Discussion: Should Rape be a Capital Crime?

[IdaBriggs]

This is a theoretical discussion. Rape is *NOT* currently a capital crime. (And the logistics behind such a change would be immense, which is why this is a theoretical discussion.)

In fact, many people do not consider it a "real" crime, or one that should be reported. (I wish this was sarcasm - see http://www.rainn.org/statistics for details.)

Here is where I find things "interesting" - per the referenced website, "2/3 of assaults are committed by someone known to the victim" and "38% of rapists are a friend or acquaintance."

So, assuming you "knew" someone who viciously sexually assaulted you or a loved one, would you want them executed?

Is defining "sexual assault" as an action involving any object penetrating someone else's existing bodily cavity an adequate way of explaining the difference between a regular "assault" (ex: fist on face, bullet through leg, knife in chest, etc.) - and should they be treated differently?

How could the inevitable "it was consensual/no it wasn't" challenges be addressed?

Here are the numbers, per this website: http://www.rainn.org/statistics

About Victims:
- 44% of victims are under age 18
- 80% are under age 30

Sexual Assault Statistics:
-Every 2 minutes, someone in the US is sexually assaulted.
-Each year there are about 207,754 victims of sexual assault.

Reporting:
- 54% of sexual assaults are not reported to police
- 97% of rapists will never spend a day in jail

About Offenders:- Approximately 2/3 of assaults are committed by someone known to the victim.
- 38% of rapists are friends or acquaintances.

Are these things "more prevalent" today, or are we just at a point where we are discussing them openly?

NOTE: This conversation is intended to provoke discussion on a discussion board. I am not advocating for or against the positions being discussed.

Share your thoughts, please.

ON EDIT: If you are "anti death penalty PERIOD" as opposed to "anti death penalty for RAPE" please identify. Thank you!

[msanthrope]

1. No. Historically, it was the 'legal' basis for lynching. Read Coker v. Georgia and Kennedy v.

Louisiana. That power should never, ever, be given back to the states.

[morningfog]

4. In a rarity, I fully agree.

[msanthrope]

7. I'm not a complete crypto-fascist, you know! nt

[IdaBriggs]

10. Is your opinion "no death penalty EVER" or just not for rape?

Attempting to clarify for the purposes of this discussion.

[KamaAina]

22. And "To Kill A Mockingbird".

"He's a n----r accused of rape. Of course he's guilty!"

[Tom Ripley]

53. +1000

[davidn3600]

2. I believe the Supreme Court already said that it can't be

And there is concern that if they did make it a capital offense that rapists would be even more likely to kill their victims.

[MindPilot]

3. I am a victim and no.

I am opposed to the death penalty. Period.

Sexual violence is an issue that needs to be addressed in a more rational and scientific manner than "fry their ass".

[RebelOne]

15. I am another victim, and I say yes. n/t

[markiv]

31. you realize the rapist would have had nothing to lose killing you?

to keep you quiet, if that were the law?

would it have been worth it, being in that situation, for retaliation, betting that he's choose to spare your life over his own?

[Gormy Cuss]

38. You realize that rapists already kill victims to keep them quiet, right?

What's their incentive? Why are they trading a jail term for a potential DP?

One of the reasons I'm against capital punishment is that it is at best a weak disincentive.

[MindPilot]

42. It is as most violent crimes rape is an irrational act so deterrents don't mean a lot

most people don't commit rape because of the threat of a lengthy sentence, most people don't commit rape because it is WRONG!

I think in the mind of the rapist, the difference between life and death is not much.

Deterrents work better at the level of the frat party rape scenario where the potential rapist has something to lose. But ultimately the culture has to change and that never happens as fast as we'd like.

[Ms. Toad]

50. Rapists very rarely kill their victims. n/t

[Gormy Cuss]

61. But some do kill even in states where the DP is still the law for murder.

My point is that the DP is at best a weak deterrent for any crime. There are dozens of other and better ways to address the culture of rape sexual assault.

[Ms. Toad]

66. I wasn't arguing for the death penalty-

Capital offenses actually increase in the week preceding an execution, and tail off following the execution so, it is actually the opposite of a deterrent.

But because the rapes we hear about are the ones where there is significant brutalization or murder, I was making sure you knew that those were the rare exceptions rather than the rule.

[Gormy Cuss]

72. I'm well aware of rape statistics.

I was responding to a comment upthread where the argument against DP for rape seemed to be that rapists would be more inclined to kill their victims if the penalties for rape and murder were the same. It's an interesting theory but I doubt that it's borne out by the data.

[RebelOne]

79. I was a dumb 14-year-old at the time.

And these 2 guys who I trusted drove me to a secluded area which was swampy. Then they told me to take off my clothes. I jumped out of the car and was wading in the swamps and they caught me. I was raped and in my opinion these two monsters should be 6 feet under or locked away for the rest of their lives. This happened in the '50s and the victim was stigmatized, so many girls did not report being raped.

[markiv]

80. i'm sorry this happened to you

and i'm not saying the animals dont deserve what you suggested, my comments are based purely on the danger of putting them in a position where they have nothing to lose and everything to gain by killing a witness/victim

that and nothing else

[angstlessk]

5. No, what would deter the rapist from murdering his victim so she could never tell..

the punishment would be the same...so no, I do not think it should be a death penalty offense.

[IdaBriggs]

8. Are you saying that "low level punishment" (if any) is keeping victims alive?

Where "corporal punishment" would incent the perpetrators to kill/murder, as opposed to "just" sexually assault?

[angstlessk]

13. Indeed I am..though "low level punishment" is not what I said

I was raped as a child...and luckily it was after the death penalty was removed...I was able to identify my rapists and they were sent to jail.....there were many reports of children being raped and killed before my rape...

[markiv]

29. bingo - totally common sense answer nt

[Pelican]

71. By that logic...

... that means that the rapist is willing to accept the consequences of a rape charge but not a murder one.

They either think they are not going to get caught or that the punishment will be light enough to make the rape worth it.

[angstlessk]

75. You do not think a person would not murder a person whom they just raped

considering the death penalty?

Would you?

I do not think they expect to be caught, but IF THEY WERE...do they want the death penalty vs 5 years in jail?

IF the death penalty was because of rape..why NOT murder the victim of rape?

[Pelican]

76. First, that is a lot of "nots"

Secondly, they don't think they are going to get caught. That's why they do it.

It's not as if they are making a conscious decision "Well, it will cost me 5 years of my life but I really feel like rape tonight"

Same reason that the current death penalty has little to no deterrent effect. People who make enough bad decisions, to the point where they are murdering on a level worthy of the death penalty are not the best folks to weigh the pros and cons of an action.

[Recursion]

6. Popcorning your own thread is in poor taste (nt)

[pipi_k]

40. Actually

I agree.

Smacks of someone purposely looking to cause disruption and bad feelings.

[IdaBriggs]

44. Or attempting to start a discussion on a discussion board.

[GObamaGO]

47. With all due respect

Using the popcorn smiley reeks of shit stirring.

But I am sure you knew that already.

[IdaBriggs]

69. Everyone is entitled to their opinions.

Even the wrong ones.

Welcome to an internet message board.

You say "shit stirring" and I say "discussion" -- tomato, potato, let's call the whole thing off!

"Guys and Dolls" going through my head on a discussion about Rape - huh? Lol. Sigh.

[alcibiades_mystery]

9. "Those f*ckers stay in your head..."

I'm against capital punishment, but this is a catchy song...

[cliffordu]

11. If someone brutally raped a loved one of mine,

I might invoke capital punishment.

Or mutilate them to the point that children would faint and adults recoil in revulsion when seeing their faces.

But I'm sensitive that way.

[cali]

14. and then you would deservedly spend your days rotting in prison. I would applaud

vigilante "justice" is not justice and perps should be harshly punished. they are criminals. period.

I don't believe you would do any such thing.

[AgingAmerican]

73. In which case said rapist would likely just kill the victim

to leave no witnesses.

[cali]

12. I anti-death penalty period, no exceptions. ever

but I still think this is silly.

[DavidDvorkin]

16. No crime should be a capital crime.

[Orrex]

17. No.

[s-cubed]

18. No capital crimes.- no death penalty. Period. nt

[Tien1985]

19. No death penalty, at all.

But I'd be fine with life in prison, no parole.

[lapislzi]

20. There is a lot of nuance to be explored in this thread.

I hope the discussion remains civil and on-topic.

I have been anti-DP for my entire life. I think state-sponsored murder is barbaric and not worthy of a civilized society. I do not care for the exaltation of punishment over justice. It doesn't ennoble us as a society.

That being said, a handful of high-profile RAPE cases (now one is a rape/murder case) have caused me to rethink (not reverse) that position.

People on DU have oft heard me say "I'm not in the judging business." Well, sometimes we are. And this is a speculative discussion, after all.

The accused in the rape/murder of the medical student in Delhi late last year themselves try humanity in the most challenging way. There is no place in my human psyche for such barbarity, no compassion, and no scrap of mercy can I summon for these men. None.

Likewise the Ohio man who imprisoned and enslaved three young women for a decade. (There is, I think, little doubt of his guilt.) There is not even a fitting penalty for that on the law books--because it's so heinous. It's so heinous it can barely be conceived by rational humans.

What do you, as a society, DO with such individuals? What would justice look like? Is that even a question?

My own, admittedly small and imperfect, mind shuts down when confronted by such issues. Seeing such people alive is an affront to my own humanity.

Is the fault with me, that I lack sufficient compassion? Or are some crimes so beyond the pale that they stain the collective soul to the point that the people who committed them must be removed from the planet?

I don't know the answer. But I (along with Ms. Briggs) are taking callers.

Disclaimer: I'm an atheist. I use the word "soul" in a very loose sense, a kind of zeitgeist.

[lunatica]

21. No

There should not be a death penalty.

[Demo_Chris]

23. No. Only suspected terrorists and their families should face this. nt

[LittleBlue]

24. No, the death penalty should never be used

Weren't there men convicted of rape and murder later exonerated by DNA evidence?

The death penalty makes the injustice permanent.

[Rex]

25. Yes.

Rape. People that rob others on a huge scale (think billion dollar ponzi scheme). Anyone involved in the grey market of selling people into prostitution. Government officials caught transporting huge amounts of drugs. War-mongers/traitors. All should be capital offenses imo.

[FrodosPet]

26. Anti death penalty PERIOD

Not that I don't believe that there are people who deserve the most severe punishment possible for rape and murder, but there is too much chance for innocent people to die.

None of us are so pure and so infallible as to make life and death judgements over others.

[Politicalboi]

27. YES because it's a life sentence

For the victim. If the victim is a child under the age of 12, it should be a death sentence IMO. Each case should have circumstances that will either be death or life sentences. It MUST be proved by DNA, the scum confesses, or has priors that involve sex or lewd conduct with children.

[markiv]

28. and the additional penalty for silencing the victim with death would be.....?

OOPS!!!!!

the unintended consequences of such a law, would be turning serial rapists into serial rapist/killers

[Ligyron]

30. No, that is not justice, the victim is still alive. n/t

[PDJane]

32. No. I am anti-death penalty, period.

Too many innocents die at the hands of law enforcement, and the death penalty has been, traditionally, used to suppress minorities. I would go so far as to say that the crime of being different can land you on death row.

The rape culture should be an anachronism, a throwback to the days of stoning and the removal of hands. It should be, in the 21st century, an anachronism. That it isn't, is a problem with those who judge and feel justified in judging...a holdover from religious teachings, among other things.

[rrneck]

33. No.

I'm anti death penalty, but nevertheless rape is an injury from which one could recover. Death is hard to beat. And it's a lot easier to define death than sexual assault. Any crime that admits to a measure of interpretation should not be punishable with irreversible action. I believe that murder is pretty much the only capital offense left. Maybe treason, which can result in considerable loss of life, but I'm not sure.

[Jamastiene]

34. What kind of person starts an OP about rape and adds a popcorn smiley at the bottom of it?

That you could put a popcorn smiley on a post about rape is sickening.

[IdaBriggs]

46. One who wants a DISCUSSION without drama.

A theoretical one, with thoughtful people adding commentary about the topic.

You are free to ignore either the thread or me if you do not feel you have anything to add other than commentary about my editing choices.

Debates about crime and punishment can be entertaining - see the "Law & Order" television franchises, and any of the dozen police/lawyer books/movies/television shows, hence since this is a theoretical discussion with no impact in the real world, I used the popcorn smiley to show that it should not be taken too seriously, but as a rhetorical indulgence.

[mentalsolstice]

82. +1. It is disturbing.

Even more disturbing is the OP's response to you. To say such a discussion can be "entertaining" and not be taken seriously, is sickening. After all it's worthy just like L&O, a show while entertaining, has absolutely no basis in reality.

[one_voice]

35. Let me first say your popcorn...

smiley is very insensitive and quite frankly disgusting.

But to answer you question, as a victim (which is why I said what I did about your popcorn smiley) I say no. No to death penalty.

[LadyHawkAZ]

36. Anti-death penalty

but even when I supported it, I didn't agree with making rape a capital crime. I would fully support longer sentencing than we have now, though.

[Lizzie Poppet]

37. I oppose capital punishment in general.

No "do over" option...and that alone is enough to make me oppose it.

That said, any rape committed against me would very possibly carry a death sentence. Just not an official, legal one...

[GeorgeGist]

39. No.

Castration might be appropriate.

[pipi_k]

41. Like a few

others have said...

putting a popcorn smiley in a post about rape is insensitive.

I'm not even going to bother replying to the question, and I really hope you reconsider...either remove the popcorn smiley or self delete this thread.

[Eleanors38]

43. No cap. punishment for any crime...

Some forty years ago there was debate among women's rights activist on lowering the penalty from death (in Texas) to lesser sentences. The reason: Victims and prosecutors would be more likely to, respectively report and prosecute the crime, and juries would be more likely to convict if the sentence were not "all or nothing." It seemed to be a hedge against jury nullification. The penalties were lowered.

[IdaBriggs]

45. Statistically, most appear to not be reported,

And folks aren't going to jail. The current system doesn't seem to be working, and social media is now allowing lifelong humiliation and bullying of victims which has led several to suicide.

It is interesting to me that most people on this thread are anti death penalty, yet comfortable with long prison sentences, which in our current system do not rehabilitate and create repeat offenders while torturing those non-wealthy few who seem to be convictable.

There is also an interesting sense of ambivalence about how serious a sexual assault should be taken - "still alive" and "can recover from it" are both true, but if this is the take, I suggest we remove "rape culture" from the lexicon and just go with "violent culture" if we believe that a victim's personal sense of self is not impacted anymore than if a drunken brawler had bashed them across the back of a head with a beer bottle during a bar fight.

Acknowledging issues of under reporting as cultural, wikipedia has some interesting data here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics. I found the idea that the "United Arab Emerite" which is not known for its liberal stance on women's rights, reports less than 100 rapes per year (less than 2% per 100,000 people) while the United States which also has an UNDER REPORTING issue is currently in the 26% category - which makes me go --

[Ms. Toad]

52. I don't take "still alive" and "can recover from it"

as ambivalent or a belief that "a victim's personal sense of self is not impacted anymore than if a drunken brawler had bashed them across the back of a head with a beer bottle during a bar fight."

There is a chasm between being dead and being konked on the head in a bar fight. The personal impact rape falls somewhere between the two. And rape culture has more to do with the pervasive impact the ever present possibility of rape has on the day to day lives of (primarily) women.

[IdaBriggs]

63. When 97% of rapists spend 0 time in jail, 54% of victims don't report --

and people question whether sexually based violence is more heinous than "regular" assault, I am not sure "rape culture" is actually an accurate description of the situation. I am still mulling this over, so please bear with me.

Murder is Bad. We create degrees - on purpose/planned versus heat of the moment stupidity versus idiotic foreseeable/preventable.

Assault is Bad, and we "degree" it the same way regardless of whether it is sexual or not. Yet, while most people wouldn't hesitate to notify authorities if a stranger hit them with a beer bottle during a bar brawl, a woman walking to the bar's parking lot who is assaulted or who is drugged by the "nice guy" she met and wakes up in a car with her panties missing may never mention it to anyone, instead blaming herself for putting herself in that situation. (NOTE: I am NOT saying it is her fault; I am acknowledging a common propensity of victims to blame themselves, which gives them the illusion of control over something outside of their control.)

The damage from a broken arm is fairly well established; a broken hymen, not so much. And for non-virgin victims, how do you put a "dollar value" on the damage? "I cringed when my boyfriend touched me" as opposed to "loss of consortium" in a marriage? "I was humiliated and ashamed" as opposed to "the bruises faded, right?"

We actively discourage seeking Vengeance while promising Justice; when neither happens, there doesn't seem to be a lot of incentive for folks to change their ways, does there?

[Ms. Toad]

65. Rape culture is exactly what it is

We live in a culture where rape, unfortunately, is the norm rather than the exception and we train both genders to play their proper role nearly from the day they are born. when Sally is playing nicely and building castles, and Johnny comes along and knocks them down, as often as not the refrain is "boys will be boys." Sally learns there is no point in complaining - it is just how boys act. Johnny learns that he is permitted to have his way and that he need not worry about Sally's feelings - or respect it when Sally says, "No." That is a generalization - but before you (or anyone else who will likely chime in) rejects it, think when the last time you saw a female child act aggressively and heard someone excuse it by saying "girls will be girls." And it isn't that we're training boys to be bad - although we are - we are also training girls that there isn't anything that can be done about they aren't worth very much. It is not healthy for anyone.

[IdaBriggs]

68. No justice. No vengeance. No consequences. Shocking results.

That last bit for the shocking =

Seriously, even when women are trained to kill and armed (see military example), Still No Consequences.

Apparently "rape" isn't a "real" problem.

But if people were running around randomly shooting each other - oh-wait-a-minute.



Sigh.

[Iggo]

48. No.

[Ms. Toad]

49. No.

Both anti-death penalty generally, and specifically for rape.

It is challenging enough to obtain a conviction in rape cases - except when the survivor looks visibly beaten up (and the police documented it so the pictures are displayed to the jury). When you add the possibility that taking the survivor's side might result in the death of someone I believe the conviction rate would plummet. Not to mention that in cases where it is a he-said-she-said dispute, many men can put themselves in the position shoes of the "he" and would be even less likely to convict if conviction might mean the death of someone you relate to.

[nomorenomore08]

51. I think it should be eligible for a life sentence, in some cases, particularly if the victim

is a minor. But not the DP. Then again, I tend to think even mass murderers shouldn't get the DP - just life without parole - so my position on that is fairly absolute.

[wickerwoman]

54. I'm anti-DP

but would support life sentences for serial rapists and child rapists, and longer sentences generally.

The problem with the DP for rape is that it's a notoriously difficult charge to get any conviction on period and throwing the death penalty into the mix would just make juries more hesitant to convict.

[petronius]

55. Nothing should be a capital crime... (nt)

[struggle4progress]

56. Generally anti-DP here. Prefer to decrease application of DP.

I suppose DP-for-rape could deter some rapes -- but I'd also worry it might increase the murder-rate of rape-victims: "Well, now that I've raped her, I'll be executed if I'm caught, so I might as well make sure she can never identify me to anybody"

[Half-Century Man]

57. I have to say yes, There are crimes society should end someone for.

That being said, I think that once a DP has been given. The complete trial transcript and all evidence should be turned over to a regional facility for impartial review, an automatic appeal. That there would be a 12 person board with professionals and lay persons to evaluate each case independently with strict conflict of interest rules. This needs to be done very carefully.

Not all commissions of the same crimes are equal; that is why all trials are stand alone affairs. Which can be influenced by, but not totally bound to, precedents.

[Number23]

58. Yes. If you're saying punishable with the death penalty, I think some forms of rape should be

[David__77]

59. Not at all.

Not in any cases where that is the sole charge. I oppose the death penalty except in very rare cases of wartime.

[IdaBriggs]

60. MORE: Should a victim kill a rapist during an attack? Or immediately thereafter?

An example of the challenges presented in this attitude involve Rape in the Military.

The female victims are armed, trained to kill, frequently know their attackers - and yet the rapists are still alive/walking/not in prison.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/05/us/politics/joint-chiefs-testimony-on-sexual-assault-dismays-senators.html

(snip)

The hearing followed several weeks of reports of sexual assault in the armed forces and a Pentagon survey that estimated that 26,000 people in the armed forces were sexually assaulted last year, up from 19,000 in 2010. Senator Harry Reid of Nevada, the majority leader, who on Tuesday called sexual assault in the military “beyond the pale,” said the Senate would move to address the problem in the coming defense bill. “Something has to be done about it,” he said.

(snip)

Ms. Gillibrand also chided the leaders for sometimes understating the gravity of some of the crimes before them, noting that one commander had told a victim that he believed her assailant had not “acted like a gentleman” but had not committed a crime. “Not every commander can distinguish between a slap on the ass and a rape,” Ms. Gillibrand said.

Several advocates for victims of sexual assault also testified, in some cases offering chilling testimony about women and men who had been sexually abused and then lost their careers by seeking justice. “The military does not create rapists,” said Anu Bhagwati, who served as a Marine captain and is executive director of the Service Women’s Action Network. But, she said, it does “condone sexual violence.”

[Egalitarian Thug]

62. It is just about the worst crime there is. But, no DP, period. n/t

[E_A_]

64. I don't believe in the death penalty

.....so for that reason I answer "No". It IS however a heinous crime, anyone who says otherwise is deep in denial.

I would like to add that statistics on sexual abuse probably are far lower than the actual number since the combinations of denial, amnesia, and the pressures of victim's being shamed or blamed prevent full disclosure. Also familial pressure and societal pressure to not 'betray' your family prevent awareness of the amount of abuse actually done within families.

[IdaBriggs]

70. Which would make death penalty issues even more challenging, eh?

Not only does (insert daddy/step-daddy/mamma's boyfriend) rape you, but if you tell, then a primary financial support of the family (in theory) is gone, and everyone ends up on the street, and it is all YOUR FAULT because YOU TOLD!!!!

Incest survivors have it the worst: their abusers join them at holidays, coping mechanisms frequently result in disastrous life choices, and everyone blames the victim while the perpetrator either calls them crazy, or puts on a facade of decency.



Sigh.

[jwirr]

67. When I was a teen the argument was against because an 18 year old could have consentual sex with

a 16 year old who late explains her pregnancy was due to rape. Keep in mind that many girls quit school to get married at a very young age back then. I was married at 16 and there was no rape involved. This is merely to give you a little of the background on this argument.

[treestar]

74. No

While I am against the death penalty and that may affect my thinking, where it exists, it should only for applied in aggravated cases of first degree murder.

[Scootaloo]

77. I'm anti-death penalty in all cases

So... yeah, there's that.

Nice flamebait topic starter though.

[MrSlayer]

78. I've often advocated for violent rape to be a capital crime.

The rape of children in particular. The Jerry Sanduskys of the world would not be long for it if I had my way.

Of course, I won't have my way so spare me the sermons please. Most of the people here are against capital punishment, I get it. Not all of us are.

[kiva]

81. No.

All that does is give defense attorneys one more thing to throw at juries..."Do you want to put this man to death?" Historically that doesn't end well.