Ben Franklin on the surveillance scandal

[Ichingcarpenter]

Mr. Obama himself, duly elected President of these United States, scoffed during his first Inaugural Address at the notion that Freedom must ever be traded for Safety, saying, “As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals.” snip................................

We are told these Examinations of our most routine yet personal affairs are of noble purpose; that they will inform the Authorities in the prevention of wanton violence & terror. And yet I must point out a Simple Truth: that employing a fellow American to peer into your privy while you evacuate your bowels secures you neither Safety nor Happiness, it secures you only a Neighbor who knows the manner in which you wipe your arse.


Gentle reader, upon hearing of the current state of affairs, a question may spring to your lips: What does this matter? If you do not plot against your State or Fellow Man, what care you who knows your words & habits? If you frequent The Blue Anchor rather than Old City Tavern, does it matter who sees you come and go, so long as your business is pure? To be sure, such questions are as seductive as the barmaid who wonders whether I would like another ale (I would). But they mislead us (as indeed might that very ale)—for in this Brave New World where all citizens hold, in the palm of our hands, a wondrous device that grants us the Earth-spanning power of a global Post Office, Library & Town Square wherein to satiate our every curiosity & whim in but an instant, it is impossible to deny that we all, every one, may quickly be damned as potential traitors for the company we keep.


snip




For one person to know all other people was a Rarity indeed, given to precious few, though my Grandfather was fond of claiming that the old Lord Chancellor of England, the esteemed Sir Francis Bacon, was so Well-Met that no subject of the crown stood removed from him by more than six introductions.


Today, though, we are a great Web of Connections; through the startling mechanisms of the Face Book & the Instagram, every American sits as close to the entire world as to the next stool at the tavern. But if I hoist a tankard with that fellow on the next stool, and that fellow be of foul mind and deed, am I to be under suspicion for his deeds as well, merely by virtue of sharing a place at the tavern with him?

The idea is foolishness; yet this is what we entertain when we cast nets such as the National Security Agency has cast.


To wit: Let us suppose, as we well might, that a colleague has long since Befriended you on the Face Book, & further that he has also Befriended his mother’s cousins—fully unaware that one of them lives a Secret Life of criminal enterprise. Unbeknownst to you, you are now yourself, in the eyes of the Watchers, part of a suspect web, your own actions and business deemed game to be peered at from afar in case you, too, might one day be guilty of some Crime. And in such light, your true and innocent behaviors can easily be questioned and misconstrued. You called a certain Medical Specialist—why? You sought to plan a route of travel from a particular church to an airplane terminal—why?


We may be Innocent until Proven Guilty, but if a man is not treated as an Innocent, then what good is Innocence under the law? And indeed, watching all men & women casts all under the clouds of Suspicion; it renders them Possibly Guilty rather than Presumed Innocent. To be treated as one who is Guilty is not living in a state of Liberty. If one must explain one’s doings, or be constantly fearful that they will be misinterpreted—ever a danger in a world where those with power abuse it without fear of Consequence—then one does not have true Freedom.


Let Mr. Edward Snowden, a former servant of the Central Intelligence Agency, serve as an example for us all in this new Future. It was through his efforts that the American people learned of this intrusive Surveillance Network to which they had not consented; & for this service, Mr. Snowden now finds that his erstwhile masters have named him traitor. Many have called for him to be brought to harsh justice—

Snip



It seems the cruelest Irony that the Department of Homeland Security has a slogan: “If you see something, say something.” In witnessing an injustice and speaking out, Mr. Snowden did as instructed. He is now vilified for it. Indeed, his very life may be forfeit for his deeds.



And yet if any one thing be as alarming as this Clandestine Surveillance Program itself, it is the very fact that the American people have been repeatedly instructed of its existence before Mr. Snowden’s sacrifice of self-interest, in Various & Sundry News Reports that did begin a full decade ago and continue through this year just past.

This so-called scandal should come as a surprise to none; & yet it seems holding our attention upon matters of national import for more than a fortnight is a feat no longer within our grasp.


A greater Tragedy for Liberty I cannot imagine, & for my part, I say we must not stand for it.


Read more: http://www.philadelphiaweekly.com/news-and-opinion/cover-story/Ben-Franklin-has-an-opinion-on-the-NSA-surveillance-scandal.html#ixzz2WgVZ6Pq8

[graham4anything]

1. Ben Franklin "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure". His most important quote

and that means doing anything to stop another 9-11 or an overthrow of the government (which is why he was talking about
it's yours if you keep it.) He meant stopping a Rand Paul type from overthrowing the country.

and Ben would also be in favor of drones.

In fact, I am sure Ben and the founding fathers (but NOT Jefferson of course) would be very happy with President Obama.

(Jefferson of course did not include President Obama in his "all men are created equal speech", now did he? No he did not.

[premium]

4. Bullshit.

He could just as well have meant that an ounce of preventing an overreaching govt. would be worth a pound of cure.
His most important quote was this

They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.

You have no idea of what Benjamin Franklin would be in favor of, but I highly doubt that he would be in favor of drones that are used to kill people, spy on people, etc.

Your ideas of security and the power of the State really scare the hell out of me.

[Orrex]

9. Did Franklin every actually present an argument in support of that pithy quote?

Or is it one of those utterances that we simply accept as sacrosanct because we find it aesthetically pleasing?

[premium]

10. Actually here's the quote,

"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both."

- Benjamin Franklin

If I remember correctly, and this is when I was in high school, (loooooooooooooooooong time ago), that if we're willing to give up our rights to give the govt more power to make us feel more secure, then, we, as a people, don't deserve our rights nor our security.
Gotta remember, back then the Founding Fathers were deeply suspicious of a central govt and didn't want to it to grow so large that it became omnipresent.

Sorry, that's the best I can do.

[Orrex]

14. Sorry--didn't mean to single you out

That Franklin quote has appeared in about 80% of the GD posts in the past week or so, and it got me thinking.

I checked out wikiquotes for a little background, and it seems that the quote appeared in various forms in various writings by Franklin.


It's a heck of a slogan, but I don't accept that it's self-evidently true, and I've seldom if ever seen a serious argument put forth to support it. I don't even necessarily disagree with it, though the reality is more complicated than Franklin's black and white framing of it.

[corkhead]

6. He was a Revolutionary, and the English would have used his meta-data as an excuse to imprison him

[Ichingcarpenter]

7. I enjoy history lessons from

made of word salads and Those who understand history are condemned to watch other idiots repeat it.

[corkhead]

12. I'm convinced he's either Andy Kauffman, a reincarnated Random Thoughts, a Manny wannabe

or some other sort of performance artist.

I am due beer money

This was a dead giveaway imho...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023048447

presumably in response to this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12527930

[hobbit709]

8. He also said "Early to bed and early to rise" even though he was known as a hearty partier.

[hobbit709]

11. Another Franklin quote.

Sell not virtue to purchase wealth, nor liberty to purchase power.

[Luminous Animal]

16. Apparently, he was talking aobut fires:

http://whenthealarmsounds.blogspot.com/2011/08/ben-franklins-ounce-of-prevention-led.html

"In the first place, as an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, I would advise how they suffer living brands-ends or coals in a full shovel to be carried out of one room into another or up or down stairs, unless in a warming-pan and shut; for scraps of fire may fall into chinks and make no appearance until mid-night; when your stairs being in flames, you may be forced, (as I once was) to leap out of your window and hazard your necks to avoid being over-raosted

If chimneys were more frequently and more carefully clean'd some fires might thereby be prevented. I have known foul chimneys to burn furiously a few days after they are swept; people in confidence that they are clean, making large fires. Everybody among us is allow'd to sweep chimneys that please to undertake that business; and if chimney fires thro' fault of the sweeper goes free. This thing is not right.

Those who undertake sweeping of chimneys and employ servants for that purpose, ought to be licensed by the Mayor; and if any chimney fires and flames out 15 days after sweeping, the fine should be paid by the sweeper; for it is his fault".

According to the book "Franklin and Fire" published in 1906, "one result of this paper seems to have been the founding of the Union Fire Company in 1736 by Franklin and four of his friends." They formed their fire company "for preserving our own and our fellow citizens' houses, goods, and effects in case of fire"

[Fla_Democrat]

20. His most important quote was clearly...

"Behold the rain which descends from heaven upon our vineyards, there it enters the roots of the vines, to be changed into wine, a constant proof that God loves us, and loves to see us happy."

[Catherina]

2. “A Republic, if you can keep it.”

“Well, Doctor, what have we got—a Republic or a Monarchy?”

“A Republic, if you can keep it.”

ATTRIBUTION: The response is attributed to BENJAMIN FRANKLIN—at the close of the Constitutional Convention of 1787, when queried as he left Independence Hall on the final day of deliberation—in the notes of Dr. James McHenry, one of Maryland’s delegates to the Convention.

http://www.bartleby.com/73/1593.html


Rec'd

[MannyGoldstein]

3. Good points.

The Franklin imitation, less good.

[corkhead]

5. In today's world, I am certain Ben's meta-data alone would have gotten him Gitmo'd

no need for "content"

Maybe shipped off to Australia? I'm not sure what the English equivalent of Devil's Island was, but I am sure they had one.

[maxrandb]

13. I would be willing to bet you that

if Ben Franklin, or any of the founders, were able to go to a court and legally obtain the writings and conversations of "Americans" who were collaborating with the British, or giving them aid in conducting terrorist attacks within the Colonies, he and they WOULD NOT HAVE HESITATED TO DO SO

I love History, but some on here seem to think that our Revolution, Civil War, etc., played out exactly like some "After School Special" they saw in their youth.

BTW - How did they catch Benedict Arnold...why, Washington was able to read some of Arnold's "papers" that had been intercepted.

Gee, I wonder if Ben Franklin would have attended Arnold's execution as a traitor. I guess we'll never know, as Arnold fled to Great Britain, but I'm sure Franklin was "aghast" at this invasion of Arnold's privacy.

"Washington learns of Arnold's Treason"

"Dinner at the Arnolds’ had been set for four o’clock. Washington completed his inspection in time to permit his rowers to get him back to Robinson’s House by three thirty. He strode anxiously up the steep bluff from the riverbank, but again the opening door revealed neither Arnold nor Peggy. It was Alexander Hamilton who greeted him. No, Hamilton had heard nothing of Arnold. No, Peggy had not emerged from her bedroom; she had sent down word that she was indisposed.

Washington walked along a hallway to the chamber that had been assigned to him and began to freshen up for the meal. There was a knock on the door. Hamilton came in carrying a handful of papers. Washington reached out for the packet and began to read.

In another room on the same floor Lafayette was washing up when Hamilton suddenly burst open the door. He begged the Marquis to attend instantly on his Excellency. Lafayette sprinted down the hall to find Washington trembling with emotion. “Arnold has betrayed us!” Washington cried out. “Whom can we trust now?”

The first task, as soon as the men had regained enough control to think rationally, was to determine by a careful examination of the many papers exactly what the situation was. There must have been (although it is now lost) a covering letter from the outpost commander, Lieutenant Colonel John Jameson, stating that three irregulars had been prowling in the British-dominated territory beyond the Croton River on Saturday, September 23, when they stopped a lone rider in civilian clothes. The rider, who stated that his name was John Anderson, behaved so strangely that they stripped him. They found documents in his shoes. Jameson was holding the man and was herewith forwarding the documents.

There was an official pass allowing “John Anderson” to move between the lines—made out by Benedict Arnold. Also in Arnold’s handwriting were a transcript of secret information Washington had given a council of war, pages of material about West Point that would be useful to a besieger, and a rough accounting of the fort’s 3,086 men, patriots whom Arnold had slated for death or capture.

A later addition to the packet was a letter, meticulously executed in an elegant script. It proved to be from the prisoner: “I beg your Excellency will be persuaded that no alteration in the temper of my mind, or apprehension for my safety, induces me to take the step of addressing you, but that it is to secure myself from an imputation of having assumed a mean character for treacherous purposes or self-interest, a conduct incompatible with the principles that actuate me, as well as with my condition in life. … The person in your possession is Major John André, Adjutant General to the British army.”

[hobbit709]

15. What BS.

The papers Major Andre was carrying were intercepted in the course of a patrol. Andre was a spy. They were not intercepted just by watching everything Arnold wrote. spies in enemy territory get intercepted.

Franklin's comments to Layaette on learning about Arnold'
Passy, Mar. 14, 1781.

You mention my having enemies in America. You are luckier, for I think you have none here, nor any where. Your friends have heard of your being gone against the traitor Arnold, and are anxious to hear of your success, and that you have brought him to justice. Enclosed is a copy of a letter from his agent in England, by which the price of his treason may be nearly guessed at. Judas sold only one man, Arnold three millions; Judas got for his one man 30 pieces of silver, Arnold not a halfpenny a head. A miserable bargainer! Especially when one considers the quantity of infamy he has acquired to himself, and entailed on his family.

[maxrandb]

17. Hmm, sounds to me like Ben would have done anything to catch Arnold

Those papers were intercepted from a man in civilian clothes going about his business on horseback. Heck, we didn't "tap" his phone, we stripped him naked and found Arnold's correspondence in his shoe.

And please don't try to put words in Franklin's mouth. I think that he, and the rest of the original founders, are a heck of a lot deeper than any of us know, and a heck of a lot more flawed than we'd ever guess.

If you honestly think that we "didn't" use intelligence gathering during the Revolutionary War, or if you think we "didn't" use "data-mining" during Franklin's times, you're delusional.

[KittyWampus]

19. They were the right men at the right time in history. But definitely flawed. Franklin wanted to

prevent separation from England & hoped for a nice land allotment for himself.

On the other hand, he knew he was being spied on and used that to great effect.

[KittyWampus]

18. Franklin would have been labeled a PINO (Patriot In Name Only) By Many On DU

Most who invoke him & his statements know little of his actual history.

[maxrandb]

21. Could you imagine the gnashing of teeth if DU had

been around during Lincoln's time?

I mean, sure...he wants to end slavery and bind up the wounds of the Union, BUT HE'S JUST LIKE JEFFERSON DAVIS

I mean, there's no difference between the parties