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All the Infrastructure a Tyrant Would Need, Courtesy of Bush and ObamaMore and more, we're counting on having angels in office and making ourselves vulnerable to devils.
CONOR FRIEDERSDORF - TheAtlantic
JUN 7 2013, 9:45 AM ET
<snip>
Let's assume that George W. Bush, Dick Cheney, Barack Obama, Joe Biden, their staffers, and every member of Congress for the last dozen years has always acted with pure motives in the realm of national security. Say they've used the power they've claimed, the technology they've developed, and the precedents they've established exclusively to fight al-Qaeda terrorists intent on killing us, that they've succeeded in disrupting what would've been successful attacks, and that Americans are lucky to have had men and women so moral, prudent, and incorruptible in charge.
Few Americans believe all of that to be so. Combining the people who didn't trust Bush and the ones who don't trust Obama adds up to a sizable part of the citizenry. But even if all the critics were proved wrong, even if the CIA, NSA, FBI, and every other branch of the federal government had been improbably filled, top to bottom, with incorruptible patriots constitutionally incapable of wrongdoing, this would still be so: The American people have no idea who the president will be in 2017. Nor do we know who'll sit on key Senate oversight committees, who will head the various national-security agencies, or whether the moral character of the people doing so, individually or in aggregate, will more closely resemble George Washington, Woodrow Wilson, FDR, Richard Nixon, Ronald Reagan, John Yoo, or Vladimir Putin.
What we know is that the people in charge will possess the capacity to be tyrants -- to use power oppressively and unjustly -- to a degree that Americans in 1960, 1970, 1980, 1990, or 2000 could've scarcely imagined. To an increasing degree, we're counting on having angels in office and making ourselves vulnerable to devils. Bush and Obama have built infrastructure any devil would lust after.
Behold the items on an aspiring tyrant's checklist that they've provided their successors:
* A precedent that allows the president to kill citizens in secret without prior judicial or legislative review
* The power to detain prisoners indefinitely without charges or trial
* Ongoing warrantless surveillance on millions of Americans accused of no wrongdoing, converted into a permanent database so that data of innocents spied upon in 2007 can be accessed in 2027
* Using ethnic profiling to choose the targets of secret spying, as the NYPD did with John Brennan's blessing
* Normalizing situations in which the law itself is secret -- and whatever mischief is hiding in those secret interpretations
* The permissibility of droning to death people whose identities are not even known to those doing the killing
* The ability to collect DNA swabs of people who have been arrested even if they haven't been convicted of anything
* A torture program that could be restarted with an executive order
Even if you think Bush and Obama exercised those extraordinary powers responsibly, what makes you think every president would? How can anyone fail to see the huge potential for abuses?
<snip>
More: http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2013/06/all-the-infrastructure-a-tyrant-would-need-courtesy-of-bush-and-obama/276635/
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NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)
NRaleighLiberal
(61,857 posts)
cantbeserious
(13,039 posts)eom
cliffordu
(30,994 posts)We are fucked.
villager
(26,001 posts)Or at least, our "leaders" have.
AAO
(3,300 posts)
roamer65
(37,953 posts)
bvar22
(39,909 posts)*
KansDem
(28,498 posts)Then if we rid ourselves of those freedoms, they'll stop hating us! 
It's a "win/win" for all! 
byeya
(2,842 posts)Denmark which have a greater range of civil rights and liberties than we enjoy.
Or maybe, it's not our freedoms they hate.
byeya
Well at least Denmark, Sweden, Norway and New-Zealand is to small - to in-important to get on the radars for the "evil-doers" I guess. Not that we have our own issues to master.. We have one, who is at Ila prison - who was blowing up the government offices - and killed more than 80 people, most of then young kids on a youth camp..
I'm not sure if we have a greater range of civil rights on the paper - but by custom and by tradition I suspect we might are used to far more liberties than the US have for the moment... For the most part, either Denmark and Norway have anything like your amendments to the constitution, even though we have constitutions who for the most part is based on the US and the france constitutions....
The road the US have been going, all since 2001 I would say is not a good one - it is a road I would say that I would never expected the US to go - before 2001 and the election of Bush jr as the next president (I know about Florida and all that shit, but for the sake of argument, I call it an election where US managed to elect the worst president ever) And now it is just going from bad to worse...
In some corner of hell - I suspect Berjia - Stalin - Hitler and Himmler - is looking interesting at what is happening in the US - and laughing their ass off, as the US are doing more to damage the country - than they would have been able to do when they was in power.. Specially Berjia and Stalin, two guys that was really into the "state security" thing - would be amused to know how bad things are starting to be in the US.. And they would also be in envy, over the resources the system have today, to have full control over it all - to probe into everything the government want to probe into - with impunity as it is the law of the land (The patriot act you know )...
Diclotican
Demo_Chris
(6,234 posts)L0oniX
(31,493 posts)
ProSense
(116,464 posts)this is EXACTLY the point.
hedda_foil
(16,985 posts)
Vinnie From Indy
(10,820 posts)This is why the programs being revealed are so much more dangerous to Americans than any terrorist or terrorist group. These mechanisms may or may not be abused by Pres. Obama, but the next Pres or the one after that might not be inclined to follow the law. If history has proven anything, it is that these powers will be abused. It is hardly an idea that any rational person could defend with a straight face. These powers WILL BE USED AGAINST AMERICANS AT SOME POINT IN THE FUTURE for the personal goals of those that wield them. Bank on it!
WillyT
(72,631 posts)
BrotherIvan
(9,126 posts)
idwiyo
(5,113 posts)AnotherMcIntosh
(11,064 posts)There are good politicians from Chicago.
The good thing about this surveillance is that good politicians from Chicago will be able to use their information to select only other good politicians from Chicago.
MjolnirTime
(1,800 posts)WillyT
(72,631 posts)
burnodo
(2,017 posts)Does that make him a troll?
bvar22
(39,909 posts)JUN 7 2013, 9:45 AM ET
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2013/06/all-the-infrastructure-a-tyrant-would-need-courtesy-of-bush-and-obama/276635/
In your defense, WillyT did add the smilie for his commentary
On the other hand, you post an unsupported Ad Hominem attack on
WillyT without commenting on anything contained in the post,
nor do you question the source (The Atlantic)
nor provide ANY counterpoint to anything contained within the quoted article.
If any reasonable Human Being were asked to decide between the two of you which one was behaving like a "Troll" based on the evidence presented above,
the choice would be clear.
You will know them by their WORKS.
MjolnirTime
(1,800 posts)usGovOwesUs3Trillion
(2,022 posts)Personal attacks are against DU rules.
Response to usGovOwesUs3Trillion (Reply #17)
woo me with science This message was self-deleted by its author.
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)This poster's transparency page reflects that this is his MO at DU.
Matariki
(18,775 posts)JURY RESULTS
A randomly-selected Jury of DU members completed their review of this alert at Sat Jun 8, 2013, 08:08 PM, and voted 3-3 to LEAVE IT ALONE.
Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Close call, but not over the line.
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
L0oniX
(31,493 posts)Electric Monk
(13,869 posts)http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2973668
I've been watching you make fools of yourselves for years. You haven't changed a bit. Jun 07
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2966237
You don't have any merit, Manny. Your sole purpose here is to detract. Jun 07
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2966222
Jerkdrawer? Jun 06
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2960487
you are just the kind of idiot the repigs were fishing for with all this. May 15
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2847554
You are such a hater! Why do you even pretend to be a Democrat? May 14
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2843002
I say you are a fool, and your rhetoric supports that conclusion. Apr 05
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2618576
WillyT
(72,631 posts)
Matariki
(18,775 posts)It's unfortunate. Your post brings the level of discourse down and makes for a toxic environment. If you have any self respect you'll delete your post.
Response to Matariki (Reply #48)
brentspeak This message was self-deleted by its author.
MjolnirTime
(1,800 posts)good ol' brentspite,
what a bizarro world you must live in!
bunnies
(15,859 posts)I voted to hide it. Only one other person agreed. 
At Tue Jun 11, 2013, 02:40 PM an alert was sent on the following post:
Do you truly think those who support the Democratic Party and its President are the disruptors here?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2993297
REASON FOR ALERT:
This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate. (See <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=aboutus#communitystandards" target="_blank">Community Standards</a>.)
ALERTER'S COMMENTS:
Yet another personal attack -- "brentspite"
This person does nothing but post personal attacks and has been banned several times before because of that behavior.
Check out the transparency page.
You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Tue Jun 11, 2013, 02:44 PM, and the Jury voted 2-4 to LEAVE IT.
Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: A couple of trolls calling each other names. Meh.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT and said: Transparency page says it all.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT and said: Lots of this going around DU lately. Nasty, nasty shit. ugh.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.
flvegan
(66,281 posts)L0oniX
(31,493 posts)
?kenny blankenship
(15,689 posts)Last edited Sat Jun 8, 2013, 08:45 PM - Edit history (1)
Maybe we're looking from the wrong angle, and this is actually the Obama Jobs Program?
We've all heard of Militarized Keynesianism before, right, so why not STASIized Keynesianism?
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)help from Congress or the Courts. Naively I thought that if we only elected a Democratic President we could undo the damage. Was I ever wrong. As long as we allow the Ruling Elite to own our government we will not have democracy.
bvar22
(39,909 posts)NOW, the Talking Point DuJour is that it is ALL the fault of Congress.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)can do so much for us. Then the other hand, where the Pres is helpless in doing those things he promised. When he made the promises didnt he realize how horribly helpless he would become.
And what the hell is the excuse for the years 2008 - 2010? Democratic President, Democratic HOR, and a Democratic Senate.
WillyT
(72,631 posts)
KoKo
(84,711 posts)the "Blue Line Specialists" who had the Talking Points and were paid to hunt.
Have a good evening KoKo
L0oniX
(31,493 posts)He was just trying to be nice ...with those who's main agenda was to get rid of him.
Stupid ass corporate dog and pony show political system.
KoKo
(84,711 posts)
treestar
(82,383 posts)But he had to.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)And plez dont bore me with the American people wanted him to step down. Sorry, I know you wont try that crap.
What happened in 2007 after the Cheney administration went to such great lengths to prepare for the "Continuation of Government" should we have some type of disaster? Everything was in place to continue the Cheney government in time of disaster. But in 2007 something drastic happened. Cheney and DimSon lost their bluster. I can see someone telling DimSon to back off but who could tell Cheney to sit down (in your wheelchair) and shut up? Who could have done that?
treestar
(82,383 posts)Are you suggesting Obama got something on them?
So Obama is not going to leave office in 2017?
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)decided to let the masses have their Democratic president and show them that isnt the answer. The fix was in. Immediately upon Pres Obama's inauguration the obstruction began. ANd yes it was a conspiracy.
I think we can all agree that DimSon had very little to do with running the country while president. He wasnt even smart enough to figure out that the cabal maneuvered him into picking Cheney as VP. Now I believe that Cheney was an important cog in the group or cabal that actually ran the country, but it was not like him to be silenced in 2007. Apparently someone had more power than him.
I believe Pres Obama will leave as scheduled. It appears to me that the Ruling Elite are happy enough to change out presidents as long as they have control. Who are the people behind Pres Obama? Financially and intellectually. Looks like Penny Pritzker is part of the financial side.
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)Citizen 1,675,402 begins to look a little too angry or activist, or they pose a threat to a secret or a planned piece of legislation, and it will be no trouble at all to comb through their data and find some reason, somewhere, to call the local officers to check out some violation from 2013. To arrest, or have someone quietly detained or disappeared.
It provides the means for real-time monitoring and pre-emptive silencing of any opposition to the government, even before it has a chance to materialize.
We saw already what the government did to proactively target Occupy. This surveillance program savagely violates the fundamental trust Americans are supposed to have in their representative government. It is deeply disturbing, creepy as hell, and ALL Americans should be standing together now to stop it.
Please also see this important post by TakeaLeftTurn:
"The Mass Surveillance program is to protect the government FROM the people."
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022962685
kenny blankenship
(15,689 posts)If STASI-fied Keynesianism is the only way you can get bipartisan agreement to spend money and stimulate the economy, guess what pragmatic centrist will do?
We're digging foundations for the Information SuperMax Gulag For the 21st Century! (The Information Superhighway from the 20th Century had end up someplace. It couldn't be allowed to just extend ad infinitum and escape control.) Or maybe it's just a big, dark pit to bury something nasty in. We'll find out later.
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)Yup.
ReRe
(12,189 posts)"The problems we face today cannot be solved by the minds that created them." ~~Albert Einstein.
"When the people fear the government, you have tyranny.
When the government fears the people, you have liberty."~~Thomas Jefferson
DissidentVoice
(813 posts)President Obama had already disappointed me that he did not call for rescinding the USA Patriot Act.
If all this that has come out is true, I will be bitterly, bitterly disappointed.
It is like Vladimir Putin using the mechanisms of the KGB and NKVD put in place before him, but just changing the name.
I will be checking just how President Obama is going to explain this. I get e-mails from him now and then but he hasn't sent one out about this.
Right now it seems like "do as I say, not as I do," and Dianne Feinstein's knee-jerk support was most distressing.
ReRe
(12,189 posts)... sign us up to the ICC (International Criminal Court, which GW/Cheney cabal was sure to not sign onto, as they knew they were going into the war criminal business.) PO should have signed up to the ICC first thing after entering office on Jan 20, 2009. Let them take care of the War Criminals. And we could have gone on about our business at rebuilding the country and getting out of the economic mess they left us and the effing world in. Look it, you have do the right thing from the beginning, and if you don't, your mistakes will catch up and haunt you.
But, sadly, he made the choice of a "team of rivals" to surround himself with and who advised him differently. I hope all future Democratic Presidents nix the "team of rivals" route, as it never works out. We have a two-party system. Only one can win the general election.
MNBrewer
(8,462 posts)"Well, as long as a Republican never sits in the Oval office, X will be fine."
That's a TERRIBLE strategy! Guaranteed there will be a Republican in the White House at SOME point in the future. I know it will be because we voters let The Party down and will be OUR fault, but still....
bvar22
(39,909 posts)....as per the secret Power Sharing Agreement of 1992.
Elections, Protection for the Elite 1%, and continuity and ehhancement of Corporate Power are too important to leave up to The People.
stupidicus
(2,570 posts)eom
struggle4progress
(126,157 posts)ProSense
(116,464 posts)"Even if you think Bush and Obama exercised those extraordinary powers responsibly, what makes you think every president would? How can anyone fail to see the huge potential for abuses?"
The RW knows how to sucker people.
Look at the list.
"* A torture program that could be restarted with an executive order "
WTF?
struggle4progress
(126,157 posts)ProSense
(116,464 posts)http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022973979
Imagine the dripping saliva before the reality of the ad.
tblue
(16,350 posts)
They want us scared. 
Douglas Carpenter
(20,226 posts)against most of us - but what happens when we get a government that will not tolerate very much dissent? What happens if or when a really major terrorist strike occurs and the government feels free to clamp down on all suspicious characters and rabble rousers?
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)The horrifying thing about stored surveillance information is that it provides the means for pre-emptive targeting of any citizen even suspected of being a threat to the government, for any reason whatsoever. It provides an entire infrastructure for quietly suppressing dissent or exposure of government malfeasance before it even begins.
This is the infrastructure for fascism
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022973186#post27
The Mass Surveillance program is to protect the government FROM the people
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022962685
mckara
(1,708 posts)I've heard that analogy in the past and it has a degree of validity when we consider our duly elected representatives voted for the Patriot Act overwhelmingly for nearly a decade.
Then I ask you: does our Congress truly represent the voice of the People? The final passage of the ACA made no mention of a public option. Background checks for gun buyers could not pass through the Senate because of a minority of senators objecting despite its popularity with the general public. There are countless examples of approved legislation that thwarts the will of the People.
Congressional legislation reflects the influence of dollars, not the votes of the People, and that phenomenon, alone, permits us to question the legitimacy of All legislation that compromises Constitutional Rights!
L0oniX
(31,493 posts)ReRe
(12,189 posts)What in the hell are The PEOPLE going to do about this? All I can think is we absolutely MUST get a total Democratic Congress in there in 2014. And be sure they are all effing Democrats. Primary out all the DINOs. It could be the last chance this country has to save itself. Seriously, as a heart attack serious. Great OP with the best discussion I've seen yet on this whole mess!
WillyT
(72,631 posts)
truebluegreen
(9,033 posts)Excellent, and truly depressing post.
ProSense
(116,464 posts)http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022974284
Didn't the piece mention something about the NSA being able to read a person's mind?
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)Just over a decade now
WillyT
(72,631 posts)
DirkGently
(12,151 posts)accountable to the people.
Even if anyone is so foolish as to believe these tools and tactics are somehow being leashed to the common good, secrecy ensures it won't stay that way.
CrispyQ
(40,969 posts)Stop acting like the president takes an oath to keep us safe, when his job is to protect and defend the Constitution. Doing so keeps the American project safe. Past generations fought monarchies, slaveholders, and Nazis to win, expand, and protect that project.
K&R
blkmusclmachine
(16,149 posts).
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)That has grown up since World War II and metastasized since 9/11.
It is sad that this crucial issue that transcends partisan politics gets so obfuscated by the "Obama can do no wrong" and "Obama can do no right" factions.
lhooq
(35 posts)Comrade Grumpy, you make a good point, one that seems sadly absent in much of the discussion here.
I might add that our national security state has historically received much assistance from liberal Democrats. For example, in 1952 President Harry Truman authorized the creation of the National Security Agency, those friendly folks whose people and computers do the surveillance. And in 1980 President Carter reinstituted Selective Service and draft registration.
What we are seeing, I think, are the national security state people regaining their footing, having briefly lost their raison d'etre in the early 1990s with the Soviet collapse. Enter "terrorism" to the rescue.
this applies to the Supreme Court. The Constitution is merely a piece of paper. It can not/does not exist on its own. It is the people who make a government and we are totally dependant on these people to govern by the Constitution. We have no guarantee that they will honor, defend and follow the Constitution other than on the promise of their word. We are at the mercy of all who govern but in most cases the Supreme Court is suppose to be our ultimate defender/protector. They above all, are suppose to protect us/our rights as granted by the Constitution against the other branches of government. Heaven help us when honor and honesty are lost to all branches of government.
midnight
(26,624 posts)
Skittles
(171,716 posts)I want these naysayers to pull their heads out and SEE WHAT IS HAPPENING
pnwmom
(110,261 posts)This all became doable with the first networks of computers. And it's not going away as long as we have them. We could destroy Obama because of this, and let the Ron Paul's and the Jeb Bush's take over. And all of this would come roaring right back.
As long as the technology exists, it can be abused by any administration now or in the future.
nradisic
(1,362 posts)I am so disappointed. The President had done some great things, but the drone program, not closing Guantanamo, no transparency and massive secrecy, plus now this NSA shit. NO!
Progressives need to stand up and force the President to do the right thing.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)It explains why we must watch out because we are headed toward dictatorship. It is very clear at this point.
I don't necessarily think there is any sort of plot to force us into a dictatorship, but rather the way is being prepared whether those preparing it realize it or not.
The intention to create the prerequisites for a transition to a dictatorship is not necessary. It doesn't make any difference what the motivations behind these programs is. They lead to a dictatorship.
We have very little time to turn this around. It is possible that we won't be able to change course.
And that is sad.
I have read posts on DU suggesting that the whistleblowers in these scandals are the traitors. But I disagree. It is those who created these programs, whatever their motives, who are giving aid and comfort to the enemy of freedom and who are leading us toward a dictatorship.
The people who created these programs have betrayed our Constitution and the American people, not the whistleblowers. American does not exist without the freedoms guaranteed in the Bill of Rights. And these programs destroy those freedoms.
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)woo me with science
(32,139 posts)
Turbineguy
(40,076 posts)This is what they wanted. People elected them.
