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SoCalDem

(103,856 posts)
Mon Feb 13, 2012, 12:55 PM Feb 2012

The rationale for tax-free religion is a real problem

As I understand it, churches/recognized religions pay no taxes and even GET subsidies largely because of their charity and "good-works" policies.

Many churches/religions are equal-opportunity "givers", but many are quite stingy with their favors, or require prayer-time before feeding time.

What if churches were relieved from this charity altogether, and the NATION/government took over the responsibility to care for the "least ofs" in society?

Surely the tax revenue from churches "rendering to Caesar" and the money saved from retracted subsidies, would go a long way to paying for it.


IF churches still wanted to do their charitable works, they could perhaps get a deduction on their taxes (like we all do when we donate).

Their taxes could be based on money taken in that is over and above the actual cost of running the place, and no more freebee property tax (non-tax) on property that is not the actual footprint of the church and its parking lot.

This would go a long way to curbing the excesses of the mega church moguls.

Churches should always be free to preach whatever they want, and to minister to their flock as their religion sees fit, AS LONG AS IT IS STRICTLY church-stuff.

It they CHOOSE to operate a hospital or school, they should have to abide by the same business practices that the rest of society has to comply with, unless their doors are only open to their own religious group.

If the Catholics/Lutherans/Methodists, etc run a private hospital that is only open to Catholics/Lutherans/Methodists, etc, and it's staffed by members, their rules & regulations should be their own business, BUT, if they are open to the public and rely on public money to operate, they should be seen as any other business in a capitalist society. If they are well-tended/funded , they will flourish but if they are poorly run and use a bad business model, how are they any different from any other business? If you open a day care business in a senior citizen community, your business may just fail..Will the government subsidize you so you can stay open?

70 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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The rationale for tax-free religion is a real problem (Original Post) SoCalDem Feb 2012 OP
k and r--this ought to make for interesting comment. niyad Feb 2012 #1
Since churches are becoming so political the tax exemption should be lifted. They say it's "war" nanabugg Feb 2012 #29
If I ran a church, I would NOT want to be tax free FrodosPet Feb 2012 #39
Which rights should be taxed and which rights should be free of taxation? Nuclear Unicorn Feb 2012 #2
Shhhh! You're confusing the prejudice with facts gratuitous Feb 2012 #3
Here's a fundie preacher who got all political and should've been taxed into silence -- Nuclear Unicorn Feb 2012 #6
He paid his taxes. Sparkly Feb 2012 #10
Maybe personal income tax Nuclear Unicorn Feb 2012 #12
Um, that hasn't happened. Sparkly Feb 2012 #14
Well, if religiously motivated political speech is exempt Nuclear Unicorn Feb 2012 #16
"Religiously motivated speech" is different from setting policy as a church representative. Sparkly Feb 2012 #18
Posters on DU keep citing stats about X-percent of Catholics using BC Nuclear Unicorn Feb 2012 #36
being against child rapists embarrasses you? DisgustipatedinCA Feb 2012 #58
That's as absurd and bigoted as saying Islam breeds terrorists. Nuclear Unicorn Feb 2012 #59
I think they should be treated like other non-profits. Sparkly Feb 2012 #5
The courts have long recognized religious exemptions even to CR law Nuclear Unicorn Feb 2012 #7
They aren't above civil rights laws, labor laws, etc. Sparkly Feb 2012 #9
As I just pointed out -- yes, they are as established by case law. Nuclear Unicorn Feb 2012 #11
You're talking about hiring practices. Sparkly Feb 2012 #15
"all other laws" is rather broad Nuclear Unicorn Feb 2012 #33
This Sunday there was a great article in the Detroit Free Press Union Scribe Feb 2012 #4
Why do you think people want to "stick it to the churches"? Aerows Feb 2012 #21
Generally, "tax 'em all" threads are not limited to Catholic churches Union Scribe Feb 2012 #28
I wasn't just referring to the Catholic church Aerows Feb 2012 #30
And, from what you've described, for no good reason Union Scribe Feb 2012 #31
If they act like a business Aerows Feb 2012 #32
What if they're not acting like a business but acting like a charity or service provider? n/t Nuclear Unicorn Feb 2012 #34
That's different Aerows Feb 2012 #41
K&R just to spite the "power to tax is the power to destroy" crowd. Zalatix Feb 2012 #8
That crowd includes Justice Thurgood Marshall. former9thward Feb 2012 #17
You said it before. I'd give another K&R just for you. Zalatix Feb 2012 #19
The SC may be flawed former9thward Feb 2012 #23
Taxation curtails the free exercise of religion HOW? Zalatix Feb 2012 #24
good point bongbong Feb 2012 #25
Newspaper publishers are taxed, but that doesn't break the 1st Amendment muriel_volestrangler Feb 2012 #27
Newspapers are run for the express purpose of making a profit. former9thward Feb 2012 #38
There's nothing in the amendment about 'profit', either muriel_volestrangler Feb 2012 #40
No there is nothing about profit in the First Amendment. former9thward Feb 2012 #42
Wrong; it says 'prohibiting', not 'inhibit' muriel_volestrangler Feb 2012 #43
Ohhh the typo police just gave me a ticket. former9thward Feb 2012 #44
You were arguing on the wording muriel_volestrangler Feb 2012 #45
Go ahead, side step the issue. former9thward Feb 2012 #48
Facts? I'm the one who's had to point out to you, 3 times, what is and isn't in the amendment muriel_volestrangler Feb 2012 #49
I agree with the Walz decision of the Supreme Court directly on this issue. former9thward Feb 2012 #50
The Walz decision was that tax exemption did not break the 1st Amendment muriel_volestrangler Feb 2012 #55
Since you seem to think the SC would allow taxation if they had the right case former9thward Feb 2012 #57
You're moving the goalposts muriel_volestrangler Feb 2012 #61
Your analogy to the death penalty is poor. former9thward Feb 2012 #64
Your quote from Walz doesn't say say taxation is not constitutional muriel_volestrangler Feb 2012 #65
As I said no comment from the SC will convince you. former9thward Feb 2012 #67
You just negated your own argument. Yo_Mama Feb 2012 #54
There is a difference; donations to Greenpeace are not tax-deductible muriel_volestrangler Feb 2012 #56
Taxation curtails the free exercise of religion... how? Zalatix Feb 2012 #46
Yeah, the heads of the RCC live in adject poverty. n/t Goblinmonger Feb 2012 #47
Which means what in relation to this issue? former9thward Feb 2012 #51
I thought it was you Goblinmonger Feb 2012 #63
It was another poster who brought up profit and newspapers. former9thward Feb 2012 #66
No, it was you who brought up profit and newspapers muriel_volestrangler Feb 2012 #68
You brought up newspapers former9thward Feb 2012 #69
The 1st amendmnt includes freedom of the press, and no law prohibiting the free practice of religion muriel_volestrangler Feb 2012 #70
Spite is often... LanternWaste Feb 2012 #20
Often, but not always. Zalatix Feb 2012 #22
I think your understanding is incorrect. And also before the "faith based initiatives"... JVS Feb 2012 #13
Separation of church and state? (nt) Kellerfeller Feb 2012 #26
1st amendment is pretty clear Puzzledtraveller Feb 2012 #35
It clearly doesn't mention tax at all muriel_volestrangler Feb 2012 #37
A problem, a consistent problem quaker bill Feb 2012 #52
It's based on a constitutional protection Yo_Mama Feb 2012 #53
And why should 'advancement of religion' be considered a charitable purpose? muriel_volestrangler Feb 2012 #62
I'm With You, (Be Ready For Some Backlash) we can do it Feb 2012 #60
 

nanabugg

(2,198 posts)
29. Since churches are becoming so political the tax exemption should be lifted. They say it's "war"
Tue Feb 14, 2012, 12:35 AM
Feb 2012

so let it be. Hagee's church is not only a political hack school, it is an unregistered lobby for Israel.

FrodosPet

(5,169 posts)
39. If I ran a church, I would NOT want to be tax free
Tue Feb 14, 2012, 11:45 AM
Feb 2012

I wouldn't want the government muzzling what I say. If I want to preach, "So and so is a dirtbag" from the pulpit I want the IRS to stay the hell out of it.

End the tax exemption and let them say whatever they want.

Nuclear Unicorn

(19,497 posts)
2. Which rights should be taxed and which rights should be free of taxation?
Mon Feb 13, 2012, 01:37 PM
Feb 2012

Political participation?
Newspaper publishing?
Voting?
Health care?
Only the ones we personally disagree with?

Nuclear Unicorn

(19,497 posts)
6. Here's a fundie preacher who got all political and should've been taxed into silence --
Mon Feb 13, 2012, 01:53 PM
Feb 2012


According to some.

Nuclear Unicorn

(19,497 posts)
12. Maybe personal income tax
Mon Feb 13, 2012, 02:20 PM
Feb 2012

but I'd love to see sources that said his church and political groups were/should be subject to whatever tax rate a hostile government decided to dictate.

Nuclear Unicorn

(19,497 posts)
16. Well, if religiously motivated political speech is exempt
Mon Feb 13, 2012, 02:42 PM
Feb 2012

Why isn't there equal courtesy afforded to religious charities seeking a conscience exemption from a political mandate?

Sparkly

(24,149 posts)
18. "Religiously motivated speech" is different from setting policy as a church representative.
Mon Feb 13, 2012, 02:47 PM
Feb 2012

There is already a "conscience exemption," and churches are NOT required to distribute birth control.

Do they also have a "right" to prevent women from exercising their rights? This is about health insurance companies, not the church.

Nuclear Unicorn

(19,497 posts)
36. Posters on DU keep citing stats about X-percent of Catholics using BC
Tue Feb 14, 2012, 10:11 AM
Feb 2012

It seems no one is being prevented from anything.

The whole separation of church and state thing means churches cannot ask me to fund their religious practices. I would imagine that it is a two-way street and the institution supported by my taxes will not dictate to churches.

It would be wrong to tell a religious institution they could not fire an employee for adultery. One recent ase involved a teacher who took her grievance to a civil court rather than leaving the church elders to adjudicate an internal dispute. the court upheld the firing because the church (not catholic) could show an established doctrine.

This entire DU-based Anti-Catholic League is an embarrassment especially considering how many people CORRECTLY were outraged by the rank bigotry of Oklahoma's anti-Sharia amendment to their state constitution. Sadly, it seems religious liberty is a selective principle.

Nuclear Unicorn

(19,497 posts)
59. That's as absurd and bigoted as saying Islam breeds terrorists.
Tue Feb 14, 2012, 08:32 PM
Feb 2012

Sorry you find it so hard to walk and chew gum at the same time.

Sparkly

(24,149 posts)
5. I think they should be treated like other non-profits.
Mon Feb 13, 2012, 01:48 PM
Feb 2012

Which is to say they are not exempt from civil rights laws.

And if they aren't complying with requirements for non-profit status, then they could, and should, have that status revoked.

Here's a link:
http://www.irs.gov/charities/charitable/article/0,,id=96099,00.html

Nuclear Unicorn

(19,497 posts)
7. The courts have long recognized religious exemptions even to CR law
Mon Feb 13, 2012, 02:03 PM
Feb 2012

A private and public employer cannot discriminate on the basis of religion or the absence thereof but religious institutions can decline to hire someone outside their faith.

Unless you think the Muslim Students Union HAS to hire a Southern Baptist or the Metropolitan Community Church HAS to hire anti-gay fundies.

Nuclear Unicorn

(19,497 posts)
11. As I just pointed out -- yes, they are as established by case law.
Mon Feb 13, 2012, 02:19 PM
Feb 2012

Edited to add:

Abstract

In 1980 the Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter-day Saints (LDS Church) notified five employees that they could no longer continue in church employment because they would not or could not attend the temple as members in good standing. Together, the five filed suit in federal district court in Utah, alleging that the LDS Church discriminated against them on religious grounds in violation of Title VII of the federal Civil Rights Act of 1964, which generally prohibits discrimination in employment on the basis of religion. The plaintiffs said the statutory exemption for religious organizations in Section 702 operated as a religious preference and penalized their personal choices of religion in violation of the First Amendment. The case ended up in the Supreme Court, which upheld the provision exempting religious organizations from Title VII with respect to employing people of a particular religion for all not-for-profit activities. Evidence in the case included: Legislative history. As first enacted in 1964, Section 702 provided a limited exemption to religious corporations. In 1972 Congress enacted a broader exemption, effectively exempting from the sweep of Title VII employment decisions made by religious employers with respect to members of that religion in any work connected with the religious corporation. District court proceedings. The Utah court borrowed from several earlier cases, including one that avoided the constitutional issue by deciding that the function challenged was uniquely religious and, thus, exempted. Briefs amicus curiae. Four religious organizations filed briefs amicus curiae.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10288412

Sparkly

(24,149 posts)
15. You're talking about hiring practices.
Mon Feb 13, 2012, 02:42 PM
Feb 2012

I get that. They can discriminate on the basis of religion.

But they aren't exempt from all other laws.

Nuclear Unicorn

(19,497 posts)
33. "all other laws" is rather broad
Tue Feb 14, 2012, 09:59 AM
Feb 2012

Certainly no one would argue human sacrifice or ritualized prostitution or some similar "compelling state interest" is permitted. The cited cases involves not just hiring but terms of on-going employment.

I would also recall that your original contention involved Civil Rights laws, not laws in general. The case law seems settled: the government cannot force an exemption to the Establishment and Free Exercise clause to impose its political will on a religious organization absent a compelling state interest.

Union Scribe

(7,099 posts)
4. This Sunday there was a great article in the Detroit Free Press
Mon Feb 13, 2012, 01:42 PM
Feb 2012

about how community services suffer when parish churches close. I think a lot of people are looking to stick it to the churches, and they don't honestly get what that does to the people who are helped in the community.

And, seriously, do you really mean that you want them to be "seen as any other business in a capitalist society"--because that's worked so well for everyone?

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
21. Why do you think people want to "stick it to the churches"?
Mon Feb 13, 2012, 03:14 PM
Feb 2012

Do you think it could have something to do with gross mismanagement, an inability to stay with the times instead of relentless clinging to dogma, and possibly covering up child rape by church officials?

The last one is a pretty good reason why a lot of people are pissed with churches. It seems like every week there is some minister that is fooling around with children.

Union Scribe

(7,099 posts)
28. Generally, "tax 'em all" threads are not limited to Catholic churches
Tue Feb 14, 2012, 12:28 AM
Feb 2012

And what do any of those things have to do with taxation? That's the kind of thing I'm talking about. It ultimately comes down to things like that, that have nothing to do with tax law. People want to fuck with churches for a whole host of reasons, mostly boiling down to a dislike of religion couched in excuses, and whatever collateral damage is caused will be forgotten like a corpse in the shadow of a drone bomber.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
30. I wasn't just referring to the Catholic church
Tue Feb 14, 2012, 01:15 AM
Feb 2012

or any particular church. I was referring to all of them. I'm up for equal opportunity taxation of churches.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
32. If they act like a business
Tue Feb 14, 2012, 01:34 AM
Feb 2012

They should be taxed like one, imho. And that's just it - it's my opinion. Yours apparently varies

former9thward

(32,046 posts)
17. That crowd includes Justice Thurgood Marshall.
Mon Feb 13, 2012, 02:46 PM
Feb 2012

The Walz v. New York Tax Commission decision is where that phrase comes from.

 

Zalatix

(8,994 posts)
19. You said it before. I'd give another K&R just for you.
Mon Feb 13, 2012, 03:10 PM
Feb 2012

TAX THE CHURCHES. NOW.

The Supreme Court is flawed just like any other institution.

former9thward

(32,046 posts)
23. The SC may be flawed
Mon Feb 13, 2012, 03:21 PM
Feb 2012

but in that decision they correctly interpreted the First Amendment. If you want to tax the churches you have to change the First A.

 

Zalatix

(8,994 posts)
24. Taxation curtails the free exercise of religion HOW?
Mon Feb 13, 2012, 03:24 PM
Feb 2012

If paying taxes means I can't freely exercise my religion then paying taxes means I can't speak freely, either. Oh wait. Nope, the SC's logic still sucks.

Tax. Churches. NOW.

 

bongbong

(5,436 posts)
25. good point
Mon Feb 13, 2012, 04:59 PM
Feb 2012

> If paying taxes means I can't freely exercise my religion then paying taxes means I can't speak freely, either.

Excellent point!

muriel_volestrangler

(101,337 posts)
27. Newspaper publishers are taxed, but that doesn't break the 1st Amendment
Mon Feb 13, 2012, 09:27 PM
Feb 2012

Why would taxing religious institutions exactly the same way non-religious institutions are taxed break the 1st Amendment?

former9thward

(32,046 posts)
38. Newspapers are run for the express purpose of making a profit.
Tue Feb 14, 2012, 11:39 AM
Feb 2012

If you think that is the same as a church there is nothing more I can say to you.

muriel_volestrangler

(101,337 posts)
40. There's nothing in the amendment about 'profit', either
Tue Feb 14, 2012, 11:50 AM
Feb 2012

You may consider it a good thing that churches, or non-profit organisations, aren't taxed, but stop pretending that the 1st Amendment says anything about it.

Religions should be treated the same way as other non-profit organisations, eg Greenpeace.

former9thward

(32,046 posts)
42. No there is nothing about profit in the First Amendment.
Tue Feb 14, 2012, 01:13 PM
Feb 2012

Which is why congress could tax corporations out of existence if they felt like it. The amendment does say congress shall do nothing to inhibit the free exercise of religion and that is why the supreme court has said that taxation is not allowed.

muriel_volestrangler

(101,337 posts)
43. Wrong; it says 'prohibiting', not 'inhibit'
Tue Feb 14, 2012, 02:05 PM
Feb 2012

and there is a profound difference between the two words. Really, if you're going to argue based on the wording of the amendment, you'd think you'd bother to look it up and check first.

former9thward

(32,046 posts)
44. Ohhh the typo police just gave me a ticket.
Tue Feb 14, 2012, 03:10 PM
Feb 2012

I am not arguing based on the wording. I am arguing based on what both liberals and conservatives on the Supreme Court have said those words mean. If you don't like those rulings, fine, but since there is consensus you will not get it changed the way you would like.

muriel_volestrangler

(101,337 posts)
45. You were arguing on the wording
Tue Feb 14, 2012, 03:32 PM
Feb 2012

You said it said 'inhibit', and then say "that is why the supreme court has said...".

muriel_volestrangler

(101,337 posts)
49. Facts? I'm the one who's had to point out to you, 3 times, what is and isn't in the amendment
Tue Feb 14, 2012, 04:13 PM
Feb 2012

and yet you were the one claiming the amendment would have to be changed to allow the taxation of churches. I only replied to you because of your fact-free assertion. You're doing a bang-up job of ignoring Zalatix's point too, I see.

former9thward

(32,046 posts)
50. I agree with the Walz decision of the Supreme Court directly on this issue.
Tue Feb 14, 2012, 04:27 PM
Feb 2012

They didn't agree that taxation of churches would be allowed by the wording of the Amendment. You don't agree with the consensus of the Court on this issue. Fine. Zalatix doesn't agree also. Fine. That is where we disagree. Don't try and insult me by saying I am not familiar with the wording of the amendment.

muriel_volestrangler

(101,337 posts)
55. The Walz decision was that tax exemption did not break the 1st Amendment
Tue Feb 14, 2012, 07:58 PM
Feb 2012

The case had been brought by someone saying that the New York tax exemption was unconstitutional, and should be ended; the decision was that it did not break the Establishment clause, so could be allowed to continue. I can see nothing in it saying that taxation of churches was not allowed; merely that exemption was allowed. Here's the decision: if you can quote where they "didn't agree that taxation of churches would be allowed by the wording of the Amendment", then point to it.

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=CASE&court=US&vol=397&page=664

former9thward

(32,046 posts)
57. Since you seem to think the SC would allow taxation if they had the right case
Tue Feb 14, 2012, 08:16 PM
Feb 2012

Please point to a SC decision which backs you up. Please point out someone in politics who agrees with you. Please point out a Legal scholar that agrees with you. Please point out a political party that agrees with you.

This is one issue where being part of the 1% isn't so good.

muriel_volestrangler

(101,337 posts)
61. You're moving the goalposts
Tue Feb 14, 2012, 08:55 PM
Feb 2012

You have been maintaining that the first amendment forbids taxation of churches; and then, when the wording of it is pointed out, you say that existing SC decisions have interpreted it that way. I'm saying that's not true. So far, you haven't been able to show evidence it's true.

Now you're asking me to find a case which has already decided that taxation is allowed. Since the federal government, and the states, have not recently tried to reimpose taxes on churches, we can't find such a judgement, so it's pointless in you asking me to find such a case (though I would say that, since the Walz judgement does not mention that churches must be exempt, it would have a chance of being found constitutional, as long as it didn't discriminate relative to non-religious groups).

American parties may not agree with me or the several other people on the thread who think a religious exemption is unjust. But that doesn't mean my position is 'not good'. I believe that the death penalty should be abolished in the USA, but the Democratic or Republican party won't touch that with a bargepole. It should be recognised that the exemption is there because most Americans are religious, and they want a tax break for their religion. It's not 'part of the Constitution'. It's pork.

former9thward

(32,046 posts)
64. Your analogy to the death penalty is poor.
Tue Feb 14, 2012, 09:09 PM
Feb 2012

There are countless politicians/government leaders who are against the death penalty. I asked for even one who favors taxation of churches. I asked for a legal scholar who backs it. If you read the Walz decision it is very clear the court would not allow taxation.

From Walz "“freedom from taxation for two centuries has not led to an established church or religion, and, on the contrary, has helped to guarantee the free exercise of all forms of religious belief.”

You may favor taxation but it is not constitutional. Nothing I say will change your mind of course. And no comment from the SC will change it either. You will maintain taxation is allowed under the Constitution without a shred of evidence.

muriel_volestrangler

(101,337 posts)
65. Your quote from Walz doesn't say say taxation is not constitutional
Tue Feb 14, 2012, 09:30 PM
Feb 2012

If you want a legal scholar who thought the taxation of churches would be constitutional, try the dissenting opinion in Walz.

former9thward

(32,046 posts)
67. As I said no comment from the SC will convince you.
Tue Feb 14, 2012, 10:02 PM
Feb 2012

Douglas, in his prime, was a good civil libertarian and a scholar but at the end his opinions became very erratic -- see his dissent in Morton where he said a tree had standing to sue in court. Justices on the court voted to send to the next term any decision where Douglas' vote would make a difference. I place his dissent in Walz in that category.

Yo_Mama

(8,303 posts)
54. You just negated your own argument.
Tue Feb 14, 2012, 07:25 PM
Feb 2012

Churches ARE treated the same way as other non-profit organizations, which is why you cannot pass a law taxing churches unless you also tax all those other non-profits. Greenpeace is a 501(c)(3) organization. The various Catholic groups are exempt under 501(c)(3) also.

It's because of the "free exercise" clause. The protection from taxation churches have is both traditional but legal because it is granted to all these other public-purpose groups. It would not be legal to remove it from a churchish organization engaging in the same activity as the other non-profit type organization because you can't debar religious people from rights non-religious people have, or debar non-religious people from rights religious people have.

Findlaw is your friend - try these two links:
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/constitution/amendment01/01.html#4

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/constitution/amendment01/04.html#1

muriel_volestrangler

(101,337 posts)
56. There is a difference; donations to Greenpeace are not tax-deductible
Tue Feb 14, 2012, 08:11 PM
Feb 2012

Greenpeace has to have a separate charity, which cannot lobby, for any tax-deductible donations. Churches, however, lobby freely, but still get special tax treatment.

Will I receive a tax receipt for my gift?
Greenpeace, Inc. is a non-profit, tax-exempt organization. Because of our effective work for new environmental laws and policies, contributions to Greenpeace are not tax-deductible.

Greenpeace is represented by two separate entities in the United States, Greenpeace, Inc. and Greenpeace Fund, Inc. While both organizations work on the same mission, they do so through different strategies. Greenpeace, Inc. is a campaigning and lobbying organization and is registered as a 501(c)(4) entity. Contributions to Greenpeace, Inc. are not tax deductible.

Greenpeace Fund, Inc. is a grant making organization that provides funding for Greenpeace's research, charitable and public education activities entities worldwide. Greenpeace Fund is registered as a 501(c)(3) entity and has limits on its ability to lobby.

http://www.greenpeace.org/usa/en/support-us/Frequently-asked-membership-questions/#tax
 

Zalatix

(8,994 posts)
46. Taxation curtails the free exercise of religion... how?
Tue Feb 14, 2012, 03:35 PM
Feb 2012

If paying taxes means I can't freely exercise my religion then paying taxes means I can't speak freely, either.

 

Goblinmonger

(22,340 posts)
63. I thought it was you
Tue Feb 14, 2012, 09:03 PM
Feb 2012

that said newspapers were different because of the profit thing. Seems the RCC makes a nice little profit.

former9thward

(32,046 posts)
66. It was another poster who brought up profit and newspapers.
Tue Feb 14, 2012, 09:42 PM
Feb 2012

Which I don't believe has anything to do with this issue. I'm sure the RCC takes in a lot of money and I'm sure the leaders live well. But they do not make a "profit" in the sense of a company. I don't happen to think it is Constitutional to tax churches no matter how their leaders are living.

muriel_volestrangler

(101,337 posts)
68. No, it was you who brought up profit and newspapers
Tue Feb 14, 2012, 10:18 PM
Feb 2012
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002305790#post38

I just mentioned newspapers; you said that didn't count because "Newspapers are run for the express purpose of making a profit".

former9thward

(32,046 posts)
69. You brought up newspapers
Tue Feb 14, 2012, 11:35 PM
Feb 2012

A topic completely unrelated to this thread. Newspapers are companies and companies exist to make a profit. They can be taxed just like any other company. So What? It has nothing to do with the subject.

muriel_volestrangler

(101,337 posts)
70. The 1st amendmnt includes freedom of the press, and no law prohibiting the free practice of religion
Wed Feb 15, 2012, 08:26 AM
Feb 2012

Thus if the subject is "does the 1st prevent any taxation of churches?", then a look at what happens with taxation of other organisations covered by it is relevant.

 

LanternWaste

(37,748 posts)
20. Spite is often...
Mon Feb 13, 2012, 03:13 PM
Feb 2012

"Spite is often the best a weak man can do"

Thurgood Marshall, as Solicitor General in June, 1965

 

Zalatix

(8,994 posts)
22. Often, but not always.
Mon Feb 13, 2012, 03:16 PM
Feb 2012

I'm now adding the removal of tax-exempt status for churches to my list of things to do, right alongside tariffs and ending corporate personhood... another big mistake the Supreme Court has made.

JVS

(61,935 posts)
13. I think your understanding is incorrect. And also before the "faith based initiatives"...
Mon Feb 13, 2012, 02:37 PM
Feb 2012

of the Bush administration, there wasn't subsidization. That's a separate issue.

Churches could also be tax free if they filed their paperwork as a social club. 501(c)7 instead of 501(c)3. And nobody expects social clubs to do squat for anyone.

Puzzledtraveller

(5,937 posts)
35. 1st amendment is pretty clear
Tue Feb 14, 2012, 10:09 AM
Feb 2012

The work around on this current issue is available, and even VP Biden appealed for one.

muriel_volestrangler

(101,337 posts)
37. It clearly doesn't mention tax at all
Tue Feb 14, 2012, 11:30 AM
Feb 2012

So, if you think it's 'clear', then that would seem to mean you think there should be no special treatment for religions. The amendment also talks about the freedom of the press, but that does not result in special tax rules for newspaper publishers.

quaker bill

(8,224 posts)
52. A problem, a consistent problem
Tue Feb 14, 2012, 06:28 PM
Feb 2012

The point of government and church being separate is that you never want the government of be concerned about church attendance and income. Government spends a great deal of time and tax dollars promoting and cutting deals for businesses that create jobs and tax revenue. I don't think you really want the Church standing in that line.

Yo_Mama

(8,303 posts)
53. It's based on a constitutional protection
Tue Feb 14, 2012, 07:09 PM
Feb 2012

And I find it hard to see how taxing churches is appropriate given the constitution and current federal law.

Under federal law, churches get tax exemptions under 501(c) rules:
http://www.irs.gov/charities/charitable/article/0,,id=96099,00.html

This is an important constitutional issue - government can't disadvantage churches compared to other charitable/public purpose nonprofit organizations, nor can it advantage churches.

Churches and other religious/charitable organizations are exempt from taxation if they are deemed to have an exempt purpose, which is not restricted to churches:

The exempt purposes set forth in section 501(c)(3) are charitable, religious, educational, scientific, literary, testing for public safety, fostering national or international amateur sports competition, and preventing cruelty to children or animals. The term charitable is used in its generally accepted legal sense and includes relief of the poor, the distressed, or the underprivileged; advancement of religion; advancement of education or science; erecting or maintaining public buildings, monuments, or works; lessening the burdens of government; lessening neighborhood tensions; eliminating prejudice and discrimination; defending human and civil rights secured by law; and combating community deterioration and juvenile delinquency.


Any organization has a right, without penalty, to appeal to the government for a redress of grievances. That right cannot be financially penalized under law because of that knotty difficulty known as the First Amendment:
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/constitution/amendment01/
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.


First Amendment rights are both individual and corporate (adhere when people act in a group). Congress could not pass a law saying a Catholic was debarred from petitioning his/her legislative representatives, or do the same thing to the Catholic Church. Nor could it do the same to one of the kazillion Harvard Foundations, etc.

If Congress passes a minimum wage law and fails to realize that this will cause a number of handicapped persons working under special legal provisions to lose their jobs, the organizations employing them have every right to appeal to Congress to reconsider (this is a real example). These organizations also have the right to appeal to the public on the issue and to all those using their facilities.

Anyway, here is a summary from the first link above to Findlaw about the case history on religious exemptions:
Tax Exemptions of Religious Property .--Every State and the District of Columbia provide for tax exemptions for religious institutions, and the history of such exemptions goes back to the time of our establishment as a polity. The only expression by a Supreme Court Justice prior to 1970 was by Justice Brennan, who deemed tax exemptions constitutional because the benefit conferred was incidental to the religious character of the institutions concerned. 131 Then, in 1970, a nearly unanimous Court sustained a state exemption from real or personal property taxation of ''property used exclusively for religious, educational or charitable purposes'' owned by a corporation or association which was conducted exclusively for one or more of these purposes and did not operate for profit. 132 The first prong of a two-prong argument saw the Court adopting Justice Brennan's rationale. Using the secular purpose and effect test, Chief Justice Burger noted that the purpose of the exemption was not to single out churches for special favor; instead, the exemption applied to a broad category of associations having many common features and all dedicated to social betterment. Thus, churches as well as museums, hospitals, libraries, charitable organizations, professional associations, and the like, all non-profit, and all having a beneficial and stabilizing influence in community life, were to be encouraged by being treated specially in the tax laws. The primary effect of the exemptions was not to aid religion; the primary effect was secular and any assistance to religion was merely incidental. 133

For the second prong, the Court created a new test, the entanglement test, 134 by which to judge the program. There was some entanglement whether there were exemptions or not, Chief Justice Burger continued, but with exemptions there was minimal involvement. But termination of exemptions would deeply involve government in the internal affairs of religious bodies, because evaluation of religious properties for tax purposes would be required and there would be tax liens and foreclosures and litigation concerning such matters. 135






muriel_volestrangler

(101,337 posts)
62. And why should 'advancement of religion' be considered a charitable purpose?
Tue Feb 14, 2012, 09:02 PM
Feb 2012

That's the fundamental argument, I think. Advancement of political philosophies doesn't get exemption. It should only be the actual charitable work (ie work that benefits people) that should qualify.

I believe that 'second prong' is a cop-out - saying that ending exemptions would be complicated is not a good reason not to do it. If someone has set up an intricate tax evasion scheme, while posing as a church, you wouldn't just say "investigating it means involvement in church affairs - we must forget it".

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