RW politicians are being led down the garden path

They believe they will be among the selected elite when the proles are made to obey or die.

Wishful or hopeful are words that depend upon things outside of carefully laid plans.

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #20)

Mon May 27, 2013, 10:36 AM

39. It ended the prospect of alcohol as an alternative fuel.

That's a good thing... Right?

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #20)

Mon May 27, 2013, 10:46 AM

41. " a substance that is - very consistently - the most harmful to human health and social fabric."

 

Actually, nine of ten people consume alcohol with no harm to society at all. The one of ten who cannot control themselves do a great deal of harmn, admittedly, but the principle of allowing the actions of the minority to dictate for the majority is the opposite of democracy.

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Response to JayhawkSD (Reply #41)

Mon May 27, 2013, 01:34 PM

49. And yet it still causes more harm than any other substance

 

Perhaps simply due to sheer volume being consumed, but still.

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #49)

Wed May 29, 2013, 08:39 PM

67. Disregard actual statistics

 

Fewer than 30% of all motor vehicle deaths are caused by alcohol.

Driving at illegal speeds on the freeway causes more harm than alcohol does, so perhaps we should ban automobiles.

Yes, alcohol abuse is a major problem, and I have the greatest admiration for organizations such as MADD, but hyperbole and demonization simply serves no useful purpose.

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #20)

Mon May 27, 2013, 12:59 PM

46. Reminds me of today's war on drugs.

We've created a horrific black market simply by making drugs illegal. They call them "controlled substances" but control is the last thing we have over them.

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #20)

Mon May 27, 2013, 01:33 PM

48. It was cultural genocide

And it obliterated the German culture in communities from Pennsylvania to the Midwest.

I hope those who supported prohibition burn in hell.

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Response to Buzz Clik (Reply #3)

Mon May 27, 2013, 01:38 PM

50. true but

I agree with the voting record,but enabling is another story.

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Response to Buzz Clik (Reply #3)

Mon May 27, 2013, 03:53 PM

59. Very nice...

The sarcasm is strong with you. Well done.

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Response to zeos3 (Original post)

Sun May 26, 2013, 03:24 PM

4. 1971: American citizens should have the alienable right to an environment free of pollution.

 

That one would sure come in handy now.

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Response to arcane1 (Reply #4)

Sun May 26, 2013, 05:00 PM

17. I think inalienable rights are better ....

 

.... but that's just me.

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Response to oldhippie (Reply #17)

Sun May 26, 2013, 05:25 PM

22. Indeed. I wonder if that was how it was written in the original attempt

 

or a typo on the webpage

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Response to arcane1 (Reply #4)

Sun May 26, 2013, 05:59 PM

27. Sounds good in theory

But, how is "pollution" defined? Some consider excessive noise and odor from farms pollution. And, I'm sure people could get creative with coming up with others.

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Response to zeos3 (Original post)

Sun May 26, 2013, 03:26 PM

5. Including world war 2, which would mean I wouldn't be here, so no thanks.

Ban conscription, and keep the army volunteer-only.

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Response to Donald Ian Rankin (Reply #5)

Sun May 26, 2013, 03:58 PM

8. A lot of men signed up after Pearl Harbor

 

And a lot of people would have voted to go to war, so you would probably still be here had it been the case. Anyone who didn't vote for war after Pearl Harbor would have been looked at as a un-American.

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Response to Politicalboi (Reply #8)

Mon May 27, 2013, 01:50 PM

51. John Wayne didn't.

 

Although he liked to dress up in the uniforms.

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Response to Donald Ian Rankin (Reply #5)

Mon May 27, 2013, 12:43 AM

31. I would gladly volunteer to not be here if it meant the end of war.

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Response to Donald Ian Rankin (Reply #5)

Mon May 27, 2013, 10:51 AM

42. 'I wouldn't be here" how can u know that?

 

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Response to leftyohiolib (Reply #42)

Mon May 27, 2013, 01:20 PM

47. I'm Jewish, and live in Europe.

Actually I exaggerate slightly - to be more precise, I live in the UK, and I think it probable that even if the US had stayed out of the war Operation Sealion would not have succeeded. But I hope the point is clear?

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Response to Donald Ian Rankin (Reply #47)

Mon May 27, 2013, 02:43 PM

54. Excellent point!

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Response to Donald Ian Rankin (Reply #47)

Mon May 27, 2013, 02:43 PM

55. well if the 2 people that comprise your parents didnt meet that doesnt mean you wouldnt be here

 

you father now would have met someone and so would the woman who is now your mother. you would still would have been born you just have no way of knowinf where you'd be right now anyway that's knda what i meant

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Response to zeos3 (Original post)

Sun May 26, 2013, 03:43 PM

6. Perhaps a better solution would be to put me in charge of wars.

 

I'd host a war, but no one would show up. I've long since stopped trying to have parties, because no one ever showed up.
It was quite strange, but if only our Department of Peace would contact me, really, all wars would come to a screeching halt.

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Response to SheilaT (Reply #6)

Sun May 26, 2013, 04:13 PM

9. Where are you?...

 

If you were close I would come say hi, if invited

On edit: with the wife, of course. Don't want to sound creepy.

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Response to awoke_in_2003 (Reply #9)

Sun May 26, 2013, 04:31 PM

13. I'm in Santa Fe.

 

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Response to SheilaT (Reply #6)

Mon May 27, 2013, 01:08 AM

33. Oh, I know that feeling all too well!

(at myself, because it's so true!)

Although, we couldn't have a cabinet made of anyone but people like us, because then even the cabinet would never meet

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Response to kentauros (Reply #33)

Mon May 27, 2013, 02:02 PM

52. You too?

That old line: What if they gave a war and nobody came??

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Response to SheilaT (Reply #6)

Mon May 27, 2013, 07:01 AM

36. Then let me be the first to nominate you to be in charge of all wars!

For peace, of course!

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Response to zeos3 (Original post)

Sun May 26, 2013, 03:51 PM

7. I love that amendment about putting war to a national vote.

Most of the people who would be for wars would be military contractors, NRA types, and fake patriots like Ted Nugent. And under this amendment they'd have to serve.

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Response to Initech (Reply #7)

Sun May 26, 2013, 05:05 PM

19. A National vote would be interesting, as I don't believe we ever had one .....

 

I'm not aware of there ever having been a National vote on anything. All elections I am aware of are run by states or local governments. Even our vote for President is actually a state vote for a slate of Electors.

Not saying it couldn't be done, but it seems some new mechanism would be needed.

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Response to oldhippie (Reply #19)

Sun May 26, 2013, 05:31 PM

23. Wouldn't the Federal Election Commission do that?

Don't they run national elections?

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Response to dumbcat (Reply #23)

Sun May 26, 2013, 05:35 PM

24. Nope .......

 

Doesn't look like it.

Official duties

Although the Commission's name implies broad authority over U.S. elections, in fact its role is limited to the administration of federal campaign finance laws. It enforces limitations and prohibitions on contributions and expenditures, investigates and prosecutes violations (investigations are typically initiated by complaints from other candidates, parties, "watchdog groups," and the public), audits a limited number of campaigns and organizations for compliance, and administers the presidential campaign fund, which provides public funds to candidates for president and nominating conventions.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Election_Commission


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Response to dumbcat (Reply #23)

Mon May 27, 2013, 03:11 PM

56. There is no such thing as a "national" election

rather there are 50 individual state elections.

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Response to zeos3 (Original post)

Sun May 26, 2013, 04:14 PM

10. I like this one

1894: acknowledging that the Constitution recognizes God and Jesus Christ as the supreme authorities in human affairs.

Might get passed today!

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Response to BobbyBoring (Reply #10)

Mon May 27, 2013, 03:49 PM

58. They can't all be gems...

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Response to zeos3 (Original post)

Sun May 26, 2013, 04:20 PM

11. 2013 is still a good

 

time to limit personal net income to $1 million. Anyone who can't make do with that can fuck off. And yes, one can only hope that the "job creators" will lose the incentive to bless us with manna from their corporatist heaven.

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Response to sulphurdunn (Reply #11)

Mon May 27, 2013, 03:57 PM

60. Let's even bump it up

to whatever that amount would be in today's dollars. I think it would go a long way in correcting the extreme income/wealth inequality we have now.

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Response to zeos3 (Reply #60)

Mon May 27, 2013, 04:15 PM

66. That would be about $18 million

 

in today's dollars. What say we compromise and go for $10 million?

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Response to zeos3 (Original post)

Sun May 26, 2013, 04:21 PM

12. Do keep in mind we voted in GW Bush two times.

 

Why would this end any wars?

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Response to Buzz Clik (Reply #12)

Sun May 26, 2013, 06:30 PM

29. Actually, he wasn't.

 

He was installed by the Supreme Court the first time, with suspicious voting and vote totals both times.

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Response to RC (Reply #29)

Sun May 26, 2013, 09:03 PM

30. ... and we want the same system to start wars.

 

Really, really bad idea.

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Response to RC (Reply #29)

Mon May 27, 2013, 01:00 AM

32. And don't forget,

Al Gore won 500,000+ popular votes more than bu$h. *We* most definitely did NOT vote in George bu$h.

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Response to Buzz Clik (Reply #12)

Mon May 27, 2013, 04:00 PM

61. I hear you.

It does make me nervous to put it to a vote among a general public that is not well informed and easily mislead.

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Response to zeos3 (Original post)

Sun May 26, 2013, 04:32 PM

14. Very interesting indeed....

 

With respect to the 1916 proposal - that is probably not workable in the current situation where we have "undeclared" wars with conflicts that are not between nation states but between one or more nation states and various non-state actors. But what I would suggest is that immediately upon a vote in favor of such "wars", all members of Congress voting in the affirmative are immediately placed on active duty, regardless of age or sex. Immediately, the family members of all such members of Congress (unfortunately this would not pass constitutional muster) would be enlisted in the military (not as officers).

The 1876 proposal is patently unconstitutional. While you cannot make religious belief or affiliation a requirement for public service, you cannot prohibit someone in such service from public office. The rub here is that these individuals' behavior while public service is often too tightly governed or directed by their religious beliefs.

The 1933 proposal was clearly an attempt to stick it in the eye of those who had, despite the Great Depression, managed to amass or maintain relatively huge fortunes. I am not opposed to people making lots of money. I am opposed to them doing so by avoiding reasonable, legitimate taxes, treating their employees (on-shore and offshore) as chattel and treating the environment as if it was there as their toilet.

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Response to Swede Atlanta (Reply #14)

Sun May 26, 2013, 06:06 PM

28. Um...those are constitutional amendments

So the 1876 proposal would be constitutional. Because it would be part of the Constitution.

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Response to Swede Atlanta (Reply #14)

Mon May 27, 2013, 06:56 AM

35. hmm...

I am not opposed to people making lots of money.


Therein lies the rub: in our closed system of limited resources, people can amass wealth *only* to the detriment of others.

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Response to zeos3 (Original post)

Sun May 26, 2013, 04:52 PM

15. The ERA not on the list.. came so close, then the stupid Americans took over.

One of the big disappointments in my lifetime.

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Response to zeos3 (Original post)

Sun May 26, 2013, 05:01 PM

18. peace cure

 

I always thought the best way to keep the peace would be for a person to be required to get his/her mother's permission before going to war.

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Response to hog (Reply #18)

Sun May 26, 2013, 05:58 PM

26. Great point

Welcome here hog. Have fun!

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Response to hog (Reply #18)

Mon May 27, 2013, 09:58 AM

37. Ha, good one! It oughtta be a law! When my son enlisted I did not give my permission

but he went anyway. He served on the USS Wisconsin during the Bush/Iraq War I, and, I'm proud of him, but, if we had a do over, I still wouldn't give my permission.
Welcome to DU.

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Response to zeos3 (Original post)

Sun May 26, 2013, 05:57 PM

25. I support all three of those

now. On the third one I'd be generous & adjust to inflation. If anyone initiates it I'll support it! There have been many smart community oriented people in our past and I know there continue to be now. Thanks for sharing this amazing fact.

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Response to lovemydog (Reply #25)

Mon May 27, 2013, 04:04 PM

62. Cheers!

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Response to zeos3 (Original post)

Mon May 27, 2013, 01:34 AM

34. The first one would mean the end of the secret ballot.

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Response to Lady Freedom Returns (Reply #34)

Mon May 27, 2013, 04:06 PM

64. Good point.

I didn't think of that. I guess I was assuming a specific vote on the war, seperate from regular elections.

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Response to zeos3 (Original post)

Mon May 27, 2013, 10:02 AM

38. To paraphrase All Quiet on the Western Front:

Wars can be declared, but the only people allowed to fight in them are politicians and generals. We put them in an arena with clubs, sell tickets and popcorn.

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Response to zeos3 (Original post)

Mon May 27, 2013, 11:04 AM

43. Well, they sound good, but...

 

"In 1916, a proposed amendment to the Constitution read that all acts of war should be put to a national vote. Anyone voting yes would have to register as a volunteer for service in the United States Army."

Direct democracy has never been known to work, which is why the founders created a representative democracy. California's version of direct democracy resulted in 80% of "propositions" calling for government spending being passed, while 70% of those calling for taxation failed, and drove California into the brink of bankruptcy for years. That is beginning to reverse itself under Brown, but could be temporary.

Not to mention that with a secret ballot, how do you enforce the part that requires volunteering for military service if one votes in favor of war?

"1876: the forbidding of religious leaders from occupying a governmental office or receiving federal funding "

The constitution forbids any religious test for any office in this nation. There was at one point a law banning federal funding for religious organizations, but George Bush voided that with his "Office of Faith-Based Initiatives," or something like that and Obama continued the process after he was elected.

"1933: an attempt to limit the personal wealth to $1 million "

Limiting personal wealth? You have to be kidding. Aside from the utter impossibility of enforcement, Karl Marx would be giddy withy delight.

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Response to zeos3 (Original post)

Mon May 27, 2013, 02:10 PM

53. These days it would be an army of 70+.

 

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Response to zeos3 (Original post)

Mon May 27, 2013, 03:12 PM

57. My Problem With That Amendment

The war by national vote seems to me like one of those ideas that when you first hear about it it sounds good, but then when you think about it it does not sound as good. I realize that if you oppose war, having a situation where it takes a long time to start a war is a good thing. However, having a national vote in order to go to war has its own problems. If there was ever a Pearl Harbor type attack a national election would have to be called. Then the nation would have to pay to have the election. Beyond the cost of the election would be the time it would take in order to schedule an election. Instead of taking days for either Congress to declare war, or for the President to deploy troops we would have to wait at least weeks in order to organize and hold an election. In addition, what would you do with the people who did not vote? Send them to war just to punish them for not voting?

Another problem is personnel. It seems the military has been having enough trouble with people who willingly signed up for the military and then upon being sent to war decided they do not like the military. What would you do with the people who voted for the war, but do not want to fight the war? Yes, you can force those people to join the military, but you cannot force them to do their job, or do their job well. So, you could end up in a situation in which a number of people who are forced to join the military perform poorly in order to be kicked out of the military. At that point the military is faced with a major decision; keep poorly performing people in the military and let them cause problems for the military because they(military leadership) do not want to let those people off the hook, or cut their loses and kick the poor performing people out. So, at least in theory someone could vote for war and still not go to war by performing poorly.

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Response to erpowers (Reply #57)

Mon May 27, 2013, 04:08 PM

65. Very insightful.

Thanks for the reply.

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Response to zeos3 (Original post)

Mon May 27, 2013, 04:06 PM

63. only the dead have seen the end of war

plato

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