This message was self-deleted by its author

[darkangel218]

This message was self-deleted by its author (darkangel218) on Sun Jun 16, 2013, 11:37 PM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

[Daniel537]

1. Nonsense. He made a Democrat look bad.

We should rendition his ass to Syria until he breaks, mentally or physically. Tired of all these leakers making our beloved President and the Party look bad. Time to get physical with these bastards.

[darkangel218]

2. I can see your invisible sarcasm tag.

Not sure others can though. :/

[NaturalCommunist]

3. Yup

Time for the 1st and 2nd amendments to be changed. You should not have free speech if it harms US safety or you're doing it as hate speech. Clearly he hates this administration.

[Swede Atlanta]

23. Can we have a serious discussion?

My first honest question to you is how do Snowden's disclosures raise an issue around the 2nd Amendment? The second amendment address the issue of arms, "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

The Supreme Court has consistently held that none of the rights conferred upon the American people in the Bill of Rights are absolute. They are all subject to reasonable regulation and moderation when considered against other rights.

A believe Snowden, whatever his motives, served the long-term best interests of this nation by ensuring the average American has some visibility into what the government is doing to its own people. At the same time I do not believe he can claim his speech is protected by the 1st Amendment. This type of speech would not, given these facts, be protected, in my opinion. There should be general consensus on that even for those people, like myself, who appreciate learning what Big Brother is doing to me and in my name.

The Court is similarly capable of determining when certain types of speech, such as hate speech, is not protected. We may not agree that the Court has held the Phelps' clan have a constitutional right to protest funerals and to spew their hate. At the same time there were very nasty statements made by protestors about President Bush and by the Occupy Movement. If we want to ensure we have the right to express our opinions when we have a strong view we must sometimes accept speech we consider unacceptable. The Court has held when speech is likely to incite violence it is no longer protected.

I would, however, support a way to clarify that money is not speech and that non-natural persons are not afforded any of the rights enumerated in our Constitution. That goes against my general preference to not modify the Constitution but I believe those are significantly important issues.

[railsback]

34. Its sarcasm, like calling Snowden a 'hero'.

[markiv]

4. CBS's Bob Schiefer just denounced Snowden on Face the Nation

propagandist, scumbag brown noser scheifer can go ' ' himself

[mimi85]

41. Bob Schieffer?

Seriously?

[wundermaus]

5. The Powers that be do not tolerate rogue agents -

He will be dead within a year.
Now shut up, sit down, and get back to work or...

[marions ghost]

24. "rogue" agents you mean

I don't think he'll be dead but he might not have an easy time.

"The intelligence community is exempt from Whistleblower Protection Act. Russell Tice spoke to MSNBC about this issue yesterday.

Mr. Tice states in the interview:

“The Whistleblower Protection Act does not apply to the intelligence community. They’re exempt from it. And most people in the intelligence community don’t realize that. So, you can’t even go to the Office of Special Counsel because they’re exempt from that, too, and the merit system protection board. So even if you use the Intelligence Community Whistleblower Protection Act, the only thing that gives you is the right to go to Congress. It doesn’t–it doesn’t have any teeth there to protect you against retribution from the agency that you’re reporting abuse on.”

Watch the interview (it is short):

http://tv.msnbc.com/2013/06/11/the-whistleblower-protection-act-is-not-created-equal/

[wundermaus]

31. Yes... Thank you for the correction.

Even with spell check, operator error occasionally slips through.

[treestar]

58. 1 - why should they

2 - bullshit this is Julian levels of paranoia

3- no, this is nothing like Big Brother. That comparison lets us see how minor it is after all.

[wundermaus]

102. Why? Because evil works in the dark and light just pisses it off.

2. Paranoia? Say that to the ovens of Nazi Germany, the Siberian death camps of Russia, the Killing Fields of Cambodia, and...
Think it can't happen here?
Do you think we are special from the rest of the human race?
We are all in the same big boat.
So, oh, yes, be afraid. Be very afraid.
3. Not Big Brother? News flash - Big Brother OWNS our government.
There is no separation of Government and the elite.
The slaves must be controlled to maintain the flow of wealth to feed the bottomless greed.
Corporatism is the new face of Fascism.
You think one person equals one vote is real?
Another news flash - Dollars = votes.
How many dollars do you spend bribing your government officials?
How much do the elites spend bribing your government officials?
4. This shit has been going on for a looong time.
What's the difference between then and now?
The evil is winning.
Welcome to the new slavery.
Enjoy your chains.
Now get back to work.

[treestar]

106. How can you possible mention such terrible things

as what happened in Cambodia in the same post as some stupid metadata base that private companies have and the even the government has?

[ProSense]

6. Edward Snowden is a coward and a liar.

Opinions differ.

[Cooley Hurd]

7. We can disagree on the veracity of his claims...

...but what makes him a coward?

[baldguy]

18. Um...he's hiding in a foreign country?

[Cooley Hurd]

19. Can you blame him? We've seen how Bradley Manning has been treated...

[baldguy]

21. So being a coward is a plus, now?

Normally, being a cowardly, lying, self-important douchebag, who left his girlfriend high & dry and in the dark about what he was doing - and, incidentally voted against Obama - would not be looked upon in a positive light on DU.

But, for some people all that automatically makes him a hero for some reason.

[Cooley Hurd]

25. Self-preservation is hardly cowardly...

If that's the case, you must be a coward for not stepping into a bonfire. See my point here?

[marions ghost]

26. oh brother

"left his girlfriend high & dry" & OMG "voted against Obama." I'm shocked. What tragic horrible acts. Actually it was right to leave his girlfriend out of it. Smart in fact.

The only thing that matters is whether he's lying, and he has enough support and corroboration that it seems unlikely.

As for "coward"--well that's meaningless. You have to have a lot of courage to do what he's done. Real courage of convictions. Whether you agree with him or not. ya got nuthin

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

66. lot's of brave men and women have sought shelter in other countries throughout history

from the evil intent and persecution of their own governments.

That is not usually considered cowardly, except maybe by the totalitarians who forced them to flee.

[darkangel218]

8. Your shtick is well known.

Go post some more "links" maybe that will sway us away is into lil docile puppets.

[Bobbie Jo]

9. So is yours.

Can't wait to read your next Dear Abby installment.

[darkangel218]

10. Sick post.

I have never posted on "dear Abby" . Take your personal attacks somewhere else.

[ProSense]

12. Wow,

"Take your personal attacks somewhere else."

...clownish hypocrisy.

Schieffer Destroys Snowden: ‘I Don’t Remember Martin Luther King Jr. Or Rosa Parks Hiding In China’http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023027238

[darkangel218]

14. Lol you said you dont post links!

Lmao!!!!!!!!!!!

[ProSense]

17. That's not what I said, but

thanks for adding to the understanding that you're confused.

[darkangel218]

39. Im not confused at all. I dont have an agenda.

You on the other hand do.

[Bobbie Jo]

15. lol

Whooooosh!

Take your personal issues somewhere else.

[darkangel218]

16. Who are you to tell me where to take ",my personal issues"???

Are you a more entitled DUer than me? What makes you think you can order me to take my issues "elswhere"???

[Bobbie Jo]

20. What?

You're posting in circles again.

Try more coffee.

[darkangel218]

65. Circles? why, cuz i dont agree with you? lmao!!!! nt

[zappaman]

95. I don't think coffee will help.

[Kali]

32. beer

it's what's for breakfast

[darkangel218]

53. I work nights, morning is everyone elses evening.

You know that is lame to resort to personal / unwarranted attacks , don't you?

[Kali]

62. You know what is really lame?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=286706&sub=trans

not to mention all the many self deleted embarrassments you have posted since you barged onto this site, especially the dozens of GBCW promises you have yet to to keep.

enjoy your Friday night party, or whatever it is to you today.

[zappaman]

84. +100

[Electric Monk]

98. Upon reading the OP, I just knew she'd have at least one post hidden somewhere down-thread

again....

[FSogol]

100. IBTATAP

In before the "Ask the Administrators" post

[bike man]

107. Here it is again, same subject line

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023028866

[SidDithers]

108. Or the next GBCW...nt

Sid

[ProSense]

11. Why do clowns

"Your shtick is well known."

...need to rely on the "everybody knows" crutch to make clownish statements?

"Go post some more "links" maybe that will sway us away is into lil docile puppets. "

There are no "links" in the comment, which just goes to show how moronic that response is.

[darkangel218]

13. You link pretty much all your other posts.

Copy and paste.
To prove a "point".
Which is this time is wrong.
Or maybe you have no links, because the American people would like to know the truth??

Take your propaganda elsewhere.

[Whisp]

40. you are out of your element, Donny. give it up. n/t

[darkangel218]

44. How do you deem somwone out of their element??

Just cuz they have a diferent opinion than yours? Or is it something else am I missing Whisp?

[Whisp]

47. actually, we are all out of our element here.

We don't know anything much yet and just playing detective here, that's all.

It's interesting, sort of, but that's all it is - guessing games.

To make Snowden a hero or a villain is just a tad premature - but hey, that's what we do here, make uninformed judgements.

[Kali]

70. BWAHAHHA!!

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

72. WTF

is so funny about that?!

[Kali]

78. maybe you haven't been here long enough

though with this one, the PWI events are often enough you probably should have seen it by now, if you were paying attention

the pattern of posting a nutty flamebait OP, spiraling retorts that get more and more incoherent, then a hidden post or two, another GBCW OP followed by numerous self-deletes. Usually returning the next day.

this was one of the best: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022641298

[darkangel218]

79. So what if i self delete?? it means nothing!!

I self delete because I CAN, and because I'm used to chat boards where not everything you say stays in the data base

Btw, you personally attacked me, you will be reported to the adminis.

Good luck.

[Kali]

85. it's not the self-deletes in and of themselves

it is your whole pattern - especially including the other things you didn't address BESIDES the self-deleting.

drunk posting, flame-baiting, incoherent rants, hyper-nationalistic bullshit and flagwaving, personal attacks, hidden posts, GBCW posts, cuckoo clock reemergence shortly after telling us all to fuck off. rinse repeat.

address the whole picture dear. of course self-deletes are allowed, otherwise you WOULD, FINALLY be out of here.

[darkangel218]

88. Incohernt rants/?

Do I have to spell it out for you that I wasn't born here??

Deal with the administrators. That's all I have to tell you.

[Kali]

90. I know plenty of people not born here

including from Russia and "Eastern Europe"

they mostly know how to handle their alcohol, and don't post - yes, INCOHERENT rants - on the internet.

there is a difference between expression in imperfect English and drunk-ranting.

[darkangel218]

91. Im not fucking drunk, nor have i had one single drink when posting this!

Stop personally attacking DUers, it will catch up with you eventually.

[zappaman]

94. +1000!

[sad-cafe]

111. orly?

?

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

71. I strongly disagree, and so do many others much more knowledgable than I but

we all do now know that there is massive harvesting, storing, and analyzing of ALL Americans digital and phone communications, which is enough for anyone to form an opinion on wether or not Snowden revealed was a service or disservice to the American people.

And the DU polls have been consistent this week on showing that the vast majority support Snowden for blowing the whistle.

[Vietnameravet]

28. He deserves jail

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

63. To totalitarians, maybe... to most DUers he's a Patriot

who has our thanks, and admiration for his bravery in standing up for US and shining a light on the wrong doing of our government against it's own citizens.

[Ter]

99. Why, because he exposed your idol as a constitution shredder?

Al Gore seems to think he was right to expose illegal activities.

[cali]

22. Sorry, I think that's to be determined.

and your op is ill thought out- to be kind about it.

[darkangel218]

37. Whatever lol

[bike man]

45. It will go into the 'self deleted' file, with so many others. nt

[cantbeserious]

27. He Did All Of Us A Big Favor In Bringing This Surveillance Travesty To Our Collective Attention

eom

[Vietnameravet]

29. And what if his leaks lead to a successful terrorist attack?

[cantbeserious]

30. The Point Has Been Made By Experts That The Only People That Did Not Know Was American Citizens

eom

[penndragon69]

35. If you are soo stupid that you

don't know that our govt. SPIES and other countries, then you
are truly ignorant.

[cantbeserious]

38. Ad Hominen Attack - Against The DU TOS

eom

[Whisp]

42. been around since forever.

[penndragon69]

33. Revealing HOW or govt. gathers information

on other country's is an act of TREASON. Now he is hiding under
the protection of a COMMUNIST country waiting to see who the highest
bidder for all his classified information will be.

He was probably recruited to be a spy by China back during the bush Regime.

Thank you G.W.bush and your FASCIST police state.

[railsback]

36. No. Snowden is a 'hero'.

And you hate our Constitution because you're nothing but a White House crony.

Of course, I'm embellishing with lots of sarcasm.

[MjolnirTime]

43. He's a criminal. I doubt you keep up the worship once China has had their way with him.

You're right, you don't understand this at all.

[darkangel218]

46. Lmao!!! china has not had not they wlll have " their way with him"

He fled there because he wants to live. Perhepd wasn't the best choice, but we all know what happens with whistle blowers hers.

So honestly, it doesn't bother you at all that the gov is recording evrything you ever say on the phone or online??
You must be one special person.

[MjolnirTime]

50. type more slowly.

You are ignorant of the facts.
They do not have access to everything you say unless they are granted access by FISA.

Half-truths help noone.
Make sure you understand what is really going on before screaming about a falling sky.

[darkangel218]

61. Lol.

You know "history is deemed to ne repeated"

It sucks that it has to be repeated here, in this amazing country.
None of you see through this. Until it will be too late.
Just like in East Europe.

[kentuck]

49. Its a complex case. It is not black or white. You are dealing with spies.

It's much like a farmer that had worked hard all summer and stored up his barn with corn. It was stuffed to the corners with corn.

But, there were people that were hungry and one of the brave men went into the barn in the middle of the night and took some of it so his people would not be hungry. It saved the lives of some of the children that were starving.

But the farmer reported him to authorities. He had noticed that a good amount of his corn was missing. The man came forward in his newspaper and said that he took the corn. But he felt he did nothing wrong so he was not going to turn himself in.

But he was a thief. It is against the law to steal another person's property. But, he said, he did it for the people. So, was he a thief, or a hero, or both, depending on your perspective??

[HardTimes99]

81. This easily deserves to be its own OP. Simply brilliant and

Last edited Sun Jun 16, 2013, 02:56 PM - Edit history (1)

reminiscent of other parables from our collective past (if not Jesus', then certainly Lincoln's).

My sincerest compliments!

[kentuck]

87. You are too kind.

[HardTimes99]

96. I happen to love teaching by parable and historical analogue, because

doing so engages the audience's empathy and sympathetic imaginations in forcing them to step outside their own egos to consider questions of great import.

I read your parable to my wife and she made the quite-relevant observation that the corn in this case is the village's. (Democratic Socialist household here ) Which adds further grist to the mill (npi) about whether the thief in this case is a thief of corn that belonged to the village all along.

Still and all, your response is so mutedly eloquent and elegant that it deserves great exposure.

[kentuck]

101. I agree with your wife.

The secrets do not belong to the government alone. They are only guardians. They do not have the legal right to punish anyone for taking what belongs to the people in the first place. The people are the rightful owner. It could be argued that it is the government that is the guilty party in this case. They did not guard the secrets and rights of the citizens. I appreciate your comments very much.

[VanillaRhapsody]

51. the only people he "told anything" is the Chinese...

[darkangel218]

55. Really? so his intwrviwes with the media didnt exist?????/

OMG!!!

[VanillaRhapsody]

56. But it was JUST talk

he showed them evidence....big difference. THAT forms my opinion of Snowden

[darkangel218]

64. Telling the TRUTH, even though he lost everything and eveeyone he ever known , is "just talk"???

Holy shit , you know how to top yourself!,

[VanillaRhapsody]

69. How do you know he is telling the truth...

did he show documents to YOU and the Chinese?

I on the other hand require proof that he has of HIS claims...

But since he gave them to the Chinese before Greenwald showed them to the rest of us....I think we see where his loyalties lie..

Thats why I hear Greenwald has lawyered up!

[arely staircase]

52. so he decides to help a government demonsterably worse than the ours on its worst day?

some hero.

[intaglio]

54. How to devalue the word "Hero"

He is a whistle blower - except that whistle was blown back in 2007.

It's old news, still relevant but still old. The courts have tested the matter of meta-data and found it legal, just as looking at the envelope of a letter is legal. It is and was down to Congress - not the President - to sort this out and establish a legal framework.

Now ask yourself why this story has suddenly received such prominence.

[darkangel218]

59. Up until Snowden I did not know our first and 4th amedment meant nothing.

Excuse my "ignorance".

[intaglio]

75. This has little to do with the 4th Amendment

Metadata is not private communication, it is information about that communication. In exactly the same way an envelope displays information about the sender, the the addressee, the method of sending, the route (air or surface mail), the size of the contents and sometimes even the contents (fragile, do not bend etc)

Metadata is PUBLIC information and, unless new laws are enacted, you can no more stop the examination of that than you can stop the Post Office looking at an envelope. Additionally any new law will have to allow private companies to examine the meta because that is how the internet and most mobile phone services operate.

What is worse is that you are so fooled by the surface glitter of Snowden's unoriginal whistleblowing and so hypnotised by the M$M coverage that you ignore equally legal but far more intrusive monitoring carried out by other means.

I repeat, Snowden's information originally came out in 2007, got some publicity and then dropped from public awareness precisely because it is a non-issue.

Snowden is not a hero, he is just someone who is either making a quick buck or who is after his 15 minutes of fame. I repeat calling him a "hero" devalues an important word.

[cstanleytech]

76. It goes back even before 2007 to atleast 1997 when Carnivore was implemented so

no Snowden isnt a hero for revealing this about the NSA nor is he imo a traitor for it.
Now revealing that the government was hacking into computers in China is a different story because if he actually did do that and it wasnt a planted story by China to try and counter the US pushing back on Chinas hacking of US companies and government computers then he might be a traitor for that and only that but thats for a jury to decide.

[intaglio]

77. Agreed, not a hero and not a traitor

Thanks for backdating the revelation even further.

As to the US hacking China, I believe that is just espionage as usual and both sides are indulging.

[cstanleytech]

80. " both sides are indulging." Of course they are however its still legally treason to reveal it if

you are not authorized to do so and I kind of doubt Snowden was granted that kind of authorization assuming of course that paper in China wasnt lying through their teeth about being shown documents by him.

[intaglio]

97. If I was a conspiracy theorist

Which I'm definitely not (now), I would ask myself how would you get Chinese Military Intelligence to accept a load of manure about American infiltration from a dubious source such as Snowden ...

[treestar]

57. Doubling down on that is just too much

You jumped too early, just admit that and move on, rather than trying to sustain this absurd hero worship!

We could always have had a discussion on the security apparatus. The courts have been discussing it for decades. Before FISA, Presidents could do whatever they wanted. FISA at least tries to limit them. We knew that it was there and it was a duly passed law.

This silly metadata base is nothing that could not exist with modern technology. Private companies have access to it. It is not the big drama that people are making of it. It's not some person who was spied on with no cause other than political persecution.

[darkangel218]

60. I lived in socialist/dictatorialship east europe

Tell someone else who buys your BS that this is "nothing".

[treestar]

67. Then give us some details

I don't like the way you say you lived there and that alone means we who did not live in such a place must agree with you in lock step. That would be sheep-like following of you wouldn't it? Explain what it was like in detail. I would imagine the government there was not restricted by a 4th Amendment, or a FISA type of law, and thus could go straight into eavesdropping and no one could even discuss it having a database. And had Snowden lived there, he would not have been able to flee and thus would not have bothered with revealing the government had a database, everyone would have known the government didn't even need one to get to your phones and any heroism on his part would have lead to his immediate imprisonment or death.

I don't think you can prove you lived in such a place on the internet, but if you really did you would be quite happy to be living in the United States and to be able to discuss this publicly.

[treestar]

104. We have a bill of rights

and that's why we don't have the problems you describe.

[treestar]

105. I went to do a workout

Interesting that you are authoritarian enough to determine how long I have to respond to posts.

[JoeyT]

68. K&R

If for no other reason than seeing that title on the greatest page will send some people into fits.

[Thinkingabout]

74. Kick this Zero to the curb and get a hero

[HangOnKids]

103. Good Comedy

Don't quit your day job.

[Beacool]

82. I don't view him as a hero.

Furthermore, he acted like a weasel by fleeing the country. To top it all, he runs to a Chinese dominion.

[demosincebirth]

83. That's not my definition of a hero. More like a self serving human being who doesn't think much of

how many people he may have put in danger. Of course he doesn't care as long as he stays in the limelight.

[zappaman]

86. Nope.

Not even close.

[darkangel218]

89. Yes, very CLOSE.

[SidDithers]

109. No...nt

Sid

[PennsylvaniaMatt]

110. No....he's not

Having an issue with the way things are conducted in the government is one thing, but leaking such sensitive information, and then fleeing to another country does NOT make him a hero...Plain and simple.

As Bob Schieffer said this morning, REAL heroes are people like Martin Luther King Jr. and Rosa Parks, who stood up when they saw injustices, but did so in a way where they didn't cower when faced with consequences....Not people like Snowden who ran away and is in hiding like he is some teenager that just robbed a gas station.

[bluestate10]

112. Thee guy appears to have fabricated many aspects of his job and access level.

My experience with people that fabricated anything is that they can't ultimately be trusted. Snowden seems to be a self-serving liar.