Tue Jun 11, 2013, 10:11 PM

We are being manipulated to miss the point.

The point is not whether laws have been passed to allow the spying. All governments that turn authoritarian attempt to "legalize" what they do.

The point is not whether anyone listens to the phone calls, although we have no reason whatsoever to trust that they don't/won't.

The point is not even that the FISA court is rubber stamping every single request that it receives, although this fact certainly drives home what a kangaroo court and illusion of responsible legal oversight we are dealing with here.

The point is that the Fourth Amendment REQUIRES PROBABLE CAUSE before the United States government may intrude into the privacy of citizens.

When a criminal is loose in this country, the government may not send out police officers en masse to demand entry into and search every home of millions of Americans in an attempt to find him. They need probable cause to invade your privacy...to have access to your home and your private life and information.

Our government has now outrageously decided that it has the right to preemptively demand, sweep up, and STORE the daily, detailed private activities and communication information of every American citizen. That they promise to get warrants to view or use the information after they collect it is outrageously beside the point. They have no business whatsoever collecting it and storing it for government use *in the first place.*

The propagandists are deliberately creating arguments about the circumstances under which the stored material may be viewed, or the process by which permission to view it is obtained. They are deliberately and manipulatively trying to frame the debate so that the sweeping collection/storage of our private material is a GIVEN, and we fight about the legal process that occurs afterward for use of the data.

Building surveillance files full of the private, daily activities and communication of millions of citizens is what totalitarian governments do. It creates an entire infrastructure through which the government has the means to preemptively target any citizen they consider problematic, through access to the minute details of their lives. It is an invitation to abuse and tyranny.

Read the Fourth Amendment again:

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

On what probable cause does the US government have the right to demand, collect, and store the contents of YOUR daily private phone calls, emails, and internet activity, and that of millions of other Americans?

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103 replies	Author	Time	Post
We are being manipulated to miss the point. (Original post)	woo me with science	Jun 2013	OP
They're trying to find probable cause. And that crosses a line.	Gregorian	Jun 2013	#1
How else will they	nineteen50	Jun 2013	#65
Exactly, this has nothing to do with "terrorism", and all to do with the new corporate police-state.	Civilization2	Jun 2013	#69
They control protest & real descent by...	SkyDaddy7	Jun 2013	#77
Keep telling yourself that.	nineteen50	Jun 2013	#79
Please prove me wrong?!?!	SkyDaddy7	Jun 2013	#80
What do you think happened to	nineteen50	Jun 2013	#82
First of all, even if the local authorities are doing worse doesnt justify the NSA doing the same.	rhett o rick	Jun 2013	#92
Ahhh, Local Police Forces do not have those capabilities,	bvar22	Jun 2013	#94
Checking your cell phone to see if you've been in a place that serves liquor (nt)	Babel_17	Jun 2013	#83
Nobody is saying that you broke any laws, what we're saying is...	dkf	Jun 2013	#2
Actually,	ProSense	Jun 2013	#3
the debate is about the right of the government to preemptively harvest and store ALL our	usGovOwesUs3Trillion	Jun 2013	#5
The date of a court decision isn't much of a factor in US jurisprudence.	cheapdate	Jun 2013	#25
Here's a link to the full-text opinion of Smith v. Maryland, 1855	AnotherMcIntosh	Jun 2013	#31
That description of the precedent established in Smith v. Maryland, 1855	cheapdate	Jun 2013	#56
1979 - Smith v. Maryland, 442 U.S. 735 (1979)?	AnotherMcIntosh	Jun 2013	#35
But if the American people are smart enough to stand up	truedelphi	Jun 2013	#38
It's up to the People to object	marions ghost	Jun 2013	#53
True and that ruling doesn't cover what we are talking about today	usGovOwesUs3Trillion	Jun 2013	#48
+1. Smith v. Maryland, 442 U.S. 735 (1979) - No warrant required for call metadata	graham4anything	Jun 2013	#51
You need to read Smith v Maryland where it doesn't actually say that, or at least # 3 above.	AnotherMcIntosh	Jun 2013	#58
1979. That was long before the government had this massive	JDPriestly	Jun 2013	#88
Look at guns, when the 2nd was written, they were talking about cannons and such.	graham4anything	Jun 2013	#89
Thanks for illustrating the ops point.	L0oniX	Jun 2013	#64
Can't help but notice	Android3.14	Jun 2013	#68
Founding fathers explicitly sanctioned	JaneyVee	Jun 2013	#4
LOL.	GoneFishin	Jun 2013	#8
Founding fathers explicitly outlawed	brett_jv	Jun 2013	#13
Except that, in your example, they did.	Egalitarian Thug	Jun 2013	#37
WTF?	CrispyQ	Jun 2013	#57
Just tired of right-wing idiocy being thrown out in quantities suitable to yahoo or	Egalitarian Thug	Jun 2013	#74
Got it.	CrispyQ	Jun 2013	#101
Awww, having a bad day, or just want to show everyone what league you really should be in? n/t	A Simple Game	Jun 2013	#66
I'm sorry, did you have a point, or is it just a need to defend wrong? n/t	Egalitarian Thug	Jun 2013	#75
I'm sorry you seem to have misunderstood, I wasn't defending you. n/t	A Simple Game	Jun 2013	#90
When all else fails go to the snark. nm	rhett o rick	Jun 2013	#93
Snark that makes the point is grist for the mill. What would be DU w/o snark...	Egalitarian Thug	Jun 2013	#96
I'll bet Benjamin Frankin is spinning in his grave	dflprincess	Jun 2013	#6
I think we just solved the world's energy crisis!	backscatter712	Jun 2013	#19
Apparently some people enjoy taking a crap on the Constitution.	limpyhobbler	Jun 2013	#7
Probably cause PARTICULARLY DESCRIBING the things to be seized.	snot	Jun 2013	#9
sorry Woo...it's all ok cuz the courts have said it's "legal" according to them only nt	msongs	Jun 2013	#10
The courts said slavery was legal, and black people weren't human beings.	backscatter712	Jun 2013	#20
There is a question as to whether a person has a right of privacy to a LOG of activities.	Honeycombe8	Jun 2013	#11
Well, we do know that we don't own the Internet, so that by not 'owning' it...	Amonester	Jun 2013	#12
No, it has not ...	brett_jv	Jun 2013	#18
Like, if YOU don't want anyone to sneek on what you consider YOUR privacy...	Amonester	Jun 2013	#24
"...is pretty easily argued as being the property of the phone company..."	Volaris	Jun 2013	#29
Seems pretty clear to me...	zeemike	Jun 2013	#21
K&R! I cannot believe anyone here, ANYONE, would even suggest the suspension	Fire Walk With Me	Jun 2013	#14
Thank you. Very well said.	DisgustipatedinCA	Jun 2013	#16
Things will not be made right unless and until they erase the database.	reformist2	Jun 2013	#15
The 4th Amendment Has Been On Life Support For A Long Time	DallasNE	Jun 2013	#17
Not to mention all of the bullshit searches at the	LibDemAlways	Jun 2013	#23
The government sanctioned feel-ups, even random ones, are outrageous.	AnotherMcIntosh	Jun 2013	#32
Being forced into an x-ray or feel up, with no	LibDemAlways	Jun 2013	#36
And meanwhile, the Saudi family that had supported Mohammed Atta	truedelphi	Jun 2013	#40
Even WORSE when they've PLANTED the joint in your pocket.	Amonester	Jun 2013	#26
K&R	suffragette	Jun 2013	#22
Probable cause is awfully "wobbly"	Scootaloo	Jun 2013	#27
DURec	leftstreet	Jun 2013	#28
Good luck getting n answer to that question. I have asked, but got the run around mostly.	sabrina 1	Jun 2013	#30
And don't you get the feeling that a lot of this is being done	truedelphi	Jun 2013	#41
Absolutely! I said yesterday that we should 'follow the money' to find out why they are keeping	sabrina 1	Jun 2013	#42
Sadly, don't you also get the feeling that we will never get that investigation?	truedelphi	Jun 2013	#43
Well, they may be forced to do something, but I am not stupid enough to think that if they are	sabrina 1	Jun 2013	#44
And Clapper was appointed Director of NSA by.... wait for it....	Melinda	Jun 2013	#72
Case law	Life Long Dem	Jun 2013	#33
What Does "Effects" Mean In The 4th Amendment	DallasNE	Jun 2013	#45
I'd say effects means 'personal property'	Life Long Dem	Jun 2013	#63
What has happened to this country? Where's the outrage from the ABA? Or from other Bar Associations?	AnotherMcIntosh	Jun 2013	#34
You kidding? If anyone can tell which way the wind is blowing, it's attorneys. n/t	Egalitarian Thug	Jun 2013	#39
The Communist Menace has become the Islamist Menace	octoberlib	Jun 2013	#46
Well said - An excellent OP	TakeALeftTurn	Jun 2013	#47
k&r n/t	RainDog	Jun 2013	#49
all I've learned this week is that we should save our rage and aim it at the next Repub president.	piratefish08	Jun 2013	#50
Why not just never elect another Bush, that would be more productive of course.	graham4anything	Jun 2013	#52
I'm not aware of efforts to distance the 4th Amendment from the argument.	joshcryer	Jun 2013	#54
Hmm ...	Laelth	Jun 2013	#55
"we need new guidance from the SCOTUS"? What if the SCOTUS is in the tank on this one?	AnotherMcIntosh	Jun 2013	#60
They may be.	Laelth	Jun 2013	#61
Sooner or later, the general public is going to learn that Justice Kagan was opposed to	AnotherMcIntosh	Jun 2013	#62
Oh, but woo, we're being told that people who live in the "real world"	Zorra	Jun 2013	#59
I find your 4th amendment analysis facile, like 2nd amendment analysis	msanthrope	Jun 2013	#67
It is as though the current folks in Washington	Vinnie From Indy	Jun 2013	#70
Think this is bad? This is the same government that claims the right to KILL Americans...	Demo_Chris	Jun 2013	#71
well...	Locrian	Jun 2013	#73
Not to stir up trouble, but what do we, the little guys, do about this?	WHEN CRABS ROAR	Jun 2013	#76
I think many people around here never took civics,	felix_numinous	Jun 2013	#78
K & R !!!	WillyT	Jun 2013	#81
"On what probable cause does the US government have the right...?"	Spitfire of ATJ	Jun 2013	#84
Ah, memories!	backscatter712	Jun 2013	#85
Am I missing something or is this generational?	sevenseas	Jun 2013	#86
I have it on good authority that a lot of that fear in the fifties	WHEN CRABS ROAR	Jun 2013	#87
Don't trust the apologists/cheerleaders/sock puppets.	blkmusclmachine	Jun 2013	#91
What this guy said. ^	bvar22	Jun 2013	#95
Big brother probably has probable cause to believe if billions of communications are harvested and	indepat	Jun 2013	#97
I was pissed when W started this shit...now obama continues it...im terrified....	CarrieLynne	Jun 2013	#98
We are being manipulated to disregard the CONSTITUTION. I'm stunned and ashamed at some reactions.	chimpymustgo	Jun 2013	#99
FIGHT THIS	Canuckistanian	Jun 2013	#100
Thank you. K&R nt	TBF	Jun 2013	#102
Now this is a balanced response.	kitt6	Jun 2013	#103

Response to woo me with science (Original post)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 10:17 PM

Gregorian (23,867 posts)

1. They're trying to find probable cause. And that crosses a line.

It's one thing to see what looks like a drunk driver, and then pull them over. But to sit in our dining rooms and watch what we're doing, in order to find out if we've been drinking before we drive is to cross a line that divides countries like America from those with fascist regimes.

We are being manipulated to miss the point.

1. They're trying to find probable cause. And that crosses a line.

65. How else will they

69. Exactly, this has nothing to do with "terrorism", and all to do with the new corporate police-state.

77. They control protest & real descent by...

79. Keep telling yourself that.

80. Please prove me wrong?!?!

82. What do you think happened to

92. First of all, even if the local authorities are doing worse doesnt justify the NSA doing the same.

94. Ahhh, Local Police Forces do not have those capabilities,

83. Checking your cell phone to see if you've been in a place that serves liquor (nt)

2. Nobody is saying that you broke any laws, what we're saying is...

3. Actually,

5. the debate is about the right of the government to preemptively harvest and store ALL our

25. The date of a court decision isn't much of a factor in US jurisprudence.

31. Here's a link to the full-text opinion of Smith v. Maryland, 1855

56. That description of the precedent established in Smith v. Maryland, 1855

35. 1979 - Smith v. Maryland, 442 U.S. 735 (1979)?

38. But if the American people are smart enough to stand up

53. It's up to the People to object

48. True and that ruling doesn't cover what we are talking about today

51. +1. Smith v. Maryland, 442 U.S. 735 (1979) - No warrant required for call metadata

58. You need to read Smith v Maryland where it doesn't actually say that, or at least # 3 above.

88. 1979. That was long before the government had this massive

89. Look at guns, when the 2nd was written, they were talking about cannons and such.

64. Thanks for illustrating the ops point.

68. Can't help but notice

4. Founding fathers explicitly sanctioned

8. LOL.

13. Founding fathers explicitly outlawed

37. Except that, in your example, they did.

57. WTF?

74. Just tired of right-wing idiocy being thrown out in quantities suitable to yahoo or

101. Got it.

66. Awww, having a bad day, or just want to show everyone what league you really should be in? n/t

75. I'm sorry, did you have a point, or is it just a need to defend wrong? n/t

90. I'm sorry you seem to have misunderstood, I wasn't defending you. n/t

93. When all else fails go to the snark. nm

96. Snark that makes the point is grist for the mill. What would be DU w/o snark...

6. I'll bet Benjamin Frankin is spinning in his grave

19. I think we just solved the world's energy crisis!

7. Apparently some people enjoy taking a crap on the Constitution.

9. Probably cause PARTICULARLY DESCRIBING the things to be seized.

10. sorry Woo...it's all ok cuz the courts have said it's "legal" according to them only nt

20. The courts said slavery was legal, and black people weren't human beings.

11. There is a question as to whether a person has a right of privacy to a LOG of activities.

12. Well, we do know that we don't own the Internet, so that by not 'owning' it...

18. No, it has not ...

24. Like, if YOU don't want anyone to sneek on what you consider YOUR privacy...

29. "...is pretty easily argued as being the property of the phone company..."

21. Seems pretty clear to me...

14. K&R! I cannot believe anyone here, ANYONE, would even suggest the suspension

16. Thank you. Very well said.

15. Things will not be made right unless and until they erase the database.

17. The 4th Amendment Has Been On Life Support For A Long Time

23. Not to mention all of the bullshit searches at the

32. The government sanctioned feel-ups, even random ones, are outrageous.

36. Being forced into an x-ray or feel up, with no

40. And meanwhile, the Saudi family that had supported Mohammed Atta

26. Even WORSE when they've PLANTED the joint in your pocket.

22. K&R

27. Probable cause is awfully "wobbly"

28. DURec

30. Good luck getting n answer to that question. I have asked, but got the run around mostly.

41. And don't you get the feeling that a lot of this is being done

42. Absolutely! I said yesterday that we should 'follow the money' to find out why they are keeping

43. Sadly, don't you also get the feeling that we will never get that investigation?

44. Well, they may be forced to do something, but I am not stupid enough to think that if they are

72. And Clapper was appointed Director of NSA by.... wait for it....

33. Case law

45. What Does "Effects" Mean In The 4th Amendment

63. I'd say effects means 'personal property'

34. What has happened to this country? Where's the outrage from the ABA? Or from other Bar Associations?

39. You kidding? If anyone can tell which way the wind is blowing, it's attorneys. n/t

46. The Communist Menace has become the Islamist Menace

47. Well said - An excellent OP

49. k&r n/t

50. all I've learned this week is that we should save our rage and aim it at the next Repub president.

52. Why not just never elect another Bush, that would be more productive of course.

54. I'm not aware of efforts to distance the 4th Amendment from the argument.