U.S. charges Snowden with espionage

[nadinbrzezinski]

Federal prosecutors have filed a sealed criminal complaint against Edward Snowden, the former National Security Agency contractor who leaked a trove of documents about top-secret surveillance programs, and the United States has asked Hong Kong to detain him on a provisional arrest warrant, according to U.S. officials.

Snowden was charged with espionage, theft and conversion of government property, the officials said.


The complaint was filed in the Eastern District of Virginia, a jurisdiction where Snowden’s former employer, Booz Allen Hamilton, is headquartered, and a district with a long track record in prosecuting cases with national security implications.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/us-charges-snowden-with-espionage/2013/06/21/507497d8-dab1-11e2-a016-92547bf094cc_story.html

Not that I am particularly shocked or surprised. Realize this will complicate any extradition request.

[The Magistrate]

1. His Actions Seem To Fit The Statute, Ma'am

[nadinbrzezinski]

2. It's so much beyond him, but that's ok

Have an excellent day, I will not answer any further posts from you on this thread.

[FSogol]

6. LOL, it is pretty scary when someone politely disagrees with you.

[MNBrewer]

10. Let's not pretend "The Magistrate" politely does anything.

his shtick is transparent passive aggression.

[bobduca]

72. schtick distilled

Sir, I hereby formally side with the status quo, in perpetuity, ad nauseum. and a plethora of other exorbitant utterances in excess of 50 cents.

Good Day, Sir. GOOD DAY!

[MNBrewer]

73. Coldly calculated, at that.

[DCBob]

45. How on earth did the Magistrate offend you with those simple truthful words?

[MNBrewer]

74. truthful?

which of those words, if even single word, was truthful?

[reusrename]

75. Perhaps because he speaks out of both sides of his mouth.

View this subthread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023028691#post16

Maybe this is not doublethink.

I cannott make honest sense of it, not when combined with his opening response to the OP of this thread that sounds like approval.

[reusrename]

70. He was charged with theft of government property.

Is this a case that should be tried in a secret court?

A property case?





http://rt.com/usa/snowden-charged-espionage-sealed-092/

edited>>> to add copy of indictment

[msanthrope]

84. It's in the rocket docket. How is that secret? nt

[truedelphi]

89. Yes, that way any of us interested in knowing about any of this

Can probably be tried as co-conspirators, if we find out any of this the government doesn't want us to know.

It is clearly time for all Americans to dis-connect from the internet, as right now the internet could lead us to The Guardian, where everything Snowden made available will be published.

[DevonRex]

94. List of laws involving national security. Please note the ones he's

Charged (so far) with breaking. For your convenience - http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Et+Seq.

http://www.justice.gov/usao/eousa/foia_reading_room/usam/title9/90mcrm.htm#9-90.020

Criminal provisions affecting, involving, or relating to the national security are:
2 U.S.C. § 192 (Contempts of Congress Related to National Security)

8 U.S.C. § 1185(b) (Travel Controls of Citizens)

18 U.S.C. § 219 et seq. (Officers and Employees of the United States Acting as Foreign Agents)

18 U.S.C. § 791 et seq. (Espionage; Unauthorized Disclosure of Classified Information)

18 U.S.C. § 951 et seq. (Neutrality Laws)

18 U.S.C. § 1030(a)(1) (Computer Espionage)

18 U.S.C. § 1542 et seq. (Passport Violations Related to National Security)

18 U.S.C. § 1924 (Unauthorized Removal and Retention of Classified Documents or Material)

18 U.S.C. § 1831 (Economic Espionage)

18 U.S.C. § 2151 et seq. (Sabotage)

18 U.S.C. § 2381 et seq. (Treason, Sedition and Subversive Activities)

22 U.S.C. § 611 et seq. (Foreign Agents Registration)

22 U.S.C. § 2778 (Arms Export Control Act)

42 U.S.C. § 2274 to 2278, 2284, and other Atomic Energy Violations that Affect National Security (Atomic Energy Act)

50 U.S.C. § 421 (Intelligence Identities Protection Act)

50 U.S.C. § 782 et seq. (Communication of Classified Information by Government Officer or Employee)

50 U.S.C. § 851 et seq. (Registration of Person Who Has Knowledge Concerning Espionage Activities)

50 U.S.C. § 1701 et seq. (International Emergency Economic Powers Act)

50 U.S.C. § 2401 et seq. (Export Administration Act)

50 U.S.C. App. § 5(b) (Trading With the Enemy Act)

Further readinghttp://www.justice.gov/usao/eousa/foia_reading_room/usam/title9/90mcrm.htm#9-90.200

[ProSense]

3. From the link:

By filing a criminal complaint, prosecutors have a legal basis to make the request of the authorities in Hong Kong. Prosecutors now have 60 days to file an indictment, probably also under seal, and can then move to have Snowden extradited from Hong Kong for trial in the United States.

[Tx4obama]

4. Article excerpt from yesterday, below

Scenarios for Snowden: Escape, arrest, asylum

-snip-

Scenario 5: U.S. issues an arrest warrant and he's detained

This could be the worst case scenario for Snowden. If the U.S. issues a surrender warrant, Snowden could be detained by authorities in Hong Kong, after first being given the go-ahead by the territory's chief executive to arrest him.

Once detained, Young said Snowden would likely appear in an open court where a magistrate would decide whether there is enough evidence to commit him to trial.

Based on that decision, Hong Kong's chief executive would then decide whether to approve the surrender order and send Snowden back to the U.S.

Under Hong Kong law, the surrender order could be blocked if it appears that the offense is of a political nature or if the alleged offender might be punished on the basis of his or her political opinions.

However, other considerations would be the 1996 treaty between the U.N. and Hong Kong which takes precedence over the relevant law and includes a clause on "offenses involving the unlawful use of computers," Young said.

-snip-

http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/20/world/asia/snowden-scenarios-hong-kong/index.html

[ceonupe]

47. What you mean Clinton era global government

What you mean Clinton era global government initiatives setup primarily to protect corporate business interests could also be used to speed up his extradition.


"Crimes committed/involving using computer......"

It's gonna be really funny to watch everyone twist themselves in Knots here when Hillary runs in 2016. (Way less progressive than even Obama, acknowledged corporatist, DLC ect)

[flamingdem]

97. Sounds like he'll be US bound

except that they might not find him!

[Rex]

5. Now we get to see how much the Chinese think he is worth.

nt.

[MNBrewer]

7. Obama's amazing Transparent Surveillance State Machine rolls on!

Good thing he's better than a Republican

[SidDithers]

11. Thanks, Obama...

Sid

[MNBrewer]

13. Can always count on you to say

nothing of importance or substance. Thanks Sid.

[cpwm17]

15. Yep

[SidDithers]

25. Just like we can count on anti-Obama snark from you...

Over and over and over.

Sid

[Tarheel_Dem]

49. +1000.

[MNBrewer]

68. When he or his administration gets something right, I comment

The last thing I remember is his having "evolved" on the issue of Marriage Equality, I think.

[dkf]

8. Complicate in a good way or a bad way?

[nadinbrzezinski]

9. Bad way for the US

Claims of political persecution are now very real.

[dkf]

26. Someone made a point that the espionage charge is due to disclosing Chinese hack attacks to a

Hong Kong paper. Did he do that to trigger the type of charge that he could use their loopholes for?

Maybe Snowden is the true chess master.

[nadinbrzezinski]

35. Might, I don't know.

Of course the Chinese (like the Russians) laughed. We spy on them, they spy on us...it's like this is news?

[dkf]

37. And spying on a university. Geez.

[nadinbrzezinski]

40. They do as well.

Chinese industrial espionage is just matter of course.

This is why the only ones not to show any outrage are the Chinese.

[Monkie]

67. the way i see it a newspaper is a newspaper

nobody is complaining that the wapo is a organ of the US government, so how can they claim the same about the honk kong paper, and since its the hong kong authorities which will first judge the US charges i dont see how that will fly.
he has a clear claim under that political exception from what i see.

[Cali_Democrat]

27. OP is completely unfamiliar with this, which is not surprising.

The US can't even make an extradition request until he's charged with a crime in the United States.

[dkf]

29. Hasn't he been charged?

[Cali_Democrat]

31. This is a sealed criminal complaint...

A sealed indictment will follow and then the extradition request will be made.

[dkf]

41. Sealed criminal compliant...still all this damned secrecy.

Could Snowden be making his point more clearly? This entire process is BS.

[Cali_Democrat]

44. WOW. You don't know how common this is in federal cases, do you?

Sometimes it really feels like nobody here knows anything about our legal process.

A sealed complaint or indictment happens in Federal cases all the time and the indictment is unsealed once the person is in custody, but the existence of the indictment is disclosed once a warrant for arrest is issued.

Good lord.

[dkf]

58. Well I hope we never see it then.

And no I'm not versed in all the little tricks of legalese.

[OilemFirchen]

69. "the little tricks of legalese"

Like due process and all that wonky shit.

[dkf]

71. Unfortunately I am learning about due process thanks to govt overreach

Not the best way to get a civics lesson.

[OilemFirchen]

77. You could've started at the library.

Or this new-fangled Googly thing.

You might have learned that sealed federal indictments are quite common, and even pre-date our Kenyan Overlord:

http://www.fjc.gov/public/pdf.nsf/lookup/sealcafc.pdf/$file/sealcafc.pdf

[dkf]

83. But they didn't have to, did they?

Maybe made a small gesture towards transparency?

[OilemFirchen]

85. Didn't have to what?

Seal it or unseal it?

FTR, this is SOP.

[dkf]

90. Seal it.

When you transgress, you must over compensate.

[Sheepshank]

86. makes me laugh that those on DU continually wishing to string up Obama....

... are so quick to pounce on any and every media released statement of otherwise commonly understood processes.

Once I'm done laughing at these yahoos, their predictable act of trying to make it out to be another nepharious, secret, nontransparent Obama action is nothing more than eyeroll worthy..*sigh*

[MNBrewer]

12. The good news for Snowden is

that a drone strike against him in Hong Kong would be more problematic for the US Government and more difficult to cover up than it woud be in Los Angeles, for example.

[Rex]

19. Or Pakistan.

nt.

[Catherina]

32. +1 n/t

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

14. Can it ever be a crime to report wrong-doing by gov?

I say, only in a totalitarian state.

Time for the SCOTUS to answer that question, once and for all.

That would be the strongest whistle blower law a state could ever make.

[nadinbrzezinski]

17. Under US law? Yes

Ask the previous whistleblowers that went through channels.

They charged them under the same exact statue and destroyed their lives

Yup, we are...in case you wonder.

[avaistheone1]

22. Another poster explained to me it is now unethical to report unethical behavior in government

[nadinbrzezinski]

30. Yup, give me a sec, and will give you link

After you read that article...it is scary



Read more here: http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2013/06/20/194513/obamas-crackdown-views-leaks-as.html#storylink=cpy

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

39. Right, but it hasn't been addressed by the SCOTUS

The time has come for them to step up.

That would be the best whistle-blower law a state could have.

[nadinbrzezinski]

42. We first need a case.

That is appealed. At this point I doubt the present court will take it.

We are not in a happy place.

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

51. State vs Edward Snowden

Need to fight for it sure, but there it is.

[nadinbrzezinski]

52. Yeah, but the court needs to take it

After all appeals. I have my doubts the Roberts court will.

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

78. Agreed but at least it will remove any remaining doubt

That we are living under a totalitarian system.

[nadinbrzezinski]

79. True

[Tx4obama]

20. You are ignoring the fact that he STOLE classified government documents. n/t

[ProSense]

55. "wrong-doing"?

Greenwald claims it was to spark a debate. Since then, he has been trying to create the impression that there is potential for wrong-doing, but potential isn't an actual crime.

This was one of the stupidest reasons to leak classified information. The debate doesn't change the fact that he committed a crime.

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

76. Wrong

Those were Mr. Snowden's claims.

And so far they have, and not only DU (as we are often way ahead of the MS) but around the world. Therefore he has been very prescient on that front.

And, the question remains, should it be considered a crime to expose gov wrong doing against the American people?

Time for the SCOTUS to weigh in, was it gov wrong-doing, and then, how can exposing it be a crime, except in a totalitarian state.

[davidn3600]

16. "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act."

[nadinbrzezinski]

18. Yup

[Tx4obama]

21. 'Saying something' and STEALING classified government documents are two totally different things.

Snowden committed a criminal act.

[WillyT]

28. No... Sometimes Merely Saying Something Is A Criminal Act... Even For Sitting U.S. Senators...

DULink: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023063880

[nadinbrzezinski]

36. You might want to read this

To see how far down the rabbit hole we've gone.




Read more here: http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2013/06/20/194513/obamas-crackdown-views-leaks-as.html#storylink=cpy

I will repeat this...and not answer any more posts on this thread from you...this stopped being about Snowden a while ago.

You might want to read Phillip K Dick's Majority Report, he was also a prophet.

[Monkie]

92. so you see a house on fire with a baby inside, but the door is locked

some people act, some say its a criminal act...

[Catherina]

46. Yep

and
History is on the side of those who seek to reveal the truth, not on the side of those who seek to conceal it -- Daniel Elsberg

[Cali_Democrat]

23. "Realize this will complicate any extradition request"

You don't know what you're talking about. The US can't even make an extradition request until they charge him.

[ProSense]

34. LOL! n/t

[SidDithers]

59. Crunchy...

Sid

[cpwm17]

24. Pay back's a bitch

The US Government is spying on the American people, so it does seem fair that the American public can spy right back. In fact, it should be our obligation.

They are suppose to work for us. It is our country.

[Vinnie From Indy]

33. You can bet that the trial, if it occurs, will be a closed affair

The very last thing the government wants is Snowden on the stand recounting all the illegal things it does. You can bank on that!

[nadinbrzezinski]

38. Well by the time they get to trial...

Information will be so damn stale.

[Catherina]

54. It will be closed before it could even start

Asked what Edward Snowden should expect to happen to him, William Binney, answered, "first tortured, then maybe even rendered and tortured and then incarcerated and then tried and incarcerated or even executed." Interesting that this is what a whistleblower, former Senior level Director at NSA, thinks the U.S. government will do to a citizen.

William Binney is a former highly placed intelligence official with the United States National Security Agency (NSA)[1] turned whistleblower who resigned on October 31, 2001, after more than 30 years with the agency. He was a high-profile critic of his former employers during the George W. Bush administration, and was the subject of FBI investigations, including a raid on his home in 2007.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Binney_%28U.S._intelligence_official%29

[DCBob]

43. Its a clear case of espionage.. even it he didn't realize it or intend it.

There were other options if he wanted to do this legally.

[nadinbrzezinski]

48. You mean the same ones that

Destroyed, legally mind you, the lives of Drake (charged under espionage, charges were dropped after five years, his life pretty much destroyed) Bibbey and others? It's a fact, the government has gone to war against any and all whistleblowers.

I am sure if the process worked as intended when Frank went to the IG, Snowden would have considered that route.

Don't bother...I am really up to here with partisans.

[davidn3600]

50. How?

What exactly could he have done to legally expose the government willingly violating the constitution? Tell his superior? Tell the Congress who was going along with it?

His whole point is he wanted the people to know what their government is doing.

[DCBob]

57. He could have taken it to someone like Bernie Sanders...

and then used the whistleblower protection act.

[nadinbrzezinski]

61. Two links

http://www.whistleblower.org/program-areas/homeland-security-a-human-rights/surveillance/nsa-whistleblowers-bill-binney-a-j-kirk-wiebe

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Andrews_Drake

Drake took it to us senators.

I rest my case

[DCBob]

64. I think these are not comparable cases.

Snowden's complaint is clearly legitimate.

[nadinbrzezinski]

65. Drake was as well until it wasn't

Regardless to the irritation of some...this is so much beyond one man, it's not even funny. I mean the far reaching beyond us borders.

I hope The Guardian also runs articles on Canadian, New Zealand and Australian intel services and their connections with the Orwellian NSA system. It's not about terrorism, but internal revolts and keeping the rubes in place. Their articles on our junior partner in the UK were excellent.

Have an excellent day.

[FarCenter]

53. Wikileaks has arranged a plane ready to fly him to Iceland.

On the other hand, it appears that Iceland will not consider his request for asylum until he is in Iceland.

So there's a catch.

UPDATE: the South China Morning Post now has a headline up "Offer to fly Edward Snowden to Iceland denied by company's owner".

[nadinbrzezinski]

56. Hong Kong tends to not do extraditions

On overtly political cases either.

So he chose well. I think.

[FarCenter]

60. One possibility is that Hong Kong takes him into custody awaiting the outcome of extradition process

Some Hong Kong legal watchers though, have wondered if Snowden’s fleeing to Hong Kong was a better choice than it might seem at first blush. Apparently, the High Court in the quasi-city-state has issued an order requiring the government to create a new procedure to consider asylum applications. Until such a procedure is achieved, asylum seekers can ostensibly stay indefinitely.

"If it comes to the point where the US does issue a warrant on Snowden, and then passes it over to the Hong Kong authorities, and he decides to fight it, at this point it would be a court case," Nicholas Bequelin of Human Rights Watch told GlobalPost earlier this month. "And it can be a long court case, going up to the court of final appeals."

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/06/united-states-charges-snowden-with-espionage-asks-hong-kong-to-arrest-him/

That might take a very long time. All the governments concerned might find that an acceptable interim solution.

[nadinbrzezinski]

63. We will see

He's done what he needed to do, and now it is no longer about him.

[msanthrope]

66. He won't make it to Iceland. nt

[lamp_shade]

62. Good.

[JDPriestly]

80. So much for the national conversation about the spying.

Had the Obama administration come forward about their spying long ago and explained more details, Snowden would not have had a story to tell.

We want transparent government. We want honest government.

Enough with the sneaks. I'm pretty sick of that kind of arrogance in the White House.

[nadinbrzezinski]

81. They are trying to stop it

I don't think it will...but will see.

[Sheepshank]

82. Did Snowden receive any compensation for the info he released...from anyone?

I suppose I'm most interested if he received any monies from The Chinese Government.

[Monkie]

91. if he wanted money why leak in public, your question makes no sense?

he said this himself but still, if you had a secret worth lots of money, do you go blab about it to the world?
or find someone willing to pay you lots of money and then try to get out as quietly as you can?
he could of sold the info and then just waited a year or two and quit his NSA job and be rich and unknown.
no, makes no sense to me..

[Sheepshank]

100. I can think of at least two responses

1. He had the information that could embarass the USA on the world stage
2. We, the public don't truly know the breadth and width of al of the information he had taken. There may easily be some "items for sale". The reason for this second item: that if every scrap of info he had has been made public, then why meet with Chinese officials?

Your response, giving Snowden every noble personality trait doesn't make sense either.

[Monkie]

101. i lost you at i can think

i tried comprehending your point in relation to what i said but i just dont get it.
so he is a chinese agent being paid to embarrass the US on the world stage?
and hes keeping some "items for sale" for extra profit.
and your a qualified psychologist as well?

so hes a american hating profiteer out to destroy the reputation of the US with certain mysterious personality traits that make that he is not noble?

interesting...
he seems so complex when you put it like this.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

87. Tyrants have strong thumbs..weak fingers.

[Thinkingabout]

88. His actions were terribly misplaced, the cause will be exposed and those involved

Just might have to answer for any wrongs they have committed. This is not about liberty and freedom but about theft of classified information by someone who had security clearance. I think those who are sympathetic to the cause should be excluded from security clearance and observed for further possible action of this nature. He is a criminal not a hero. As some have posted here, his work is done and so what any action taken.

[nadinbrzezinski]

93. You are confusing, pretty adroitly I must say,

Sympathy for Snowden with liberty freedom and all that. Apparently you got no problem with warrantless tapping of your personal data by the state. Having grown in a dictablanda I could tell you the problem with that, but in your case...I suspect you need to live through it. Then maybe you will get it. And maybe is giving you credit.

Have a good day.

[yodermon]

95. So what Snowden reported *wasn't* Bullshit. Otherwise why bother charging him? n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

96. Nope...talking points need revision

[DCBob]

98. Snowden took real documents from a NSA server and shared them with unauthorized people.

That part has never been questioned. The bullshit was the embellishments of his capabilities.

[Tx4obama]

99. The reason to charge him is because he committed several felonies.

18 USC 641 Theft of property and records

18 USC 793 Gathering, transmitting or losing defense information

18 USC 798 Disclosure of classified information

[Harmony Blue]

102. Welcome to bizzaro world

where left is right and up is down.

[nadinbrzezinski]

103. Well, per MSNBC Snowden is going to Ecuador to seek political asylum