What the heck was going through their brains?

[MannyGoldstein]

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

The Fourth Amendment to the United States Constitution

Think about it: the Founders wrote a Constitution for a country that they themselves would likely lead.

So why didn't they trust... themselves? Why put constraints on their own power?

Perhaps because it was the right thing to do?

I think it still is.

[sadbear]

1. They didn't want to replicate what they had spent the past few years fighting against.

[burnodo]

2. yours is a pre-9/11 mindset

gotta get with the program!

[Cali_Democrat]

3. " and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause"

Well it's a good thing the Obama Adminstration adhered to the constitution and obtained warrants.

Right?

[Art_from_Ark]

9. And the probable cause was, what, exactly?

[kenny blankenship]

16. You owned a telephone.

Seriously, do you know how many terrorists have owned a telephone? It's butting up on 100% these days. Sorry, man, but you fit the profile.

[OnyxCollie]

33. Got a cheap Casio watch? You're al Qaeda!

I wear the Casio Forester model myself. (I like analog faces.) $25 at WalMart.

THE GUANTANAMO DETAINEES: THE GOVERNMENT’S STORY
Professor Mark Denbeaux* and Joshua Denbeaux*
http://law.shu.edu/publications/guantanamoReports/guantanamo_report_final_2_08_06.pdf

Just as strong evidence proves much, weak evidence suggests more. Examples of evidence
that the Government cited as proof that the detainees were enemy combatants includes the
following:
􀂾 Associations with unnamed and unidentified individuals and/or organizations;
􀂾 Associations with organizations, the members of which would be allowed into the
United States by the Department of Homeland Security;
􀂾 Possession of rifles;
􀂾 Use of a guest house;
􀂾 Possession of Casio watches; and
􀂾 Wearing of olive drab clothing.

"Matrix of Threat Indicators for Enemy Combatants"
http://wikileaks.org/gitmo/pdf/notes/EC_THREAT_INDICATORS.pdf

The possession of a Casio F-91W model watch and the silver-color version of this model, the
A159W, is an indicator of al-Qaida training in the manufacture of improvised explosive devices (IEDs). A
JTF-GTMO identified the Casio watch as "the sign of al-Qaida, (which) uses the watch to make bombs."
The Casio was known to be given to the students at al-Qaida bomb-making training courses in Afghanistan,
at which the students received instruction in the preparation of timing devices using the watch.
Approximately one-third of the JTF-GTMO detainees that were captured with these models of watches
have known connections to explosives, either having attended explosives training, having association with
a facility where IEDs were made or where explosives training was given, or having association with a
person identified as an explosives expert.
10 In cases where a detainee's background and training are not directly related to electronics, such items can
be an indicator of association with lED detonators.

[PDittie]

58. Very important distinction

Greenwald mentioned in yesterday morning's segment (where he got inot it with Mika B) that 'probable cause' has been revised to 'reasonable basis', and that is why, of the 1079 FISA warrants requested by NSA recently, only one was declined.

This is not oversight, it's a rubber stamp.

[reusrename]

64. I don't think it was declined, I think it was withdrawn.

Sounds more like somebody didn't want their fingerprints on it.

[GoneFishin]

73. The probable cause is that we have been spying on 300 million Americans and we have

probable cause to believe their gonna be pretty pissed when they find out.

[veveto]

74. Over a year later, and cali_democrat hasn't answered your question

Waiting.

[cherokeeprogressive]

10. The rest of the sentence makes me think the Founding Fathers expected slightly more specificity.

More specificity than a 100 mile long fishing net at least.

Funny how you left the rest of the sentence off.

[Cali_Democrat]

24. Well isn't it the job of the independent judiciary to interpret the law

and approve warrants accordingly?

Wasn't that the process that was followed in this case? You think the FiSA court or federal judges aren't familiar with the requirements for a warrant? I would think they know much more than an anonymous poster on the internet pounding away on his keyboard.

Seems to me like you're angry with the judge's decision to sign off on the warrant, although, I suspect you really aren't all that knowledgable about how this process works.

[Maedhros]

47. Authoritarians argue that it's legal.

Progressives argue that it's wrong.

[ProSense]

17. Yes, and then there is this court decision.

Smith v. Maryland, 442 U.S. 735 (1979) - No warrant required for call metadata
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022966764

[MannyGoldstein]

40. African Americans are not citizens.

And the federal government can't stop slavery.

It's true!

[Progressive dog]

71. Didn't it take a war and constitutional amendments to overturn Dred Scott?

May be it won't take that to overturn this decision, but that is silly.

[MannyGoldstein]

72. Not quite what happened, I think

Those were simply bad calls by SCOTUS. The laws were already correct, SCOTUS was just "legislating from he bench".

The thing we sorta kinda went to war over is the ability to own slaves, which was also legal in some states.

[99Forever]

60. Educate yourself.

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/constitution.html

[bvar22]

65. Education is NOT the problem in this case.

The problem lies elsewhere.

[backwoodsbob]

51. so what was the probable cause?

they had probable cause against millions of Verizon customers?Really?

That's one hell of a lot of terrorists in our midst

[Cali_Democrat]

56. These are FISA warrants

The applications aren't made public as per the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978.

However, the cort order itself was leaked:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/interactive/2013/jun/06/verizon-telephone-data-court-order

[cherokeeprogressive]

4. The taste of tyranny takes generations to go away.

That's why.

And yes, it WAS the right thing to do.

[randome]

5. First of all, you want to believe Snowden without corroboration.

Secondly, I am tired of hearing this Fundamentalist Constitution crap as if it's the freaking Bible. Our 18th century forebears could not have imagined our current society in their wildest dreams so they do NOT get to dictate to us from the grave how we should behave.

We make our decisions in the here-and-now, not according to some 18th century mindset.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[X_Digger]

8. Right, the fourth doesn't mention computers and phones, so it shouldn't apply, right?

[randome]

11. It applies in the context of the 21st century, not the 18th!

We give up some rights every hour of every day. The only point of contention is to what extent.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[X_Digger]

15. May your chains set lightly upon you..

"If ye love wealth better than liberty,
the tranquility of servitude
better than the animating contest of freedom,
go home from us in peace.
We ask not your counsels or your arms.
Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you.
May your chains set lightly upon you,
and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen."

-Sam Adams

[Luminous Animal]

35. +1

[BrotherIvan]

53. Perfect Quote!

[cascadiance]

61. Ben Franklin was also more thoughtful than many of the apologists of today too!...

Please think about it people! We live in a different world today. That is true. But that doesn't mean we should be giving up our liberties. We are destined to a totalitarian state if we don't wake the F' up! We've been warned many times!

From:
http://www.whatourforefathersthought.com/Quotes.html

Many times he as reiterated the same thoughts on this topic in these quotes...

“They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.”

”Those Who Sacrifice Liberty For Security Deserve Neither.”

”He who would trade liberty for some temporary security, deserves neither liberty nor security.”

”He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither.”

”People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both.”

”If we restrict liberty to attain security we will lose them both.”

”Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.”

”He who gives up freedom for safety deserves neither.”

”Those who would trade in their freedom for their protection deserve neither.”

”Those who give up their liberty for more security neither deserve liberty nor security.”

Ben Franklin

[Mojorabbit]

63. +100 nt

[leftstreet]

67. +1

nicely done

[bvar22]

69. Absolutely PERFECT response to those who would discount our concerns for perceived partisan gain.

[noise]

26. Here's a crazy notion

If the current leaders do not like constraints on their power they should find another line of work. I'm sure in a country with 300 million people we can find some people willing to do the job without violating civil liberties.

[sadbear]

14. We have no one but ourselves to blame.

Yes, things do change, and have changed 'exponentially' in recent times. The language of our Constitution does seem rather dated in the 21st Century.

[TheKentuckian]

30. Best get to amending then.

What changes do you have in mind?

[sadbear]

31. I'm not a linguist or a philosopher...

but I recommend consulting with them to get started.

[snappyturtle]

50. "Fundamentalist constitution crap "...that's a mouth full. I believe the Constitution

was so well written it is timeless. Many who adhere to the First and Second Amendments would
probably agree with me....and there's always a lot of that going around. You've got your work cut out for you because if you dislike the Constitution as much as you claim there's only one thing to be done and that is change it....not an easy or enviable task.

[dkf]

6. +1000 Manny.

We can't be the generation who gave this right away.

[geek tragedy]

20. Compared to Hoover's COINTELPRO, this is

mild stuff. It was given away a while ago.

[dkf]

22. Please don't depress me further with more intrusion and wrongdoing.

[geek tragedy]

23. Intrusion and wrongdoing has been a constant

in American history.

Anti-labor crackdowns
WWII internment camps
Jim Crow
HUAC
CREEP
COINTELPRO

[dkf]

29. All that crap they feed us about our rights...it's just a fairy tale isn't it?

[xtraxritical]

41. We have a winner!

You can have all the rights money can buy!

[Rex]

70. I cannot believe you are just figuring this out.

You can thank the GOP for the current state of spying in this country.

[Rex]

68. +1

I see a lot of people don't realize that this is tame stuff compared to the McCarthy/Hoover Era. Been going on forever...people just now realizing it? Kinda surprising.

[graham4anything]

7. What would FDR have done? Lincoln? BTW, you can have Tebow. What are the Patriots thinking? nt

[cherokeeprogressive]

21. They were probably thinking Ryan is a buffoon...

For not recognizing physical ability when he saw it, and not converting him to another position.

[awoke_in_2003]

37. If the Pats took on Tebow...

they are nuts. He is a sideshow that can't throw a football.

[MannyGoldstein]

44. The Tebow thing is pretty weird.

Very, very weird. Tebowing won't find a friendly reception here. At all.

[graham4anything]

57. Thankfully we got rid of him!

[99Forever]

12. They knew that...

... these kinds of powers ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS get abused.

ALWAYS.

[wilsonbooks]

13. But but but .......

when our team does it it should be okay. it is only bad when their team does it.
What if there was only one team and none of us were allowed on the bus? We could cheer though and throw things at the other team.

[yodermon]

18. "unreasonable" "probable cause"

Sorry Manny. Those words mean whatever the fuck TPTB want them to mean.

The *current* PTB, not the founders.

[geek tragedy]

19. Same guys passed the Alien and Sedition Acts.

Also, aristocrats generally are down with weak government.

Apparently 4th amendment meant you couldn't search their slaves (property) without a warrant.

[MannyGoldstein]

28. Adams was a bit of a fascist sometimes. But

they were all repealed withing two years. They were a mistake.

The current mistake has been running for 12 years, and is only growing worse.

[JEB]

25. Nobody needs to know squat about any of my phone calls.

Get a damn warrant if I am that far astray.

[Uncle Joe]

27. Kicked, recommended and is if that wasn't bad enough it's even worse,

because this isn't' just government entities doing the data mining on all the American People, they've outsourced 40-50% of the job to private corporate contractors.

Just another layer of corporate supremacy taking hold.

Lawrence O'Donnell said he didn't feel intimidated by them data mining his life's connections, but how can we know that to be the case?

For all we know he could currently be being exposed to blackmail by either elements in the government or some corporate sub contractor charged with the task of collecting the data.

Thanks for the thread, Manny Goldstein.

[Egalitarian Thug]

32. You just don't understand the "sensible, reality based community" because

you're a RADICAL LEFTIST! ©. You have no knowledge of history nor appreciation for the possible. In fact, I'll bet you are a Naderite that hates America!!11!!1!!


Note to the jury; The preceding is

sat·ire
noun
a literary work holding up human vices and follies to ridicule or scorn













And that was .

[MannyGoldstein]

39. I love the terra-ists and hate the troops.

As we all know.

Just like Ben Franklin and that gang did.

[Egalitarian Thug]

54. Traitors and terrorists, all of them long-haired hippies. n/t

[Phlem]

34. Agreed.

-p

[awoke_in_2003]

36. You know the answer, Manny...

for those who dont- absolute power corrupts absolutely.

[MannyGoldstein]

38. That was the cool thing about The Founders

They limited themselves. George Washington refused to be king.

Very unusual.

[rhett o rick]

42. Our founders were aware of what tyranny could do. They were trying to get away from it.

Today we have allowed the tyrant to take over. We need a new Declaration of Independence from the tyrant corporations and their paid politicians.

[MannyGoldstein]

43. Our current "masters" have no sense of right and wrong

Whatever is expedient, is right.

Deep shit.

But they only win if we let them.

[rhett o rick]

45. In the long run they wont win. Their greed will get the best of them. nm

[awoke_in_2003]

49. Yes, very unusual...

Washington could have been president for as long as he wanted. Hell, he could have been emperor, and no one would have said "boo". They were big men, our founders. Flawed? Yes.

[99th_Monkey]

46. Those Founding Fathers had their heads so far up in the clouds

that they couldn't see 200 years into the future very clearly,
so they didn't understand where the real dangers lurked.

But a mere 56 years later, a French political thinker and historian
who visited America at the tender age of 26, had it all pretty much
figured out, and wrote this in his classic work Democracy in America:

"The manufacturing aristocracy of our age first impoverishes and then
debases the men who service it, and then abandons them to be supported
by the Charity of the public. ...

The friends of democracy should keep their eyes anxiously fixed in this
direction; for if ever a permanent inequality of conditions and aristocracy
again penetrate into the world, it may be predicted that this is the gate by
which they will enter". ~Alexis de Tocqueville (1832)

[ReRe]

48. Hey, I vote for the good old....

K&R

.... Constitution. What we need to do is go back to the point where they started going around it and coming in the back door (so-to-speak.) We need to clean up all the loopholes and strike any and all legislation that has not followed the Constitution to a "T". The very reason we are in a Constitutional crisis all the time now is because our leaders have been letting lobbyists (Corporate Lawyers) write the laws in return for campaign contributions. Corporations HATE the Constitution, and they hate Democracy.

How we would get there, I don't know... a Constitutional Congress?

Let me tell you how stinking the field of Corporate Law is. I had an uncle (may he RIP, passed from cancer way too soon, not much older than me.) He became a Corporate Lawyer and within five years, he quit. His conscience could not bear his profession.

Thanks for the OP Manny.

[avaistheone1]

52. Manny, you hit another home run!

k&r

[MannyGoldstein]

55. Nah, the Founders did.

I'm just a groupie.

[Junkdrawer]

59. A NATION OF LAWS NOT PEOPLE

Sorry for the caps, don't do it often, but....

[indepat]

62. Simple, the PNAC vision

[Rex]

66. They been doing it since Hoover.

The govt likes to spy on the citizens, they have nothing better to do I guess.