How are so many missing the biggest claim Zimmerman made about the shooting

[newmember]

I see a lot of Zimmerman , Martin threads but what is the claim Zimmerman
made on why he shot Martin?

Without using google , does anyone know?

This will be crucial to the prosecution and to the defense.

[alphafemale]

1. The crime happened a long way from the truck he claimed to be right outside.

That?

[newmember]

2. No

Zimmerman's claim was that he was going to be shot.

[alphafemale]

3. I have never heard that.

His claim of self defense is having his head slammed ito the ground.

Wounds do not support claim.

He had scraches on his head. His head was not bashed into pavement.

[newmember]

4. It was not

Zimmerman claimed Martin went for his gun and said I'm going to kill you.
Now lets think this through if you were the prosecution.

I have no skin in this and I'm not sure what happened that night.
Also I don't think Martin was an angel in this .but if I was the prosecution.

These would be my questions..

If Zimmerman was on the ground with Martin on top hitting his face how did he know he had a gun in his holster
concealed. Zimmerman claimed that it was Martin who first put his hands on the gun.

That Martin tried to take it away from him. but inside his holster in the dark ? Did Martin decide to start
feeling around Zimmerman's waist during the fight?

Also is if Zimmerman lied about that , Is Martin to blame if he did go for his gun once Zimmerman pulled it out?

[pacalo]

25. Heh, refuting Zimmerman's *claims* will be a cakewalk for the prosecutor.

Zimmerman has gifted the prosecutor with a huge web of lies that will surely be pointed out to the jury.

[polly7]

101. Yep. All those lies of his will definitely come back to bite him. (I hope). nt.

[Sheldon Cooper]

73. Martin is to blame for exactly nothing. Zero.

100% of the blame for this entire incident rests squarely on the shoulders of Zimmerman. Period.

[Just Saying]

89. Interesting

So if I am armed and at any point I think a person I'm fighting with goes for my gun I have a right to shoot them?

BTW I posted video of Zimmerman telling his side down the thread.

[uppityperson]

106. I remember Zimmy talking about Trayvon going for his gun, way back in the beginning.

" Is Martin to blame if he did go for his gun once Zimmerman pulled it out?" No. IF, and lots of big IFs there, someone pulls a gun on someone else, (Zimmy on Trayvon), does the pullee have the right to try and get it, knock it away, defend himself? Is he "to blame" for getting shot? No. Not at all.

[GreenStormCloud]

96. The EMT's that treated him disagree with you.

Here are their statements. http://forums.talkleft.com/index.php/topic,2129.0.html (Please note that TalkLeft is a liberal site run by lawyers.)

O’Rourke

Treated him in back of patrol car
one or two lacerations on back of head
what looked like a fractured nose
he cleaned the blood off his head and face
he was covered in a significant amount of blood
it took a while to clean him up
he’d say 45% of him was covered in blood
there was blood on his cheeks and back in head

Brandy

abrasions on face
a cut on the back of his head
he told an officer he would need to go to hospital and get stitches
officer said ok, he asked if cops would take him or they (EMTs) should, cop said cops would take him
He had a definite laceration to the back of the head
It was pretty big, at least an inch by a half inch wide
There were abrasions on forehead, cheeks and face, his nose was swollen
There was one big cut on the back of his head, it was straight up and down
He had blood on his arms and his hands, they used peroxide to clean him up and wash his hands

Livingstone

He had blood on his face, and what looked like a broken nose
There were two small (one inch) lacerations on the back of his head
One looked deeper than other
They cleaned them so they would stop bleeding
Police asked if he needed to go by ambulance. They told cops he looks like he has a broken nose, may need a stitch or two. After discussion, police told them they would take him and see if he needs stitches
GZ complained to her about his injuries, said he was dizzy
When she was trying to get dried blood off she had to push a little harder, and he said it hurt. He also said his nose hurt.

[Tx4obama]

157. Officer's Cellphone Pics Show Zimmerman May NOT Have Been Punched the Night he Killed Trayvon

Jun 03, 2013

Officer's Cellphone Pics Show Zimmerman May NOT Have Been Punched the Night he Killed Trayvon

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/06/03/1213239/-Officer-s-Cellphone-Pics-Show-Zimmerman-May-NOT-Have-Been-Punched-the-Night-he-Killed-Trayvon

[GreenStormCloud]

160. That will be for the lawyers to argue and the jury to decide. N/T

[Demo_Chris]

5. In my opinion the most damaging and telling thing Zimmerman said...

Was while he was on the telephone with police dispatch. This is important stuff that most people seem to be missing.

Zimmerman was setting up the shoot at that time. He basically went through a pre-shoot checklist, checking off the boxes. He labeled Trayvon as being on drugs, he said something was definately wrong with him, he said Trayvon was checking him out, he said Trayvon reaced into his waistband and pulled something out, he said Trayvon was coming towards him, he asked for the police to hurry and save him. The poor guy was positively terrified of this menacing drugged up hoodlum with the weapon in his hands.

Except none of that happened -- it was all a lie. Zimmerman was checking off the boxes, establishing a reasonable case to blow Trayvon away out there in the street. And when Zimmerman openen his car door to do just that, Trayvon ran. Zimmerman had a gun and he wanted to use it, he wanted to kill a bad guy, and he knew -- worst case -- that he would never be convicted with all that on recording. But Trayvon ran, and not only did he screw up Zimmerman's story, he basically killed any chance Zimmerman might have had to try the same story again. So he chased him down and caught him between the buildings.

All just my opinion, but I believe the 911 call tells you everything you need to know about what really happened that night. This wasn't manslaughter or even murder two. In my opinion this was premeditated. You'd never be able to prove it, but that's what it looks like to me.

[uppityperson]

7. Yup, listening to what he said, it is very telling.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

9. The bottom line for me is his pursuit of Trayvon after the dispatcher told him to stand down.

Everything that transpires after that is moot in terms of Zimmerman's case. He should have not pursued Trayvon. And that's really the end of this story as far as I'm concerned.

[Recursion]

11. For you, maybe, but legally even someone disobeying a 911 operator has a right to self defense

And following someone down a sidewalk doesn't give that person the right to beat you up. This is ultimately a difficult case for the government.

[newmember]

19. It's going to be hard because you have conflicting testimony from eye witnesses even

It's all over the map

[Recursion]

21. Exactly, though with a positive defense a tie doesn't necessarily go to Zimmerman

Still, this would be a tough case as a juror, at least for me.

[VanillaRhapsody]

105. you are of the "male" persuasion aren't you?

cause think if Trayvon had been female in this scenario....would it be so hard to figure out then? If a female had someone persuing her on a dark street like that....she ran...and still the guy followed....whatever she had to do to defend herself would have been acceptible...

I don't see this being any different in Trayvon's case

[JDPriestly]

23. I don't agree.

following someone down a sidewalk doesn't give that person the right to beat you up.

Following someone down a sidewalk in the dark can very well give that person the right to beat you up.

Zimmerman didn't just follow Trayvon Martin down the street. Before he did that he called the police and reported Trayvon Martin as acting suspiciously, as running away (as if Martin shouldn't have run when he noticed Zimmerman there with a phone in his hand staring at him?)

No. It depends on how you follow someone down the street, why you follow someone down the street. It depends on a lot.

Zimmerman's big advantage in the trial will be that only he survived to tell his story. And because of that, I would not want to try to guess the outcome.

Zimmerman said he wanted to find out where Martin had gone and followed him for that reason. But the dispatcher (or whatever he was) that was on the phone with Zimmerman specifically told him that he did not need to do that.

The outcome of the case in the trial court cannot be predicted, but if the prosecutor knows his job, Zimmerman faces a battle. That's for sure.

And Zimmerman's life will never be the same no matter what happens. Think about OJ. After his trial, his life never returned to "pleasant" or "normal" or "good."

Having killed an unarmed, innocent kid, whether you are convicted of it or not, is going to be a tough burden for Zimmerman to bear no matter what happens.

[pacalo]

40. You're right about the quality of Zimmerman's life after making such a poor choice.

Because of his extreme paranoia, Zimmerman was compelled to spend money he couldn't afford on personal bodyguards. That couldn't possibly continue for the rest of his life, if he were to walk away. He'll never have peace of mind again. He will be better off in prison.

As for how the trial will turn out, one of the most important lessons I've learned from the internet is that adults don't always have common sense or good logical skills. There will be only six people on the jury & I hope the prosecutor does a magnificent job in presenting the state's case.

[Sheepshank]

102. Freepers are stilly passing around the GZ donation web site and claim to be donating

Probably drives Rib Job nuts since it's money that is being diverted away from FR donation drives. Still....there is a resurgence over there because of some recent court ruling admitting certain pieces of evidence. They are convinced it's the make or break decision of the case. Of course they are convinced that god is on their side and their way of thinking is in the majority too. So while we sit and wait, GZ is still getting donations.

[pacalo]

118. That's the type of riffraff I was talking about.

[Art_from_Ark]

28. In the 911 call, Zimmerman said Martin was running away

Zimmerman uttered a racial epithet about people of Martin's race "always getting away". The dispatcher told Zimmerman that they didn't need him to pursue Martin. Nevertheless, Zimmerman, armed with a gun, got out of his vehicle and pursued Martin anyway.

There is no self-defense on Zimmerman's part-- he did everything he could to instigate a confrontation.

http://bizsecurity.about.com/od/creatingpolicies/a/A-Transcript-Of-The-George-Zimmerman-Police-Call.htm

[Recursion]

31. Z says otherwise

Got a witness that refutes that?

[Art_from_Ark]

33. The 911 call refutes it

[Recursion]

34. That's impossible

What's at question is what happened after he hung up.

[Art_from_Ark]

36. Nope

The dispatcher told him not to chase after Martin. Zimmerman did anyway, after he had uttered his racial epithet. There's no question that Zimmerman, armed with a gun, got out of his vehicle to pursue an unarmed teenager, against the advice of the 911 dispatcher. Zimmerman was hunting for Martin, and found him, well away from his vehicle. Zimmerman instigated the confrontation.

[Recursion]

37. doesn't matter

None of that legally matters. Like Martin, he had every right to be on that sidewalk

[Art_from_Ark]

41. It sure does matter

Where do you get the crazy idea that chasing after someone who has done absolutely no harm to you in the dark with a gun doesn't legally matter? It's stalking, at the very least. Zimmerman initiated the confrontation. Martin was unarmed. And Martin had every right right to try to fight off someone who was stalking him. It doesn't matter what Zimmerman did after that, he started a completely unnecessary confrontation and ended up killing a defenseless teenager.

[Recursion]

46. we don't know that

Z claims M ran off, Z drove some more and got out, and M came back and attacked him. At least that was the last version I heard. Can you disprove his claim?

[Art_from_Ark]

52. That's bullshit because the scene of the confrontation

was far from Zim's vehicle. Zimmerman "headed Martin off at the pass".

http://bcclist.com/2012/03/27/trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-map/

[ryan_cats]

114. That's exactly the bottom line.

what Zimmerman did after that, he started a completely unnecessary confrontation and ended up killing a defenseless teenager. That's exactly the bottom line; if he hadn't confronted Martin, the police would have been there within the minute. He instigated this and an innocent kid dies.

I don't know if it is premeditated murder, but it seems more than manslaughter.

[GreenStormCloud]

97. Zimmerman was ALREADY out of his vehicle when the dispatcher told him not to follow.

Check the transcript:

http://www.talkleft.com/zimm/alternatetranscript.pdf

[VanillaRhapsody]

108. As a female

if Z had of done to me what he did to Martin...when he approached me on that dark street....he would have been fighting for his life...cause I damn sure would have been fighting to kill him before he killed me....and I BET you...that is exactly what Martin thought too!

[pacalo]

44. Zimmerman's lies haven't done much for his credibility. What he "says" will have meant

nothing by the time the prosecutor is finished presenting those lies to the jury.

[Recursion]

47. If he can get those introduced

I hope he can. I'm not holding my breath

[pacalo]

50. Zimmerman is the only eyewitness. How will his lawyer introduce his claims if he doesn't testify.

And, why won't he testify if he claims he's so innocent & he's portraying Trayvon Martin as a "thug".

[VanillaRhapsody]

109. Applause!

[Demo_Chris]

71. Yes, we do. The physical evidence as it relates to Z's story, and...

Trayvon's girlfriend who was on the phone up to the moment of the attack.

[newmember]

38. "Zimmerman uttered a racial epithet "

He was actually cleared on that , and he didn't .

[Art_from_Ark]

49. I don't think he was actually cleared on that

Zimmerman

"Okay. These f'ing (slur) they always get away. "

Although CNN tries to make it sound like he's saying "f'ing cold", that sounds like bullshit. Because, first of all, Zimmerman's in his vehicle when he says that, so he shouldn't be cold. Second, the expletive is preceded by the word "these" and the apparent slur is followed by "they always get away". So the slur would be much more likely than "these f'ing cold they always get away"

[GreenStormCloud]

98. No, Zimmerman was ALREADY out of his truck at that point.

Transcript: http://www.talkleft.com/zimm/alternatetranscript.pdf

[Warren Stupidity]

55. When you hunt down somebody while you are armed with a deadly weapon

claims of self defense are dubious, at best.

[Recursion]

56. Before God, yes. Before 12 of your peers, less so.

Look, in my heart I believe Zimmerman assaulted Martin.

The fact remains that this is a difficult thing to prove.

[VanillaRhapsody]

111. well if you believe that...as a woman it makes me want to vomit!

[Recursion]

120. As a combat vet it makes me ill

And yet this is where we are

[VanillaRhapsody]

132. No actually it is not....in the military...rape victims cannot get a fair shake...your view is

clouded by that...THIS is the real world. Things are different here!

[Recursion]

133. Powerful, irrelevant statements

A lot of those today

[VanillaRhapsody]

137. not surprised you cannot see the forest for the trees when it comes to your opinions...

[Demo_Chris]

72. Self Defense is an affirmative defense. This means that it is not ASSUMED

The burden of proof shifts from the prosecution to the person making the claim. It's the defendent's job to convince the jury that it happened in this way and that because of this they felt in danger. Further, certain actions leading up to the encounter negate the claim. Zimmerman did not just follow this kid down the sidewalk. He followed him from the clubhouse all the wy to the corner, and when Martin became so alarmed that he ran Zimmerman left his car to run after him. They eventually met. Here, the physical evidence and the girlfriend's testimony both give the lie to Zimmerman's story.

So...

Now the burden is on him. He has to convince a jury that his actions were reasonable and that his version of events is accurate, he has to convince them that he is telling the truth and both the physical evidence and the witness testimony are not. And somehow he has to fulfill this burden without actually testifying himself -- because if he takes the stand he is going to get creamed.

[GreenStormCloud]

99. Not in Florida.

The prosecution still has to prove intent on Z's part.

[Sheepshank]

103. just based on this thread alone GZ is pissed that "fucking*slur* keep getting away with it."

GZ was intent on being the neighborhood hero.

[Ikonoklast]

75. Following someone in their vehicle. Deliberately confronting a person in public for no valid reason.

Stalking. Then getting up in my face.

Do that to me and you might be swallowing some teeth.


Zimmerman is toast, he got *exactly* what he wanted out of his contrived confrontation.

[Recursion]

76. So you're saying you have a right to hit someone who does those things?

Interesting.

[Ikonoklast]

78. All I need is for you to touch me.

And that includes bumping into my person.

Yes, that would be enough. I, too, have the right to stand my ground and defend myself.

[Recursion]

80. I agree. I doubt Z touched him first

I think the scumbag Zimmerman was a little too smarmy to start it.

[GreenStormCloud]

100. In your post 75 you didn't list anything that involved touching.

You were ready to strike first.

[Ikonoklast]

131. What is your point?

If you are aware that a stranger is following you in his car, you lose him, he doubles back in his vehicle, leaves it to confront you on the sidewalk, you better be ready unless you are completely brain-dead.

I thought you gunners were all for situational awareness as a first defense, and retreat as a second?

Martin was implementing both, only to be tracked down by a man determined for a confrontation.

Guess not when it doesn't fit your narrative.

[VanillaRhapsody]

113. Trayvon is the one that could use self-defense here

had he killed Z instead....would this even be a trial?

[MattBaggins]

154. You are not correct

Walking behind someone on the street is no crime.

When someone is clearly running away from you and you chase them, you are most certainly in the wrong and are the aggressor giving the other person reasonable fear of danger to themselves.

[pacalo]

27. "They always get away", which provides Zimmerman's motivation in disregarding the

911 dispatcher's valuable advice to leave the area.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

66. Had similar thoughts. Great analysis.

[samsingh]

107. i think you're right

[Skittles]

6. Zimmerman is a paranoid gun humper

Last edited Tue Jun 4, 2013, 04:30 AM - Edit history (1)

and YOU are not fooling anyone

[JI7]

26. nice to see i'm not the only one

that has noticed that one.

[Skittles]

51. he's not good at what he does

[HangOnKids]

149. :Lots of us have noticed!

[newmember]

42. .

[HangOnKids]

110. Ahh how cute!

Keep going NM it is just precious.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

8. The gun should then have Martin's fingerprints on it, no?

[newmember]

12. They didn't run any prints on Zimmerman's gun , and it also would have been too late

Since Zimmerman had control of it after the shooting.

It's surprising to me that the claim Zimmerman made about Martin trying to go for his gun
isn't mentioned in the media. The first claim was Martin went for his gun not that Zimmerman
pulled out his gun to stop the beating because he feared for his life.

He said he feared for his life because Martin went for his gun.

edit to add

And shouted I'm going to kill you

[pacalo]

45. Again, that's what Zimmerman *claims*. He's been proven to be a liar.

[uppityperson]

112. Zimmy also says Trayvon said "you got me" before dramatically falling dead.

Zimmy says lots of things. Including that Trayvon went for his concealed gun so he had no choice but to pull it out and shoot him.

[HangOnKids]

129. Martin Went For The Gun That Zimmerman Had Not Pulled Out Yet?

Or are you claiming that Martin had his own gun that he went for? Because Martin had no gun, either way I am just going to sit back and let you have a nice day. Really. It will all be over with soon enough.

[newmember]

138. Yes

That is Zimmerman's claim

[HangOnKids]

140. Which Is It? I Offered 2 Scenarios

Zim claims Martin went after his (Zimmermans) gun, or Martin went after his OWN gun? Either one of these sounds like BS and I will have to agree with Skittles up thread. Carry on!

[newmember]

146. read the thread

[Recursion]

10. He claims to have shot Martin because he feared Martin would attack him again

We have photos of him bleeding in police custody, so it's at least consistent with the evidence that he was attacked. He may also have attacked Martin and Martin kicked his ass, but we don't know.

[uppityperson]

13. No, it is not consistent with being attacked. It is consistent with he was injured in the face,

could have been from someone defending themselves against him. All the blood shows is somehow his face was impacted. It does NOT show he was attacked or how that impact happened.

What "evidence that he was attacked" do you mean?

[newmember]

15. It's consistent that a fist fight happened

[uppityperson]

17. He could have been kicked in the face. Or been hit with a branch from a tree. Or fell face down.

Something impacted his face. That is what it is consistent with. That is all it proves.

I got a cracked rib and bloody face once. No fist fight happened. I got thrown on the ground and kicked in the side and face. No fist fight.

All a bloody nose proves is something impacted it.

[newmember]

22. There's eye witnesses that there was a fight between the two

[uppityperson]

104. You miss the point. SEEING someone do something means you saw them. Seeing blood on a

face without seeing HOW it got there tells you only that the face impacted something, not that it was a fistfight. That is my point.

Rather like my blackened thumbnail does not mean I hit it with a hammer but only it was hit with something. Now if you saw me hit it with a hammer, that would strengthen your argument that it was hammer caused, but guess what. I actually got it slammed in a car door the day before.

My only point it that having a bloody nose does not prove a fist fight.

[Recursion]

18. Well, yes, that is actually consistent with being attacked

But it's not dispositive of being attacked. Big difference. Now, it's a positive defense, so simply having consistent evidence is not necessarily enough.

[uppityperson]

20. It "could be" not "is"? OK. That I will agree with.

It could be, but isn't necessarily. It doesn't prove anything though.

[newmember]

14. I didn't say he wasn't attacked , but is it plausible that Martin went for his gun?

This is Zimmerman's statement .

This is how the gun got into the picture.

[Recursion]

16. Is that part of the actual legal defense?

I haven't followed this case closely; I heard that as a balloon sent out to the press, but I didn't think they were running with it.

[newmember]

24. How can it not be part of it?

That was Zimmerman's claim .
It would be very strange if this was dropped from his defense.

[dkf]

29. They might make that claim but its unprovable vs the bloody nose and cuts on his head.

[newmember]

32. So you heard about this claim early on in the case also ?

Its strange it's never talked about now.

Zimmerman's exact words were .

Martin reached down and tried to pull his gun out of his holster while shouting I'm going to kill you.

[dkf]

39. At the time I thought it was too pat and awfully convenient.

I don't know what to do with that claim.

[newmember]

43. Then the prosecution can make him out a liar if they back off of it

When charged with a crime , don't make statements to the press.
It wasn't his lawyer that made the statement , Zimmerman made it

[dkf]

48. I'm thinking there is no way to prove or disprove that statement.

Unless he gets tripped up in his testimony I guess I would have to take it at face value

[newmember]

77. I'm no lawyer but I could trip him up in about 4 questions if I was allowed

to ask him on the stand.


It wouldn't be hard with the claim he made.



Ii want to add if indeed he did lie about Martin going for his gun first.

The case would be over and he would be shown a lier on the stand

[Recursion]

122. so you understand lawyers cannot ask whatever they want?

Just making sure you Hey that

[newmember]

139. They can ask what ever they like but it will be objected to by the defense

My questions would be allowed by the judge being Zimmerman is the one who made the claim.

[Skittles]

53. HOW ELSE WOULD HE EXPLAIN KILLING AN UNARMED TEENAGER???

Zimmerman is a gun humping lying piece of SHIT

[Recursion]

30. Because PR and legal defense are different

What you say at a press conference doesn't dictate what you say in testimony

[newmember]

35. It's going to be an interesting trial to follow

Depending on the verdict it could get ugly.
This has reached nation wide interest

[Hoyt]

116. What? You think the bigoted gun lovers will riot if Zimmerman gets convicted of murdering unarmed

teenager because he was black?

[newmember]

136. I think anything can happen

[Hoyt]

143. Well at least you understand how non-law-abiding gun lovers generally are, despite what they say.

[newmember]

147. It could go either way

"non-law-abiding gun lovers generally are"

Or it could be some young African American males that feel that a murderer just got off because he was white
after killing a black teenager

It could go either way

[Hoyt]

150. That would be the case. Is that what you and your buddies think?

Sounds Fox Newsish to me, but so do most of your posts on this topic.

[newmember]

151. No either way frightens me

You guys are my buddies







but we must respect the jury system if Zimmerman is found not guilty

[Hoyt]

152. You've already said what you think, and it's a bunch of bigoted BS.

Deny it in the next post, as is your MO, but it won't change a thing. Your attempts at appearing unbiased are laughable.

[newmember]

153. You are hurting my feelings now

[demwing]

57. Why are you so invested in arguing for Zimmerman?

Do tell

[Recursion]

58. Because Latino men are constantly accused of aggression falsely?

There are a lot of reasons.

[demwing]

60. thank you for the verification

I suspected it had little to do with the facts.

[Recursion]

61. Facts are precisely what we don't have

Where did Z. go when he left the car? Where was M. at that time? We don't know.

[demwing]

62. You had a chance to answer differently

But your first inclination was to claim that Zimmerman was being falsely accused of aggression.

[Recursion]

63. No, and you just revealed yourself by that

That was not my claim. Nice try, though.

My point was that Z cannot be positively convicted of aggression.

[demwing]

64. Come on, be real

I asked why you defend Zimmerman, you answered :

Because Latino men are constantly accused of aggression falsely

That was pretty damned clear, despite your current backtracking.

[Recursion]

65. I don't defend Zimmerman at all. I hope he's convicted. I also think it's a hard case

On DU I'm used to this. Admitting that something is difficult practically is tantamount to saying you don't want it. So be it.

[demwing]

67. It must be difficult

To explain why previous comments conflict with the current.

[Recursion]

68. No, it's easy: Zimmerman is a fucking liar

Everything he said to the press was a fucking lie. I believe that. Do you?

Now. Prove it in court.

Good luck getting the earlier statements admitted.

[demwing]

69. Sorry. I was referring to your comments

Not Zimmerman's

[Recursion]

70. Oh, nothing to say, then. I have no conflict reported.

Later

[newmember]

81. Zimmerman's lawyer is going to have to make the decision on whether

he will take the stand based on how the trial is going.

If it looks like it's going good for the defense he's stay put.

The last thing Zimmerman should want is to be put on that stand .

[Recursion]

85. It would surprise me if Z takes the stand, because that opens up his whole history of bullshit

But the fact is a defendant is not required to testify. Damn that 5th amendment...

[newmember]

92. To me it seems he wants to take the stand against his lawyers advice

If you remember he was making statements to the media against his lawyers advice.

This is the first attorney he hired not the current one now.

If the prosecution tries to go with trying to show Zimmerman as a thug
by bringing up his domestic violence (which was never proven)or the time he pushed an officer when he was 20 in a barroom.

That means they already lost and the jury will see through that kind of bullshit tactics.

[Recursion]

95. That is my armchair lawyer take too

On a personal level I hope he testifies

[Just Saying]

94. He's not required to, but it's the only way

The jury hears his version. And there are no witnesses to the whole fight as I understand it. If he doesn't take the stand the jury will just see a guy who chased and then shot an unarmed kid. (Which is probably the truth anyway.)

[newmember]

83. That's why I started this thread

[veganlush]

54. why shouldn't "stand your ground"

Apply to martin instead? He had every right to pound his attacker.

[Recursion]

59. Z is not attempting an SYG defense

So, it has nothing to do with that.

[Hoyt]

117. He's claiming self-defense, which is pretty much the same. SYG just gives punks like Z

another level of defense when they pull their gun and shoot an unarmed person when it wasn't justified.

[Recursion]

121. Oh no. Huge difference.

SYG is a specific subset of self-defense. Z waived his hearing for it. No SYG

[Hoyt]

125. He's claiming self-defense. SYG is just another way for gun lovers to protect themselves

when the fuck up and kill someone.

Z is still claiming he had to kill an unarmed teenager to save his own worthless life.

[veganlush]

135. doesn't matter.

it should be presented to the jury by the prosecution as a useful way of looking at the case. "stand your ground" in concept means you are not required to back down and away from a threat, and in fact can use deadly force simply for feeling "threatened". At the very least, that concept could be applied to Martin's thinking and acting, and the notion makes for a compelling default position for Martin.

[GreenStormCloud]

141. No, you can't use deadly force for simply "feeling" threatened.

The person you defend yourself against has to have demonstrated intent to seriously harm you, have the opportunity, the means, and a motive for harming you. Those have to be of such a nature that a reasonable person would then believe that they were in serious danger.

Z is claiming that TM was had knocked Z down and was on top of him, beating Z's head against concrete. If the defense is able to prove that, then it would qualify as self-defense. SYG would not be involved as you can't retreat when someone has you on the ground.

[veganlush]

156. you're making shit up

Where in SYG legislation does it say that you have to ascertain means and motive?

[GreenStormCloud]

159. You don't understand self-defense or SYG.

SYG merely means that you don't have to retreat if you have a legal right to be somewhere, and that is all that it means. All of the rest of the self-defense law still applies.

I had to take classes in self-defense law to be able to have a Concealed Handgun License, and again, more extensive classes, to be able to carry a gun as a Security Guard.

Wiki has a good write -up: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_self-defense

In the Gravest Extreme by Massad Ayoob is generally considered to the one of the best books on the subject for a layman.

[warrior1]

74. Zimmerson shot an unarmed kid

who was trying to run away from him.

[orpupilofnature57]

79. .

[Common Sense Party]

84. So the gunshot wound will show that Martin was shot in the back while in a standing position?

I haven't heard that bit of evidence.

[orpupilofnature57]

87. No, he spun around and got shot in the chest.

All we KNOW is that Zimmerman followed him usurping authority he didn't have .

[Common Sense Party]

115. So the evidence shows that both men were in a standing position when Trayvon was shot?

The ballistics evidence does not indicate that Zimmerman was on the ground and shot Trayvon who was on top of him at the time?

Because that is the story that's out there. Your version is significantly different. Have you seen this evidence? I'd love to look at it.

[orpupilofnature57]

123. Forensics are fascinating, a history of crime isn't .

[Common Sense Party]

124. Do you have evidence that both men were standing?

Will that come out in the trial?

[orpupilofnature57]

126. No, being one of the two wittinesses are dead, Conjecture will...

Which in a chat room as in a courtroom, doesn't require evidence, Reasonably speaking .

[Common Sense Party]

127. There are other witnesses.

I don't know how reliable they are, but some neighbors saw what was happening.

[spinbaby]

82. Wasn't Trayvon's girlfriend on the phone with him?

I seem to remember that she heard the beginning of the altercation.

[Just Saying]

91. There is audio but I think it was discredited. N/t

[Just Saying]

86. What Zimmerman said was

Thats when my jacket moved up and I had my firearm on my right side hip. My jacket moved up and he saw...I feel like he saw. He looked at it. He said, "You're going to die tonight motherf$&)(/." And he reached for it. He reached... I felt his arm go down my side so I grabbed my firearm and I shot him."

(transcribed to the best of my ability)

Now this all supposedly happened while Trayvon was sitting on top of him after banging GZ's head on the sidewalk. Unfortunately for Trayvon, he's not here to give his side. Unfortunately for George, he'll have to take the stand for his version to be heard.

Audio of Zimmerman's statement is here at the first dot under "The Conflict." There's a lot of other audio there as well including 911 calls.

http://www.usatoday.com/interactives/news/nation/trayvon-martin-zimmerman-case/

[orpupilofnature57]

88. I wonder how many pursuers call 9/11 ?

Just saying .

[Just Saying]

90. He was playing cop

On one of the police reports they called Zimmerman overzealous and said he had a hero complex.

[JI7]

134. he had a record of making a lot of phone calls to cops including on some small black child

about 7 years old.

[Mariana]

119. Ones who want to shoot someone and get away with it. nt.

[Just Saying]

128. You may be on to something!

Looking at the timeline it appears that Zimmerman was on the phone to the police until 7:15 and first officers arrives at 7:17. Not much time for some big altercation to break out.

[Just Saying]

144. Have you listened to the tapes?

One in particular says that there was no fighting going on when the shot was fired.

It will be interesting to see who ends up on the stand, but I don't think anyone saw the whole thing like how it started, what was said, who threw the first punch- all of which is relevant since he's claiming self defense.

[Mariana]

148. Some gun owners fantasize about shooting a "bad guy".

A few go so far as to try to put themselves into a position to able to do so. They may, for example, make a hobby of driving around looking for "bad guys". When they find a potential "bad guy", they may attempt to initiate contact, hoping the potential "bad guy" will behave in a threatening manner. Of course, before they do this, they will call 911 and describe how the potential "bad guy" is scary and dangerous looking.

[Sunlei]

93. other than any public talk z did after he was read his rights..it doesn't matter his explaning 'why'

all that staring and stalking, never once did he say." Hi, I'm neighborhood watch, what are you doing here?"

[Dwayne Hicks]

145. n/t

Zimmerman stalked, harrassed and violent attacked Martin, an unarmed teenager who stood his ground. Its pretty clear cut.

[curlyred]

155. Poster is nothing if not consistent

Anyone familiar with poster's history knows exactly how he feels about this issue.

[Tx4obama]

158. Officer's Cellphone Pics Show Zimmerman May NOT Have Been Punched the Night he Killed Trayvon

Jun 03, 2013

Officer's Cellphone Pics Show Zimmerman May NOT Have Been Punched the Night he Killed Trayvon

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/06/03/1213239/-Officer-s-Cellphone-Pics-Show-Zimmerman-May-NOT-Have-Been-Punched-the-Night-he-Killed-Trayvon