General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsThe rationale for tax-free religion is a real problem
As I understand it, churches/recognized religions pay no taxes and even GET subsidies largely because of their charity and "good-works" policies.
Many churches/religions are equal-opportunity "givers", but many are quite stingy with their favors, or require prayer-time before feeding time.
What if churches were relieved from this charity altogether, and the NATION/government took over the responsibility to care for the "least ofs" in society?
Surely the tax revenue from churches "rendering to Caesar" and the money saved from retracted subsidies, would go a long way to paying for it.
IF churches still wanted to do their charitable works, they could perhaps get a deduction on their taxes (like we all do when we donate).
Their taxes could be based on money taken in that is over and above the actual cost of running the place, and no more freebee property tax (non-tax) on property that is not the actual footprint of the church and its parking lot.
This would go a long way to curbing the excesses of the mega church moguls.
Churches should always be free to preach whatever they want, and to minister to their flock as their religion sees fit, AS LONG AS IT IS STRICTLY church-stuff.
It they CHOOSE to operate a hospital or school, they should have to abide by the same business practices that the rest of society has to comply with, unless their doors are only open to their own religious group.
If the Catholics/Lutherans/Methodists, etc run a private hospital that is only open to Catholics/Lutherans/Methodists, etc, and it's staffed by members, their rules & regulations should be their own business, BUT, if they are open to the public and rely on public money to operate, they should be seen as any other business in a capitalist society. If they are well-tended/funded , they will flourish but if they are poorly run and use a bad business model, how are they any different from any other business? If you open a day care business in a senior citizen community, your business may just fail..Will the government subsidize you so you can stay open?
niyad
(113,490 posts)nanabugg
(2,198 posts)so let it be. Hagee's church is not only a political hack school, it is an unregistered lobby for Israel.
FrodosPet
(5,169 posts)I wouldn't want the government muzzling what I say. If I want to preach, "So and so is a dirtbag" from the pulpit I want the IRS to stay the hell out of it.
End the tax exemption and let them say whatever they want.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)Political participation?
Newspaper publishing?
Voting?
Health care?
Only the ones we personally disagree with?
gratuitous
(82,849 posts)Strictly verboten.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)According to some.
Sparkly
(24,149 posts)Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)but I'd love to see sources that said his church and political groups were/should be subject to whatever tax rate a hostile government decided to dictate.
Sparkly
(24,149 posts)Nobody says it did.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)Why isn't there equal courtesy afforded to religious charities seeking a conscience exemption from a political mandate?
Sparkly
(24,149 posts)There is already a "conscience exemption," and churches are NOT required to distribute birth control.
Do they also have a "right" to prevent women from exercising their rights? This is about health insurance companies, not the church.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)It seems no one is being prevented from anything.
The whole separation of church and state thing means churches cannot ask me to fund their religious practices. I would imagine that it is a two-way street and the institution supported by my taxes will not dictate to churches.
It would be wrong to tell a religious institution they could not fire an employee for adultery. One recent ase involved a teacher who took her grievance to a civil court rather than leaving the church elders to adjudicate an internal dispute. the court upheld the firing because the church (not catholic) could show an established doctrine.
This entire DU-based Anti-Catholic League is an embarrassment especially considering how many people CORRECTLY were outraged by the rank bigotry of Oklahoma's anti-Sharia amendment to their state constitution. Sadly, it seems religious liberty is a selective principle.
DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)Wow, I really do learn something new every day.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)Sorry you find it so hard to walk and chew gum at the same time.
Sparkly
(24,149 posts)Which is to say they are not exempt from civil rights laws.
And if they aren't complying with requirements for non-profit status, then they could, and should, have that status revoked.
Here's a link:
http://www.irs.gov/charities/charitable/article/0,,id=96099,00.html
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)A private and public employer cannot discriminate on the basis of religion or the absence thereof but religious institutions can decline to hire someone outside their faith.
Unless you think the Muslim Students Union HAS to hire a Southern Baptist or the Metropolitan Community Church HAS to hire anti-gay fundies.
Sparkly
(24,149 posts)Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)Edited to add:
Abstract
In 1980 the Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter-day Saints (LDS Church) notified five employees that they could no longer continue in church employment because they would not or could not attend the temple as members in good standing. Together, the five filed suit in federal district court in Utah, alleging that the LDS Church discriminated against them on religious grounds in violation of Title VII of the federal Civil Rights Act of 1964, which generally prohibits discrimination in employment on the basis of religion. The plaintiffs said the statutory exemption for religious organizations in Section 702 operated as a religious preference and penalized their personal choices of religion in violation of the First Amendment. The case ended up in the Supreme Court, which upheld the provision exempting religious organizations from Title VII with respect to employing people of a particular religion for all not-for-profit activities. Evidence in the case included: Legislative history. As first enacted in 1964, Section 702 provided a limited exemption to religious corporations. In 1972 Congress enacted a broader exemption, effectively exempting from the sweep of Title VII employment decisions made by religious employers with respect to members of that religion in any work connected with the religious corporation. District court proceedings. The Utah court borrowed from several earlier cases, including one that avoided the constitutional issue by deciding that the function challenged was uniquely religious and, thus, exempted. Briefs amicus curiae. Four religious organizations filed briefs amicus curiae.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10288412
Sparkly
(24,149 posts)I get that. They can discriminate on the basis of religion.
But they aren't exempt from all other laws.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)Certainly no one would argue human sacrifice or ritualized prostitution or some similar "compelling state interest" is permitted. The cited cases involves not just hiring but terms of on-going employment.
I would also recall that your original contention involved Civil Rights laws, not laws in general. The case law seems settled: the government cannot force an exemption to the Establishment and Free Exercise clause to impose its political will on a religious organization absent a compelling state interest.
Union Scribe
(7,099 posts)about how community services suffer when parish churches close. I think a lot of people are looking to stick it to the churches, and they don't honestly get what that does to the people who are helped in the community.
And, seriously, do you really mean that you want them to be "seen as any other business in a capitalist society"--because that's worked so well for everyone?
Aerows
(39,961 posts)Do you think it could have something to do with gross mismanagement, an inability to stay with the times instead of relentless clinging to dogma, and possibly covering up child rape by church officials?
The last one is a pretty good reason why a lot of people are pissed with churches. It seems like every week there is some minister that is fooling around with children.
Union Scribe
(7,099 posts)And what do any of those things have to do with taxation? That's the kind of thing I'm talking about. It ultimately comes down to things like that, that have nothing to do with tax law. People want to fuck with churches for a whole host of reasons, mostly boiling down to a dislike of religion couched in excuses, and whatever collateral damage is caused will be forgotten like a corpse in the shadow of a drone bomber.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)or any particular church. I was referring to all of them. I'm up for equal opportunity taxation of churches.
Union Scribe
(7,099 posts)that's based on any tax law.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)They should be taxed like one, imho. And that's just it - it's my opinion. Yours apparently varies
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)Aerows
(39,961 posts)and there are already provisions for tax write-offs in that case.
Zalatix
(8,994 posts)former9thward
(32,046 posts)The Walz v. New York Tax Commission decision is where that phrase comes from.
Zalatix
(8,994 posts)TAX THE CHURCHES. NOW.
The Supreme Court is flawed just like any other institution.
former9thward
(32,046 posts)but in that decision they correctly interpreted the First Amendment. If you want to tax the churches you have to change the First A.
Zalatix
(8,994 posts)If paying taxes means I can't freely exercise my religion then paying taxes means I can't speak freely, either. Oh wait. Nope, the SC's logic still sucks.
Tax. Churches. NOW.
bongbong
(5,436 posts)> If paying taxes means I can't freely exercise my religion then paying taxes means I can't speak freely, either.
Excellent point!
muriel_volestrangler
(101,337 posts)Why would taxing religious institutions exactly the same way non-religious institutions are taxed break the 1st Amendment?
former9thward
(32,046 posts)If you think that is the same as a church there is nothing more I can say to you.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,337 posts)You may consider it a good thing that churches, or non-profit organisations, aren't taxed, but stop pretending that the 1st Amendment says anything about it.
Religions should be treated the same way as other non-profit organisations, eg Greenpeace.
former9thward
(32,046 posts)Which is why congress could tax corporations out of existence if they felt like it. The amendment does say congress shall do nothing to inhibit the free exercise of religion and that is why the supreme court has said that taxation is not allowed.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,337 posts)and there is a profound difference between the two words. Really, if you're going to argue based on the wording of the amendment, you'd think you'd bother to look it up and check first.
former9thward
(32,046 posts)I am not arguing based on the wording. I am arguing based on what both liberals and conservatives on the Supreme Court have said those words mean. If you don't like those rulings, fine, but since there is consensus you will not get it changed the way you would like.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,337 posts)You said it said 'inhibit', and then say "that is why the supreme court has said...".
former9thward
(32,046 posts)If I didn't have any facts I would too.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,337 posts)and yet you were the one claiming the amendment would have to be changed to allow the taxation of churches. I only replied to you because of your fact-free assertion. You're doing a bang-up job of ignoring Zalatix's point too, I see.
former9thward
(32,046 posts)They didn't agree that taxation of churches would be allowed by the wording of the Amendment. You don't agree with the consensus of the Court on this issue. Fine. Zalatix doesn't agree also. Fine. That is where we disagree. Don't try and insult me by saying I am not familiar with the wording of the amendment.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,337 posts)The case had been brought by someone saying that the New York tax exemption was unconstitutional, and should be ended; the decision was that it did not break the Establishment clause, so could be allowed to continue. I can see nothing in it saying that taxation of churches was not allowed; merely that exemption was allowed. Here's the decision: if you can quote where they "didn't agree that taxation of churches would be allowed by the wording of the Amendment", then point to it.
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=CASE&court=US&vol=397&page=664
former9thward
(32,046 posts)Please point to a SC decision which backs you up. Please point out someone in politics who agrees with you. Please point out a Legal scholar that agrees with you. Please point out a political party that agrees with you.
This is one issue where being part of the 1% isn't so good.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,337 posts)You have been maintaining that the first amendment forbids taxation of churches; and then, when the wording of it is pointed out, you say that existing SC decisions have interpreted it that way. I'm saying that's not true. So far, you haven't been able to show evidence it's true.
Now you're asking me to find a case which has already decided that taxation is allowed. Since the federal government, and the states, have not recently tried to reimpose taxes on churches, we can't find such a judgement, so it's pointless in you asking me to find such a case (though I would say that, since the Walz judgement does not mention that churches must be exempt, it would have a chance of being found constitutional, as long as it didn't discriminate relative to non-religious groups).
American parties may not agree with me or the several other people on the thread who think a religious exemption is unjust. But that doesn't mean my position is 'not good'. I believe that the death penalty should be abolished in the USA, but the Democratic or Republican party won't touch that with a bargepole. It should be recognised that the exemption is there because most Americans are religious, and they want a tax break for their religion. It's not 'part of the Constitution'. It's pork.
former9thward
(32,046 posts)There are countless politicians/government leaders who are against the death penalty. I asked for even one who favors taxation of churches. I asked for a legal scholar who backs it. If you read the Walz decision it is very clear the court would not allow taxation.
From Walz "freedom from taxation for two centuries has not led to an established church or religion, and, on the contrary, has helped to guarantee the free exercise of all forms of religious belief.
You may favor taxation but it is not constitutional. Nothing I say will change your mind of course. And no comment from the SC will change it either. You will maintain taxation is allowed under the Constitution without a shred of evidence.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,337 posts)If you want a legal scholar who thought the taxation of churches would be constitutional, try the dissenting opinion in Walz.
former9thward
(32,046 posts)Douglas, in his prime, was a good civil libertarian and a scholar but at the end his opinions became very erratic -- see his dissent in Morton where he said a tree had standing to sue in court. Justices on the court voted to send to the next term any decision where Douglas' vote would make a difference. I place his dissent in Walz in that category.
Yo_Mama
(8,303 posts)Churches ARE treated the same way as other non-profit organizations, which is why you cannot pass a law taxing churches unless you also tax all those other non-profits. Greenpeace is a 501(c)(3) organization. The various Catholic groups are exempt under 501(c)(3) also.
It's because of the "free exercise" clause. The protection from taxation churches have is both traditional but legal because it is granted to all these other public-purpose groups. It would not be legal to remove it from a churchish organization engaging in the same activity as the other non-profit type organization because you can't debar religious people from rights non-religious people have, or debar non-religious people from rights religious people have.
Findlaw is your friend - try these two links:
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/constitution/amendment01/01.html#4
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/constitution/amendment01/04.html#1
muriel_volestrangler
(101,337 posts)Greenpeace has to have a separate charity, which cannot lobby, for any tax-deductible donations. Churches, however, lobby freely, but still get special tax treatment.
Greenpeace, Inc. is a non-profit, tax-exempt organization. Because of our effective work for new environmental laws and policies, contributions to Greenpeace are not tax-deductible.
Greenpeace is represented by two separate entities in the United States, Greenpeace, Inc. and Greenpeace Fund, Inc. While both organizations work on the same mission, they do so through different strategies. Greenpeace, Inc. is a campaigning and lobbying organization and is registered as a 501(c)(4) entity. Contributions to Greenpeace, Inc. are not tax deductible.
Greenpeace Fund, Inc. is a grant making organization that provides funding for Greenpeace's research, charitable and public education activities entities worldwide. Greenpeace Fund is registered as a 501(c)(3) entity and has limits on its ability to lobby.
http://www.greenpeace.org/usa/en/support-us/Frequently-asked-membership-questions/#tax
Zalatix
(8,994 posts)If paying taxes means I can't freely exercise my religion then paying taxes means I can't speak freely, either.
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)former9thward
(32,046 posts)Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)that said newspapers were different because of the profit thing. Seems the RCC makes a nice little profit.
former9thward
(32,046 posts)Which I don't believe has anything to do with this issue. I'm sure the RCC takes in a lot of money and I'm sure the leaders live well. But they do not make a "profit" in the sense of a company. I don't happen to think it is Constitutional to tax churches no matter how their leaders are living.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,337 posts)I just mentioned newspapers; you said that didn't count because "Newspapers are run for the express purpose of making a profit".
former9thward
(32,046 posts)A topic completely unrelated to this thread. Newspapers are companies and companies exist to make a profit. They can be taxed just like any other company. So What? It has nothing to do with the subject.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,337 posts)Thus if the subject is "does the 1st prevent any taxation of churches?", then a look at what happens with taxation of other organisations covered by it is relevant.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)"Spite is often the best a weak man can do"
Thurgood Marshall, as Solicitor General in June, 1965
Zalatix
(8,994 posts)I'm now adding the removal of tax-exempt status for churches to my list of things to do, right alongside tariffs and ending corporate personhood... another big mistake the Supreme Court has made.
JVS
(61,935 posts)of the Bush administration, there wasn't subsidization. That's a separate issue.
Churches could also be tax free if they filed their paperwork as a social club. 501(c)7 instead of 501(c)3. And nobody expects social clubs to do squat for anyone.
Kellerfeller
(397 posts)Puzzledtraveller
(5,937 posts)The work around on this current issue is available, and even VP Biden appealed for one.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,337 posts)So, if you think it's 'clear', then that would seem to mean you think there should be no special treatment for religions. The amendment also talks about the freedom of the press, but that does not result in special tax rules for newspaper publishers.
quaker bill
(8,224 posts)The point of government and church being separate is that you never want the government of be concerned about church attendance and income. Government spends a great deal of time and tax dollars promoting and cutting deals for businesses that create jobs and tax revenue. I don't think you really want the Church standing in that line.
Yo_Mama
(8,303 posts)And I find it hard to see how taxing churches is appropriate given the constitution and current federal law.
Under federal law, churches get tax exemptions under 501(c) rules:
http://www.irs.gov/charities/charitable/article/0,,id=96099,00.html
This is an important constitutional issue - government can't disadvantage churches compared to other charitable/public purpose nonprofit organizations, nor can it advantage churches.
Churches and other religious/charitable organizations are exempt from taxation if they are deemed to have an exempt purpose, which is not restricted to churches:
Any organization has a right, without penalty, to appeal to the government for a redress of grievances. That right cannot be financially penalized under law because of that knotty difficulty known as the First Amendment:
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/constitution/amendment01/
First Amendment rights are both individual and corporate (adhere when people act in a group). Congress could not pass a law saying a Catholic was debarred from petitioning his/her legislative representatives, or do the same thing to the Catholic Church. Nor could it do the same to one of the kazillion Harvard Foundations, etc.
If Congress passes a minimum wage law and fails to realize that this will cause a number of handicapped persons working under special legal provisions to lose their jobs, the organizations employing them have every right to appeal to Congress to reconsider (this is a real example). These organizations also have the right to appeal to the public on the issue and to all those using their facilities.
Anyway, here is a summary from the first link above to Findlaw about the case history on religious exemptions:
For the second prong, the Court created a new test, the entanglement test, 134 by which to judge the program. There was some entanglement whether there were exemptions or not, Chief Justice Burger continued, but with exemptions there was minimal involvement. But termination of exemptions would deeply involve government in the internal affairs of religious bodies, because evaluation of religious properties for tax purposes would be required and there would be tax liens and foreclosures and litigation concerning such matters. 135
muriel_volestrangler
(101,337 posts)That's the fundamental argument, I think. Advancement of political philosophies doesn't get exemption. It should only be the actual charitable work (ie work that benefits people) that should qualify.
I believe that 'second prong' is a cop-out - saying that ending exemptions would be complicated is not a good reason not to do it. If someone has set up an intricate tax evasion scheme, while posing as a church, you wouldn't just say "investigating it means involvement in church affairs - we must forget it".