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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region Forumshi from europe, i "love" watching "democrats" apologise for fascism!
hi all!
havent posted here in years.
figured i would check out how this hope we could believe in was doing.
im pretty stoked to see all these "democratic activists" making excuses for fascism, blaming the messenger, seeing conspiracies, the cognitive dissonance is deafening.
you can make excuses all you want, but if presidents can use executive privilege to break national and international law, can trample on the constitution, obama sure as hell could of used it to end this.
by the way, there was a pretty cool study done recently, If you pay them money, partisans will tell you the truth. why not google that?
has anyone actually looked at the prism slides?
200 billion pieces of data collected every month, and stored permanently, ready to be "rewound" when the government decides you are a target.
and a large part of that data is from targeting your allies, and much of it in europe.
has anyone actually stopped to think what this means for america, when european companies stop using american tech companies, are banned from storing data in the usa by the EU?
all these companies that cooperated with the NSA have broken european laws on data protection, and probably human rights laws too, the european commission has fined companies to the tune of billions of dollars for breaking european law in the past.
if the democrats are no different from the republicans, and you do nothing to stop this, the USA will become a pariah state.
how do you think it looks to the world when a whistleblower feels safer in china than in the usa?
have you heard the term "little eichmanns" before?
at least the german people had some excuse, but with modern communications, and access to the free press in foreign countries the american people have no excuse.
how will history view you now?
what action have you taken?
what are you all going to tell your children and grandchildren?
maybe its best this post is just deleted, and you can all go watch the opening number of the tony's award show again.
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el_bryanto
(11,804 posts)So I can't watch it again.
It must be pleasing to you to be so morally pure while all around you are dishonest fascist bastards.
Bryant
warrant46
(2,205 posts)Most of whom here are drinking the Kool Aid. A long time ago Pres Johnson (D) and his acolytes lied the US into a War and killed millions--when exposed the acolytes attacked the messengers
europe, eh?
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)
H2O Man
(78,935 posts)Or am I thinking of another one?
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)H2O Man
(78,935 posts)So Europe is a county in Texas. It all makes perfect sense now.
freshwest
(53,661 posts)
sulphurdunn
(6,891 posts)both Lebanon and Damascus are in Virginia. I know I was in Lebanon last week and Damascus yesterday.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)sulphurdunn
(6,891 posts)is Virginia Class nuclear powered attack submarine. 
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)sulphurdunn
(6,891 posts)zero. When will they build a nuclear powered mobius roller coaster in Virginia and call it Minnesota?
ReRe
(12,183 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)the USSR.
ReRe
(12,183 posts)I thought you was naming cities/towns in Texas with names like foreign countries/capitols. Is there not an Athens, TX?
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)freshwest
(53,661 posts)
Athens is a city in Henderson County, Texas, in the United States. As of the 2010 census, the city population was 12,710. It is the county seat of Henderson County[3].
The city also calls itself the "Black-Eyed Pea Capital of the World."
Athens was selected as one of the first 'Certified Retirement Communities' in Texas.[4]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athens,_Texas
Think I oughta take a visit.
ReRe
(12,183 posts)... I lived in Texas about 200 years ago 
and could have sworn that there was an Athens, TX. Does look enticing, doesn't it? Don't trust it. Texas is as big as a country and living there feels pretty much like you're LIVING in another country too. (Just kidding, my Texas friends.)
Tanuki
(16,404 posts)"By a fountain back in Rome
I fell in love with you
In a small cafe in Athens
You said you loved me too
(G.J)
And it was April in Paris
When I first held you close to me
(T.W)
Rome, Georgia
Athens, Texas
And Paris, Tennessee
No we're not the jet set
We're the old Chevrolet set
There's no Riviera
In Festus, Missouri
And you won't find Onassis
In Mullinville, Kansas
No, we're not the jet set
We're the old Chevrolet set
But ain't we got love?
No we're not the jet set
We're the old Chevrolet set
Our steak and martinis
Is draft beer with weiners
Our Bach and Tschaikowsky
Is Haggard and Husky
No we're not the jet set
We're the old Chevrolet set
But ain't we got love?
No, we're not the jet set
We're the old Chevrolet set
The Jones and Wynette set
Ain't the flamin' suzette set
FADES-
Our Bach and Tschaikowsky
Is Haggard n'...(fades out)
(song was actually written by Bobby Braddock)
freshwest
(53,661 posts)Aerows
(39,961 posts)
Horse with no Name
(34,229 posts)LOL. Trust me.
Just an aside, do you know that there was a family farm in Athens, TX that had been in this particular family for generations?
Well back in the 90's, the Bush family thought that particular piece of land would be nice to hunt on...so, the obliging city of Athens annexed the land and then sold it to the Bush's when they realized that they didn't need it...
Raster
(21,010 posts)...instead the Bush* family friends built a baseball stadium, and good ol' G-Dubya*, the 2% "owner", made $16 million off the deal.
"It's what you know about who you blow."
freshwest
(53,661 posts)As far as the cozy little land grab, that's an factor in every state. Some of them are done that way, or with the alleged 'non-profits' snagging land and displacing the people there. All because they're working in the public interest - NOT. As old as stealing from the native Americans, and just as vicious. Rich folks are smart. Yup.
OilemFirchen
(7,288 posts)Russia, too. Still.
You may be confused because one's kinda south of Delaware, wile the other's a bit northeast of London.
dmr
(28,705 posts)
Aerows
(39,961 posts)
truebluegreen
(9,033 posts)I love it.
<sigh> I wish I was this clever and/or quick-witted...and well-traveled. Only foreign place I've ever been to is Manhattan, Montana.
ReRe
(12,183 posts)... Climax, Kentucky.
Tanuki
(16,404 posts)ReRe
(12,183 posts)
jdadd
(1,320 posts)AAO
(3,300 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)AAO
(3,300 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)AAO
(3,300 posts)
kentauros
(29,414 posts)Hamburg, Texas
Cologne, Texas
Dresden, Texas
Hanover, Texas
Mannheim, Texas
Brunswick, Texas
Oldenburg, Texas
Heidelberg, Texas
Resources:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_in_Germany_by_population
http://www.tshaonline.org/handbook/online/articles/png02
AAO
(3,300 posts)
kentauros
(29,414 posts)I do know that we took in POWs during WWII and some of them didn't want to go back to Germany because they liked it here so much. Plus, Texas POW camps treated them better than in other places.
However, if you read the second source link, you'll see that Germans have been coming here since the 1830s
name not needed
(11,665 posts)
OrwellwasRight
(5,312 posts)H2O Man
(78,935 posts)is found in rural Chenango County in upstate New York. More, South New Berlin is too (a few miles to the south of New Berlin, as the crow flies).
Both are very European.
arely staircase
(12,482 posts)nt
freshwest
(53,661 posts)Hell's Half Acre is an area of rough elevations located seventeen miles southeast of Marathon in northeastern Brewster County.
arely staircase
(12,482 posts)
Amonester
(11,541 posts)Yeah... right...
They've been spied upon since WWII every time they pick up the phone!
kentauros
(29,414 posts)
Monkie
(1,301 posts)if you want to ask me what i feel about the use security camera's in the UK by the police, ask me?
but the main difference here is, the security camera's are not being controlled from a foreign country, this is a internal matter for the UK, UK citizens can vote for parties and politicians that oppose this, start a political party to address this issue,they can challenge this in the courts, take it to the european court of human rights, can protest the storing of data from this system in the UK courts, and can use european wide data protection laws to challenge the storage.
all of which have absolutely nothing to do with a foreign government, your governments, limitless spying and permanent storage of data on ALL the people in countries that are supposed to be your allies, which is against european law.
your country and especially the american corporations that collaborated in this are breaking european law.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)of fascism, so we deeply respect your opinion on this.
P.S. Do you really think your government isn't complicit in this?
Monkie
(1,301 posts)true true, so who is better at recognising apologists for fascism, the stasi could only dream of the power and control this "democratic" state wields over its citizens and the world.
and yes, my government is complicit in this, its a right wing government btw, but its a relationship of puppet and master.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)would have been tolerated by the stasi.
Explain to me how I'm wrong.
GoneFishin
(5,217 posts)Which is a scenario some are ok with and some of us are not.
aquart
(69,014 posts)May your brief stay be a happy one.
Yes, people here have disagreements on issues. Because we practice democracy.
wilsonbooks
(972 posts)Just as has happened many times in history. Do you think that our country is immune from fascism?
aquart
(69,014 posts)Art_from_Ark
(27,247 posts)It would have helped them keep better tabs on dissidents.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Art_from_Ark
(27,247 posts)You were talking about the Stasi and how a web site like this wouldn't have been tolerated in East Germany. But it was the Stasi's modus operandi to set up phony dissident groups to keep track of people who didn't like the regime.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Art_from_Ark
(27,247 posts)it still would have been tolerated by the Stasi as a means of keeping tabs on dissidents.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)You can of course, support your premise with peer-reviewed historical evidence and not simply post hoc ergo prompter hoc examples, yes?
My own reading (The East German Secret Police by John O. Koehler, Anatomy of a Dictatorship, by Mary Fulbrook & Rebuilding the East German Myth by Alan Nothnagle) all imply that the STASI rarely, if ever, infiltrated anti-government groups, but rather merely arrested the two top leaders with the expectations that one of the two would invariably break during prolonged interrogation giving the names of their peers; much more effective and efficient than trolling boards. 
Art_from_Ark
(27,247 posts)as well as from a German teacher who managed to get out of Halle during the DDR days.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Remember that East Germany is the place that shot people for the crime of trying to escape.
These claims are hyperbole.
DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)It's not the Indy 500, but the track that the race is run on.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)If you really believed half the crap you're saying, you would close your account this second.
DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)If you have something other than insults or accusations of lying, post it. Otherwise, you're just another name-caller attempting to fuck the Constitution with mindless snark.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)by TPTB.
By that definition, so is Occupy Wall Street and every single political and activist organization in existence.
Which tends to show that, no, totalitarian states don't tolerate places like DU.
There's no DU that operates in North Korea. Nothing like it in Saudi Arabia or Syria.
DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)I think it may be true, but you won't find me saying that anywhere except for this post I'm typing now.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)It's not the Indy 500, but the track that the race is run on.
So, DU is a tool of oppression just waiting to fall in the wrong hands.
The problem with this cockamamie theory is that sites like DU don't exist in totalitarian states. Because in those states it's a crime to criticize the government or seek its removal via peaceful elections.
DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)I obviously didn't read very carefully. You were talking about DU, and I thought you were referring to the data collection/spy apparatus itself. I was responding to something you didn't actually type. I'm sorry about that.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Response to geek tragedy (Reply #201)
Egalitarian Thug This message was self-deleted by its author.
DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)I misread the original post I was responding to and ended up on an attack vector I shouldn't have been on. And again, I"m sorry for introducing confusion where it didn't need to be.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)miscommunication and resolved it amicably.
Thanks for trying to start a fight by butting in and throwing gratutous personal attacks though--hope it makes you feel better about yourself!
AAO
(3,300 posts)Response to DisgustipatedinCA (Reply #194)
DisgustipatedinCA This message was self-deleted by its author.
jtuck004
(15,882 posts)OilemFirchen
(7,288 posts)Now I'd like to hear some mewling about Nixon's raw deal.
C'mon, don't disappoint.
Laelth
(32,017 posts)It's embarrassing, really. Makes us look pretty bad.
-Laelth
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Sometimes, the best way to refute stupidity is to imitate it.
whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts) geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)of 9/11 deserved to be burned alive.
No decent human being uses it.
Monkie
(1,301 posts)The use of "Eichmann" as an archetype stems from Hannah Arendt's notion of the banality of evil. Arendt wrote in her 1963 book Eichmann in Jerusalem: A Report on The Banality of Evil that aside from a desire for improving his career, Eichmann showed no trace of anti-Semitism or psychological damage. She called him the embodiment of the "banality of evil" as he appeared at his trial to have an ordinary and common personality and displayed neither guilt nor hatred. She suggested that this most strikingly discredits the idea that the Nazi criminals were manifestly psychopathic and fundamentally different from ordinary people.
eichmann was a "ordinary" man and pencil pusher, but he still held responsibility for the crimes of the state he worked for.
so you can try to make me responsible for 9/11 all you like, but maybe arguments as to why you are perfectly fine with your goverment collecting everything i say or do on the internet in case i turn out at some point in the future to be a terrorist??
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)1. Adolf Eichmann was not an 'ordinary man' or a 'pencil pusher.' He was one of the principal architects of the Holocaust. He personally sent hundreds of thousands of Jews to their deaths. He bragged about how his efficient system allowed the murder of millions of Jews.
Eichmann was so dedicated to exterminating Jews that he got angry with Heinrich Himmler for being too soft on them.
2. He was not held responsible "for the crimes of the state he worked for." See #1 above, he was found guilty for his own actions.
3. The phrase "little Eichmanns" was coined by the loathsome Ward Churchill in order to justify the murders that took place on 9/11. So, you're using the words of a cheerleader for mass murder--making yourself the one closer to Eichmann.
There is simply no argument to be made that the Pentagon personnel killed on September 11 fill that bill. The building and those inside comprised military targets, pure and simple. As to those in the World Trade Center . . .
Well, really. Let's get a grip here, shall we? True enough, they were civilians of a sort. But innocent? Gimme a break. They formed a technocratic corps at the very heart of America's global financial empire – the "mighty engine of profit" to which the military dimension of U.S. policy has always been enslaved – and they did so both willingly and knowingly. Recourse to "ignorance" – a derivative, after all, of the word "ignore" – counts as less than an excuse among this relatively well-educated elite. To the extent that any of them were unaware of the costs and consequences to others of what they were involved in – and in many cases excelling at – it was because of their absolute refusal to see. More likely, it was because they were too busy braying, incessantly and self-importantly, into their cell phones, arranging power lunches and stock transactions, each of which translated, conveniently out of sight, mind and smelling distance, into the starved and rotting flesh of infants. If there was a better, more effective, or in fact any other way of visiting some penalty befitting their participation upon the little Eichmanns inhabiting the sterile sanctuary of the twin towers, I'd really be interested in hearing about it.
Learn some fucking history, and avoid quoting those who got an erection from seeing 3000 people die a horrible death.
Monkie
(1,301 posts)the phrase was not coined by ward churchill, admittedly i had to look up who coined it, but it was not ward churchill.
do you actually have anything to say about your governments limitless spying on your friends in europe and the permanent storage of everything, in case at some point in the future one of them might be a terrorist?
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)that assumes facts without evidence.
I concede that the phrase "little Eichmanns' was merely popularized by a cheerleader for mass murder.
Which does not change the fact that it's astonishingly ignorant and hateful to label people as equivalent to Adolf Eichmann.
So, to the extent you're prone to ignorantly and recklessly make Nazi comparisons, you are the leftwing European version of our Glenn Beck.
Monkie
(1,301 posts)I can assure you that this isn't about spying on the American people. This is about having the data available so that if there are suspicions about foreign persons or persons that have connections with terrorist organizations that we can connect the dots
the quote from senator al franken seems pretty clear to me, that quote comes from this forum, and nobody has actually denied it is true, have you looked at the prism slides, all european countries are on there as being spied on, nobody has come out to say those slides are not real, nobody.
it may not matter to americans, or "democratic" americans but most of the worlds population are foreigners, your allies in the world are foreigners, and i think its safe to say that 99.9999999999999999999999999999999% of these foreigners are not terrorists and never will be.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)is it limitless? hardly.
emulatorloo
(46,154 posts)It is very magical to me!
uponit7771
(93,524 posts)Monkie
(1,301 posts)Donald Trump: Edward Snowden ‘a bad guy’
Cha
(318,411 posts)on any subject. I can form my opinions on the facts being presented.
marions ghost
(19,841 posts)He seems to be equivocating pretty badly----
http://www.politico.com/story/2013/06/edward-snowden-nsa-leak-donald-trump-92483.html
Edward Snowden, the man who says he leaked national security documents is a “bad guy,” Donald Trump said Monday.
“I didn’t like him, to me he looks like a grandstander,” Trump said on Fox News.
Trump added that there are “no winners” in the recent revelations of the National Security Agency monitoring program.
“I don’t like people like (Snowden) because there could be a national security concern, and there probably is,” he said. “At the same time, what he’s doing is wrong and I think also what the government is doing is wrong.”
“They’re going way too far, at the same time you never like a guy like this.”
(PHOTOS: 10 famous whistleblowers)
Trump said it’s hard to trust the government right now and questioned how the monitoring program will affect U.S. relations with other countries.
“Well it’s very hard to trust (the government) right now. If you really look at it, what’s going on with other nations, how are they going to trust us anymore?” Trump said.
brush
(61,033 posts)But something about the timing of this whole Snowden/NSA stuff doesn't quite seem right. Coming on the heels of all these other so called scandals makes me think that there may be others behind the scenes orchestrating the re-emergence of a this six-year-old story.
Now I'm certainly not in favor of a country spying on it's own citizens, and the Obama administration certainly should have replaced all the repug moles and ditched the Patriot Act crap left over from Cheney/Bush, but many of us here have posted before how repugs seem to gin up scandals in the second term of dem presidents to keep "shit" going so:
a. the administration is bogged down in trying to defend itself from scandal after scandal, month after month (we've
seen this movie before — it's called "Bill Clinton's Second Term"
b. nothing legislatively gets done about the economy or jobs
c. this in turn takes the spotlight off the repugs/party of "no" obstructionism
d. if the scandals can be extended long enough it helps the repugs in the mid-terms and maybe even 2016 when
Hillary is sure to be the favorite to win (maybe not if she/the dems can be stained enough by this)
Anyway, I say let's watch this closely and see how it plays out. Like I said, something smells about this whole "Snowden being a lone wolf-acting out of patriotism after only three months at this highly sensitive job thing" (wonder how he got the job in the first place, and then become "radicalized" in just 3 months).
If it turns out that his motives are entirely pure, fine, but let's get real, that's hardly ever the case.
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)and Michael Moore both thinking he's a hero? Stop digging - your OP was ridiculous hyperbole and you don't like getting called out on it.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)
Brickbat
(19,339 posts)Your incisive questions have really caused me to reexamine my priorities and actions.
Number23
(24,544 posts)
DU has been showing its whole, entire ass this week.
MADem
(135,425 posts)RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)It makes me sick to see these Democrats roll over and play dead.
Ash_F
(5,861 posts)Maybe now they will stop being mean to us on Fox! 
Aerows
(39,961 posts)than kowtow to the likes of an authoritarian state.
Ash_F
(5,861 posts)That's the sad part. Losing your principles AND losing elections in one fell swoop.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)I don't lose my sense of principles just because someone is in office with a (D) behind their name.
if the democrats are no different from the republicans, and you do nothing to stop this, the USA will become a pariah state.
how do you think it looks to the world when a whistleblower feels safer in china than in the usa?
have you heard the term "little eichmanns" before?
at least the german people had some excuse, but with modern communications, and access to the free press in foreign countries the american people have no excuse.
...you checked in after all these years to be condescending and post misinformation?
Monkie
(1,301 posts)you people were the last hope that america has, so i thought i would check the reaction here, and was shocked to see this place turn into freeperville.
ProSense
(116,464 posts)Europe "apologise for fascism!"
By Andrew Osborn
LONDON (Reuters) - Britain said eavesdropping by its GCHQ security agency was legal and no threat to privacy but would not confirm or deny reports it received data from a secret U.S. intelligence programme.
British and U.S. newspapers have suggested that the U.S. National Security Agency handed over information on Britons gathered under the PRISM programme.
In his first remarks on the subject, Foreign Secretary William Hague said the two countries did share intelligence but that GCHQ's work was governed by a very strong legal framework.
"The idea that in GCHQ people are sitting around working out how to circumvent a UK law with another agency in another country is fanciful," Hague told BBC TV on Sunday.
"It is nonsense".
- more -
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2013/06/09/uk-usa-security-europe-idUKBRE95805N20130609
Monkie
(1,301 posts)its a clever little lie thats already been exposed, if america offers the information to the UK, then the UK hasnt asked for it.
but its important to note, i was NOT complaining about the UK governments spying on its citizens on a US forum, my outrage is over your government spying on me and everyone, everyone, and we are supposed to be friends?
DevonRex
(22,541 posts)Each member of the UKUSA alliance is officially assigned lead responsibility for intelligence collection and analysis in different parts of the globe.
Australia
Australia hunts for communications originating in Indochina, Indonesia, and southern China.
Canada
Formerly the northern portions of the former Soviet Union and conducting sweeps of all communications traffic that could be picked up from embassies around the world. In the post-Cold War era, a greater emphasis has been placed on monitoring satellite, radio and cellphone traffic originating from Central and South America, primarily in an effort to track drugs and non-aligned paramilitary groups in the region.
New Zealand
The Waihopai Valley Facility—base of the New Zealand branch of the ECHELON Program.
New Zealand is responsible for the western Pacific. Listening posts in the South Island at Waihopai Valley just south-west of Blenheim, and on the North Island at Tangimoana. The Anti-Bases Campaign holds regular protests in order to have the listening posts closed down.
United Kingdom
urope, Africa, and European Russia.
United States
Monitors most of Latin America, Asia, Asiatic Russia, and northern China.
DevonRex
(22,541 posts)Onyx is a Swiss intelligence gathering system maintained by the Federal Intelligence Service - Nachrichtendienst des Bundes (NDB). The costs of the system are not public, but the amount of 100 million Swiss francs has been mentioned several times,[1] in particular in 2000 by Werner Marti, SP deputy to the National Council of Switzerland. In March 2005, journalist Urs Paul Engeler estimated that the costs (hidden in various military construction budgets) reached 400 million CHF.[2] The Onyx system was launched in 2000, originally under the name SATOS-3 (the SATOS 1 and 2 systems were started in 1992, in particular to intercept faxes), and was completed in late 2005.
Purpose
The goal of the system is to monitor both civil and military communications, such as telephone, fax or Internet traffic, carried by satellite. Onyx uses lists of keywords to filter the intercepted content for information of interest, and the choice of keywords by the intelligence community must be approved by an independent commission. The system is not supposed to monitor internal communications; however, the monitoring of a communication between a person in Switzerland and someone in another country is allowed.[3] The Swiss Federal Council has indicated that Onyx is not linked to other foreign systems such as ECHELON; according to the Council, the confusion and rumours about this issue are due to the sale by Swisscom to Verestar (now SES Americom) of the ground satellite communication station of Leuk (next to the Onyx site) in 2000.[4] The use of the system is controlled by an independent control authority composed of members of the federal administration.[5]
maindawg
(1,151 posts)I see. Do you have a caps button on that European computer? Because if you want to get any respect you should at least attempt to write in a readable manner. The NSA is out of control. The CIA is behind all these machinations and the patriot act is the law. The president can nothing about it. Nothing. We had a president in 1963 who attempted to rein in the CIA. We all know how that ended.
When President Obama was first elected and took office, he was informed in a series of high level meeting what he could do and what he could not do as president. I noticed a marked change in his demeanor post meetings. The president is not a king. And the world will always suffer the effects of corruption and greed. We Americans are not greedy and corrupt by nature. We are selfish and ignorant just like you. But we have the biggest guns so we get our way. I am sorry for that.
brush
(61,033 posts)I especially like and agree with the part about the newbie president being informed in high-levels meeting as to what he could and could not do as president.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)road.
DevonRex
(22,541 posts)
BrotherIvan
(9,126 posts)Apologists have said this is nothing to worry about, it's just meta-data, not enough information to be concerned over.
Then you post an article that shows there is enough data that the US can HAND IT OVER TO ANOTHER GOVERNMENT for their own spying purposes.
How the fuck is this not spying on lawful citizens?
I await your answer with bated breath.
ProSense
(116,464 posts)"i checked in here because i remembered the outrage about bush you people were the last hope that america has"
...get your facts straight.
Bush came under attack because he bypassed the FISA court and went directly to intentionally spying on Americans. Bush broke the law (http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022973979).
The last thing we ("you people" need is more bogus Bush to Obama comparisons based on ignorance.
Monkie
(1,301 posts)so now the FISA court rubberstamps collecting everything once every three months.
show me where the FISA court has ever refused the NSA or the other alphabet soups?
ProSense
(116,464 posts)Again, you don't have a grasp of the facts, but your getting cocky.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)
cui bono
(19,926 posts)
AsahinaKimi
(20,776 posts)yeah, that's gotta leave a mark. Goman na hitoga Kirada. Sonna baka na !
freshwest
(53,661 posts)Last edited Tue Jun 11, 2013, 02:23 AM - Edit history (1)
From the era being mentioned:
Fascist critiques[edit]
Drawing on the ideas of Arthur de Gobineau (1816–1882), European fascists decried the supposed degenerating effect of immigration on the racial mix of the American population. The Nazi philosopher Alfred Rosenberg argued that race mixture in the United States made it inferior to countries like Germany, which had a supposedly pure-bred racial stock.[22]
1–2
Anti-Semitism was another factor in these critiques. The belief that America was ruled by a Jewish conspiracy was common in countries ruled by fascists before and during World War II.[22]
1–7 The Jews, the assumed puppet masters behind American plans for world domination, were also seen as using jazz in a crafty plan to eliminate racial distinctions.[22] 1–7 However, despite this belief, Adolf Hitler did not count America as a credible adversary of the Third Reich because of its incoherent racial mix; he saw Americans as a "mongrel race", "half-Judaised" and "half-Negrified".[22] 4–7
In an address to the Reichstag on 11 December 1941, Hitler declared war on the United States and lambasted U.S. President Franklin D. Roosevelt:
"He [Roosevelt] was strengthened in this [political diversion] by the circle of Jews surrounding him, who, with Old Testament-like fanaticism, believe that the United States can be the instrument for preparing another Purim for the European nations that are becoming increasingly anti-Semitic. It was the Jew, in his full Satanic vileness, who rallied around this man [Roosevelt], but to whom this man also reached out".[43]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Americanism#Fascist_critiques
There is an older version:
Degeneracy thesis[edit]
In the mid- to late-eighteenth century, a theory emerged among some European intellectuals that the New World landmasses were inherently inferior to Europe. The so-called "degeneracy thesis" held that climatic extremes, humidity and other atmospheric conditions in America physically weakened both men and animals.[22]:3–19 Some authors such as James W. Ceaser and Philippe Roger, have interpreted this theory as "a kind of prehistory of anti-Americanism."[23][24] and have (in the words of Philippe Roger) been a historical “constant” since the 18th century, or again an endlessly repetitive “semantic block”. Others, like Jean-François Revel, have examined what lay hidden behind this 'fashionable' ideology.[25] Purported evidence for the idea included the smallness of American fauna, dogs that ceased to bark, and venomous plants;[26] one theory put forth was that the New World had emerged from the Biblical flood later than the Old World.[27] Native Americans were also held to be feeble, small, and without ardor.[28]
The theory originated with Comte de Buffon, a leading French naturalist, in his Histoire Naturelle (1766).[28] The French writer Voltaire joined Buffon and others in making the argument.[26] Dutchman Cornelius de Pauw, court philosopher to Frederick II of Prussia became its leading proponent.[23] While Buffon focused on the American biological environment, de Pauw attacked people native to the continent.[27] James Ceaser has noted that the denouncement of America as inferior to Europe was in part motivated by the German government's fear of mass emigration; de Pauw called on to convince the Germans that the new world was inferior. De Pauw is also known to have influenced the philosopher Immanuel Kant in a similar direction.[29]
De Pauw said that the New World was unfit for human habitation because it was, "so ill-favored by nature that all it contains is either degenerate or monstrous." He asserted that, "the earth, full of putrefacation, was flooded with lizards, snakes, serpents, reptiles and insects." Taking a long-term perspective he announced that he was, "certain that the conquest of the New World...has been the greatest of all misfortunes befall mankind." [30]
The theory made it easy to argue that the natural environment of the United States would prevent it from ever producing true culture. Echoing de Pauw, the French Encyclopedist Abbé Raynal wrote in 1770, "America has not yet produced a good poet, an able mathematician, one man of genius in a single art or a single science."[31] The theory was debated and rejected by early American thinkers such as Alexander Hamilton, Benjamin Franklin, and Thomas Jefferson; Jefferson, in his Notes on the State of Virginia (1781), provided a detailed rebuttal of de Buffon from a scientific point of view.[23] Hamilton also vigorously rebuked the idea in Federalist No. 11 (1787).[28]
One critic[who?], citing Raynal's ideas, suggests that it was specifically extended to the English colonies that would become the United States.[32]
Roger suggests that the idea of degeneracy posited a symbolic, as well as a scientific America, that would evolve beyond the original thesis. He argues that Buffon's ideas formed the root of a "stratification of negative discourses" that has recurred throughout the two countries' relationship (and has been matched by persistent anti-Gallic sentiment in the United States).[24]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Americanism#Degeneracy_thesis
olddots
(10,237 posts) MADem
(135,425 posts) freshwest
(53,661 posts)Well, some of our ancestors. May be what their problem with us is, at least it used to be. I just love being talked down to by the biggest promoters of the master race. This is starting to hurt my widdle biddy feelings:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022985622#post140
Makes me feel sorta, uh, that is, excuse me, rebellious. Hey, did I just say that out loud?
Monkie
(1,301 posts)seriously, "you people defending the breaking of international law are wrong"
apologist for for breaking the law, omg, he said you people!?!?!!!
MADem
(135,425 posts)"You people" is a red flag for some of "us people." Annie Romney liked the term...!
But hey, you go on with your bad self...whoever you are!
Monkie
(1,301 posts)i dont tend to follow the thoughts and turns of phrases used by the wife of american right wing politicians, i am interested in politics in general and world events, but there is a limit.
MADem
(135,425 posts)"You people" might want to school yourselves on the vernacular to avoid causing offense, and sounding like the wife of an "american right wing politician."
uppityperson
(116,011 posts)BenzoDia
(1,010 posts)
zeemike
(18,998 posts)Did you mean that to be funny?....or are you really that involved in the market?
Some people are really that one dimensional.
Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)looking glasses, but they're all one-way.
The tension just keeps increasing and people are breaking. Sooner or later the the string is going to snap and won't that be fun?
alcibiades_mystery
(36,437 posts)It's kookoo bananas time on DU.
Isn't "little Eichmanns" what Ward Churchill called the people who happened to be working in the World Trade Center when they were murdered by fanatics?
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Real charmer, that fellow.
Monkie
(1,301 posts)"Little Eichmanns" is a phrase used to describe persons who participate in society in a way that, while on an individual scale may seem relatively innocuous even to themselves, taken collectively create destructive and immoral systems in which they are actually complicit.
alcibiades_mystery
(36,437 posts)about his actions.
If that's your definition, it is a display of shocking ignorance about Eichmann.
MineralMan
(151,076 posts)I post a DUzy!
He's the most uninteresting man in the world!
BeyondGeography
(41,014 posts)
JustAnotherGen
(37,979 posts)
MADem
(135,425 posts)Who knew it would be a know-it-all from 'europe' that would give us one of the best sense-of-humor boosts I've seen in years! This is a thread for the ages!
Laelth
(32,017 posts)I did post a thread asking DU to consider the global impact of these revelations, here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022982695
-Laelth
Edit:Laelth--added link.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)often diminished by small minds. Thanks for your objective view of things. So many Americans are caught up in the mystique that America is always right and always to be trusted. Unfortunately, that is not always true. I am still proud to be American, but the technology has run away from the people with this surveillance program.
pinto
(106,886 posts)I mentioned in an earlier thread that I'm unsure how the term is being used.
Thanks.
Monkie
(1,301 posts)when the state serves the interests of the corporations, and the corporations serve the interests of the state, when permanent war against a verb is used as a excuse to shred civil liberties, when a state spies on everyone.
but roosevelt was a lot more eloquent than i am:
"The first truth is that the liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic state itself. That, in its essence, is fascism — ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. ”
— Franklin D. Roosevelt, April 29, 1938. Message to congress
eisenhowers last address to the american public is worth watching in this context.
zeemike
(18,998 posts)And thank you for taking the time to post this thread...we need an outside observer to bring us to reality.
And by the way, I don't believe that the majority at DU supports spying and these fascist intents...but we do have a click of people that jump on the wagon no matter where it is going.
Thank you for being here.
-p
GoneFishin
(5,217 posts)Thanks.
harun
(11,381 posts)
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Right back at ya.
NoOneMan
(4,795 posts)Wouldn't a real liberal understand how PRISM is eliminating millions of potential jobs that could provide full employment, if we simply hired real Americans to spy on their neighbors? This is a labor issue, if anything.
We've all been replaced by a computer. Is any job safe?
TRoN33
(769 posts)We Democrats and liberals have already vent our anger toward our supposedly hero, President Obama for breaking way too many promises. We are taking the steps to prevent Hillary Clinton from running for President because her views are considered too Republican in the liberal spheres. We would rather to have modern and independent candidate like Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders to run because these two will reject ALL of W. Bush policies that Obama have obviously failed to do so. We liberals are angling for the exact same kind of philosophies as EU are having right now. You nailed it in every words. We are already tired of our own oppressive government and its time for REAL CHANGE.
Luminous Animal
(27,310 posts)
bvar22
(39,909 posts)Talk about Attack the Messenger!
This thread showcased some of DUs "Best & Brightest".
The swarm sure got here fast.
I wonder WHY they are working so damned hard today?
Somebody must have flashed their Bat Signal.
warrant46
(2,205 posts)Monkie
(1,301 posts)i hope you understand why i am a little cranky and was quite ruthless.
i wish you and yours well, and safety, i fear a little what will happen to the good people in america, crumbling empires are a messy affair.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)feel some sympathy for them. I used to do that, but then realize after seeing the Bush/Clinton alliance, how foolish and they stupid they must think we are. That was a rude awakening for me after all the years of standing up for Clinton against Bush supporters. Talk about a slap in the face.
bvar22
(39,909 posts)My favorites so far are:
*Nobody cared when Bush did it,
and more recently
*The minute parsing of the phrase "direct access" on an obscure internet blog PROVES that Greenwald was "Lying", and invalidates anyone's concern about the 4th Amendment and the growing Surveillance/Security State.
Most have just collapsed into repeated Kill the Messenger posts.
That is getting predictable (like this thread), boring,
an honestly, laughable.
I must confess to an unhealthy fascination with those high number, late night Cable Shows like America's Dumbest Drivers, and America's Worst Drinkers.
Reading DU today, and especially this thread,
is a lot like watching one of those shows.
I'm a little embarrassed for DU today.
JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)Good luck making a mobile call with 2 tin cans and some string.
zeemike
(18,998 posts)We need better education in the USA...some people don't know that the rest of the world is just as smart as we are, and in some things far smarter.
awoke_in_2003
(34,582 posts)that statement is ridiculous.
Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)The Europeans left us behind when our last "democratic" President sold us down the river.
Not only that, but (and you might want to sit down for this) The Asians are even further ahead of us. While we've been concentrating on creating billionaires, beating our chests, and bombing the shit out of people living in huts and caves, the rest of the world has been moving on.
datasuspect
(26,591 posts)is one of the most stupid things i have ever read.
and i've read a lot.
JoePhilly
(27,787 posts) 
sibelian
(7,804 posts)southernyankeebelle
(11,304 posts)corporation shills. Facism has a right wing leaning. Plus the Bush administration started the program and President Obama continued it. You seem so happy yet don't you think it is happening where you are also. Because I'm sure it is. Try not to glot it is soooooo not nice. Look in the mirror sweetie pie am sure your in the same sinking boat.
LittleGirl
(8,997 posts)I find your post interesting. Mostly because I could have written it and even though I look at DU everyday, the freepers have come to this place but are quickly squashed out.
I miss Germany and how it forced its citizens and non-citizens alike to register every time you move. You can't get utilities turned on until you do in some areas. I have no objection to a national ID card for citizens and non-citizens, but Americans (of which I am) do not support this idea much.
I also enjoyed the socialized medicine and wished we had the single payer system like the UK has. I believe it's laughable that Obamacare will solve our problems here when profit is the motivator to health care in this country.
I respect your right to post here and I would bet that you are toytown germany commenter right? No where else have I seen the sarcasm as brilliant in Germany than that place.
As a matter of fact, I seriously considered joining the OWS movement but saw quickly that my life would have never been the same and I didn't want to end up with a record, jail time or a serious head injury by the militarization of the police in this country.
Cheers.
Progressive dog
(7,597 posts)from this Democrat in our incipient pariah state.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)freshwest
(53,661 posts)otohara
(24,135 posts)makes for catching bad men a whole lot easier
kenichol
(252 posts)You should not misrepresent or exaggerate an argument in order to make it easier to attack!
Aerows
(39,961 posts)automatically means that you are anti-Obama and the Democratic party, wholesale. Didn't you get the memo? Heaven forbid that you stand up for the right thing, which means that spying on the American public is horseshit, wrong, and I could run out of words to describe how heinous it is, and I would have hated it as hard under Bush.
markiv
(1,489 posts)
Recursion
(56,582 posts)Your concern is noted, however.
grantcart
(53,061 posts)actions that have additional legislative oversight with a system of despotic state terror that resulted in tens of millions of innocent deaths is not just appalling but shows that despite my experience to the contrary there are still a few extremely shallow historically illiterate asses still around.
Please do not construe what I have written to be anything about the PRISM program, it is not. It is about the bastardization of words where ignorance destroys their meaning and common historical references.
I don't know where you got your education but you might want to consider a legal action to get a refund on your tuition.
Number23
(24,544 posts)88 recs for a stupid assed OP full of inaccuracies and utter garbage. This place has sunk even further into the toilet.
boilerbabe
(2,214 posts)pffffft easy for you to say sitting in Australia.
Number23
(24,544 posts)But me disagreeing from Australia is somehow something not so good?
And thank you so much for caring to remember where I currently live! If only I had even the FIRST clue who the hell you are or where you currently reside.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)Which is where this is taking place.
Number23
(24,544 posts)I am an American. My family is in America. I vote in AMERICAN elections and I pay American taxes.
Some of you are sounding more like Freepers to this day. But I'm sure that's just a coincidence.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)Please, defect to Pluto, I'm sure the planet will function without you.
Number23
(24,544 posts)So I'll just copy and paste it here:
Oh, so this doesn't affect you
Please, defect to Pluto, I'm sure the planet will function without you.
Quit while you're behind. You're embarrassing yourself on like 112 different levels.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)great skiing on Neptune.
Number23
(24,544 posts)
If that's the best you have, I suggest you call it quits, or scream Bully for you!
"I know you are but what am I". My goodness.
Number23
(24,544 posts)and exacerbated by you. The person who casually mentioned skiing on Neptune as if that made any sense is now sitting here with the rolling on the floor man telling ME to quit.
Your posts are getting more incoherent and pointless by the second. Which considering where they started, is really quite spectacular.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)it's going to be me. I rather delight in it. I didn't get past exacerbate, since it is one of my favorite verbs. Perhaps I'll read the rest of your diatribe tomorrow.
Number23
(24,544 posts)Yes, you need to call it a night. Or a decade. Either one works for me.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)didn't I?
Aerows
(39,961 posts)I earned it.
SidDithers
(44,333 posts)Sid
freshwest
(53,661 posts)134 now that are on the same express.
Number23
(24,544 posts)Judging by the "quality" of those responses, I'm guessing that person probably won't even remember any of the bizarre foolishness they posted tomorrow, if you know what I'm saying. And that's not a bad thing.
uponit7771
(93,524 posts)
DirkGently
(12,151 posts)usGovOwesUs3Trillion
(2,022 posts)From the beginning and we haven changed our tune... SURPRISE
still_one
(98,883 posts)reading the ones that do not agree with your position, because from my observation most were against the patriot act under any administration
The difference comes in laying the blame solely on the president, when in fact it was a cooperate effort which included congress, and yes the populous who elected their representatives
Unlike Europe we do not have a parliament, We have to wait every 2, 4, and 6 years to elect them
boilerbabe
(2,214 posts)don't paint all of us with that broad brush.
ForgoTheConsequence
(5,179 posts).....
b.durruti
(102 posts)Indeed....
BelgianMadCow
(5,379 posts)that of a longtime poster, who once found DU to be a heaven of sanity, at a time when I thought the entire US must have gone mad. That was at the selection of Bush, the 9/11 official conspiracy theory and the War in Iraq.
It's very disheartening to see the level of acquiescence to the current goverment policies. It's downright creepy, and it makes me wonder whether the US citizens will have what it takes to stand up in time. Not that it matters when one stands up and says no more - it is simply the right thing to do.
That being said, many on DU have kept tabs on the ever-expanding police state, and though many of the most "investigative" posters have gone, many still remain.
The one thing I'd add to the discussion is the following: as per usual, all the discussion is centered on whether US citizens are being dragnet spied upon. And the fact that all of us "rest of world" are using the same programs and companies, and are being spied upon as well, is not a problem then? I consider what we now know a declaration of war against the rest of the world. It's not because it's a digital war that it's no war.
I for one plan to seek out, use and actively promote open source alternatives for all of the companies involved.
Windows: alternative the open source Linux (Ubuntu or another version)
Google: have been using Ixquick for years (all of this info isn't particularly surprising, if you followed closely)
Facebook: I don't know of a good alternative yet. Tips?
Youtube: Same
Apple: have decided not to buy any of their products a while ago, once I noticed what a "walled garden" approach they use.
Skype: I use trillian, open source.
AOL, Yahoo, PalTalk: never used
Unfortunately, that's all software, and we know they use info coming from all kinds of connected hardware devices, too. I've suspected my linksys router before, and now I guess I wasn't seeing things.
Not that all of their snooping scares me, anymore. We are many, too many, and I've felt the need to speak up regardless of the consequences. It was a moral imperative, like Chris Hedges describes.
In the case of Europe, I see more and more uniting against neoliberalism (including that of the EU itself). But I honestly fear for my US friends. Awaken, and rise to make your voice heard and find one another across party lines, before it's too late.
So, agent Mike. Drone my IP address if you dare. :moon:
DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)some here will excuse anything and sell their souls for short-term and short-sighted political gain. Remember the "sorry, world" stuff after Bush won 2004, in which US citizens penned personal apology messages to the rest of the world r.e. Bush? That's similar to how I feel with this thing, except in this case, my President and many in my party are foursquare in favor of this giant spy program.
I'm sorry that my country spies on you, too, for no good reason.
xiamiam
(4,906 posts)conservatives.. and they post a lot. Its baffling that people pretend to be informed and progressive and then just post willfully ignorant posts. I think its a strategy that's been developed to derail meaningful communication. I've been here a long time like you and I can almost pinpoint when the site changed. after Obama.. I know there are die hard partisan supporters because the alternative is so much worse but the policies under bush have just continued and in some cases are worse. I don't even want to know folks who are willing to barter principles much less have a discussion with them. They are here but I don't think they are real for the most part. I think they are part of the machine that wants to keep us stupid and divided.
NoodleyAppendage
(4,625 posts)J
bluestate10
(10,942 posts)sibelian
(7,804 posts)Fascism is a relatively modern invention.
NoPasaran
(17,317 posts)That's why we left the Old Country.
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)that America is now heavily, deeply propagandized, down to discussion boards on the internet, in order to try to give the impression that more of us support the actions of our purchased, increasingly authoritarian government than really do.
Please note the results of the polls here, and the most-recced posts, which show clearly that the vast majority of DUers are outraged by these outrageous assaults on our Constitution.
sibelian
(7,804 posts)But it's also useful to us. It provides many opportunities to reveal.
kickysnana
(3,908 posts)to tell him America was going into tyranny unless he and his colleagues decertified the stolen 2000 election. I will tell them I contributed to Wikileaks, ACLU and spoke up and lost some friends and family along the way even though I am afraid of what might happen because of what I did.
I posted thousands of links when NOLA's population was being deported and in some cases interned that were picked up by Missing Persons online line. I cheered when Gore stood up and flew in, his life in danger (ie Senator Wellstone), to start the aid flowing into the disaster area.
I posted local eye witness pieces from the first Bush Jr Inauguration protests, the shut down of the St Paul during the GOP convention here.
But thank you so much for posting this outside opinion. From an early age studied what led up to Hitler's Germany and how anyone who can think cannot see the same path being followed, a little slower, a little more high tech I just cannot believe. How anyone can by that the treats we face are any worse than what was faced then or any other bad time in history is a condemnation of our educational and ethical systems.
I wish I could get Senator Franken to read this and so much else that has been written here in the last few days.
BainsBane
(57,724 posts)Because it was the most extensive surveillance state in history. I will not apologize for surveillance of American citizens, but I also despise false analogies. If you're going to evoke history, you should have some understanding of it. http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/202210/fascism/219368/Conservative-economic-programs
States of different structures and ideologies, from right to left, have engage in significant surveillance of their citizens.
Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)for the few remaining sane Americans. If you make learning a foreign language (like English) a requirement, you can weed out most of us and we do have some good qualities. For instance, we're already trained to work like donkeys for almost no money.
Cha
(318,411 posts)Like the Leaker is stupid.
fasttense
(17,301 posts)A lot of supposed Democrats on this board are posting some really dumb stuff about what you posted. Their main argument seems to be that you are NOT American therefore you don't know what you speak of. Though there are a few who say because you have experienced fascism you still don't know what you are saying.
Then there are the ones making jokes at your expense.
But notice how high your recommendations are. You don't get that many recs by posting what DU does NOT agree with.
Thanks for posting. I agree with you and I recommended you.
I love your line, "how do you think it looks to the world when a whistle blower feels safer in china than in the usa?"
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)I'm sure that will be crickets...
Monkie
(1,301 posts)if you want to discuss the differences in free speach between the US and euro zone countries, feel free to start a thread about that.
this thread is about the anger of many europeans, states, and ordinairy people being furious about limitless spying on the populace of your allies and permanently storing that data.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)Simple
Monkie
(1,301 posts)ok, ill address your whataboutery, if you will address the limitless spying on your allies and the permanent storage of that data.
there are considerable differences between the USA and countries in europe concerning what the law says is free speech, there are considerable differences between countries in europe too, the UK arguably has the greatest limits on free speech due to the laws of libel being very strict, the germans limit free speech when it concerns denial of the holocaust, as do many other countries in europe.
but in the context of this discussion, and the reason i can claim your argument, if it even is one, is baseless, is that what you are talking about are laws enacted by the governments that apply to citizens of those countries, and foreign visitors, if there is a strong demand for those laws to change a political party could make changing this law part of their program for government, and/or citizens can start parties to change that law, one can challenge that law in the courts of the countries that enact those laws, its called democracy.
this discussion on the other hand is about a foreign government and its limitless spying on innocent people who are meant to be its allies, this is illegal under international human rights laws. the companies that collaborated with the US state to enable this have broken european law and the laws of all the individual countries in europe.
see the difference?
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)Yes, there are.
So we don't need someone from Europe lecturing us about civil liberties. When in many countries in Europe you cannot even publicly criticize a politician even if your attack is completely true without fear of being charged with libel/slander, you have no standing to address civil liberties in the US.
You are being completely hypocritical.
Monkie
(1,301 posts)i addressed some of the differences concerning free speech, and please provide data for your assertion that in many countries in europe you are not allowed to publicly criticize politicians, this is a lie, and whataboutery, there are many countries in europe, some are in the european union, some are not, the country that has the strictest libel laws is your greatest ally in this spying, having libel laws does not prevent one from being critical of politicians, in public or in print, the free speech that would fall foul of the the libel law when it concerns politicians (or anyone) is i could say i think the politician is a idiot, is a stooge for the USA, what i cant say without falling foul of the libel laws is politician X is a pedophile unless there is published evidence of this.
the main issue here is, you are using whataboutery to excuse your governments limitless spying on its allies, this has very little to do with the civil liberties IN a country, this has to do with your governments unlimited spying and permanent collection of data on ALL europeans, if you do not understand the difference or refuse to acknowledge that, then this is your problem not mine, and you are the one that is looking like a hypocrite and not me.
If you want to ask me what i think about the laws in individual countries in europe or outside, fine by me, but when will you address the central issue here.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)address them in Europe, maybe then you can talk about them here.
Monkie
(1,301 posts)dont lecture me, you still have not once addressed the the law breaking, you have in no way addressed or acknowledged my explanation of the differences in what is considered "free" speech between the US and some european countries, and the fact that europe is a collection of varied countries some in the EU, some outside. you offer nothing to the debate.
and you are now getting excited that a right-wing-nut torture apologist is going to "expose" snowdon.
so how does that work in your mind, the snowdon leaks are part of some conspiracy against obama yet you are getting excited about a torture apologists upcoming article that will expose him?
brush
(61,033 posts)It clarifies some of the misinformation about the re-emergence of the six-year-old NSA story.
"The NSA has been involved in a legal data-mining operation for almost a decade. Its legality was clarified in the renewal of the Patriot Act, which I supported. It has been described, incorrectly, as electronic eavesdropping. What is really happening is that phone and Internet records are being scanned for patterns that might illuminate terrorist networks. If there is a need to actually eavesdrop, the government has to go to the FISA court for permission."
There seems to be quite a bit of overreaction to this.
Let's see how it plays out to see whether Snowden is a hero or is part of an orchestrated "next big scandal to bog down the administration" sham.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)That we left America because I loved the ideas that it stood for when it was at its best and that I would not continue to support a country that spent its treasure killing people abroad while ignoring the needs of its own people.
I will tell that that I was not a "good German" and that I put my money where my mouth was.
Catherina
(35,568 posts)tavalon
(27,985 posts)We are screaming at the top of our heads and not just on a keyboard. Mostly wrong audience here. We are seething, most of us, with anger, fury, horror.
Javaman
(65,595 posts)FairWinds
(1,717 posts)they have intercepted all sorts of European internal communications for years.
Monkie is quite right to raise the issue.
Geez, Mr. Lesser, everybody in the US is constantly making (often very uninformed) judgments about other countries. Why can't they do the same? Your attitude is jingoistic.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)glad you said this. Too many hypocrites, fools, clowns and sheeple, both democrat and rethug.
Response to Monkie (Original post)
devilgrrl This message was self-deleted by its author.
Monkie
(1,301 posts)more whataboutery, if you want my opinion on the republicans responsible for much of these abuses, ask me?
first though, how many democrats actually voted against any of this?
the patriot act, the FISA amendments, need i go on?
not many democrats in this thread (with some notable exceptions) seem to be bothered by the limitless spying on your allies?
my first post was specifically about the information we have before us now.
the long list of republicans responsible for much of the abuses should be at the hague, on trial for war crimes, crimes against humanity, crimes against peace, and spend the rest of their life rotting in jail. and that is me being charitable, because i would not piss on any of them to put out a fire, to put it bluntly.
pmorlan1
(2,096 posts)Excellent post and sadly, very true. These "good" Democrats like the good germans should hang their head in shame. Thankfully, there are still quite a few Democrats here who aren't willing to stick their head in the sand. They are the ones who will fight for the Democratic Party values that we've defended down through history. They are the ones who will stand up for principle and not let Party affiliation blind them to this tyranny.
mntleo2
(2,637 posts)...but we were laughed off the stage and ridiculed ~ and while many are now listening, they think it is all new, they did not realize that it has been going on for 3 decades. I am including ppl right here on DU who call themselves "Democrats". The upper classes completely ignored ~ and even blamed the poor working those horrible McJobs ~ for "choosing" to be poor when the poor were homeless in their own communities right under their noses. Of course their "solution" was to ...just make it illegal to be homeless! There! That took care of it!
Until they themselves began to lose their own homes ... then suddenly unaffordable housing was *not* their fault. Ain't that a coiinkidink?
It makes us really sad (and for me kinda mad) to see more ppl vote for America's Got Talent than for their own freaking government. We TRIED to tell them that all the policies being put in place meant that they were next and I cannot tell you how many times I got the " that's not true it is because all poor people are lazy" meme. Now they are all surprised that it HAS come for them when they themselves supported those dummass laws and policies that are biting them in the ass.
I have been an advocate for low income people for almost 35 years. Let me tell you, I want to scream every time some person who has fallen from the upper classes down to poverty tells me, "B-b-b-ut I worked hard, I did all the right things ..." Like they are SO special and SO with it, do they actually think poor people did NOT "do all the right things" too? I feel for them, but cannot help but wonder when it was that they either did not do a damn thing or voted against their interest because they thought those laws were "for everybody else". Unless they are ignorant, they should know those self interested, rich people's laws dripping with facism that are made in this country, apply to everybody, not just the poor.
Cat in Seattle
Board member of People Organizing for Welfare and Economic Rights (POWER http://www.mamapower.org)
duuser5822
(54 posts)Sad to see our party, as well as our country, go downhill.
uppityperson
(116,011 posts)I agree
akbacchus_BC
(5,830 posts)paradise these days.
I need to remind you that the Presiden wanted to close Gitmo, some Dems voted against it. Full health care in the US was fought for by then First Lady Clinton and she got no where. President Obama promised health care to the American people, but it got watered down.
Do no forget that the Rethugs did not want to work with President Obama, he tried his best to work with them. Now, this is where I fail to understand that he did not understand that those fools will not work with him, they did not care how much the American people suffered, all they cared about was to stop President Obama! The rethugs do not have American interests at heart, all they want is to stop this black President to move forward, to the detriment of the majority of Americans.
If you ask me, the GOP is effing pathetic and they do not care about people, they just care about being in power!
This is how I see it from a Canadian perspective. I am just so glad that our PM Chretien, at that time, refused to join the warmongerers to invade Iraq. If he had, we would be in the same shit like the US!
Best regards and everything is not President Obama's fault, he has Dems who votes against him.