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arely staircase

(12,482 posts)
Mon Jun 10, 2013, 11:22 PM Jun 2013

grandiose narcissist

Snowden fled to Hong Kong when he knew publication of his leaks was imminent. In his interview, he said he went there because “they have a spirited commitment to free speech and the right of political dissent.” This may be true, in some limited way, but the overriding fact is that Hong Kong is part of China, which is, as Snowden knows, a stalwart adversary of the United States in intelligence matters. (Evan Osnos has more on that.) Snowden is now at the mercy of the Chinese leaders who run Hong Kong. As a result, all of Snowden’s secrets may wind up in the hands of the Chinese government—which has no commitment at all to free speech or the right to political dissent. And that makes Snowden a hero?
The American government, and its democracy, are flawed institutions. But our system offers legal options to disgruntled government employees and contractors. They can take advantage of federal whistle-blower laws; they can bring their complaints to Congress; they can try to protest within the institutions where they work. But Snowden did none of this. Instead, in an act that speaks more to his ego than his conscience, he threw the secrets he knew up in the air—and trusted, somehow, that good would come of it. We all now have to hope that he’s right.

http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/comment/2013/06/edward-snowden-nsa-leaker-is-no-hero.html

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marions ghost

(19,841 posts)
1. nah sorry
Mon Jun 10, 2013, 11:37 PM
Jun 2013

--doesn't meet the definition of a narcissist. Not at all.

And Toobin's article is crap. Especially this part:

"...our system offers legal options to disgruntled government employees and contractors. They can take advantage of federal whistle-blower laws; they can bring their complaints to Congress; they can try to protest within the institutions where they work."

Why does nobody ever do this? --- I think we all know why....

 

JaneyVee

(19,877 posts)
2. That was seriously the worst place to flee to. Also, the article states he could get whistle-blower
Mon Jun 10, 2013, 11:46 PM
Jun 2013

protections, which he most likely can't because he committed a crime.

davidpdx

(22,000 posts)
4. I have to question that choice as well
Mon Jun 10, 2013, 11:48 PM
Jun 2013

There would have been other countries that he could have gone that do not have extradition. He could have initially flew to Hong Kong and then somewhere else.

RainDog

(28,784 posts)
6. just use a logic test
Tue Jun 11, 2013, 02:09 AM
Jun 2013

Put Daniel Ellsberg's name in the place of Snowden's in Toobin's article.

Was Daniel Ellsberg an out-of-control narcissist for releasing classified documents about the war in Vietnam?

What's your opinion on that moment in history?

Nixon's dirty tricksters tried to smear him by breaking into Ellsberg's psychiatrist's office to find dirt on him.

Many of us are not on one side or another, as far as who this guy is because we don't know enough.

And neither does Toobin and neither does anyone else on this site who is attacking him.

Neither do those who are hailing him as a hero, tho that stance comes out of a tradition of liberal values in this nation and the knowledge that liberals have been subject to govt. harassment since before WWII, and most especially during the Civil Rights Era and beyond.

Those here who attack whistleblowers are coming out of another tradition - the one that aligns with McNamara. (see "Fog of War)

Hekate

(90,189 posts)
10. Remind me: To which totalitarian country did Ellsberg flee, praising their freedom of speech?
Tue Jun 11, 2013, 02:37 AM
Jun 2013

I do not know enough about the Snowden case yet. But I was around for the Vietnam War and for Ellsberg, and I hated Nixon with a white-hot fire.

I don't "attack whistleblowers" -- but something about the Snowden case and the way it is playing out in the media and the political sphere (but I repeat myself) is off, and part of it is a nagging suspicion that we are witnessing the latest iteration of the Nixonian tradition of dirty tricks against Democrats. Follow the trail of rat pellets, and see what turns up.

Snowden may be more of a pawn than a whistleblower -- but only time will tell.

Nay

(12,051 posts)
14. Yeah, right. Any employee dumb enough to avail himself/herself of a "legal way" to
Tue Jun 11, 2013, 08:33 AM
Jun 2013

complain or whistleblow is lucky to ever get another job ever again. They certainly won't keep the job they had a complaint about, no matter how correct they were. Ask the, oh, hundreds of whistleblowers who find themselves fired, or 'retired,' like 2 FBI agents who warned about 9/11, got nowhere, and then had the temerity to report afterwards that they got nowhere. They're both not in the FBI anymore, even though the FBI desperately needs people who can point out the bottlenecks and problems with bosses that stymie the FBI's real purpose of protecting people.

Fumesucker

(45,851 posts)
7. China is a stalwart adversary of the US in intelligence matters
Tue Jun 11, 2013, 02:12 AM
Jun 2013

But they are our bestest buds when it comes to economic matters.

Money talks, bullshit walks.

Response to arely staircase (Original post)

Rhiannon12866

(202,970 posts)
9. Welcome to DU!
Tue Jun 11, 2013, 02:27 AM
Jun 2013

Many great points here! If you post 10 replies, you can post your own OP and I hope that you do...

Number23

(24,544 posts)
12. That's one hell of a post!
Tue Jun 11, 2013, 04:09 AM
Jun 2013
I'm a Democrat and I will vote Democrat until the day I die. And until the day of my death, I will ruthlessly fight to purge the libertarian wing from our party.


You'll get a lot of support for that around here! And especially after this week!!

Shut the fuck up and get out of the way or the core of the Democratic Party will find a way to do it for you.




!!!!

Cha

(295,899 posts)
13. Not a whistle Blower.
Tue Jun 11, 2013, 04:25 AM
Jun 2013
These were legally authorized programs; in the case of Verizon Business’s phone records, Snowden certainly knew this, because he leaked the very court order that approved the continuation of the project. So he wasn’t blowing the whistle on anything illegal; he was exposing something that failed to meet his own standards of propriety


Thanks, arely~ Speaking of Verizon..



http://theobamadiary.com/2013/06/10/tally/
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