Bravo, Mr. Snowden !!!

[WillyT]

Snowden said Monday, "Being called a traitor by Dick Cheney is the highest honor you can give an American," slamming Cheney for the Bush administration's warrantless wiretapping and for "deceitfully engineering" the Iraq war.

Snowden said he decided to leak the information after witnessing "a continuing litany of lies from senior officials to Congress - and therefore the American people." He specifically cited Director of National Intelligence James Clapper's March congressional testimony, in which Clapper said unequivocally that the NSA does not collect data on American communications. The White House has defended Clapper's testimony, even though it's proven to be false and Clapper himself said he gave "the most truthful, or least untruthful manner" answer possible.

"Seeing someone in the position of James Clapper - the Director of National Intelligence - baldly lying to the public without repercussion is the evidence of a subverted democracy," Snowden said. "The consent of the governed is not consent if it is not informed."

From: http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-250_162-57589622/snowden-u.s-govt-destroyed-my-chance-for-fair-trial/

[xchrom]

1. Du rec. Nt

[reformist2]

2. That, my friends, is the quote of the year!

[Eddie Haskell]

95. That is a great quote

Is it his?

[Life Long Dem]

3. Instead of attacking Clapper

How about Congress finds out whats going on themselves? Clapper may have not knowingly lied. So why not find out and get some clarity from Clapper instead of continuing the attack, like it's an ace in the hole that you want to keep only for an attack.

[PDittie]

6. I really don't think that

Clapper is the one being "attacked".

[iemitsu]

124. And Clapper deserves to be attacked

as he is the director of the NSA and he lied to congress.
Too suggest that the director didn't know what was going on is ridiculous. He ought to be fired for lying to congress. That is an impeachable offense.

[bvar22]

7. Watch this clip,

....then come back and tell us that Clapper didn't knowingly LIE.

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-june-10-2013/good-news--you-re-not-paranoid---nsa-oversight

[Life Long Dem]

8. Clapper didn't knowingly lie

[bvar22]

12. Lets see...the clip is 4 minutes and 5 secs long.

I posted it at 3:06PM,
and you composed, posted, and edited your reply by 3:08PM.

Others can draw their own conclusions,
but as far as I'm concerned, you can join General Clapper in the Crapper.

[Life Long Dem]

13. I'm not going through this again.

It's Clapper's word of "collection" that is misunderstood.

[bvar22]

15. Then my advice to you is don't ever play poker or buy a used car,

because you are as bad at reading people as Clapper is at LYING.

[Life Long Dem]

22. Read this

Did National Director of Intelligence James Clapper commit perjury when he testified before the Senate in March? The answer to this question isn’t as straightforward as it appears to be. As a practical matter, however, it’s the wrong question to be asking about Clapper’s behavior.

Clapper was asked by Sen. Ron Wyden, “Does the NSA collect any type of data at all on millions or hundreds of millions of Americans?” Clapper responded, “No, sir … not wittingly.”

Now this is what an ordinary person would call a “lie.” Ordinary people also believe that perjury is lying under oath. But lawyers are not ordinary people, and, as a technical legal matter, the situation is more complicated.

If the question of whether Clapper committed perjury is understood to mean, “Would the government (if it were inclined to prosecute Clapper, which it won’t) be able to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Clapper’s response violated the federal perjury statutes?” the answer is, “Maybe, maybe not.

http://www.salon.com/2013/06/12/how_james_clapper_will_get_away_with_perjury/

Intelligence director Clapper explained it this way Saturday in an interview with NBC's Andrea Mitchell:

"To me, collection of a U.S. person's data would mean taking the books off the shelf, opening it up and reading it," Clapper told Mitchell.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/intel-dir-james-clapper-lie-congress-complicated/story?id=19390786#.UboBxpzNlA0

[bvar22]

28. Did YOU read it?

...because it supports MY position.
I didn't claim that Clapper committed "perjury".
I said he "LIED",
and he did.

[Life Long Dem]

30. And I said not "knowingly".

Which I still say.

[frylock]

40. he fucking admitted to lying when he trotted out the now infamous "least untruthful"remark..

is English a second language for you? do you not understand the meaning of untruthful?

[bobduca]

72. Lifelong

LIFE LONG!!!

[Life Long Dem]

80. Taken

Last edited Mon Jun 17, 2013, 09:25 PM - Edit history (2)

DU users

lifelong Democrat
Lifelong Protester
LifelongD
LifelongDem
lifelong_Dem

So I misspelled it. I think Lifelong Dem was taken too.

And more

life long demo
Life Long Liberal
Life Long Southerner
life_long_dem

[Life Long Dem]

33. And

...a witness commits perjury if he knowingly makes a false material statement

Clapper has already deployed what could be called the “it depends on what the meaning of ‘collect’ is” defense.

http://www.salon.com/2013/06/12/how_james_clapper_will_get_away_with_perjury/

[bvar22]

42. And Bill Clinton LIED also.

He DID have sex with that woman.
He escaped Perjury charges on a technicality.
That doesn't mean he didn't LIE!

Nobody here is confusing LYING with "Perjury",
yet you are knowingly attempting to conflate the two,
which is ALSO a LIE.

Hey Clapper, is that YOU?

[reusrename]

75. actually, he never said that

He said that he never had intercourse (sexual relations) with her. I've got old dictionaries, published before 1990, that define "sexual relations" as coitus. It was a very specific legal term back in the days before DNA was used to determine paternity.

I think the other one is the quote you are looking for "depends on what the meaning of the word is is."

[reusrename]

76. That argument makes no sense.

To believe his argument you have to believe he is unaware that a library is a collection of books.

You have to believe that he thinks the books in the library don't become a collection until someone decides to read one of them.

Do you think he is being sincere with this stuff? Honestly, just between you and me, do you actually believe this argument?

[Life Long Dem]

77. I think he has a careless attitude,

A library is a collection of books, that you collect when you take a book off the shelf. I don't know how sincere Clapper is over this. But I believe there is a misunderstanding in the word "collection".

[reusrename]

81. Thanks for responding, and I agree.

As for the legality of what he's done, I have a disagreement with what is claimed in the Salon article. Because he is a public official he doesn't really need to reach the perjury threshold for his testimony to be a crime under 18 U.S.C. § 1001. There does not appear to be any materiality requirement like there is for perjury.

whoever, in any matter within the jurisdiction of the executive, legislative, or judicial branch of the Government of the United States, knowingly and willfully ... makes any materially false, fictitious, or fraudulent statement or representation ... shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 5 years or, if the offense involves international or domestic terrorism (as defined in section 2331), imprisoned not more than 8 years, or both.

http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/uscode/18/I/47/1001

Note the enhanced penalty when dealing with national security.

I would not be comfortable if I were him. Politics will be controlling here, which is probably good for him. There are so many open crimes, even war crimes, that are not being prosecuted, I would think he is pretty far down on the list.

[Life Long Dem]

82. The keyword is "knowingly"

This is because, to secure a perjury conviction, the government must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the witness knew his statement was false. No doubt relying on the advice of counsel, Clapper has already deployed what could be called the “it depends on what the meaning of ‘collect’ is” defense.

http://www.salon.com/2013/06/12/how_james_clapper_will_get_away_with_perjury/

[reusrename]

86. Yep, that's the key.

As thorough as the article is, they did not really discuss the materiality issue. I wanted to show that there are special laws that govern the testimony of administration officials. They are held to a higher standard than what the Salon article would have you believe.

[bobduca]

83. the fig leaf such as it is

intentional misunderstanding isn't misunderstanding, its willful complicity.

They are trying to hide behind the "automated collection is not collection" lie since it's only a "collection of books when you first check the book out."

To strain the analogy to the point of breakage:

If your community bought a library that was built by robots and 3d printers, those books are collections as soon as they are stacked on the shelf, not the very first time a human reads / sees the collection.

[Life Long Dem]

84. But that's the meaning Clapper has

"not the very first time a human reads / sees the collection. "

[bobduca]

85. It seems like a purpose built limited hang-out,though no?

[iemitsu]

125. When you take a book off the library shelf you do it to

read it or dust it or throw it away, you do not take it off the shelf to collect it.
It was already in the collection whether or not you ever put your hands on it.
Clapper is disingenuous to suggest that he uses a different definition than others when saying collection.
If he is that out of touch with our language he has no business holding an important government job.
He is criminal and anyone defending him is suspect.

[Th1onein]

35. "To me, collection of a U.S. person's data would mean taking the books off the shelf....

.....opening it up and reading it," Clapper told Mitchell.

Gee, is that like the definition of the word "is"?

[Life Long Dem]

37. Looks like more than 2 letters

Maybe a big word Clapper.

[Coccydynia]

50. Read this:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/collect

And know that few, if any, understand the word collect as The Clap does.

If we have entered the realm where we can redefine the English language as we see fit, then we really needn't discuss anything, ever again.

[bullsnarfle]

122. Thufferin' thuccotash...

what a crock of weasel-worded crap.

[Dragonfli]

16. You mean his own personal "least untruthful" redefinition?

I thought we knew what collection meant in grammar school, silly me, I forgot there are known knowns and unknown knowns and....

[LondonReign2]

18. So it deoends on what the definition of "is" is?

[Life Long Dem]

29. True

But the word is "collection".

Intelligence director Clapper explained it this way Saturday in an interview with NBC's Andrea Mitchell:

"To me, collection of a U.S. person's data would mean taking the books off the shelf, opening it up and reading it," Clapper told Mitchell.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/intel-dir-james-clapper-lie-congress-complicated/story?id=19390786#.UboBxpzNlA0

That's how he could say no mass data. Everyone knows NSA has 300 million phone numbers including Clapper. I think it's ridiculous thinking Clapper would hide that.

[LondonReign2]

31. Of course he his it

He's simply come up with a different definition of a word to make believe he wasn't lying. Fuck, even he said it was ther "least untruthful" way to say it.

[dkf]

53. Lol...I was thinking the same thing below.

[morningfog]

27. Poor guy doesn't understand the English language.

How did he ever get to such a prominent position.

[dkf]

52. Ah, are we going to debate the meaning of the word "is" now?

[tech3149]

92. Hey Clapper , words have meaning

If I throw a bait bucket out and catch 30 minnows in a minute I have still "collected" 30 minnows. I might not do anything with them but they are still "collected" and anything they try to do is under my inspection and control.
You really have to get a greater perspective of the effect of these sort of policies and procedures. How where, when, and what information you base your opinions upon could and probably will be affected by the ability to communicate freely without the fear of recourse for whatever reason.
I'm not even going to check your profile but I'd bet you're too young to have felt the sting of official targeting because you didn't fall into line with the story of the "powers that be".
There are some really good history lessons out there, you might want to do some research before spouting off in a thread that you know little about.
Are you by chance some paid instigator trying to sell the Washington consensus?

[Life Long Dem]

93. The minnows were sitting in water until collected in the bait bucket

300 million minnows are sitting there in water waiting to be collected. Same as 300 million phone numbers sitting in a file just waiting to be collected.

[Fantastic Anarchist]

118. If they're on a government server, they've been collected.

QED

[iemitsu]

128. No, they have been collected and put into the file.

Before they are collected they are free and unaccounted for.
You sound foolish repeating/insisting that collection means examination.

[ReRe]

104. Duzy ;-)

[Enthusiast]

108. LMAO!

[URL=.html][IMG][/IMG][/URL]

[Fantastic Anarchist]

117. He/She didn't watch it or ...

He/she can manipulate space-time.

[rhett o rick]

10. Clapper is a Boosh Republican. Need I say more? nm

[Life Long Dem]

11. Oh... so off with his head

[rhett o rick]

23. Good response. If I wanted REpublicans in charge of national security I would have voted for

a Republican. I voted for a Democrat that has given us the same Republicans that Boosh used. That's not change.

And when Ms. Clinton or Mr. Christie get elected in 2016 they will use the same damned Republicans.

How do we get out from under Republican rule?

[Enthusiast]

109. That is the big question.

It doesn't look doable.

[Phlem]

41. ...

-p

[burnodo]

61. oh, so, you like Republicans now?

I'm sure your friends have jotted your name down as a possible Rand Paul supporter or Rove troll.

[Life Long Dem]

64. Do you always put words in someones mouth?

The Ron Paul supporter is Snowden.

[burnodo]

66. Why do you trust that Clapper didn't lie?

Seriously! If Clapper had given the same testimony during the Bush administration, would you be so quick to defend him? Or, are you defending him because Barack Obama told you to?

[Life Long Dem]

67. Yes, if I thought he didn't knowingly lie.

What does this have to do with Obama? The President wants a debate. He said so himself. And that's what we're doing. Who said anything about trust? Clapper may be confused, but that doesn't mean I have trust in him.

[burnodo]

69. The White House supported Clapper's testimony.

In effect they said "We believe that Clapper is not lying" He was lying. That's what this has to do with Barack Obama.

[Life Long Dem]

70. I didn't notice

[sibelian]

115. Well, you did.

Didn't you?

[sibelian]

114. Bad play.

Address what is stated.

[sabrina 1]

19. Clapper is a former CEO of Booz Allen, a multi-billion dollar Security Corporation and most likely

he will walk back through this revolving door between Multi Billion Dollar Corporations and Powerful Government Positions after he has done his job of making sure they keep influencing Congress to spend our tax dollars on what they portray as 'Security'.

Clapper is EVERYTHING that is wrong about our government. He is not the ONLY military/security employee with what could be a huge conflict of interest to get appointed to a strategic position in our government relative to the Business he profits from. But he IS one of them.

He lied to Congress. He has a potential huge conflict of interest to keep the contracts flowing to the business he profits from.

What Congress should be doing is to stop funding these Corporations and passing some kind of legislation that prevents CEOS of Corps from walking straight from those Corps into Powerful, Government positions.

[rhett o rick]

24. He lied to Congress because he is more powerful than they. He is so powerful, I wonder if

Pres Obama actually wanted him or was told to appoint him. The Pres keeps appointing the same people that were in charge when Boosh was president. Appears to me they hold more power than the president. Beginning to look like our president is a figurehead like the Queen of England.

[mimi85]

99. Are we going to start

with conspiracy theories now? What a crock!

[rhett o rick]

100. Conspiracy theories really hit hard with authoritarians that want you to ignore problems

and "sit down and shut up."

[rhett o rick]

120. You honestly believe the spy agencies dont "conspire"? They have an unlimited budget and poor

oversight, and their job is to conspire.

[Life Long Dem]

38. I don't need to like Clapper or like his political views to believe Clapper didn't knowingly lie.

We all know NSA has 300 million phone numbers sitting in a file anyway.

Congress needs to find out whats going on. The media is focused on Syria, and half of Congress misses the classified briefing. And Snowden brings up Clapper like that's the evidence he has of wrong doing.

[sabrina 1]

44. Clapper is the current Director of Intel. Who should Snowden have referred to when speaking

about testimony given to Congress by the current Director of Intel? Clapper lied. Either he knowingly lied or he's incompetent, take your pick. Either way it is expremely disturbing that these are the people we are supposed to trust with our Constitutional Rights.

[MADem]

54. I agree. I also think the best possible answer to that question would have been

"I would like to reply to you, in full and in depth, in closed session, please."

Just because classified material has been leaked doesn't obviate the classification of the material.

[Life Long Dem]

55. Yeah, I don't think it was smart to answer the yes or no question

[rhett o rick]

119. I doubt you'd feel the same way about Clapper and Mueller if we had a Republican president.

The question is whether the intelligence services are spying on American citizens without specific probable cause. Some want badly to believe they arent. I think it's faith. Others arent sure and want to investigate further and hold off on the punishment of Snowden until we get the facts. And some believe that the spy agencies will push the line as far as they can without much oversight and with an unlimited budget and are most likely spying on us.

This doesnt make sense to me: "I don't need to like Clapper or like his political views to believe Clapper didn't knowingly lie." His political views are Republican which means he believes the ends justify the means. It means he will lie if he thinks you can't handle the truth. How can you forget the lies the REpublicans told us during the Bush admin. The same players are still in the same jobs.

[JEB]

103. Once again it's about the money.

Spying and wars for profit, the New American Century.

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

45. the BOSS, let's go attack someone else, eh?

how about BOTH?

I think we have the man power to do that, don't you?

[Life Long Dem]

49. Since we already know 300 million phone numbers are in a file Clapper is old history.

[burnodo]

63. "How about Congress finds out whats going on themselves?"

HAHAHAHAHAA. Oh, I'm sorry. Were you joking?

[Life Long Dem]

78. I think I'd have to be joking judging by Congress...

and their lack of interest. More than half didn't show up for a classified briefing. Nadler has no idea what is going on with his backtracking and Sanchez is startled because she has no idea what is going on. Yeah I think I'm joking.

[baldguy]

4. The enemy of our enemy is not necessarily our friend.

[bvar22]

5. BAM!!!

Thank You, Mr Snowden.


Before this weekend, I didn't really think about Ed Snowden.
He was just the IT guy that Blew the Whistle.
The focus was on the US Government and the building of the Security/Surveillance State

But after watching the Smear machine swing into high gear,
and then Bob Schieffer comparing him the MLK and Rosa Parks,
and the concerted efforts of the Conservatives to desperately tag him as a "coward",
I'm thinking that maybe there is something about this guy.

Those who so desperately sought to marginalize him last week
have, instead, elevated him to the status of HERO comparing him to MLK and Rosa Parks.

There is a new story emerging.
The NEW Story is the failed attempts by the Government and those protecting the Status Quo to marginalize Snowden.

[rhett o rick]

17. What is apparent from the post here in DU is that the lines are being drawn. Those that have

consistently denigrated the Left are siding with Clapper and Mueller, two Bush Republicans against Democrats like Rep Grayson. These people clearly are DINO. When Chris Christie changes to a Democrat, they would fall all over themselves to support him.

And when Pres Obama pardons Cheney, they will give their approval.

[Catherina]

21. [phone] n/t

[WillyT]

32. + 1,000,000,000 What You Said !!!

[LuvNewcastle]

39. I see a lot of desperation in their posts.

They aren't even concerned with Snowden's accusations about spying and secrecy. All they care about is what will happen to Obama. They don't want change; they never did.

[MADem]

56. Wow. What a nasty post!!! What broad brushed smears! You should be embarrassed.

Let's use YOUR logic and your "guilt by association" technique to figure out where you stand on this matter:

Ron and Rand Paul, Glenn Beck and the Fox and Friends team .... young people and the Tea Party (per a recent Pew poll) ... Bob Barr, resurrected and running for office again .... they're with you and the Snowden enthusiasts....

So what does that make you? Using your criteria and dividing lines, of course?

The truth of the matter is that this Snowden thing isn't breaking along convenient party lines. For you to suggest that it is, and to denigrate people as "DINOs" because they don't see things your way, is as stupid as someone calling you a "youthful Teabagger" because many young people and most Teabaggers side with Snowden.

[rhett o rick]

58. Clapper and Mueller worked for Cheney. I dont give a damn what Glen Beck says. And the

TeaBaggers are so stupid to recognize that the spying by Clapper is right down their alley.

The TeaBaggers want to disparage Pres Obama at all costs and there are those here that want to defend everything Pres Obama does. Neither group are operating with open minds.

[MADem]

60. Well, the Teabaggers ARE siding with SNOWDEN.

If the teabaggers are so stupid, could it be they're demonstrating it by backing the wrong horse, eh?

There are plenty of Obama critics here who are delighted at Snowden's tweaking of Obama's nose with his claims. What does that make them?

I think we need facts, and Snowden hasn't provided many. He's made charges and assertions, and some of his claims (particularly about his "power" as an analyst) do seem pretty ... well .... dumb. The day he can listen in on Obama with the push of a button at his Hawaii desk is the day I take off in my space suit for the ISS (I am an astronaut, I tell people that all the time....of course, my saying so doesn't make that claim true, either).

I think he needs to speak, unfettered, not through third parties, not in dribs and drabs, and in plain language, not ambiguous commentary where words change meaning. I think, in the interests of transparency, he also needs to let people know who is paying his bills and supporting him at his Hong Kong safe house--I think that's a big piece of the whole "cui bono" question.

[burnodo]

65. Rand Paul and Glenn Beck and somebody else...

I'M BETTER THAN YOU ARE!! I AM SUPERIOR!

[Billy Pilgrim]

134. When my partisan ideology is threatened,

I side with the ACLU.

[MADem]

135. How nice for you.

You missed the point entirely, but never mind.

It helps to read contextually.

[Billy Pilgrim]

137. I thought it was quite to the point.

The ACLU sides with Snowden and the youthful baggers.

[Fantastic Anarchist]

127. Excellent point!

[byeya]

20. Yes, the all-out effort to turn the affair into a tag team smear match got me convinced

that something really upsetting to the scummy-one% was what I was witnessing.
Seeing the stooges and lackies of the status quo posting their rehearsed nonsense was corroboration.

[Plucketeer]

43. I worked for military-industrial contractors thru the 80s

On three sperate occasions, I put on my whistleblower cap and reported incidents of aircrew endangerment and disgustingly wanton waste. In only one incidnet - one where the deliberate looking the other way on adherence to aircraft assembly specifications - was any real rectification pursued (by the USAF). But in ALL THREE occurrances, I eventually caught hell for being a troublemaker. After experiences like that, you start to think before you pick up that big whistle.

[99Forever]

9. **SNAP**

Sweet.

[Triana]

14. "The consent of the governed is not consent if it is not informed."

Damn right about that. I don't deem this guy a hero but that sentence was damn well-said (along with his slamming of Tricky Dick II). Credit where it's due.

[tomg]

34. That is such a superb and succinct statement.

Quite honestly, that interview is quite remarkable. He, too, seems quite remarkable.

[HardTimes99]

25. Nothing like being schooled by our children (first Manning, now Snowden) about

Civics 101:

"The consent of the governed is not consent if it is not informed."

Such plain-spoken eloquence. Even the typical Fox News viewer can comprehend it.

[mzmolly]

26. What has Snowden revealed that we did already not know about the Patriot Act?

[SoapBox]

48. Ditto!

...and he reminded all the TERRORISTS in the world that hate America and Americans, to be
sure to cover their tracks, using the net and cells, well.

Thanks a lot Traitor, new Chinese citizen, Snowden.

...idiot.

[reusrename]

89. see # 88 below n/t

[reusrename]

88. The bit about individual analysts having authority to listen in or read mail.

The main revelation of his coming forward seems to be the bit about analysts being able to access and read individual emails or listen in on individual phone conversations. Everyone seems to be agreeing to the following facts, which were unclear before the Snowden revelations:

Yes, they do need a separate warrant.

Yes. the analyst can access the phone calls/emails on his own without first getting a warrant.

The FISA law allows 72 hours after the fact to seek the warrant.

The truth is, the analyst has access, on his own, once he has been verbally authorized by either the Attorney General or the Director of National Intelligence.

That is the law, AFAICT.

[bvar22]

98. Last year, the NSA requested secret warrants from FISA 1,987 times.

the Secret FISA Court granted EVERY SINGLE REQUEST.
Doesn't that bother you in the least?

In only ONE of these warrants,
the Secret FISA Court authorized the NSA to seize personal data on MILLIONS of Verizon customers without "describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized".
Doesn't that bother you in the least?

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Do you know what THIS ^ is?
After all that has been revealed this week,
doesn't reading the above bother you the least little bit?

Judging from the depth and viciousness of the attacks on Snowden,
I am more inclined to believe that this "is just the tip of the iceberg."

[reusrename]

105. It terrifies me. I was simply trying to explain what Snowden has uncovered.

And it isn't simply a Fourth Amendment issue, IMHO.

The effect this has on our First Amendment right to peaceably assemble has ramifications that are much, much more dangerous.

[bvar22]

129. My bad.

I actually posted to the wrong user,
but this thread is already so mixed up that it doesn't make much difference.

Your response to the propaganda Talking Point What did we learn? was right on the money.

[reusrename]

130. I've done the same thing myself, several times during this discusion.

I open too many tabs in my browser and I argue with too many people I disagree with.

I seem to have overlooked the most important push-back against that particular propaganda talking point:

He published a FISA warrant!

[mzmolly]

133. Any data from the past ten years?

[mzmolly]

102. Warrantless wiretapping?

Not so new - sadly.

[reusrename]

107. Sure, ok.

It was probably known that they were doing it. I certainly didn't understand the legal rationale behind the policy, or for that matter what the actual policy is. I still don't understand the policy all that well. I do know that you are not going to stop any terrorists by listening to phone calls. That idea is just silly.

[mzmolly]

132. I don't get it, either.

And, I don't agree with it.

[JDPriestly]

36. "Truth is coming, and it cannot be stopped."

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-250_162-57589622/snowden-u.s-govt-destroyed-my-chance-for-fair-trial/?pageNum=2

That is quite a quote.

[Lady Freedom Returns]

46. I think Dick Cheney is right on this one.

After all, they say "it takes one to know one".

[warrprayer]

51. Cheney

is not right about anything.

[Lady Freedom Returns]

57. In this case he is. Snowden is no hero, no whisleblower.

Snowden is a Traitor. He has used the disguise of being a whistleblower to get out of the country with information. He went to the enemy.

[warrprayer]

59. the enemy?

when did we declare war on China? Wal Mart is going to be really bummed when they find out!

[Lady Freedom Returns]

68. Just because we have not declared war does not mean they are not the enemy.

Many think the cold war is over, but not really. It has just taken on a different look. They want as much as they can get on us, just like we want as much as we can get on them.

[warrprayer]

71. we think alike

now, if we could only get the NSA to focus on getting as much as they can from THEM instead of from US

[Enthusiast]

111. We are so nice to our enemies. We gave them all our jobs.

[URL=.html][IMG][/IMG][/URL]

[marions ghost]

73. the enemy?

China & America are bedfellows. And our governments think alike.

[Art_from_Ark]

79. More and more, I am reminded of the last line of "Animal Farm"

"The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which."

[fujiyama]

96. Good post

I was thinking of the other Orwell line: "We've always been at war with Eastasia"

[burnodo]

62. is that the war criminal who wasn't prosecuted

because Barack Obama said "Hey, let's all be friends now. Bygones!!"

[bobduca]

91. hey you either TRUST him or you just trust him.

[Trailrider1951]

87. LOL, WTF?

DU has jumped the shark. That is all.

[AzDar]

47. K & R

[Number23]

74. This is the first post you have ever, EVER posted that I've rec'd. But Snowden gets a big assed

high five from me on this.

"Being called a traitor by Dick Cheney is the highest honor you can give an American,"

Good God, I could not agree more.

[Trailrider1951]

90. "Being called a traitor by Dick Cheney is the highest honor you can give an American,"

Yes, I'm surely with you on that one. War is Peace, my friend.........

[fujiyama]

94. Hmmm, I hope it gives DU's authoritarians a little food for thought

Worse yet, I have a feeling we'll see some defending Cheney. This whole incident has been really eye-opening in how complete blind partisanship seems to rot one's ability to think critically.

[Eddie Haskell]

97. That's so true!

[Enthusiast]

112. Several in the above posts are saying exactly that.

That Cheney is right.

Cheney has never been right about anything.

[Harmony Blue]

123. I agree

Cheney has every reason to be against Snowden. He is one of the enablers of this evil apparatus as it came online post 9-11.

[MotherPetrie]

101. K&R

[spanone]

106. k&r...

[DCBob]

113. I thought the messenger didnt matter... just the message.

Just because Cheney is a evil lying bastard doesnt mean Snowden isnt one as well.

[Fantastic Anarchist]

116. Boom, goes the dynamite!

That's a figure of speech, NSA monitors. I'm not intending for dynamite to literally go boom.

[idwiyo]

121. K&R

[still_one]

126. That puts focus and perspective on the issue.

[limpyhobbler]

131. K&R nt

[Zorra]

136. K&R nt