General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsWhy would anybody who isn't a right-wing greedhead WANT OWS gone?
Clearly, if OWS and their influence were to totally vanish, there'd be nobody out there prepared to step up with any BETTER ideas or any better strategy.
Also, there's no reason to think a non-OWS, "leader-based" Left would still be radical at all or would have any more effectiveness. And all the "leader" does, in the vast majority of cases, is to water the program and the message down to nothing. That approach is doomed to failure, as is the insistence of having a single "media" face to alternative politics and economics. The "face" always gets co-opted and ends up deciding that the status quo is peachy keen after all...after which, the "face" ends up hanging out with Hillary in Davos.
If you disagreed with some of what OWS did, fine, offer critiques, propose a more detailed program, great, get it out there somehow. But remember...in early 2010, OWS was the ONLY group with an anti-corporate, anti-greed message that anybody anywhere was listening to-the only one that anybody outside the Left "chorus" was listening to.
Get rid of any sign that OWS was ever here, and we'd have no Left at all. OWS emerged because nothing else at all was working and nothing else at all was getting a widespread hearing for any progressive alternative to the status quo. Nobody else out there on the Left had anything going that mattered.
So don't wish for something that can't do the Left any possible good.
Without the "controversial" attention-seeking tactics OWS was using, we didn't have anything. And we'll go all the way back to that if those of you who hate on OWS get your way and banish it to the historical dustbin.
All "respectability" ever leads to is dilution and defeat.
= new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight:
NoneDon't highlight anything
5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
MotherPetrie
(3,145 posts)
msongs
(73,752 posts)dkf
(37,305 posts)If people believe corporations are the problem there should be an alternative structure that can outdo capitalism but work alongside it and within it. If there is a humanity based solution that can work throughout the country providing jobs and funds for all who wish to participate I wouldn't mind seeing how this could work.
Something like OWS could be the solution but they are too full of their lack of leadership to ever do anything big or even explain their purpose.
I thought it was really depressing to see all those people in solidarity accomplishing nothing except for griping about the current situation. Why wouldn't a population that size at least be able to put together their collective power to do SOMETHING TANGIBLE?
At least they could have done civic projects.
The only evidence I saw of OWS were tents of people not doing much demanding that others provide for them. "We are not leaving until the city provides affordable housing" said the woman who came from Chicago but never found a job and is living on unemployment. She was on TV upset they were being moved off the sidewalk since people in wheelchairs were complaining that OWS was blocking their path and they were being forced to ride close to the curb and almost into the road.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)The instinct of any "leader" is pretty much always "dilute the message for short-term gain".
OWS "leaders" in suits sounding "reassuring" aren't going to put forth any message that is any real challenge to the status quo. Leaders never challenge the status quo at all.
dkf
(37,305 posts)Why would anyone jump into a whole new way of living based on the idea that people will be more equal? More equally poor and desperate is probably the truth.
You want me to eschew my job working for a corporation so I can join you in this "better" way of life? Are these people a bunch of yahoos or serious individuals that can make good collective decisions if they don't have an excellent and wise leader.
Please don't put me with a bunch that only wants to be taken care of. If everyone is like that goodness they will all starve. Rather let me see a crew that will demand efforts of all so we can outdo those they criticize. That is what it takes to grow.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)But that's a case for strengthening OWS, not jeering at it and wishing it dead.
Those models are never going to emerge from the minds of those who using "mainstream" tactics, because if you're mainstream, you wouldn't see the need for any alternative.
You asked me about giving up your corporate job? Well, at some point in the not-so-distant future, that corporation will just decide that you're expendable and take it away all without you HAVING to quit. Reality will drive more and more people in to dissent and various forms of rebellion.
Oh, and that "people who just want to be taken care of" line was a cheap shot. Almost nobody wants to "just be taken care of". What a lot of people do want is a way of life that doesn't treat people as expendable, doesn't crush their dreams and their spirits, and doesn't deny them the chance to take care of themselves(something that doesn't just mean feeding and housing yourself, btw, but being able to tend the fire of your spirit).
Most are demanding effort, of themselves and each other. And most just want the chance to MAKE the effort(which you really can't in a market system)of helping to reshape life for the better for all.
In any case, those who usually emerge as "leaders" in the existing spectrum of politics aren't interested in ANY of the above. Leaders usually just want either votes or money from those they see as "followers" in exchange for...well, giving those followers next to nothing, because it's silly, as the "leaders" see it, for the "followers" to think their effort and their support should entitle them to much of anything.
dkf
(37,305 posts)As individuals we would love the easy life where all we do is enjoy but that doesn't work if you want an innovative and productive society.
If we want to keep our standard of living, we need to outdo the competition. That means working harder and/or smarter than the rest. Can OWS get us there? Maybe if they were interested in harnessing collective abilities to share information like an open source community and took it to the nth degree. To me that is the best example of how a better system could work and improve on capitalism. But protesting against banks and capitalism...ugh. What an exercise in utter futility.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)(whatever productivity means, and to my mind it pretty much means "letting the boss screw us even more for less money"
is to base life primarily on either greed or fear of impoverishment.
Why not build a society and a world in which innovation is driven by natural human creativity? By the simple wish to make life better?
By motivations that make us better rather than worse.
And yes, a lot of people want to "win the lottery". I've wanted to be rich myself from time to time(wanting other people to be rich, in all the senses rather than just material enhancement, as well). It's fun to dream of having pretty things. But life needs to be more than that. If getting rich was enough, rich people wouldn't frequently replace their spouses(or cheat on them before the replacement on a regular basis)abuse substances, and play "judicial chicken" by breaking as many laws regarding the ways they get rich as possible.
Your notion of "beating the competition" basically means embracing every aspect of the status quo. It means continuing the "race to the bottom", continuing to pit country against country, worker against worker. It's war by economic means and all it ends up doing in the end is immiserating the many while exalting the arrogant few.
If somebody was coming even close to creating a form of humane "free market" life, that would be one thing. But that never really seems to happen. Good luck if you can create that, but somehow I don't see the making of a world with life-affirming as opposed to life-crushing values as the primary objective of whatever corporation you work for(though I'd be happy to have them prove me wrong about that).
We need a world in which everyone has some kind of democratic say about the real decisions, the economic, fiscal and yes military decisions that affect us all. We need a way to give the majority of the planet a way to say "NO!" to the 1% and yes to their own dreams.
In the end, the human race wants to be better than the status quo, and it could make something better if given the chance.
dkf
(37,305 posts)Funny thing is the rest of the world has only begun to feel the fire of success and an aspirational lifestyle. In a way that is why our situation is getting worse, because they are hungrier than we are.
They aren't going to lay down because we decide we don't want to compete any more and expect everyone to share, when for all these years we have been over consuming our share of the world's resources.
We either dominate to keep our piggy ways alive, or we revert back to the mean and join the rest of the world.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)Last edited Thu May 30, 2013, 09:35 PM - Edit history (1)
to preserve any humane or progressive values at all. Why on earth would someone who posts on a supposedly progressive talkboard want to guarantee us a future that would turn this country into a giant Ayn Rand theme park?
And I'm not so sure that giving up "our piggy ways"
btw, just because you might be piggy, don't assume everyone else here is, buddy)and "join(ing) the rest of the world" would be such a bad thing. We've damaged a lot of that world by forcing our ultra-competitive values on it.
We have been overconsuming, but your approach would just have us overconsume even more. It isn't possible to "compete" economically with other countries and, at the same time, create a society with life-affirming, humane, and truly democratic(which must also mean truly egalitarian)values.
It's more important to work for a world that sustains us all that it is to try to "win". "Winning" in a global economic contest can only have ugly consequences. It can't free anyone, it can't lift anyone out of hardship, and it can't possibly produce anything a decent person would call "greatness". "Winning" means acting like the U.S. during the McKinley Administration.
Yes, more people globally have become "aspirational", but even more have come to the realization that such "aspirations" are threatening the survival of the planet. I'd rather be on the side of those who are "getting it" than those who are "getting and spending".
And as to "Asians"
Asia was filled with various sorts of revolutions throughout the 20th century, so you can't assume that THEY won't ever get off the obsessively money-grubbing path. It's entirely possible that the spectacle of billionaires with Communist Party memberships will cause a new, and this time humane and democratic revolution in China, which could easily spread to other places there. Asians aren't any more inherently masochistic than any other peoples.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)more reliable sources. You 'only saw' what you wanted to see. A majority of the people, which is what supported OWS, saw what this Social Justice movement is all about which is why they had so much support, right from the beginning.
We laughed at Erin Brown and all the poor Faux 'reporters' who tried so hard to diminish the importance of OWS and only made fools of themselves. Your talking points are theirs whether you know it or not and don't have much to do with the reality of a movement that is still in its infancy and still growing, as it continues to be condemned by those who have so much to lose when the people join forces against them. It's such an exciting time and OWS is on the right side of history.
dkf
(37,305 posts)Anonymous seems more of a force, with leanings towards the left and SMART. They are a force to be reckoned with. OWS just seems confused and aimless. I feel bad for people that put their all into Occupy. They are not set up to succeed.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)Global Social Justice movement and growing, and yes, Anonymous is a very strong force which is closely aligned with OWS, or didn't you know that?
socialist_n_TN
(11,481 posts)It seems to me that both groups have areas that they are best at. I'm a commie and I would make a united front with either or both groups if the issue they were concerned with furthered the interests of the working class.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)Whose side are you on?
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)There are lots here in DU that hate Occupy, hate Assauge, hate whistleblowers, hate Pvt Manning, hate protestors, hate all that might dare speak truth to power. They are afraid that those that do will rock their comfortable status quo.
zeemike
(18,998 posts)Change means the possibility of becoming uncomfortable.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)It's the left that is fighting for wall street reform. Look at the Senate. Who is speaking out for the people? It's not the damn Blue Dog Centrists that kiss the REpublican's asses.
BillyRibs
(787 posts)Last edited Mon May 27, 2013, 04:21 PM - Edit history (1)
I see Occupy as one of the most successful movements of the 21st century. In a very short time without any central "leaders" For Anyone to root out and destroy, Bad National news coverage from MSM, and FBI and police co-intel-pro programs in full swing, they managed to changed the national conversation from, How much austerity? to; Why aren't the rich paying their fair share?, Bankers are not the solution, they are the problem. and lets put a leash on wall street. They even mainstreamed the term "Banksters!" Damned successful if you ask me.
It took the entire government apparatus and a few well places 1%ers. Millions of dollars and months of work to Dismantle just the camps. once the smoke clears on this alone a lot of cities will quietly have to shell out a lot of cash. At that point it became apparent to everyone that the Government works for the 1%. and you call this a failure!?
The only thing left to do for occupy was to sue the policemen/women and other personnel as individuals, and not as city agencies. The officers who broke up the camps used their official offices to "persecute the Occupiers", and "deny them their civil rights". That action alone would have the police and the authorities all by the short ones. What cop would try this again if they know they could be dragged into court to be sued? court cost alone would drive most of them into bankruptcy, because as boss Tweed once said we hire half the poor to keep the other half in line. As for "We were just following orders"!? That crap never floats. 
marions ghost
(19,841 posts)yes OWS has had an effect. 
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)on gaping wounds.
dkf
(37,305 posts)
They've been looking like this the entire time. We've made a significant effort to find shelter for our homeless, especially during the APEC conference. Only those who are mentally ill, those who do not wish to live with rules, and occupiers are living like this.
I looked at their site and there are no civic projects I saw, just their demands and announcements of entertainment.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)1.
Occupy Sandy is an organized relief effort created to assist the victims of Hurricane Sandy in the northeastern United States. It is made up of former and present Occupy Wall Street protesters, other members of the Occupy movement, and non-Occupy volunteers.
2.
Join Occupy Homes, dozens of underwater homeowners, and hundreds of allies from across the country as we take action and risk arrest at the Department of Justice.
Bring Justice to Justice Rally: May 20th @ 1pm Gather: Freedom Plaza, 14th Street and Pennsylvania Ave NW – March to Department of Justice @ 1:30pm
3.
Occupy Monsanto:
Margaret A. Hamburg, M.D.
FDA Commissioner
10903 New Hampshire Avenue
Silver Spring, MD 20993
April 29, 2013
Dear Commissioner Hamburg,
We sincerely appreciated the response from your secretary on April 4, concerning your inability to attend our demonstration outside the Center for Food Safety and Applied Nutrition that took place on Monday, April 8....
We write today to request a meeting with you concerning the labeling of genetically engineered foods in America. However, unless consumers are given the opportunity to choose between foods that contain genetically engineered ingredients and those that don’t, the anecdotal evidence will continue to yield further speculation on the dangers of consuming genetically engineered foods.
We look forward to hearing from you.
Sincerely,
Gene Etic
GMO Policy Analyst
Occupy Monsanto
http://occupy-monsanto.com/
(Occupy was heavily involved in the recent world-wide anti-Monsanto demos)
4. etc (smaller anti-forclosure and other actions at the local level). Such as here:
http://www.occupyportlandcalendar.org/
Pelican
(1,156 posts)... and not the 1% of the group doing something positive.
They made that choice and now they have been pushed to the side because of it.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)which is why they've gone more low-key.
but they're still here. still holding meetings, still taking actions.
and as for those people in the picture -- you have no way of knowing what they're doing. and i doubt dkf does either.
Pelican
(1,156 posts)No one, including them most likely, has or had any idea what they were doing.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)dkf
(37,305 posts)
Inkfreak
(1,695 posts)Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)My local Occupy runs a weekly free medical clinic out of a large bus downtown among other things. Read and learn:
http://www.eugeneweekly.com/20130411/lead-story/occupy-medical
marions ghost
(19,841 posts)to the issues--the only way most people can afford.
People with money aren't giving it any traction. 
L0oniX
(31,493 posts)
suffragette
(12,232 posts)By posting about both, you helped me find a great article and video about the song Makana sang to APEC attendees. Loved his Occupy t-shirt!
Sounds like at least on Occupy supporter was active and tried to deliver a message to people in power.
http://www.commondreams.org/newswire/2011/11/13
During the gala dinner, renowned Hawaiian guitarist Makana, who performed at the White House in 2009, opened his suit jacket to reveal a home-made “Occupy with Aloha” T-shirt. Then, instead of playing the expected instrumental background music, he spent almost 45 minutes repeatedly singing his protest ballad released earlier that day. The ballad, called “We Are the Many,” includes lines such as “The lobbyists at Washington do gnaw.... And until they are purged, we won't withdraw,” and ends with the refrain: “We'll occupy the streets, we'll occupy the courts, we'll occupy the offices of you, till you do the bidding of the many, not the few.”
Snip
Makana’s new song is inspired by the Occupy Wall Street movement, which has taken root in cities worldwide. Last Saturday, eight protesters were arrested when they refused to leave the Occupy Honolulu encampment at Thomas Square Park. Occupy Honolulu has joined other groups, including Moana Nui, to protest the APEC meeting, and while Makana performed, hundreds of people protested outside.
After facing large-scale protests in South Korea, Australia, Peru, and Japan, APEC moved this year's event to Hawaii, the most isolated piece of land on earth. In preparation for the meeting, homeless families were moved out of sight and millions of taxpayer dollars were spent on security—including over $700,000 on non-lethal weapons for crowd control. In a bitter twist, the multi-million dollar security plans backfired when a local Hawaiian man was shot and killed by a 27-year-old DC-based federal agent providing security for dignitaries.
cantbeserious
(13,039 posts)eom
socialist_n_TN
(11,481 posts)
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)Those rebels were fighting to defend the true, original program of the Bolshevik Revolution(in which worker control of the workplace was the true Revolution). The USSR was under siege, but it never needed to take control of the factories away from the workers and give it to bourgeois, anti-worker "production experts" none of whose changes were ever good for the workers)and there never needed to be even temporary suppression of dissent.
The workers would have defended the revolution voluntarily from all challenges, but Trotsky didn't believe in the workers. And, if he'd ever ended up leading the USSR, he wouldn't have restored the right to dissent OR workers control of the means of production. All he cared about was keeping the Party in power, whether that led to revolutionary results or not. The Revolution never needed to turn gray and ugly to survive.
And in any case, by crushing the Krondstadt rebels, Trotsky ended up making it impossible to stop Stalin's bloody and essentially White Russian-nationalist takeover. Only those who defended the original values of the Revolution would have backed him against Stalin...none of the apparatchiks, generals or cynical time-servers ever would have.
So I have some issues with Trotsky.
Scuba
(53,475 posts)
MADem
(135,425 posts)I have to agree with your essay entirely. The only thing they agreed on, for the longest time, was "camping."
I thought when some groups got up off their asses and protected homeowners from foreclosure, that was some good, strong symbolism--but don't tell me that someone in that group didn't step up to the plate and, contrary to "OWS rulez" exercise a little of that "Here's what we're gonna do, here's how we're gonna do it" leadership. Groupthink didn't create that effort.
Even the few good, solid, HUGE demos they had were accomplished with UNION leadership (you could kind of tell because of the union signs, and the fact that the unions coordinated the public safety issues with the police, fire, emergency services, etc.).
People are not all created equal in terms of their abilities, and there's nothing wrong with LEADERS. The guy picking his nose in the corner who wants to be told what to do, how to think and where to go, and will otherwise just play with his PSP all day isn't the same as the person with active concerns about issues of poverty and homelessness and an ability to articulate solutions to these problems. One should follow, the other should lead. There's nothing wrong with this and OWS's insistence that everyone/noone "lead" was a big piece of their failure to catch fire. If they'd only had a more formal leadership structure, they would have taken off, kicked ass, and taken names. They had it in their HANDS...and they dropped it.
arely staircase
(12,482 posts)I think OWS is responsible for shining a spotlight on income inequality and the way the wealthy game the system. but then, nothing. it became a case of form over function, and ironically their form was lack of form in a way.
craigmatic
(4,510 posts)to come up with a coherent message or effective tactics to get things done. I don't want to see them gone but a little more organization never hurt anybody. If ever there was a good movement that could use some branding and public relations it's OWS.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)How is a self-entitled group of "professionals" going to be of any use in putting together a real alternative to the status quo.
A limited, "safe" program is never really the route to worthwhile change. All "safety" ever gets is is stuff like the Civil Rights Act of 1957...and "leaders" other than the ones who are now all dead)always tell the rank-and-file never to even try to push past the "partial victory". And then inevitably end up hating the rank-and-file more than they ever fight against the status quo.
We don't need left-wing versions of Rahm Emmanuel.
AllyCat
(18,842 posts)We are all for one, one for all.
Pelican
(1,156 posts)... that got done with no leadership, en masse?
An untold number of things got done with leadership hierarchy... yesterday.
What's the comparison as to why the zombie method is not only equal to leadership but superior?
AllyCat
(18,842 posts)Occupy Sandy was quite helpful. The protests in Madison were huge with no specific leadership (we still have Wanker, but how else do you get 100,000 people in one place?). And look what things get done with leadership that are NOT so good: the CEO in charge of my place of employment is trying to sell us, bust our union, and cut our benefits and pay; they lead us into illegal wars; they completely bilk our seniors and the poor out of their earned benefits.
They're big. They have leaders...but are terrible for a lot of people. Not all led campaigns are good for us.
Occupy is zombies? You haven't seen the modern American then, plopped in front of the teevee watching Bounty Hunter.
Pelican
(1,156 posts)... than the mediocrity of the mob.
Yes, it does have to be "big" in some sense to be important. That's what makes it important.
G_j
(40,569 posts)stopped reading there.
fail
This did tr ash our parks ... so they did leave theor mark on society.
magellan
(13,257 posts)OWS has done a hell of a lot of good. Not only has it brought income inequality to the public conscience, it's also actively helped many thousands of people in need. Those people aren't dismissive of OWS, I can assure you.
Occupy Sandy relief effort puts Occupy Wall Street activists in the spotlight again a year after Zuccotti Park
Rolling Jubilee is an offshoot of OWS that's in the process of buying off $12 Million in debt around the country. Most recently it did this:
Occupy Wall Street group puts 'zombie' debt to rest
eta: They've also formed Occupy OK to help the tornado victims: Oklahoma Urgently Needs Your Support!
Enjoy your stay.
HangOnKids
(4,291 posts)tr ash our parks? Yummy and cogent.
Kingofalldems
(40,277 posts)Shocking.
Niceguy1
(2,467 posts)second, ok WS failed because they failed to connect with everyday Americans.
Scuba
(53,475 posts)Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)"What do you do if you are homeless, uninsured or just plain broke and you’re sick? Where do you go if you do have a home but the waiting list is too long at the clinic or your insurance isn’t good enough to get you the care you need?
On Sundays from noon until 4 pm you can walk up to the former bloodmobile painted red and white and emblazoned “Occupy Medical Mobile Clinic,” that’s parked downtown at the Park Blocks and get anything from a Band-Aid to a prescription for heart medicine. You can also get food, a haircut and proof that someone cares."
http://www.eugeneweekly.com/20130411/lead-story/occupy-medical
Feel free to post articles about the Moderate Centrist Medical Clinic you have in your town!
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)They are only a small part. It's time to choose sides. Whose side do you choose?
moonbeam23
(419 posts)OWS was effective enough and enough of a real potential threat that the PTB took the time and spent the money to completely crush them in a brutal and coordinated operation, along with infiltrating them and of course getting their minions in the corporate media to diss them (when they were not ignoring them)....
And it is unfair to say that they haven't been active since then, when they actually have been doing good things locally, and even "community projects"...the OWS spirit lives on...but it is is clear now that the fascist police state is operating well enough to make it almost impossible to have the same kind of mass marching and campouts that were so effective in the sixties...leaderless movements that work somewhat below the radar may end up being what we are stuck with now...
If the local police had been as militarized back in the days of MLK as they are now, Jim Crow laws would still be in effect...
AllyCat
(18,842 posts)If they were that ineffective, why then was there so much brutality against them and so much effort to crush, well, their effort.
Well said.
marions ghost
(19,841 posts)
L0oniX
(31,493 posts)
hfojvt
(37,573 posts)If I write "OWS has failed" that does not mean I want that to be true, any more than when I write, for about the ten billionth time "the Yankees have won the pennant".
It's an observation, not a wish. Just an observation of the way I see things, not "the way things ought to be" (to coin a phrase)
OWS, it seemed to me was out there with no coherent message at all, except (again, as I see it) the false dichotomy of 1% vs. 99%. (Do I need to explain again why I think it is a false message? Look no further than ATRA. ATRA, the disgusting "compromise" to make most of the Bush tax cuts permanent could be described as "a tax cut for the 99%". Sure, something like $3 trillion of the $3.7 trillion tax cut goes to the bottom 99%. But look a little closer and you find that $700 billion of it goes to the bottom 60% and $1.7 trillion of it goes to the top 19%. The upper part of the 99% gets most of the pie.)
Their other message seemed to be "we want to create a permanent campground in some public parks".
What is the point of that? Who is gonna support that? Not most of the 79%, that was quickly apparent.
The left has nothing else besides OWS?
Well that may be true, but it is quite a sad commentary. The left needs something else, and quickly as the 2014 elections are almost upon us. The media seems to be trying to set up another bloodbath like 2010. We need something better than "occupy" and "we are the 99%" to prevent that.
Dustlawyer
(10,539 posts)I propose that OWS focus 1st on COMPLETE CAMPAIGN FINANCE REFORM (CCFR). If we do not change the legal system of bribery and extortion (do this or we Primary you and give your opponent more money than God), we will be doing what we have always done and get what we always got! Many of our issues would be easily solved if the Special Interests are out of the picture.
catnhatnh
(8,976 posts)...and were this truly their informed and honest opinion:
"I thought it was really depressing to see all those people in solidarity accomplishing nothing except for griping about the current situation. Why wouldn't a population that size at least be able to put together their collective power to do SOMETHING TANGIBLE?
At least they could have done civic projects.",
that would be one thing-but I posted a thread yesterday that was completely about an OWS protester's "civic project" and had others mentioning their many charitable works-and this poster was all over it making the same claim.
In short this poster is being at very least disingenuous. In long many other adjectives could be employed.
See this thread:http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022902741
pinboy3niner
(53,339 posts)He's an inspiration!
catnhatnh
(8,976 posts)That was quite a ride. My most recommended thread in the over 8 years I've been here. He done good and I enjoyed sharing it...
ReRe
(12,189 posts).... remember what the OWS volunteers did up in NYC in the aftermath of Hurricane Sandy? No telling how many lives they saved.
Marr
(20,317 posts)Our party establishment doesn't want to talk about wealth disparity and our rigged economy, because they don't want to fix it-- they want to benefit from it themselves.
As for the peons who side with them... who knows. Some are personality cultists, some just party loyalists, some are paid, etc.
Pelican
(1,156 posts)"respectable and effective" vs "radical and ineffective"
Gosh, what to do.. what to do...
HangOnKids
(4,291 posts)What to do? Why don't you tell us? Really.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)Once you put on the nice suit and learn to politely ask politicians for things, you pretty much give up and settle for crumbs.
If the black Freedom Movement of the 1960's had been "respectable" in your way, we'd still HAVE Jim Crow. That system was only brought down through confrontation, protest, and demand. Congress just did what it was forced to do from below. Respectability gave us the Civil Rights Act of 1957...the one no one remembers because it did nothing that mattered and led to nothing that mattered.
And if the antiwar movement had stayed "respectable", we'd still be bombing Vietnam.
"respectability" is failure nowadays.
starroute
(12,977 posts)Anyone who doesn't get this point needs to read David Graeber's The Democracy Project. The people at the heart of OWS believe that our current system is a sham -- top-down, hierarchical rule masquerading under the guise of electoral democracy. They don't accept hierarchy in their own procedures, aren't interested in dealing with existing hierarchical institutions, and wouldn't dream of endorsing any suggestion that all we need is a slightly more open and accountable hierarchy.
You may or may not agree with that position -- but it's what they are. And suggesting they should turn themselves into something different is like telling an eagle that if it just let you trim its beak and claws a bit, it would make a perfectly acceptable pigeon.
Initech
(108,782 posts)Sen. Walter Sobchak
(8,692 posts)I can see why people didn't really want them around.
catnhatnh
(8,976 posts)...when in fact internet connectivity was vital to their purpose of exposing abuse of power and corruption. As to the charge they were vagrants-well that was just ignorant.
Edited to add: And I think most on DU know exactly who the "people" are who didn't want them around...
Sen. Walter Sobchak
(8,692 posts)iPad's were the only way to tell them apart from a typical vagrant encampment.
Occupy was nothing but a bunch of charlatans with nothing to say and other than rehabilitating the right's favorite dirty hippy memes in the run-up to the election accomplished absolutely nothing.
HangOnKids
(4,291 posts)What deep thought.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)Another one just yesterday. What did you do with your Sunday other than trash talking those who provide healthcare to the poor?
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)You have no reason to hate these people. If it weren't for them, Romney would probably be president and the remnants of the New Deal would have been permanently repealed by now.
People who hated Occupy weren't doing a damn thing to fight the Right. You weren't doing anything yourself. You were just sitting on the sidelines and sniping at those who tried to resist, and telling them that the party had no choice but to cave in to the Right on all issues.
Don't talk to anyone else about self-indulgence.
That's all you've ever engaged in here. Or anywhere else, as far as I can see.\
Sen. Walter Sobchak
(8,692 posts)Because around hear the siting Democrat president, arguably to the left of Clinton is made out to be a gaudy 1970's anti-socialist dictator.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)However, at the end of 2010, he and his administration could fairly have been described as people who weren't exactly trying to STOP the Right, however.
He and his apologists were arguing, essentially(and had been since his swearing-in), that no one should try to take control of the public debate and public agenda away from the Right, and that all we should care about was just re-electing him(the argument Clintonites made all the way up to 1996).
As we have seen, while re-electing the administration was a minor victory, it wasn't ever going to be enough to stop or even slow down the Right. To do that, the notion that large corporations and their CEO's are the natural rulers of life(a notion that Obama clearly accepts, given his rhetoric about large corporations being a good thing)and the notion that those who aren't wealthy should also matter, should also have a real say, and shouldn't be crushed(that is, that the majority of us, including you, Walter, who will never be in the 1% have "a right to the Tree of Life", as the old spiritual puts it).
Occupy has its flaws, and it was never an end to itself, but at the time it rose(late 2010)it was the only meaningful anti-corporate, pro-real democracy voice in American and global life. That voice has to be preserved, for everybody's good, even yours.
And it's a despicable insult to label those in the camps as "vagrants". Most of them were young heroes who made great sacrifices and put themselves at great physical risk to say that the majority of the human race shouldn't be left to rot. What they did took guts, and they were making their stand when comfortable folks like yourself were doing nothing but sniping and arguing for surrender.
Maybe that wasn't you as an individual, but that was the sort of person who talks about the Occupiers in the vicious way that you do.
They fought and fight for you. Did you ever fight for them? For anybody?
Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)
Marrah_G
(28,581 posts)Did you spend much time there?
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)Sen. Walter Sobchak
(8,692 posts)Dick Cheney or Spliff the Bike Courier?
Fire Walk With Me
(38,893 posts)Response to Ken Burch (Original post)
Raine This message was self-deleted by its author.
Fire Walk With Me
(38,893 posts)From their letter to "progressive" "democrat" Jean Quan, "mayor" of Oakland California:
"The protest has been allowed to run its course. Now it’s time to focus on jobs and the economic restoration of our city. It’s time for bold leadership and forceful action, not unending social experimentation. We call upon the Oakland City Council and the Mayor of Oakland to step up and provide cohesive, common sense leadership------before it really is too late."
http://www.indybay.org/uploads/2011/11/08/11.8.11.oakland_letter_fin-mayor.pdf
From here:
"The Oakland Metro Chamber of Commerce has been quite vocal with their mantra of 'OCCUPY OAKLAND ENCAMPMENT MUST GO! OCCUPY OAKLAND ENCAMPMENT MUST GO! OCCUPY OAKLAND ENCAMPMENT MUST GO!' as they twist the arms of elected officials and try to engender popular support for their position. Now today, the Lake Merritt/Uptown District (business) Association, claiming to be a part of the '99%', has piled on, delivering a letter to the Mayor calling for 'forceful action' to end the 'social experimentation' of Occupy Oakland."
http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2011/11/08/18698285.php
Note that during the Occupy Oakland encampment, statistics revealed a 19% drop in crime in the area. Quan and her lackeys knew it, discussed it being bad for their position, and continued to attack Occupy Oakland brutally, nearly killing two peaceful Veterans in the process.
In Los Angeles, they are called ccala.org, the business lobby which is actively working to privatize downtown Los Angeles and beyond. From their website right now:
"The issues that matter to us most impact the entire city. Naturally, our membership includes business leaders from across Los Angeles. We give them access to the policies and people that are shaping the future of Los Angeles and in return, they know CCA is the business organization that gets things done.
CCA PAC Scores Successes at City Hall
The results are in! CCA was the resounding winner in yesterday’s election."
I have posted many articles here regarding cca and their agenda and power from the gentrification attempt upon Skid Row to their private "security" patrols across the downtown area. Corporate cops. Really. No exaggeration. And OccupyLA and Occupy Skid Row's numerous encounters and insights into their direct control of LA city hall (until this week, "democrat" mayor Antonio Villaraigosa, or Mr. Villain).
This includes the LAPD riot against citizens for using water-soluble children's sidewalk chalk at an "artwalk" event. cca cannot bear Occupy and have even used LA Times and local mainstream media to outright LIE about OccupyLA.
The power of the 1% runs deep. Politicians do what they're told or they're manipulated out of effectiveness.
To quote the song, "What's it like in your town?"
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)ReRe
(12,189 posts)... and even one or two in this thread, OWS did just fine, and are still doing good works. And had they not been strong-armed by the Corporate lacky public police, they would still be out there on the streets today. I have an idea they may come back to life this summer. If so, I will be supporting them in any way I can.
byeya
(2,842 posts)...but they are not real Dems. They are RepubliDems, Blue Dogs, DLCers, Third Wayers, Grand Bargainers, Dinos. Snakes in Suits, actually. They like that moola just like the wingers and will sell out the majority of their constituents to get their hands on it and stay in office with their big egos. Just because a person calls himself a Democrat three times doesn't make him one.
Ron Green
(9,870 posts)than I did running (as a Democrat) for State Reresentative last year.
The group still meets, and the word is spreading.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)Ron Green
(9,870 posts)HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)I grew up in Salem and went to college for a couple of years in Monmouth.
Ron Green
(9,870 posts)House District 15.
Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)repeated over and over by the same type of people.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)because McGovern was nominated in '72-even though we now KNOW that ANY other possible Dem nominee that year, Muskie, Humphrey, "Scoop" Jackson, even Teddy The K-would have been doomed to an overwhelming defeat that year simply because of the effectiveness of the Nixon "dirty tricks" machine. Rather than blaming the ugliness and brutality of the opponent, they blame the people in their own party who beat them fair and square in a a legitimate, and for the first time truly democratic, nominating process and who, themselves, bear no responsibility for the fact that the game was rigged from the get-go.
randome
(34,845 posts)Most of the occupiers were in other cities. Most of them occupied public parks, even those in New York where Wall Street is actually located.
And 'Occupy' is hardly a call to arms. It means, literally, "to take or fill up (space, time, etc.)". Hardly an inspiring call to arms.
If any protest is to have an effect, it must do better to stand as a beacon to everyone else. Changing the name of a protest movement that is dedicated to taking up space would be a good start.
What was it Gregory Peck said in 'Mirage'? Something like "If you're not going to stand for something, you're just taking up space."
I think the reverse can be said: "If you're just taking up space, you're not going to stand for something."
[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font]
[hr]
marions ghost
(19,841 posts)Can be used without Wall Street to mean anywhere. It suggests legitimate occupation & replacement.
Filling up space and time--that's we we need to do. To be present.
Nit-picking about a name that has traction now is silly. 
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)You're are a good little soldier.
arely staircase
(12,482 posts)eom
Fire Walk With Me
(38,893 posts)much less do anything about.
In fact, politics and politicians just won't touch the issues we've worked to bring to national attention:
As one people, united, we acknowledge the reality: that the future of the human race requires the cooperation of its members; that our system must protect our rights, and upon corruption of that system, it is up to the individuals to protect their own rights, and those of their neighbors; that a democratic government derives its just power from the people, but corporations do not seek consent to extract wealth from the people and the Earth; and that no true democracy is attainable when the process is determined by economic power. We come to you at a time when corporations, which place profit over people, self-interest over justice, and oppression over equality, run our governments. We have peaceably assembled here, as is our right, to let these facts be known.
They have taken our houses through an illegal foreclosure process, despite not having the original mortgage.
They have taken bailouts from taxpayers with impunity, and continue to give Executives exorbitant bonuses.
They have perpetuated inequality and discrimination in the workplace based on age, the color of one’s skin, sex, gender identity and sexual orientation.
They have poisoned the food supply through negligence, and undermined the farming system through monopolization.
They have profited off of the torture, confinement, and cruel treatment of countless animals, and actively hide these practices.
They have continuously sought to strip employees of the right to negotiate for better pay and safer working conditions.
They have held students hostage with tens of thousands of dollars of debt on education, which is itself a human right.
They have consistently outsourced labor and used that outsourcing as leverage to cut workers’ healthcare and pay.
They have influenced the courts to achieve the same rights as people, with none of the culpability or responsibility.
They have spent millions of dollars on legal teams that look for ways to get them out of contracts in regards to health insurance.
They have sold our privacy as a commodity.
They have used the military and police force to prevent freedom of the press. They have deliberately declined to recall faulty products endangering lives in pursuit of profit.
They determine economic policy, despite the catastrophic failures their policies have produced and continue to produce.
They have donated large sums of money to politicians, who are responsible for regulating them.
They continue to block alternate forms of energy to keep us dependent on oil.
They continue to block generic forms of medicine that could save people’s lives or provide relief in order to protect investments that have already turned a substantial profit.
They have purposely covered up oil spills, accidents, faulty bookkeeping, and inactive ingredients in pursuit of profit.
They purposefully keep people misinformed and fearful through their control of the media.
They have accepted private contracts to murder prisoners even when presented with serious doubts about their guilt.
They have perpetuated colonialism at home and abroad. They have participated in the torture and murder of innocent civilians overseas.
They continue to create weapons of mass destruction in order to receive government contracts. *
To the people of the world,
We, the New York City General Assembly occupying Wall Street in Liberty Square, urge you to assert your power.
Exercise your right to peaceably assemble; occupy public space; create a process to address the problems we face, and generate solutions accessible to everyone.
To all communities that take action and form groups in the spirit of direct democracy, we offer support, documentation, and all of the resources at our disposal.
Join us and make your voices heard!
*These grievances are not all-inclusive.
DECLARATION OF OCCUPATION by the NYC General Assembly
Occupy hasn't forgotten. In fact, we were and are beaten and jailed for standing up and telling everyone about this in a process distinctly resembling part of the FBI's definition of domestic terrorism: the use of force and threat of force to get a targeted group of politically-oriented people to change their behavior.
The problems are still around. So are the politicians willing to destroy the Bill of Rights in order to attempt to silence any bringing them to attention. So we're not going away.
gulliver
(13,985 posts)OWS had one good song in them, and now it is played out. The message did get through, and the infrastructural power centers (religion, business, government, etc.) did adjust their programming. So OWS was not a failure. But it is a has-been.
I think the Internet is actually in the process of solving society's problems. OWS was just one of the ways it works, imo.
patrice
(47,992 posts)great "answer" everyone wants it to be. There are as many damaged people in OWS as there are in the system it fights.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)That's what a lot of folks want...for everything Occupy did to be hidden away and for the rest of us to go back to "respectability"...I.E., to go back to the stuff we know DOESN'T work.
L0oniX
(31,493 posts)sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)
Blanks
(4,835 posts)Is that it doesn't give the opposition a 'hard target'. I watched a documentary on it that was very biased against the movement. The documentary showed Michael Moore give a speech and then it tore him down. It showed a union rep, then it tore him down.
Just like any organization with leaders that oppose 'the monied', if there was a leader the organization would spend more time defending its leader than taking on issues.
I don't think 'occupy' accomplished as much as others here do, and I can see how the perception of 'a bunch of people just sitting around' could be arrived at. However, the original Boston Tea-Party happened quite a few years before the American revolution, and it takes a little while for disgruntled citizens to decide what it is that they are going to do. I look forward to watching it develop in the years to come. I don't have any problem with people utilizing space that is set aside for sitting around - just sitting around.
It is going to take longer for the 'mission' of the various occupy movements to gel into something that everyone can get behind. The main reason that it will take a while is because it must remain a leaderless movement for the reasons I listed above.
Obviously it has been more effective in some areas than others, but I expect there is a correlation with how badly the places needed intervention and how effective the intervention was. Regardless, if some techniques have been used successfully in one place; the techniques can be mimicked in other places.
I hope occupy keeps fighting the fight.
99Forever
(14,524 posts)... like a bunch of the corporate owned DINOs that infest our entire government, all the way to the top.
felix_numinous
(5,198 posts)and infiltration by RW (cointelpro) dividing and conquering the left as per usual.
It is the left's Achilles heel, that we can so easily be psyched out from people who appear to be one of us but who are obviously not.
I have watched this happen since the 60s, hoping that at some point we will recognize and become wise to these tactics.
raouldukelives
(5,178 posts)
Earth_First
(14,910 posts)They've got theirs. Yours?
Meh.
Pragdem
(233 posts)Their buying of debt and cancelling it was absolutely creative and heartwarming. The volunteers during Hurricane Sandy and other disasters deserve more recognition for their hard work. The amount of meals they passed out was astonishing.
That's the portion of OWS I admire.
Not the Abe from Mad Men types that took over after the unions and other liberal groups left.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)Fire Walk With Me
(38,893 posts)
marmar
(79,739 posts)as Chris Hedges nails it, better than anyone:
In a traditional democracy, the liberal class functions as a safety valve. It makes piecemeal and incremental reform possible. It offers hope for change and proposes gradual steps toward greater equality. It endows the state and the mechanisms of power with virtue. It also serves as an attack dog that discredits radical social movements, making the liberal class a useful component within the power elite.
But the assault by the corporate state on the democratic state has claimed the liberal class as one of its victims. Corporate power forgot that the liberal class, when it functions, gives legitimacy to the power elite. And reducing the liberal class to courtiers or mandarins, who have nothing to offer but empty rhetoric, shuts off this safety valve and forces discontent to find other outlets that often end in violence. The inability of the liberal class to acknowledge that corporations have wrested power from the hands of citizens, that the Constitution and its guarantees of personal liberty have become irrelevant, and that the phrase consent of the governed is meaningless, has left it speaking and acting in ways that no longer correspond to reality. It has lent its voice to hollow acts of political theater, and the pretense that democratic debate and choice continue to exist.