General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsWhat If Richard Nixon Had Had Your E-Mail Password?
If he were President right now, Richard Nixon would absolutely adore today's National Security Agency. Nixon would be able to snoop, shadow and spy at will. He could read your e-mail; see what you've googled; check out your browsing history; find out whom you called, who called you, when you spoke and for how long; and know where you are at every moment, because of that GPS chip in your phone.
And he wouldn't have to offer that lame, barefaced excuse that there was a Communist hiding under your bed. No, all he'd have to say is that there is a terrorist hiding under your bed.
(Maybe you need a bed that's closer to the floor. But then you'd have to watch out for the rats.)
When I was a kid, I sure didn't trust Tricky Dick. But as I grew up, I realized that the problem went well beyond The Trickmeister. He was simply exploiting spytech to its fullest. I learned that President Eisenhower had spied on Eleanor Roosevelt, that J. Edgar Hoover had recorded Martin Luther King Jr.'s private conversations, and that Lyndon Johnson had enlisted the FBI's assistance during his 1964 campaign. For almost a century, the federal government has used surveillance to keep tabs on civil rights, environmentalist, and antiwar activism. Spying on us: it's the one thing that Republicans and Democrats seem to agree on. It's bipartisan. It's as American as apple spy.
That's one reason why the revelations over the past few days of near-universal government surveillance are so disturbing. Microsoft, Google, Apple they're all in on it. Former NSA official William Binney has said that we are "on a slippery slope to a totalitarian state." I don't know what's worse: that I'm not sure he's right, or that I'm not sure he's wrong.
Fortunately, I'm a Member of Congress, so I can do something about it. And you are likely an American citizen and voter, which means that you can help.
I'm introducing a bill that I call the "Mind Your Own Business Act". This bill prohibits our government from spying on us, or collecting data on us, unless there's probable cause that you have committed or you will commit an act of terrorism or similar criminal offense.
I submitted this provision as an amendment to the House Rules Committee today. I am attempting to attach it to the National Defense Authorization Act, which will come up for a vote in the House later this week. Sign your name here to show your support for the Mind Your Own Business Act:
http://MindYourOwnBusinessAct.com/
You'd have to be nuts to think that it's necessary to inquire into the personal web browsing habits, telephone calls and physical location of 320 million Americans in order to keep us safe. What's next are we going to try to prevent hijackings by all flying naked?
Are we going to ban forks and knives? And if so, then how will we eat spaghetti?
Mass indiscriminate surveillance is a necessary ingredient in tyranny. It's also an utterly inefficient means to protect us. Osama Bin Laden routinely sent e-mails for years, completely evading the NSA. Here's how he did it (pay attention, would-be terrorists): He wrote up e-mails, saved them on a $10 thumb drive, and had some lackey send them from a web cafe in Pakistan. Maybe the reason why the NSA couldn't find Osama Bin Laden's e-mails was that they were too busy spying on everyone else in the world. They're the gang that couldn't snoop straight.
Ben Franklin said that "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Leaving aside those quirky initial caps, I agree wholeheartedly.
We didn't give up our constitutional rights 150 years ago, when 1,000,000 heavily armed soldiers rose up in rebellion. Those rebs had cannon, the nuclear weapon of the 19th century. Why should we give up our constitutional rights when a small number of barely armed men on the other side of the world, garbed in sheets, try to threaten us?
We have preserved our freedom and our rights for the past half-century, with over 10,000 nuclear warheads pointed right at us enough to kill all of us even if we were like cats, and had nine lives. Why should we forsake our freedom and our rights now?
This is not North Korea. This is not Maoist China. This is not East Germany. This is the United States of America. If we put the word "Freedom" on our stamps, then we should put it in our lives, too.
For God's sake, we are not cattle. We Are Human Beings!
You're innocent until you're proven guilty, and therefore you ought to be un-snooped until you do something wrong. Let's force the NSA to stop snooping -- join me:
http://MindYourOwnBusinessAct.com/
[link:http://MindYourOwnBusinessAct.com/?source=Jun11DU|Click here for freedom.
]Courage,
Rep. Alan Grayson
"Everybody knows the scene is dead.
There's gonna be a meter on your bed.
That will disclose
What everybody knows."
-Leonard Cohen, "Everybody Knows" (1988).
P.S. Please, please, please forward this to your friends, and urge them to sign the petition.
Whisp
(24,096 posts)wtf? Everybody's jumping on the wagon.
Come back and post next week when things clear up and the truth gets a chance.
Cha
(299,223 posts)while it's HOT, Whisp.. and others like Senator Al Franken are not.
I respect and trust the Senator waaay more than I do fearmongers.. "we're all human beings not cattle!".. and the lying glenn greenwalds.
They're acting like cattle.
Whisp
(24,096 posts)that if Alan Grayson becomes President, like some here think he should be and solve everything, how he would go about changing what is to what he thinks should be. Would he suddenly come upon these awesome powers and be able to do this all on his own?
lordy.
Cha
(299,223 posts)good question. It's so easy to rage on those who actually have the job of protecting people while balancing civil liberties.
I trust Pres Obama and VP Biden to do their job.. they're not out to Screw the American people. I don't care what the whiners on the intertubes say.
Andy823
(11,496 posts)Without congress doing "their" job no president would be able to change this. Sadly our congress isn't doing "their" job so until they do, things will stay the same.
wandy
(3,539 posts)republican obstructionism, multi national corporations, and the general overall I don't give a fu** attitude held by far to many Americans.
Barack, quick use you're Super Vision to get us out of this mess.
Mr. Biden, if I had any supervision we wouldn't be here.
midnight
(26,624 posts)allotment of food share... Trust is a hollow word for the hungry...
Maraya1969
(22,693 posts)In his Rewrite segment Wednesday night, Lawrence O'Donnell tackled a Republican lawmaker's nonsense with regard to the farm bill and SNAP funding. But he danced around the question of why Democrats like Al Franken and Tom Harkin join with Republicans to defeat an amendment restoring funds to the food stamp program. Surely they don't believe that stupid quote about those unwilling to work should not eat, especially when they know the ones hit the hardest are children. So why not vote to restore those funds?
Answer: Farm subsidies. (Third rail, sacred cow, etc.) Senator Kirsten Gillibrand had introduced an amendment to the farm bill restoring $4.5 billion in funding to the SNAP program and reducing crop insurance reimbursements to providers.
It's not that Democrats oppose restoration of funds to the SNAP program, you see. It's that they don't want any subsidy to farmers -- direct or indirect -- to be reduced. As O'Donnell explains in this segment, farm subsidies and their ugly stepsisters like crop insurance reimbursements take precedence over everything, even though they are the absolute worst form of socialism there is.
And petition here: http://campaigns.dailykos.com/p/dia/action/public/?action_KEY=423
midnight
(26,624 posts)DCKit
(18,541 posts)As old as he is, I've heard that Henry is in a constant state of orgasm since 9/11. Somehow, it seems to be prolonging his life.
Andy823
(11,496 posts)My question is - why would he want it?
Whisp
(24,096 posts)SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Sid
greytdemocrat
(3,299 posts)Mr. Hit & Run is back. Is he asking for $$$???
And "Mind Your Own Business Act" is he serious?? JHC...
Why do people worship this clown???
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)SidDithers
(44,228 posts)talk about low-hanging fruit.
Sid
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)SidDithers
(44,228 posts)You don't find that an hilarious comment?
Sometimes the comedy just writes itself.
Sid
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Don't you find it telling that the thread complaining about the responses in this thread has 300 replies?
Seems like Grayson sycophants are doing a pretty good job deflecting the discussion on their own.
Sid
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)The Patriot Act and domestic were programs implemented by REpublicans and now being run by Clapper, a Republican. I am against these Republican programs and hate to think what a REpublican president would do with them if not fixed.
Terrorist threats, imagined or real are being used to erode our Constitutional rights. Those supporting Rep Grayson are standing strong with him to reinstate those rights and to resist the strong authoritarian rule.
WHEN CRABS ROAR
(3,813 posts)We have lost some of our rights, any thoughts on how to get them back?
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)SidDithers
(44,228 posts)that they didn't have the right to use Bernie, given what they've posted.
Fuck that.
Sid
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Sid
WHEN CRABS ROAR
(3,813 posts)Just a word-smith game?
any thoughts about spying and how to get private contractors out of it?
Wow, the government has our email passwords? I bet the Chinese and North Koreans don't even have that on their citizens!
Whisp
(24,096 posts)Gore didn't invent the internet after all, it was the Chairman.
treestar
(82,383 posts)So I ain't gonna make it with anyone anyhow
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)Like Ron Wyden and Alan Grayson standing by the oath they took when they were sworn into office.
Sometimes it's hard to know where those we worked to elect, stand on this most important issue so I am thrilled to see some Democrats never forgetting the most important duty they have.
Would you like me to post the Oaths of Office for elected officials? And I'd be happy to post the 4th Amendment also.
What IS the truth btw? I read the President's speech and frankly it made me even more concerned, especially the part where he said that 'we cannot be 100% safe unless we give up some of our rights'! WTF indeed. I'm sorry you are upset to see the Dems we supported finally speaking up for our rights and actually DOING something about it.
Grayson is a great Democrat, he makes ME proud to be a Democrat.
WHEN CRABS ROAR
(3,813 posts)and DeFazio as my Congressman.
Now is the time to stand up and take back our rights, or else watch this country turn into something that we won't recognize.
mbperrin
(7,672 posts)I do have moments of despair when I see how easily people accept chains.
mbperrin
(7,672 posts)As usual, you have it right.
NightWatcher
(39,343 posts)Hell, Reagan can can have my ATM card number and pin too.
leftstreet
(36,128 posts)Douglas Carpenter
(20,226 posts)DLevine
(1,788 posts)Whisp
(24,096 posts)what...
Are we going to ban forks and knives? And if so, then how will we eat spaghetti?
Mr. Grayson, you need another writer.
Cha
(299,223 posts)NightWatcher
(39,343 posts)or solicit for endless donations.
Andy823
(11,496 posts)I think everybody already has mine. Is there a way I can get some kind of royalties off them selling my address?
KittyWampus
(55,894 posts)sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)TELLING YOU WHO IS AND WHAT HE IS DOING, GIVING YOU THE OPTION TO SAY YES OR NO!! SORRY TO SHOUT BUT THE UTTER ridiculousness of that comment requires trying to help you distinguish between someone STEALING your info in secret, a total stranger or strangers, we don't even know, not telling you they are doing it or WHY or who they are, and someone who is known to you asking you in public to sign a petition and letting you know who they are, what they want and giving you the option to say no.
Do you understand the difference now? I'll be happy to try to explain it more in depth if you don't.
KittyWampus
(55,894 posts)sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)And that is a good thing.
Just signed Rep. Grayson's petition and will be tweeting and emailing and sending it to everyone I know.
It is excellent to see Democrats standing up for our Constitutional Rights, I was beginning to think no one was.
Excellent OP from Rep. Grayson. I guess you didin't read it as you have not commented on it.
awoke_in_2003
(34,582 posts)Doubtful
If it does expect a veto.
JaneyVee
(19,877 posts)Agnosticsherbet
(11,619 posts)Somebody call Dr. Who.
bunnies
(15,859 posts)pinboy3niner
(53,339 posts)Especially as a returned, wounded, Vietnam vet.
FUCK Nixon!
WillyT
(72,631 posts)JI7
(89,381 posts)Autumn
(45,146 posts)siligut
(12,272 posts)Obama had sheer numbers, minorities and women to beat the ReThug's maneuverings. We have to make sure that this scandal on his watch doesn't deter liberals from working toward a government that works for all the people.
bvar22
(39,909 posts)The White House should STOP doing things that will "deter liberals" from enthusiastically support DEMOCRATS.
Refusing to help the Republicans build an authoritarian Surveillance/Security State
will inspire support from the much maligned "Liberals".
Harry Truman explained all this:
"I've seen it happen time after time. When the Democratic candidate allows himself to be put on the defensive and starts apologizing for the New Deal and the Fair Deal, and says he really doesn't believe in them, he is sure to lose. The people don't want a phony Democrat. If it's a choice between a genuine Republican, and a Republican in Democratic clothing, the people will choose the genuine article, every time; that is, they will take a Republican before they will a phony Democrat, and I don't want any phony Democratic candidates in this campaign."
---President Harry Truman
[font size=4]Leadership! "The Buck Stops HERE!" NO Excuses![/font]
mbperrin
(7,672 posts)This mind numbing game playing to placate sociopaths in the Republican party is sending the country and our party to hell.
limpyhobbler
(8,244 posts)Divine Discontent
(21,056 posts)I only wish he could get much needed support in Congress. Regardless, he has the support of millions of Americans like me.
I came to this website a decade ago because I felt from what I was reading, that the admins here were good people, and working with them later showed me that to be true, and I think they are very happy that someone like Congressman Grayson is a member! This website has some wonderful members, and he is one of them.
I am very pleased that someone with a voice in DC, who is in my area, has passion and a desire to fight for what is right and just in America. We owe him our gratitude for taking on the war machine's contractors and winning several years back. If he has something to say, I think it behooves us all to listen.
Regards...
arthritisR_US
(7,306 posts)R B Garr
(17,082 posts)You are fortunate he is in your area. He's very direct with an abundance of common sense, which to me makes him very trustworthy. He's a real asset to his constituents and his Party.
Liberal_Dog
(11,075 posts)Because he sure as hell will get thrown under one now!!
I see the blind defenders are already at it.
Autumn
(45,146 posts)but what the hell, it's a big bus.
Whisp
(24,096 posts)Skip Intro
(19,768 posts)Whisp
(24,096 posts)Skip Intro
(19,768 posts)Whisp
(24,096 posts)yeah, I know it's strange, but ever since Boosh left office it's the thing to do for a selected few and they never go off message. So why are you so upset now?
Skip Intro
(19,768 posts)ANY politician or face personal attacks is as sad and creepy an effort as I've seen.
I am glad to see it wilt.
Whisp
(24,096 posts)do you think Grayson deserves respect here and the President does not, at least not as much? I may have misunderstood but that is what I came away with, with what you said.
Skip Intro
(19,768 posts)backed by an apparent policy to attack the character of those who refuse to play along.
Willful self-delusion and demands that others buy in or shut up is not respect either.
The idea of arguing that certain politicians be above criticism or being questioned, I mean, we're not subjects and Obama is not a king.
I value freedom, and I value truth.
I'm interested in knowing the truth, the complete truth.
I want to know if and how badly the rights of the people were violated by those who were sworn to protect it.
Protection of our Constitutional rights is far more important than ANY politician.
Whisp
(24,096 posts)Rights and violations of rights is important, that goes without saying. But what I see is a group that makes every 'scandal' the last straw and treat each story that the repuglicans and the media feed as the worst abuse of a Presidency ever. Even worse than Bush.
So how am I to take any of this seriously when you get upset about some mild little nothing criticisms about Grayson's post?
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Quick!! Grayson's not being worshipped!!! Everyone get there, stat!!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022996639
Sid
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)Really amazing. How rude. Pitiful.
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)A call-in-the-troops thread is kinda pitiful.
Sid
TheKentuckian
(25,131 posts)R children is a learnin!
graham4anything
(11,464 posts)isn't it amazing.
I am called all sort of names for supporting the FOR HIS WHOLE LIFE DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENT
including "cult of personality"
disconnect.
Response to Alan Grayson (Original post)
Post removed
Raine
(30,565 posts)Initech
(100,384 posts)Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)Uncle Joe
(58,912 posts)something along the lines of "its' already been done."
That argument is irrelevant as past bad behavior doesn't justify even more bad acts now, just because it has already been done to a different extent whether lesser or greater.
When I was a kid, I sure didn't trust Tricky Dick. But as I grew up, I realized that the problem went well beyond The Trickmeister. He was simply exploiting spytech to its fullest. I learned that President Eisenhower had spied on Eleanor Roosevelt, that J. Edgar Hoover had recorded Martin Luther King Jr.'s private conversations, and that Lyndon Johnson had enlisted the FBI's assistance during his 1964 campaign. For almost a century, the federal government has used surveillance to keep tabs on civil rights, environmentalist, and antiwar activism. Spying on us: it's the one thing that Republicans and Democrats seem to agree on. It's bipartisan. It's as American as apple spy.
I didn't trust Nixon either and anyone believing there won't be anymore Nixons are seriously deluding themselves.
Thanks for thread, Alan Grayson and thanks for your service.
Andy823
(11,496 posts)Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)Andy823
(11,496 posts)Got this lovely letter telling me that I had to report for duty. Spent two year of my life in the Army thanks to Nixon, but I was fortunate enough to have been sent to Germany instead of Vietnam, some of the people I went to basic with were not so lucky. I hated the war and the loss of death it caused, and I hated Nixon, but didn't have a clue as to what an email was back in those days. Most of the men I served with felt the same way.
The few emails I send to day are not that interesting, hell they even bore me, and I wrote them. If some body really wanted to bore themselves and read them, I could care less. Oh and I still hate wars and what it does to our young men and women.
AzDar
(14,023 posts)tritsofme
(17,575 posts)"Maoist China" "East Germany" comparing the Obama administration to these entities makes you look more ridiculous than usual.
Catherina
(35,568 posts)moondust
(20,095 posts)On the other side of the argument, would any President or Congressperson step up and take responsibility for failing to prevent a devastating dirty bomb detonation because they voted to somehow "cripple" intelligence gathering that might have prevented it?
I can understand how political leaders would naturally want at their disposal every tool available to help them do their #1 job, protecting the American people, without fail. I don't know where the balance lies.
Thanks for posting, Congressman.
longship
(40,416 posts)First, I use diceware to generate a unique, random phrase of significant length. Then I tweak it using a method I do not reveal to anybody.
It's much more secure than any password.
I used to use PGP for my emails, but most people wouldn't play -- it's too complicated!! (What? To click a decrypt link?) However, I worked at a couple of companies where all correspondence was PGP encrypted. Not even NSA can break those.
jazzimov
(1,456 posts)Please Google invalid equivalence.
siligut
(12,272 posts)Asking people to Google for your opinion is just shoddy.
Luminous Animal
(27,310 posts)jazzimov
(1,456 posts)and educate themselves instead of just posting knee-jerk reactions.
jazzimov
(1,456 posts)and I'll try to keep it simple and talk.....real....slow.
First of all, an invalid or false equivalence is NOT an opinion, which you would know if you had followed my advice. It is a logical fallacy, or "logic fail" if you will. It's basically "comparing apples to oranges". For a fuller and better explanation along with examples, Google it. Or Bing it, whatever.
So, I was trying to point out that the comparison he was trying to make was not a good comparison, hopefully so he (or more likely one of his secretaries) wouldn't make the same mistake in the future. Such a logic fail often invalidates the entire argument.
So, I was not trying to make him Google my "opinion" as you accused me of.
siligut
(12,272 posts)Which of his comparisons do you have a problem with?
demwing
(16,916 posts)Condescending attitude is definition enough.
truebrit71
(20,805 posts)Thanks for the thread Congressman, and thank you for introducing the bill.
MrScorpio
(73,631 posts)I truly do.
However, you and I both know how this thing got started and why it's going on the way that it is. It's the same process that's going on with Defense appropriations and just about any other corporation that the government contracts with.
Wouldn't it be possible to shrink the growth of this National Security State by reducing the amount of outsourcing that the government does with private contractors? Now, of course, it's necessary to limit what the NSA does, who it can surveil, what information it can gather, what it can do with that information, so forth and so on. But isn't this just half of picture?
How are you going to push back of the compartmentalization of private contract resources that serve as guarantees of support by other members of Congress that have these facilities located in their districts?
Also, we know that the NSA is focusing on the US side because this country serves as the largest hub for global telecommunications. They do this mostly as a stop gap against other countries who may try to do the same thing against the US and the rest of the world. What efforts are you sponsoring to prevent some kind of global telecom cold war from happening if the US creates a vacuum by reducing its own activities?
Is it possible to rescind the authority of as many copycat agencies within the government, that conduct telecom surveilling, without violating the laws that restrict these agencies from conducting ops outside of their realm of responsibility? How many Intelligence Agencies does the government really need?
Yes, we have all been sold a bill of goods, in the form of the so-called "terrorist threat," to justify the expansion of the National Security state... We all know that it's utter bullshit. It's like using a sledgehammer to kill a fly. What's really going on is that these agencies really have no idea what they're doing and why they're doing it, right?
Shouldn't the Congress seek to limit what those responsibilities are and then appropriate at a much reduced rate in order to accommodate that limitation? Something like that will kill the building boom of contractors within the Beltway to a more manageable degree.
The problem really is a matter of over-capacity in the telecom surveillance arena.
I suggest that what must be done first is the repeal of the PATRIOT Act and that the Congress conduct a systematic effort to reduce the size, outsourcing and scope of our telecom surveillance capacity. Yes, I'm very concerned about the invasions of privacy that these agencies are responsible for. However, I know that if they're not curbed and their size limited, it's not going to be very easy to control them.
mbperrin
(7,672 posts)Second every line.
H2O Man
(73,994 posts)that the "Patriot Act" is actually an updated version of the Nixon administration's "Huston Plan" (see the Senate Watergate Committee report on the Huston Plan). It was this plan that outlined the strategy that led directly to the series of felonies, known collectively as "Watergate." The primary difference between the Patriot Act and the Huston Plan is simply the technological advances that make "spying" so much easier today.
I will gladly sign the petition, and send it along to family, friends, and associates around the country.
Thank you for this.
I tried (twice) signing the petition. Both times, I got a response that my e-mail address is not a valid e-mail address. It definitely is valid. I will try again later.
GReedDiamond
(5,322 posts)Loudly
(2,436 posts)To what extent would he have benefitted from his own normalization intiative?
dlwickham
(3,316 posts)next silly question
Skip Intro
(19,768 posts)for Constitutional Rights.
Thank you.
HipChick
(25,485 posts)maxrandb
(15,545 posts)Look, just because you made a name for yourself by rightfully slamming the Bush Admin, and championing good liberal policies, that does not mean you are always right, or even make sense.
Just answer a few questions for me if you would, and you'd see how completely crazy your Nixon analogy,,,errr,,,sorry...Your "Let me Equate Obama with Nixon" drivel is.
I know, I know...you throw around outrageous words, and I'm sure it's good for a few campaign donations, or maybe a stint on MSNBC, but there are serious differences between this, and what Nixon was doing.
Did Nixon brief the Congress on what he was doing?
Was Nixon following the law?
Did Nixon go before a FISA Court, or a Federal Judge to obtain a wiretap, or get authorization for the bugging of the Watergate Hotel?
Did Nixon go to a judge and subpoena the Mental Health records of Daniel Elsberg, or did he try to have them stolen?
Did Nixon have his staff do a review of a surveillance program to ensure it met the legal standard set by Congress??
Look, just like the guy says in the movie Jaws; "You yell barracuda, and people go; 'what, huh'" , but..."You yell shark!...and you've got a panic on your hands".
Same shit here. You start throwing the "Nixon" word around, you'd better be able to back it up. If you can't provide answers to my questions above, and then recognize that this is about as far from Nixon as you can get, then I will have to assume that your only purpose in "crying Nixon" is for your own self aggrandizement.
Please stop it.
Oh and guess what...Obama ain't no Nixon, and he sure as hell ain't no Bush...that's kind of why we voted for him.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)You missed the entire point of the OP, Obama will not be president until the end of time, the OP isn't about Obama it's about what happens after Obama when eventually a Republican becomes President.
You know, like Nixon was president. We've dodged a couple of nasty bullets with McCain and Romney, no one stays lucky forever.
maxrandb
(15,545 posts)he would have to follow the law, or he'd be BREAKING THE LAW.
You seem to have very little faith in our Democracy. I on the other hand, feel that the checks and balances we've had in place for over 200 years seems to work pretty good.
Presidents have overreached before, and they've been smacked down for it. I actually believe in the American people, and believe that this particular NSA program strikes the proper balance between freedom and national security. You know, those things are not incongruous. You can actually have both.
What you can't have is people trying to scare folks with the specter of "Nixon".
Because you know, in the grand scheme of things, the whole Nixon affair happened to work out the way it's supposed to work out.
He was forced to resign in shame, and about the only thing that is left of that legacy is the Republicans "Ahabian" pursuit of some Democratic President's equivalent lawlessness...we shouldn't be helping them in the quest for their Great White Whale.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)So far they're sitting fat and happy, not remotely "smacked down". Half the shit in America is named after Ronald "Iran Contra but I can't recall" Reagan.
So much has gone down since Nixon, it's not Dick Nixon's America any more, not remotely.
GoneFishin
(5,217 posts)Ms. Toad
(34,423 posts)Determining whether the people in office are following the law requires the ability to know what they are doing to test it against the law - and the checks and balances you put so much faith in include appellate review, and at the trial level a fair battle between zealous advocates for opposing viewpoints (which puts the best argument for each side in front of the judge, not an unopposed request from one side), both of which are written out of this law.
emulatorloo
(44,365 posts)are breaking the law.
So they believe they have taken care of the "Obama will not be president" angle.
Whether or not the safeguards are "good enough" is another debate.
Ms. Toad
(34,423 posts)and can't be reviewed by a court of law. So if they aren't, who will know?
backscatter712
(26,355 posts)ReRe
(10,597 posts)K&R
... one question though... Can you add, in this "Mind Your Own Business Act" the words "government contractors" as well? Looks like our government doesn't do any more DIRECT snooping, but it's all contracted out to God only knows who/which snooping Corporation.
As a matter of fact, in the near future can you author a bill loosely titled "Get Your Corporation Out of Our Government Act"? Yeah, that one might have to wait until after 2014, as Speaker Boehner would never let it come to the floor. BUT, that doesn't mean you can't start working on it now!
I did everything you asked. Good luck to you, and to all of us!
ReRe
emulatorloo
(44,365 posts)mountain grammy
(26,778 posts)ReRe
(10,597 posts)4bucksagallon
(975 posts)Sounds more like a T'Bagger site than DU. I don't see any future here on this site I keep hoping for better but daily I am disappointed.
DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)Do you not find it incongruous that Congressman Grayson is to the left of you, but you're tarring him with a 'bagger brush anyway? I despair for the future of my party.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)remote similarity between him and any right wing tea-bagger. DU is a Democratic site and this is the first time in my recollection that a Democratic Congressman whose Dem creds are impeccable has ever been attacked here.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)ended. Laws like Bush's Patriot Act and domestic spying. Laws that Bush and the Republicans love. Now we have the authoritarian wing of the Democratic Party loving these same laws.
Some here swear that they know the President isnt doing anything wrong, yet there are conflicting reports as to what is actually being done. And new evidence is being revealed every day. But again some are sure it's legal. What ever he is doing has to be legal.
Repeal George Bush's Patriot Act and end illegal domestic spying.
Gore1FL
(21,251 posts)I don't advocate for government searching it. Nonetheless, anyone who thinks email is secure knows an insufficient amount about email. There is no more expectation of privacy that Mitch McConnell has when he has a loud meeting about Asley Judd and how to make her a victim of the politics of personal destruction.
G1F
PS: I vote with those above who believe you need a new writer. The appeal to outrage is a poor and distasteful approach. Try to appeal to intelligence and reason next time. Most of us aren't easily gamed.
Kennah
(14,407 posts)kentuck
(111,243 posts)TheKentuckian
(25,131 posts)We are in a hard place and have been in it for a while now. I hope you have friends and associates of like mind, resources, and/or influence to help move things along on the inside. When folks are chasing dollars, it is hard to keep of a collar.
Fire Walk With Me
(38,893 posts)Thank you for being present for the people, for knowing about the NDAA, and for taking a stand to do something!
struggle4progress
(118,566 posts)about the issues involved here. I'd suggest you try to get together with a bunch of them and try to study some of the following issues:
(1) Eliminating the current ability to search older-than-180-days emails without a warrant;
(2) Eliminating national security letters;
(2) Restricting dragnet telephone records collection;
(3) Restricting the FISA courts, in terms of the warrants they can issue, and tightening the time frame for review;
(4) Discussing with major civil liberties groups the many issues still raised by the Patriot Act
Courageous congressional action is really needed, but crafting a new consensus on The Hill may take time -- and a lot of egos are involved
LeftInTX
(26,269 posts)Th1onein
(8,514 posts)Rep. Grayson, I'm a Texan, but I'm going to start donating to your campaigns from now on. At least that way I know that I'm supporting a true liberal.
Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)then to this thread. No matter how wrong President Obama is, he can count on this cadre (as long as it involves no action of sacrifice for them personally, of course).
& R
Douglas Carpenter
(20,226 posts)pa28
(6,145 posts)Private contractors having access and government authorized control over a huge pool of integrated personal data is the scariest part of all.
Turning personal data into a separate product and reselling for profit will and probably has happened. To simply sit on that information would be bad business.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)pipoman
(16,038 posts)for taking time to come here. It is refreshing and hopeful to see someone proclaim "the king has no clothes". We need a leader who can bring the disenfranchised voters...millions of us together by fighting for us..empower us to help get our country back..for our privacy, for our jobs, for the good of the 99%..this is a great start to earning the confidence of voters everywhere..
backscatter712
(26,355 posts)Divine Discontent
(21,056 posts)Whisp
(24,096 posts)They are not all in on it. Get up to speed. This is very disappointing coming from someone who should know better.
Greenwald initially said that but he was wrong wrong wrong. NSA do not have 'direct access' like he wants you to believe (that they can just hook up to Google, etc., any time they like - which is what fear mongering Glenn wanted his audience to think).
They can have access yes but they have to ask first in the proper legal way. All the corps denied any such thing but of course once the truth is told the lie has already made it's way half way across the world.
pipoman
(16,038 posts)Microsoft, Google and Apple have long allowed law enforcement overreaching and has added features to their products solely for the purpose of spying on their users. There is no reason Microsoft and Apple products need to store my browser history since the day I opened my computer..this is a feature added to a product which I purchased from them, the sole function is to record my activity for any future law enforcement investigation..seems counter to great customer service, eh?
Tx4obama
(36,974 posts)... that information a person has "knowingly exposed" to a third party is NOT protected by the 4th amendment.
-snip-
Thus, some Supreme Court cases have held that you have no reasonable expectation of privacy in information you have "knowingly exposed" to a third party for example, bank records or records of telephone numbers you have dialed even if you intended for that third party to keep the information secret. In other words, by engaging in transactions with your bank or communicating phone numbers to your phone company for the purpose of connecting a call, youve "assumed the risk" that they will share that information with the government.
-snip-
http://www.democraticunderground.com/101665881
Morning Dew
(6,539 posts)and thank you !
Jamastiene
(38,187 posts)SamKnause
(13,194 posts)Thank you Congressman Grayson.
Petition signed and sent.
Keep up the good work !!!!!
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)backscatter712
(26,355 posts)People are still confused about what the NSA's capabilities are, so they need it delivered short and sweet.
What the NSA's got in PRISM and related programs is a giant search engine, like Google, powered by billions of dollars of computers in their data centers, with tentacles in every major telecommunications center, using law-enforcement back doors.
Go onto Google, you can type a few words, and get information on just about anything. And that's the toy we get to play with in civilian-land.
The NSA's Google, aka PRISM works much the same way. Type in a few keywords, and you can violate the privacy of any person in the world at will.
Google for spooks.
Tx4obama
(36,974 posts)... ya'll should get together so that ya'll can hash over the details.
Senator Franken has been in The Senate now since 2009, and you've only been back to The House since Jan 2013.
Perhaps you've missed some important stuff - he can fill you in.
Al Franken Defends NSA Surveillance: Its Not Spying, Theyre Protecting Us
http://livewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/entry/al-franken-defends-nsa-surveillance-this-is-not?ref=fpb
p.s. I still love ya and support you, but I disagree with you on this issue
DRoseDARs
(6,810 posts)Corruption Inc
(1,568 posts)Rec'd!
ut oh
(924 posts)and thank you for all of your hard work sir!
joshcryer
(62,297 posts)This is not Venezuela!
Douglas Carpenter
(20,226 posts)freedom.
idwiyo
(5,113 posts)Rhiannon12866
(209,351 posts)Laelth
(32,017 posts)Thank you, Congressman Grayson!
For all you do.
-Laelth
Skidmore
(37,364 posts)Then I'd like to see some serious work directed toward sorting out that snake pit of the intelligence community alphabet soup agencies and the military who have an unholy alliance now. Standing in one place and screaming "Leave me alone resolves nothing" and leaves the systemic sources of overreach in place.
Sancho
(9,073 posts)I assume some of the posters on this thread weren't around during the Nixon years.
Let's put a stop to this crazy program of spying on everyone - much less wasting more money on crazy contractors. Heck, I'd sign a petition to get rid of the NSA if there was one. Shut 'em down and build schools instead.
bike man
(620 posts)Cooley Hurd
(26,877 posts)President Obama won't be in power forever - whomever gets to exercise these powers then MIGHT be a Republican.
TNNurse
(6,963 posts)he would maybe have known my brother was on the way to Canada....and he would have certainly known what a lying crook I thought he was. Without having this technology, when the FBI called looking for my brother (yes, a family member reported him) they knew my and my sister's names. They also lied to my mother and said that if he came home then he could go into the army and not serve time in prison.
Puzzledtraveller
(5,937 posts)fredamae
(4,458 posts)It seems there is a better less intrusive way to protect both our rights And us.
If we give up all freedoms to protect our freedoms? Where and what the hell does that leave us?
You have my support.
Octafish
(55,745 posts)...compared to what his old handler's progeny are doing today.
Baron de Rothschild and Prescott Bush, share a moment and some information, back in the day.
Note the typed description on the back of the photo, common practice in official photographs,
and the rumpled aspect along one edge, suggesting it passed through a wirephoto machine.
reusrename
(1,716 posts)Of course it's you, congressman, making that call.
There may be another approach though. This social networking information that is being collected could be used to fight actual crime. That might be a noble thing to do. One thing for sure, it would force a pretty rapid shutdown of the whole program since it seems to be the criminals (specifically, the war criminals) that are running the whole show.
Yeah, that's the ticket. Let's use the system to track war criminals. That will put an end to it!
Dash87
(3,220 posts)dream of doing. Why would Al Qaeda need to do anything? We're already self-destructing into a secret police state.
cer7711
(502 posts)Exactly right on every count!
I had no doubt you would be able to put this issue in the proper context for the uninformed/willfully ignorant.
SO proud of you this morning!
Le Taz Hot
(22,271 posts)malthaussen
(17,307 posts)I could do without the Franklin quote -- something we see everywhere these days. I know the context under which he said it, and I bet ol' Ben would be amused at how it is being applied today.
So it appears your bill will re-state the 4th Amendment and extend it to include surveillance, which is probably a good idea. I think this is one case where the Founders lacked the foresight to imagine the strides technology would take in the future. They wanted the mails to be secure -- and the mails still are secure -- so I imagine they would be pretty outraged at the acts currently taken by law enforcement and security agencies to evade the Constitution.
But why stop at surveillance? What about no-knock warrants? What about the many government agencies who are exempt from the 4th Amendment altogether? Much of the substance of the Bill of Rights was intended to limit the efficiency of law enforcement because the Founders feared it being corrupted for the uses of tyranny. Much of what we have done in my lifetime and yours has been devised to improve the efficiency of law enforcement "to make us safer." Law and Order is always a big vote-getter, nyet?
Oh, and we did abrogate parts of the Constitution during the Civil War. Check your history. Wartime acts to suspend such niceties as habeas corpus are typical in our history. The rap now is that we are in a constant state of war (as Mr Orwell foresaw), and thus wartime exigencies may be applied across-the-board. This is a systemic problem, and we need to attack it at its roots. Our endless "wars" against drugs, terrorists, or whatever, need to be brought to an end. Congress needs to reclaim the duty it cravenly surrendered, and ensure that no war is carried out without a declaration of such by our elected representatives. Not that it would help much, considering the hordes of Congressmen and Senators who jumped at the chance to enact the Patriot Act, and to promote and fund endless conflict and increase the power of the Executive beyond historic bounds. But it would be a step in the right direction.
-- Mal
Nimajneb Nilknarf
(319 posts)Because Mr. Nixon is deceased.
Ben Franklin said that "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Leaving aside those quirky initial caps, I agree wholeheartedly.
Thank you, Congressman.
hlthe2b
(102,982 posts)I don't mean to be hyperbolic, but it certainly feels as though our government has decided our own people are the enemy as much, or nearly as much, as Al Qaida operatives.
reusrename
(1,716 posts)The true insurgents are the ones who are trying to change things. They are the only threat to the ones who are behind this spying.
tarheelsunc
(2,117 posts)I don't think the Congressman just posted this here and left without bothering to respond to anything, and I am sure if someone searched they'd find this same letter on other progressive sites.
hlthe2b
(102,982 posts)On several occasions.
kentuck
(111,243 posts)He took questions from DU'ers one time. There are some serious people that post here.
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/06/11/1215518/-What-If-Richard-Nixon-Had-Had-Your-E-Mail-Password
Look, he's got accounts at FDL and Kos, too.
Sid
Whisp
(24,096 posts)He is simply promoting his message to as many people as he can and harvesting signatures for his cause. Nothing wrong with that.
What is weird tho is that when he, or his staff, posts the form letter, some people on DU think they are his special little snowflakes and take personal offense when it's shown they aren't so special after all as the same message is posted in many other places.
People are funny.
Response to tarheelsunc (Reply #148)
Post removed
hlthe2b
(102,982 posts)I can think of many many areas where this has been demonstrated to be true.
Take medical research... New epidemiologists and researchers tend to think they need to ask EVERY question possible in a study--only to find that this dramatically weakens or negates the abiity (power) to find the answer to the immediate question that they seek. This is a primary statistical principle and I'll save others the details except to say the more you ask, the more chance for meaningless (chance) correlations to emerge solely, masking any ability to make valid assumptions. In other words, the more data you collect and try to analyze the more likely for "false positive findings" to emerge.
That principle in science is crudely known as "garbage in, garbage out"....
Even with unlimited resources (which I'd bet even the most powerful nation in the world can not assure), there is simply no way to glean timely valid information on such unfocused data mining. And the lack of trust by the people in our government that has resulted--not to mention our angry allies, makes (IMHO) this the policy of fools.
stupidicus
(2,570 posts)here too, as well as demonstrated by the polls. Who's doing it appears to be more important to many than what's being done.
Maybe it should be suggested that it's being done in part due to the alarming DHS report from 2009 regarding the growing rightwing extremist threat in this country, so that a fire can be lit under the right like the now largely debunked IRS scandal did. There may be more truth to this.
Melinda
(5,465 posts)forestpath
(3,102 posts)datasuspect
(26,591 posts)make sure you fly commercial congressman.
please.
Robb
(39,665 posts)nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)Good job
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Sid
WHEN CRABS ROAR
(3,813 posts)forks and knives.
Hydra
(14,459 posts)And know that I am entirely embarrassed by many of the posts above mine in what used to be my home, DU.
I'm glad to know that someone in Congress still fights the good fight for the base level laws our Government was built on, but that many people seem to think are entirely unnecessary- we can trust Big Brother, right?
Ganja Ninja
(15,953 posts)Better late than never we get control of our intelligence agencies.
ctsnowman
(1,903 posts)Sorry about the Reagan Democrats on here.
Thanks for your service
Ash_F
(5,861 posts)cbdo2007
(9,213 posts)If they don't have to follow the Constitution, they don't have to follow your new bill.
WHEN CRABS ROAR
(3,813 posts)Any thoughts
cbdo2007
(9,213 posts)I understand your point....but just creating more laws for them to break is part of the problem. There is no accountability anymore.
Maven
(10,533 posts)Phlem
(6,323 posts)Rep. Alan Grayson.
Spot on.
-p
Duer 157099
(17,742 posts)"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."
calimary
(81,988 posts)Yukari Yakumo
(3,013 posts)Because they way you present it so unrealistically simplified it only serves to encourage the paranoia and fear-mongering of naive libertarians. But it is not the truth. You see, it's a two-tier process. The first, the one everyone is in a mass panic over, collects virtually everything. But do you seriously believe anyone could organize the sheer manpower and infrastructure to go though it all? Give me a break. Furthermore, the second stage, is the retrieval of said data and that is restricted and requires a justifiable cause to do so.
Truth is, all you making are stale, old strawman arguments that do not hold up to any scrutiny.
Oh, and the reason it took so long to get OBL? Because the e-mails didn't tell where he was, but his courier did. And identifying who that courier was key to taking OBL down.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)midnight
(26,624 posts)rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)This is what we are up against. Posters that think it's fun to swarm-bully and high five each other. They rationalize that they are righteously defending their leader. This is what happens when the Rep Party shrinks. They come to the Democratic Party and bring their authoritarianism with them.
Thank you Rep for fighting the good fight. It looks like an uphill battle.
bvar22
(39,909 posts)Judging from the embarrassing whining and childish Acting Out in this thread, it looks like Rep Grayson delivered a whole load of Woodshed Whoop Ass to the more conservative, authoritarians at DU
who are just FINE with the Surveillance/Security State direction we are headed.
Congrats to Rep Grayson!
Its a nasty job, but someone had to do it!
Sognefjord
(229 posts)99Forever
(14,524 posts)It is an honor and a privilege to sign your petition, it's good to see that there are still a few members of the Democratic Party that are NOT willing to sell out their constituents for a bag of magic beans.
mnhtnbb
(31,505 posts)ConservativeDemocrat
(2,720 posts)You know as well as I do that we have FISA courts whose job it is to oversee that all subpoenas comply with the law. That law already states that without probable cause, conversations between Americans cannot be examined. There is absolutely no evidence that this law has been broken.
And many of your other points are pure hyperbole. 320 million Americans are not being spied on. As of last year there were less than 2000 FISA warrants issued in the U.S., which in a nation of this size is less than 1 in 160,000 people. And that assumes they're distributed evenly, when clearly they're focused on people who associate with foreigners who are violent extremists.
I do agree that America is not North Korea, Maoist China, or East Germany. Such comparisons are overwrought and unwarranted.
- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community
WHEN CRABS ROAR
(3,813 posts)Are you OK with infiltrating and spying on domestic peace and environmental groups that show no signs of doing anything illegal.
Are you saying that if I don't talk to foreigners and sit home and watch TV, I won't be spied on, and oh yeah, the government doesn't lie to us, is that what you are saying.
ConservativeDemocrat
(2,720 posts)But I'll answer anyway.
"Locking foreigners up without any charges filed". - These are called POWs.
"Infiltrating & spying on domestic peace groups" - Seems an abuse of police discretion. It has nothing to do with these NSA programs though.
"Am I saying that if you don't talk to foreigners and sit home and watch TV, you won't be spied on?" - No. You will be. By Verizon. Who wants to sell you crap you don't need. However your chances of being spied on by Israeli, British, Chinese, and Russian intelligence services (who have the legal right to do so by their laws) is practically nil. And the NSA legally can't, and flat out doesn't want to.
"Oh yeah, the government doesn't lie to us, is that what you are saying." - Basically, yeah. I am not paranoid kook like Limbaugh and Beck who see the "government" headed by a big scary black man as all encompassing evil.
If you are really so intimidated by what the NSA is doing, living in fear like so many in this world actually do (instead of mere liberal-hipster / tea-party whining about "oppression" of other people making fun of your absurdities), then you wouldn't be feeling so free to make such statements.
- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community
SammyWinstonJack
(44,130 posts)blkmusclmachine
(16,149 posts)WHEN CRABS ROAR
(3,813 posts)We have already lost some of our important rights, are you OK with that?
I'm not.
What are you going to do about it? Make jokes about forks and knives, that's productive.
I've been spied on since the early sixties and I'm fucking tired of it.
Again I ask, what are we going to do about it?
Lets start that discussion, any thoughts?
flvegan
(64,444 posts)I remember when this place was overrun with liberals and progressives. Good times.
bvar22
(39,909 posts)This board used to embrace traditional Democratic Party values.
Now, people are cheering on a executive branch with Unitary Perpetual WAR Powers,
and attacks on Social Security?
I am embarrassed by the childish acting out in this thread.
It really is just a handful of repetitive screamers conducting a Mutual Masturbation swarm attack,
but it looks more like FR than DU.
I feel like send an apology to Rep Grayson for our bratty, ill mannered children.
I wouldn't take them into a WalMart.
steve2470
(37,461 posts)Deep13
(39,154 posts)...just like in that Dr. Who episode!
Serious, spying on civilians=bad. 4th Amendment=good.
bike man
(620 posts)another:
What If Richard Nixon Had Had Your E-Mail Password?
If he were President right now
If Mr Nixon "had had your E-mail password" he would not have had very many. Email was not very common in the 1970s.
Further, "If he were President right now" is total conjecture. Inasmuch as Mr Nixon has been dead for several years, it is totally impossible to say what he would or would not be doing - with anything.
MrModerate
(9,753 posts)Even though I'm convinced that dismantling the Patriot Act is where we should really start.
madinmaryland
(64,939 posts)We do not bite, thought there can be a bit of snark.
TIA.
cantbeserious
(13,039 posts)eom
Vincardog
(20,234 posts)11548 people have signed our petition -
46% toward our goal of 25000!
panader0
(25,816 posts)mbperrin
(7,672 posts)I'm 61 and truly disgusted by the overpowering size of current infringements on the whole population.
Thank you for your service.
Please walk across the aisle and slap a couple of Texas congressfolk for me!
Left2Tackle
(64 posts)Our President didn't start this ball rolling, but by keeping it rolling who knows how the next administration will use this. Or the one after that.
LWolf
(46,179 posts)Thank you.