Gun Deaths Since Newtown Now Surpass Number of Americans Killed in Iraq

[BainsBane]

Last edited Fri May 31, 2013, 05:13 PM - Edit history (1)

I found this quite a shocking fact. Despite the tragedy of foreign war, the true battle is at home, where deaths from gunshot wounds outpace war casualties. How do we end this war on American soil? What responsibility does each of us have to bring this to an end?

The number of gun deaths in the U.S. since the Newtown elementary school massacre has exceeded the total number of U.S. troops killed in the Iraq war.
According to a tally of gun deaths from Slate, the number of people killed since the Dec. 14 shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary is now 4,499. The number of U.S. armed forces killed during the Iraq war was 4,409, according to the Defense Department.

The Slate data comes from crowdsourcing and warns that it is “necessarily incomplete.” Authors of the tally call on readers to submit news stories to @GunDeaths.

This comparison of the five months since the tragedy that redefined the debate for further gun control in this country and the nine-year conflict the U.S. has recently ended is now being used by Americans United for Change, a progressive political group. Already, the group has targeted several Republican lawmakers, including Sen. Rob Portman, R-Ohio, to support background checks, among other gun-control measures.

Republicans successfully stalled gun-control legislation, arguing that further measures would not prevent gun violence but merely stifle the Second Amendment rights of lawful Americans. But Democratic lawmakers and progressive groups have signaled that they will continue this fight.

http://www.nationaljournal.com/nationalsecurity/gun-deaths-since-newtown-now-surpass-number-of-americans-killed-in-iraq-20130530

[intaglio]

1. kick and rec

But you know the haters will be round with their excuses and fraudulent justifications for their view "2nd Amendment Rights".

[BainsBane]

3. Not so far

Pit bulls and Romeo-Juliet romances/ statutory rape have everyone's attention.

[Progressive dog]

2. But mental illness, outlaws with guns, 2nd amendment

Just cosmetic, can't shoot faster with bigger magazine because doing more stuff takes less time cause video, I support gun regulation too (as long as it means I can have more guns more places with any cosmetic features I want), can't pass this cause of all those other gun nuts that vote single issues. I'm really a democrat, don't you know, sometimes I even look up stuff so I can remember stuff like what those damn liberals (whoops I mean we) stand for.

I thought I'd jump in there before the nuts with guns explained this stuff to us.

[billh58]

11. You forgot to talk about

cosmetic gun features such as lug nuts and vice grips...

[Dragonbreathp9d]

4. Link?

[BainsBane]

5. Sorry about that

http://www.nationaljournal.com/nationalsecurity/gun-deaths-since-newtown-now-surpass-number-of-americans-killed-in-iraq-20130530

[Dragonbreathp9d]

6. No worries thanks!

[napkinz]

7. Guns Don't Kill People ...

[Warren DeMontague]

8. That says something, doesn't it.

[BainsBane]

9. It says we have a war on American soil

Really. Another scary stat: More Americans have died from guns since 1968 than in ALL the wars combined, including the Civil War.

[Warren DeMontague]

10. This data would be good- with links- for the GCRA group, in a pinned thread, too.

[BainsBane]

12. I cross posted this OP there

I think the point about the total gun deaths was there a couple of months back. Only the hosts can pin threads. Here are precise numbers from Occupy the NRA.

[Warren DeMontague]

15. I remember the widget for Iraq War Deaths.

It was a powerful, if depressing, reminder of what was going on all day, every day.

Might be something to look into for this.

[hack89]

13. How? Single payer health care with mental health coverage

since 66% of gun deaths are suicides, mental health and suicide prevention programs are low hanging fruit.

[BainsBane]

14. Already covered

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2926257

[hack89]

16. Toss in universal background checks, magazine size limits, crackdown on illegal gun trafficking,

expansion of the ATF - that should also help.

But preventing suicides should be the real priority.

[BainsBane]

17. yes, and background checks would help tremendously

Since guns are BY FAR the most lethal means of suicide.

[hack89]

18. Background checks are irrelevent to sucides.

the demographic most likely to use a gun to commit suicide are white middle aged men. A group which as a whole usually have no problems passing background checks.

[BainsBane]

19. You are not thinking it through

to keep those adjudicated dangerous to themselves from acquiring guns, we need universal background checks.

[hack89]

20. There is no permenent record of a background check

what happens when the person buys a gun and then is adjudicated dangerous to themselves?

Besides - most suicides come as a complete surprise to family and friends. It is seldom due to mental illness. Most suicidal people would have no problem passing a background check.

[BainsBane]

22. There is no permanent record because the gun lobby

is deliberately hysterical about the threat of gun confiscation. Without background checks there is no point even bringing up mental illness. It's an obvious attempt at deflection. The fact is we have a war on American soil, and gun nuts are the enemy.

[Paladin]

23. +1 (nt)

[billh58]

25. +100

Truer words were never spoken.

[hack89]

27. Are you really that lacking in imagination

that you can't consider a way to reduce suicide that doesn't revolve around gun control? What is wrong with a real health care system such that the problem is fixed well before someone reaches for a gun? But that doesn't fit your agenda, does it?

What you really want is registration so that a doctor can take away a patient's gun without due process. I stand with the ACLU on this issue - they oppose it.

[BainsBane]

29. hardly

That was the NRA's proposal. Don't tell me what I want. It's obvious to me that the gun proponents invoking of mental illness is nothing but a distraction to keep the focus off guns.

[hack89]

32. 66% percent of gun deaths are suicides. If it is not a mental health problem

I don't know what is. Instead of helping those people, your solution is to take away their guns. OK.

But then everything is about guns to you, isn't it? Not about people, not about crime, not about poverty and desperation. All about guns.

[Pelican]

30. What exactly are you imagining on this check?

Are you sad... Check yes or no...?

What source is that utilize to show that a person is suicidal at that time?

[BainsBane]

31. If someone is adjudicated a danger to themselves or others

Not just mental illness, but domestic violence. You're going to tell me laws already exist, which I know. The problem is so many guns go through private party sales that aren't subject to background checks.

[Pelican]

35. Mental illness (suicidal depression mostly) make up the vast chunk of gun related deaths...

... as I think we both agree.

I think that in theory I could get behind a magical system that could only be used for gun sales to check for felony status.

I say magical for the following reasons-

1) Any background system open to the public will be abused by employers, ex-spouses, asshole neighbors next door etc.. etc..

2) I don't think the mental community has a solid enough definition of what level of depression is enough to bar someone from owning a weapon. Also, personal biases, both for and against guns, would pervade the system and it would get rigged that way by mental health providers or whoever inputs into the system

3) The legitimate and ever present concern that the slightest move towards gun control along common sense measures will be used as precedent against us and be taken to an extreme. Give an inch and get taken for a mile. This is the main reason no one can do anything about gun control. At all...

[BainsBane]

36. As it stands, even those who have been legally adjudicated dangerous

can acquire guns through private sales. We don't necessarily need new lists, but universal background checks would help keep guns out of the hands of those already adjudicated dangerous. I am not for a single shrink making that determination. There are a lot of lousy psychiatrists around.

[Pelican]

37. I can't think of a system...

.. that doesn't place a burden on either party of private sale and would not be subject to abuse.

Personally, I will take my chances on a felon illegally buying a firearm than having every Joe Snuffy having access to a database of psychological and criminal history on their neighbors.

[BainsBane]

42. Well, that's why we have so many dead

and those records are currently public anyway.

[Pelican]

46. Mental health and criminal background checks are available to anyone?

[napkinz]

21. kick

nt

[dsc]

24. I literally have no earthly idea what it will take to finally pass decent gun control

we had white upper class kids killed by the dozens, nothing. 20 1st graders, nothing. I am beginning to think it would literally take having 10,000 babies mowed down on the 50 yard line at the Super Bowl by terrorists who bought their guns 5 minutes earlier after telling the sellers what they intended to do and even then we would hear 2nd Amendment absolutists say we don't need new laws.

[billh58]

26. The latest NRA/Gungeon

meme is "this law will not solve ALL of the problems, so let's focus on anything but guns."

[CBHagman]

33. Worse yet, they've been raffling off the type of gun used at Sandy Hook.

Let it never be said that the U.S. has the corner on good taste, sensitivity, or even functioning common sense.

Examples:

[url]http://www.salon.com/2013/05/09/steve_stockman_is_giving_away_an_ar_15/[/url]


[url]http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2013/03/little-league-denies-political-agenda-in-ar-15-rifle-raffle/[/url]

In fact, I think we all guess what googling AR-15 raffle would bring up.

[krispos42]

40. The AR-15 is a hugely popular rifle

For a variety of good, solid reasons that I won't go into unless you specifically ask about them.

I don't understand why you think that people that own AR-15s should, after Newtown, all of a sudden become disgusted with them and chop them up with a hacksaw.

It's irrational.

[CBHagman]

53. Ah, we have arrived at the multiple Rings of Logical Fallacy Hell.

Count them as we pass through.

[Gravitycollapse]

43. The AR-15 is the quintessential assault weapon. It was not done in poor taste.

Everybody and their mother gives away AR-15s for raffles.

[RGinNJ]

28. This is just too damned sad.

[DreamGypsy]

34. I posted the same sad fact in DU on Tuesday ...

...scooping National Journal by three days: In less than 6 months since Newtown, more Americans have been killed with guns in our streets...

...homes, shops, schools, and nurseries, etc, then U.S. Military personnel were killed in the Iraq War (Operation Iraqi 'Freedom') in the more than 7 years between March 19, 2003 and August 31, 2010.

The Slate death count stands at another interesting number right now:

Matched Deaths: 4,567 or more since Newtown

[krispos42]

38. And the number of non-gun murders since Newtown...

...now surpasses the number of Americans killed in Afghanistan.





The sheer surprise so many on DU show when something that has been known and documented for decades (average number of people murdered per year, for example) continues to astonish me.


Given the rate of 20 years ago, this headline would have been in MARCH, not June. But somehow, that doesn't matter.


It's another useless statistic.


Any average day (about 35 homicides) in America has as many Americans killed by murder than the total at Newtown by the 6 o'clock news broadcast.


Hell, CHICAGO's total number of murders last year was higher than the annual average of the Iraq Occupation.

[BainsBane]

39. It's only useless

If one doesn't care about those lives lost.

[krispos42]

41. So then can I count on you to not stop until the US homicide rate is zero?

And the suicide rate? And the accidental death rate? Medical malpractice death rate? Cancer death rate? Infectious disease rate?


And why don't you care about the non-gun homicides?

I give the author of the article you referenced credit, though... he was only talking about gun-related homicides, not all gun-related deaths, which would be a better comparison to combat losses in Iraq.




It's not your goal I have an issue with, it's the means of achievement. There is a ton of stuff we can do that will lower the homicide rate AND vastly improve the lives of vast swathes of our country, for which we should be (hopefully, if the RW noise machine finally collapses under the weight of its lies) rewarded politically.

The methods commonly advocated for on DU are the slowest and least effective, with minimal side benefits and high political cost.

[BainsBane]

44. Gun deaths are senseless

but if you would prefer no one ever sought medical care, you can lobby for even higher deaths yourself. The GOP is working on that quite steadily. You always seek to exclude deaths in order to justify doing nothing about gun proliferation. Pretending there is an equivalence between illness and guns is perverse. I understand you care about guns more than anything else. That is entirely your problem. I'm not interesting in rehashing the same debates you engage in every time in order to justify your views. You are wrong on every level, and especially morally. No amount of debate will ever change that fact. There is no moral equivalence between life and homicide, and there never will be.

[krispos42]

48. Is your goal to save the most lives possible?

Or it is zero gun deaths?


They are not the same.


And if you don't want the GOP running things, then I'll ask you this: why are you pursuing the slowest and least effective ways of cutting gun-related deaths, the ones with minimal side benefits and high political cost?


Can we agree that legalizing pot nationwide as a recreational and medicinal drug, able to be grown for personal use and moderately taxed if grown for sale, would save far more lives per year than banning rifles with protruding pistol grips?

[Progressive dog]

50. Believe it or not legalizing pot and regulating guns are not mutually exclusive

If that is your best argument for having all the gun nuts continue in their irresponsible ways, you have no argument.

[krispos42]

54. Then which should be done first?

Bear in mind that if Democrats lose control of government for taking a moral stand by, say, banning protruding pistol grips, then pot doesn't get legalized.

Again, it's high risk and high effort for minimal, delayed reward.



Violence is not caused by the presence or absence of weapons; violence is a symptom of other underlying causes. Weapons can change outcomes of violence; but they do not make people violent.


I do not like your contention that it's okay if root causes of violence are not addressed as long as people aren't killing each other.

[Progressive dog]

55. Some can walk and chew gum

Why would one have priority over the other?
Violence is made easier by the ready availability of guns.

The argument that Democrats might not get elected because they ban pistol grips is pathetic.

But you said,
"I do not like your contention that it's okay if root causes of violence are not addressed as long as people aren't killing each other."
and I don't like you making up stuff.

[Pelican]

47. Excellent...

Well said...

[HiPointDem]

45. Add at least 1500 deaths of contractors in Iraq = about 6000 dead doing things the US military

used to do for itself (rather than contract out).

[napkinz]

49. kick

nt

[lame54]

51. we fight em here so we don't have to fight em over there...

Or something like that

[Iggo]

52. But it's our goddam motherfucking constitutional right, goddamit!

Ick, ick, ick!