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[BainsBane]

This message was self-deleted by its author (BainsBane) on Mon Jun 17, 2013, 06:36 PM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

[HappyMe]

1. No concealed carry.

[BainsBane]

2. Buzz Click!

Are you going to get in trouble in the gungeon for that?

[quinnox]

3. I live in a city and support concealed carry under limited circumstances

such as, if the person is connected to law enforcement in some way, either federal or state, or the person can demonstrate a need for self protection based on factors such as being stalked, living in a crime-ridden neighborhood, having a job that puts them in shady or dangerous areas, and so on.

[BainsBane]

4. So that would be may issue

so you would have to select no, you do not support shall issue or universal concealed carry. Wikipedia gives the definitions.

[BainsBane]

5. Not only is it may issue, yours is a far more restrictive notion

of may issue than generally applied. You are closer to a no concealed carry position. Your answer is definitely no.

[quinnox]

6. fine, but I don't like the poll options and will leave my answer as pass

because the poll options are too limited for my liking.

[BainsBane]

7. fair enough

I should probably add others.

[BainsBane]

9. You raised an important point

So I added some more options.

[quinnox]

12. thank you

[BainsBane]

8. Wow, those rural areas have suddenly gotten very urban

[hack89]

16. Why is the rural / urban divide so important to you? nt

[BainsBane]

20. because it is at the heart of differences of opinion on gun policy

Despite paranoia to the contrary, I am not in favor of confiscation of guns. And if I am ever fortunate to buy a place near the Boundary Waters Wilderness Area, I would have buy a shotgun to scare off wolves and bears and have for self protection since police are so far away. Guns, however, are far more dangerous in cities where people live in close proximity to each other. That is why many cities don't want concealed carry, and some like Chicago and DC have tried to ban guns entirely. The threat to life is too great.

What city do you live in?

[hack89]

25. Concealed carry is not the issue

the people willing to jump through all the hoops needed to get a CCW are not the ones killing people in the cities. Illegal guns are the problem in places like DC and Chicago. Why not address that problem?

I live on the outskirts of Fall River smack in the middle of the most densely populated urban corridor in America.

[BainsBane]

29. That's not a city

You live in the fucking burbs. People are deliberately skewing the poll. Universal concealed carry means no permit is required.

[hack89]

65. It is not rural

perhaps you should fix your poll. Or are cartoonish black and white views what you are all about?

I have no problem with shall issue CCW with permits. Ensuring all CCW pass background checks should alleviate your concerns. After all we keep hearing how universal checks are desperately needed to save lives

[BainsBane]

68. suburban is not a city

You fear the folks coming in from the city to hurt you. You don't have gunfire in front of your house. This is pure distortion. There is no point of a poll when people lie.

[hack89]

73. I don't own guns due to fear

I live in a very safe town. I own guns because my hobby is competitive target shooting.

Give it a rest - you are trying too hard.

[tammywammy]

77. If you only wanted people to respond if they have "gunfire in front of your house"

Then you should have said that in the OP.

For the record I technically live in a suburb of Dallas & Fort Worth with a population of 374,000. It's an urban area even though there are larger cities near it. And I've never had gunfire in front of my house.

[Lizzie Poppet]

10. Portland, Oregon

I live downtown, support Oregon's successful "shall issue" CCW law, and am a permit holder myself. I do NOT support permitless systems (which I believe only Vermont has).

[BainsBane]

13. Thank you for providing that info

I hear Portland is a beautiful city.

AK, AZ, VT, and WY (for WY residents only) are all universal concealed carry states, meaning no permit is required.

[Lizzie Poppet]

14. Likewise!

I didn't realize permitless CCW carry was allowed in any state other than Vermont. Thanks for the information! I actually visit Arizona regularly (my folks live there...), so that's something I should be aware of.

My personal preference for CCW issuance would be to require not only the background check and classroom instruction must states require, but also a competency test at the range (and the test shouldn't be a "gimme&quot .

[BainsBane]

22. Sounds quite reasonable to me

[premium]

15. Well, I don't live in a city, nor even a town,

the closest city to me would be Las Vegas, appox. 4 hours away, I do live outside of the town of Tonopah.

Disclaimer: I don't have a CHL per se, my USFS ID acts as a CHL, but I haven't carried since I retired.

[BainsBane]

21. That makes all the difference in the world

If I lived where you did, I'd have a gun too. I wouldn't feel a need to take it to the grocery store with me, but I'd keep a shotgun on hand.

[premium]

23. I don't even carry it when I go into town,

don't really see any reason to, everyone knows everyone else, even though my USFS ID is technically a Federal CHL.

My gun hasn't even been out of the gun safe for years except to clean it now and then.

[BainsBane]

26. See, I have no problem with that

What bothers me is guns out and about engaged in shootouts in front of my house, as happened within the last month. Thankfully, they missed their target, but they did do a great deal of damage to my car and that of three of my neighbors. Luckily, none of the bullets went through anyone's bedroom window.

[premium]

33. I fully support CC,

what I don't support is permitless CC, anyone who wants a CHL should have to have an extensive background check, classroom training on laws of self defense, conflict resolution without use of deadly force, range time on the weapon of carry with a stringent qualification and I might even be persuaded to include a mental health screening by a doctor of the applicants choosing.

[BainsBane]

37. If that were the requirement everywhere

I wouldn't be so concerned. It is not.

[premium]

51. Unfortunately, it is not. nt.

[GreenStormCloud]

43. You are missing your target.

Your concern is valid, but you are accusing the wrong people. The people who engaged in that shoot-out were almost certainly not CCW holders. CCW holders have been proven to be far more law-abiding that the general population. Texas Department of Public Safety keeps and annually reports on conviction statistics for their Concealed Handgun License holders. Check out the stats here: http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/rsd/chl/reports/convrates.htm

[BainsBane]

52. I have no idea who they were and neither do you

They weren't caught.

[X_Digger]

17. I live in Fort Worth and support 'shall issue' concealed carry. n/t

[One_Life_To_Give]

18. More Complicated

May issue in this area prevents the Police from getting a CC for off duty. But if you are buddies with the right person well then things r different. I don't see where everyone walking down the street needs to be packing. I don't see where we can't set reasonable requirements for the few that might have a need.

[Shrek]

19. Wichita, Kansas

I support "shall issue" concealed carry.

[petronius]

24. I currently live in smallish city (pop ~ 45k) and I support shall-issue CCW with a

comprehensive training requirement (which would include practical skills, legal issues, and conflict management/avoidance strategy).

This is the same answer I would have given (will give) at the times when I lived (live) in larger cities...

[BainsBane]

27. 45 K is not a city

It's a small town. Come on. Jesus. It's not even a largish small town. The lowest possible population that can be considered a city is 100-150k. My city has half a million residents.

[HappyMe]

28. Well, you did not specify what

you consider a 'city'.

[BainsBane]

30. True, but come on, 45K?

That doesn't pass the laugh test. I anticipated suburbanites claiming they lived in cities but I think think anyone would stretch it that far.

[HappyMe]

38. I lived in a small city in WI.

When you drove in the sign said City of Blablah.

Population was 30k. Wasn't really a suburb of anything.

[BainsBane]

40. You would never call that I city, would you?

No one believes that's a city. You just called it a small town.

[HappyMe]

57. I don't know.

You should have said MAJOR city in your OP.

Why are you quibbling over tiny details?

[X_Digger]

61. I'm guessing this is Bain's view of the US..

[NutmegYankee]

53. Negative. That can be a city.

I have two local cities near me that are only 30-40k. Your definition is so insane (125K), that even Hartford, the state capital, doesn't meet it.

Sorry, but the world isn't NY or Chicago.

[BainsBane]

66. The lowest possible is 100k

otherwise the term has no meaning. Fuck. You can walk across a hamlet of 30 k. How absurd.

[NutmegYankee]

69. Wrong. You presume that the entire country is organized like Minnesota.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_England_town

In my state, we don't even have county government. Counties only exist for statistical purposes.

[BainsBane]

72. A town isn't a city

No, the entire country isn't like NY, Chicago, and Minneapolis, which is why you don't select the choice for living in a city when you live in Sleepy Hollow. All you have to do is tell the truth.

[NutmegYankee]

74. If I lived in the city of Norwich (40k) or New London (32k), I'd live in a city.

Get over it. You don't get to dictate to me what isn't a city in my state.

[BainsBane]

76. Fine, if people are going to falsify the poll to promote guns

I'm deleting it.

[sarisataka]

31. St Paul

Hi BB, I believe I am just across the river

I support shall issue with the caveat of a training requirement. I like the MN classroom requirements, they are fairly comprehensive on skills and legal issues. I would like to see a tougher practical test. Currently all you have to do is shoot in a general direction to pass; I would like to see a scored system in it's place.

[BainsBane]

34. Let me guess. The West side?

Nothing against it mind you, I used to live there myself. It's a lovely place. Yes, St. Paul is technically a city, but unless you live in Midway or the East side, it isn't very urban, is it?

[sarisataka]

44. Nope, Eastsider

although I love to go to West Side for the food. I should have gone to Johnson but I turned traitor and when to THAT Maplewood school that wears green and plays hockey.

You are right, St Paul is a strange combination of small town and city. I have developed a soft spot for the larger Twin as my wife comes from the Minneapple. We never get into which city is better battles

[BainsBane]

49. You qualify regardless

I've lived in both cities. They vary in their attributes. If you need public services or public transportation, Minneapolis is better. St. Paul is quieter and more residential. Regardless, it's way better than living in the suburbs. When I was unemployed, I lived for four months with my brother in Edina. I had no car and was a virtual prisoner without bus service. I'd sooner shoot myself in the head that move back there.

[sarisataka]

59. The one thing Cities people always agree on...

Edina sucks

Our family is looking at moving soon, likely into 6th District- SO happy Bachmann is quitting Now to just take that seat back Hopefully we can live the rural life while still being close to the Cities.

Be careful in Mpls- sometimes the police are more hazardous than the gangs I am hoping Chief Harteau will fairly handle the Terrence Franklin incident and not just wait for a couple months then drop it.

[BainsBane]

60. Yes, we are distinguished to have one of the worst police forces

in the country. Amazing how a force just across the river can be so different.

[Gravitycollapse]

32. The issue here is that CCW holders are actually the safest gun owners.

I don't know what to do with that information. But it makes the issue of outright bans problematic, to say the least.

[BainsBane]

36. Why? In some states all it means is you've got a gun in your pocket

No permits are required in universal jurisdictions. Will issue depends entirely on the requirements set by the state.

[Gravitycollapse]

41. I consistently bounce back and forth on this subject. And it is never an easy answer.

CCW holders generally have more training than the rest of the population. They are less likely to have an accident and are also less likely to use their firearms in the commission of a crime. I have seen that consistently in information on gun violence. It actually seems to be the case, IIRC, that CCW holders are safer than police officers.

All of this doesn't mean we should have guns, by the way. I live in a city of roughly 250,000 (although I spend much of my time in Phoenix with a much larger population), and I would only support CCW permits with extensive training

[BainsBane]

45. A resident of my state

who is a committed gunner and CC supporter just told me the only requirement is you can aim near the target.

[Gravitycollapse]

48. Of course, obtaining the permit is not difficult at all. You basically fill out some paperwork.

But I think firearm owners who wish to have their CCW, in general and not always, are more responsible gun owners and tend to have more extensive training than other owners.

[BainsBane]

50. BS

Without requirements for training and testing, all it means is they are more frightened.

[Gravitycollapse]

54. I think training and retraining should be compulsory and extensive.

So please do not confuse my position with the gun nuts. I do not believe in shall issue permits either. Although I do not have a good alternative in mind. And I'm not even sure I support the right to ownership. So what I'm saying right now is more a philosophical exercise than anything else 

[BainsBane]

63. Okay, point taken.

[Hoyt]

47. They definitely are not safer than those with the good sense to leave them at home.

The fact is, they are not safer than those who qualify for a permit, but choose not to carry in public. The NRA and gun cultists have fooled you into believing (and spreading) that junk.

Truthfully, anyone who feels the need to stuff a gun or two in their pants before venturing out into our society, might not be as safe as some would like us to blieve.

[Gravitycollapse]

56. Of course, not having a firearm on you means you will not make a mistake with one.

But the issue falls inline with the question of whether or not one is safer both from self harm and harm by another aggressor by not having any firearm at all as compared to carrying a firearm.

The real debate here is whether or not the benefits of carrying a firearm, if there are any at all, outweigh the costs, of which I'm sure there are many.

[bigwillq]

35. I support Shall issue

And I support this in a city, town or farm.

[Hoyt]

39. I think there are a few situations where a person might need a gun for a short period, but

not many.

For instance, if a former spouse is stalking someone and is a threat. However, it would seem that if the "authorities" might allow a gun in such cases, they ought to just arrest the threat.

There are just too many viable alternatives to stuffing a gun down one's pants.

[Logical]

67. You must be shocked the poll is about 50/50. Liberals disappointing you? n-t

[ZombieHorde]

42. I live in Montana. We don't have cities.

People's guns don't bother me too much. I don't care for guns in my home, since I have kids, but if I lived alone, then I would be fine with people bringing their guns into my home.

[BainsBane]

62. Nice to see you're honest about it

Suddenly every little town and suburb in America has been redefined as a city.

[otohara]

64. What About Guns @

at others homes where your kids visit/play?

I hate the damn things, once when my son was at neighbors house, the mom left
and as soon as she left, the kids brought out the guns.
Had I not gone down there and saw through the window - 4 boys oggling guns, I never would
have found out guns were in the home and not locked up.

That was the last time my son visited that house.

[PennsylvaniaMatt]

46. I live in a rural area of Pennsylvania and support Concealed Carry with a permit....

I know a lot of people in my county, Cambria, including many that are Democrats, that are responsible gun owners with concealed carry permits. Fortunately, I live in a borough with local police right down the street, but there are many municipalities in the middle of nowhere that are under state police protection, so if anything happened in that area, it would take a long time for police to respond.

[MrSlayer]

55. I think universal open carry should be the rule.

And concealed carry should be illegal. If you're packing, you should have to show it. No hiding weapons.

[NutmegYankee]

58. I oppose May issue permits because of corruption.

We had several cases here in Conn of local first selectmen denying permits (which are almost shall issue) because of personal grudges or politics.

[BainsBane]

70. NOTE, several pro CC respondents have falsified where they live

We have people living on the outskirts of suburbs and in tiny towns pretending they live in cities. As though we needed more confirmation than gunners are dishonest.

[X_Digger]

71. You mean *after* you edited your OP to fit *your* definition of what constitutes a 'city'?

We can all see your edit history.

*tsk tsk tsk*

[BainsBane]

75. I had to edit to account for dishonesty

And some who live on the OUTSKIRTS of suburbs claimed they live in cities, when the poll said a suburb was not a city from the outset. I never anticipated anyone would be so dishonest as to claim a town of 30k was a city. I assumed a basic level of integrity. Obviously that was and remains a mistake.

[BainsBane]

78. I must delete this poll

Gunners have proved themselves too dishonest to honestly communicate where they live. Suddenly they are calling every suburb and tiny hamlet a city. Evidently they think if there is a human within sight of their house, it's a city.