So Bradley Manning is a traitor, but Edward Snowden is a hero?

[Uzair]

Am I getting that right? Bradley Manning exposes the crimes of the Bush administration, and people regard him has a traitor who put people in danger. Edward Snowden exposes the NON CRIMES of the Obama Administration (Sorry! No matter how you feel about it, Obama did NOT break any laws), and people sing his praises.

This is Democratic Underground, right? Because sometimes I wonder. It smells like a lot of hypocrisy to me. People are OK with the government doing all kinds of horrible shit to people in OTHER parts of the world. But when the government does something to Americans, well then, that can't stand! Only foreigners can be subjected to warrantless wiretapping and the like.

What kills me even more about this is that what the NSA did here is not even all that. They didn't record actual conversations. All they did was collect data on when calls were made and for how long.

And here's what REALLY kills me the most. We voluntarily put our shit out there every single day. Twitter, facebook, google, linkedin, it's all over the place. If you have a facebook account I can probably find out your phone number, where you live, where you work, shit, I'd probably even find your credit card number out there somewhere. We do this shit every day, without batting an eye. And NOW that the OBAMA administration is doing something relatively MINOR compared to all the data CORPORATIONS collect on you ALL THE TIME, it's OUTRAGEOUS!

And here's the final bit: All this anger towards the NSA, towards the government, towards Obama, What about Verizon? Is anybody pissed at THEM? They're the ones who didn't object to any of this, they're the ones that you PAY MONEY to so you can have your phone number. Not a single bit of outrage towards the companies that handed this information over in the first place.

Ultimately, this is poutrage. Old news. Fake, media driven, hyped up bullshit. It's scandal after scandal after scandal now. I think I've figured it out. This is how they're trying to bring Obama down. Blocking everything he tries to do didn't work for them. Trying to torpedo the economy didn't work for them. Now they're going the fake media hyped scandal route. And you know what? It's working. All thanks to the gullible, easily manipulated populace who are so quick to turn on the government in one breath while uploading a geo tagged picture of their front yard with the house number and car license plate visible to facebook in the next breath.

[marmar]

1. Huh?

[MannyGoldstein]

2. I suspect that most folks feel the same way about both.

Love 'em, hate 'em, or not sure.

[The Link]

3. What?

[JI7]

4. i don't think either of them are heroes

[cynatnite]

13. Yep. n/t

[treestar]

5. They do not care about anything but having an excuse

to claim the President is terrible - it's the same posters who do the same thing over every issue. They have no intent to look at the underlying issue - Obama, bad, that's all they care about.

But I do think most of them are consistent in the support of Julian/Bradley/Eddie. They think this nation has no right to security. It should be all freedom and no security with no balance. One poster preferred ten more 911s than to the database of phone calls! Well at least that was an attempt to be consistent!

[Andy823]

8. I agree.

The same posters, and a whole lot more trolls! What I don't understand is it's pretty obvious that lately there are a lot more right wing trolls on the board who have only posted negative things about the president and his administration. Hell they don't even try and hide their hate. I can remember when someone that was so obvious was lucky to last a day now they seem actually have followers!

[graham4anything]

19. +a million. Thanks for your great post! Thank you very much for having the courage to say it.

[uponit7771]

30. +1

[G_j]

33. They, they , they...

whoever "they" are, you know their motives, their vey thoughts even.
amazing!

[ForgoTheConsequence]

6. What?

I have yet to hear anyone who thinks Manning was a traitor call Snowden a "hero". Are we just making up stuff and creating conflict in our heads at this point?

[Iggo]

14. Yes.

[Recursion]

7. To the first approximation, people seem to feel the same about both

I mean, that's just my straw poll of poster's I'm familiar with, but the Manning fault line seems to hit Snowden just as it does most other issues here.

[Union Scribe]

9. Failboat.

Ahoy, Captain Uzair.

?1318992465

[Aerows]

25. That made me burst out laughing

and I know it was an immature reaction, but that was funny.

[ZombieHorde]

10. I know, right? Don't get me started on those who

love Gandhi but hate MLK.

[napoleon_in_rags]

11. No, no.

Bradley Manning was an unknown, he sort of raised the question that things were messed up behind the scenes, giving the idea that he saw a few bad things, and leaked them. So we gave the govt. The benefit of the doubt on it, along with the assumption that the mess ups were rare, and Manning should have gone through proper channels.

Then we saw this:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1017&pid=124063
Where he explicitly says that the evil, the corruption, the abuses are pandemic, and that he was in a position to see all of it, in a top intelligence role, not a low level role like Manning.

Plus the whole picture. The $200,000 Hawaii lifestyle with high priced ladies and the rest that's given to these intelligence workers, which this guy traded for a prison cell because what he saw was so bad...He describes it as American government building a prison system for the entire US population... And just the thought of these assholes doing that in their paradise. Its just over the top.

No, this has an impact. At this point I either need to hear about the extra-terrestrial infiltration of the populace that's causing this EXTREME intelligence gathering effort, or I am forced to conclude that it is entirely about controlling Americans. Some guys with some gun powder in a pressure cooker just doesn't cut it as far as a threat big enough to justify all this.

[Revanchist]

12. The main difference in my eyes

It appears that Snowden only released information concerning the activities of the NSA while Manning did a massive data dump without knowing the content of everything that he made public. I can see Snowden being tried in a federal court in the same manner as Ellsberg was because they both released classified information but because Manning is a member of the Armed Forces he has to face that justice system which has stricter standards than that for civilians.

[CakeGrrl]

15. He's no hero.

A well-compensated leaker/saboteur is more like it. There was no exposure of law-breaking here.

[Abq_Sarah]

17. No exposure of law breaking?

Where's the due process? Where is the probable cause to collect data on every person in this country?

Just because someone signed off on it doesn't make it legal.

[AnalystInParadise]

16. Yep

Manning is a traitor that betrayed everyone, he never read the 750,000 documents he released for all he knew they contained the Colonels original recipe as well as the 23 flavors in Dr. Pepper. He basically released a ton of intel with checking any of it, Snowden on the other hand
restricted what he released to details of a program, releasing no names, only capabilities. So yes manning traitor Snowden hero......it the simplest differentiation I have ever ever made in my life.

[ret5hd]

26. so your most compelling arguments...

are corporate secrets???

[Spider Jerusalem]

18. Manning didn't know what he was releasing, and couldn't have

he released tens of thousands of documents that he couldn't possibly have known the contents of and whose disclosure had potential serious negative consequences for hundreds or thousands of people. (Leaked diplomatic cables naming intelligence assets, for instance.) Snowden knew exactly what he was doing and exactly what the information he was releasing was. And no, the NSA didn't just collect data on when calls were made and for how long; they collected geolocation data as well. Voluntary disclosure to a contracted party as part of the provision of a contracted service is expected and normal; involuntary disclosure of such information to third parties and government agencies isn't.

[graham4anything]

20. If people were consistent then

all those that didn't like that the info on Valerie Plame was released, should not like the two listed in the OP doing what
either of them did

or anyone else.

When my faucet leaks, I call a trained technician to fix the leak. I don't like leaks, they end up flooding the home
and cause cause with every other aspect of my home. Chaos causes mega problems throughout everything.

And besides, when I call someone, I want it to be someone I personally picked to come and fix the leak.

These anonymous people that spam my email or knock unsoliticited, well, I didn't ask them, and who gave them the
keys to the door? That is what I don't understand.

I remember on the Pee Wee Herman Playhouse show, he had a funny bit about unsolicited salesmen knocking on the door.

Thanks but no thanks.

I myself did not like that Valerie Plame's info was leaked. It put her life in danger. Not everything is meant to be released.

After all, had the founding fathers info been released, England would still own the USA and there would have never been a bill of
rights in the first place.

You never give the playbook to the other team.

Just my opinion. Feel free to disagree, being that we are on an international open and free board here and anyone who
facebooks has given away far far far far more info and I think they don't even know they did that til I have been pointing it
out the last few months(and many other people are picking up on it).

Of course one could call Jenny... it's 867-5309
(that's a songtitle btw from the moldie oldie days of yesteryear.
Everyone knew Jenny's number

[burnodo]

21. are you related to graham4anything?

just curious

[graham4anything]

24. Where you for the release of Valerie Plame's name?

[treestar]

28. You'll never get an answer on that

They haven't figured out the talking points yet.

[PDittie]

22. A bit too selective

for a valid premise here. That you have not returned to defend it since the OP is... telling.

[NoPasaran]

23. A fair number of people on DU think Bradley Manning walks on water

He sittith at the right hand of Julian Assange, blessed be His name.

[vi5]

27. I never thought I'd say this...

But I think I've seen the day where the DU cult of personality for Obama has become as bad and if possible even more craven than the Free Republic cult of personality for Bush was. The level and degree to which people on here spin and slander and fight against anyone anywhere saying anything bad about Obama or doing anything that might expose or tarnish his status, regardless of how they would react or feel if it was a Republican doing the same thing is just off the charts.

[treestar]

29. Is that similar

To the extent to which people on a democratic board fox the president is always wrong. They are just as guilty. They won't address why Valerie Plame is different.

Of course bush did do things Obama stopped. But considering that factor ruins the desired Obama bad narrative.

Libertarian trolls. Our du tolerance of those to the far left lets those be able to fit in

[marmar]

31. "du tolerance of those to the far left"

Jeezus. So DU is only for centrists? Is that what you're saying?

[treestar]

36. It's for people on the left

But that is what allows Libertarian trolls to fit in. They can claim to be on the left and not the right.

They stay out of economic issues, since they are right wing on that.

[G_j]

34. that was quite telling. nt

[vi5]

38. So because he stopped some things..

We're supposed to overlook the ones he continued and expanded?

I'm the furthest thing from a libertarian and have been a die hard, primary voting, money donating, envelope stuffing, full ticket party line voting Democrat for 30 years. And this acceptance (not even getting into the out and out cheerleading) of things that would and should otherwise horrify Democrats/liberals simply because Obama does it, is pathetic.

Carry on, if that's where your head and heart is at.

[malaise]

32. This

And NOW that the OBAMA administration is doing something relatively MINOR compared to all the data CORPORATIONS collect on you ALL THE TIME, it's OUTRAGEOUS!

People across the globe have to spend money every year to protect themselves from corporations invading their communications tools and there is no outrage.

[Whisp]

37. Excellent.

I've been trying to catch up and piece things together as well as I can with all the hyper here and what you wrote is what I came to believe in the end.

We have got to be the silliest forum out there - this type of shit happens continuously - DU has become the Ministry of Silly Talks for too long now.