If drugs remain illegal - this is what you get (WARNING: Extremely graphic pic)

[Taverner]

This is a krokodil user's arm. Because heroin is in short supply in Russia, unethical dealers have been turning codeine into morphine and selling that. As a result of the impurities in krokodil (hydrochloric acid is one of them) the drug will eat your flesh from the inside out. In America, you do drugs. In Russia, drugs do YOU.

But if heroin were legal, and available OTC, there would be no krokodil. There would be no meth that is so toxic handling it requires a hazmat suit. There would be far fewer ODs, as the user would know EXACTLY what dose they were taking.

Still not convinced?

[midnight]

1. Yikes...

The black market drugs are more of a danger than the danger for outlawing them....

[meegbear]

2. Do you have a link?

I'd like to send this article to an associate of mine.

Thanks.

[redqueen]

9. Just google "krokodil"

lots and lots of stuff out there about this cheaper alternative to heroin.

[Brickbat]

3. Gah, Russia just makes me sad.

[Cali_Democrat]

4. YIKES!!!

[HappyMe]

5. Omg!

Horrifying.

[kittykitty]

6. I wonder if they publicize this in Russia? Show these as public service announcements?

Probably not.

[Upton]

7. Anybody understand Russian?

#!

[Lionessa]

8. Though I agree with your assessment of the legatilities, etc., these drugs

are not any more legal here than there. Is there some evidence that they are simply more successful than we are in stopping the influx of heroin? Do you have any links that might please help me to understand the fuller context of your images and the differences between the two countries' wars on drugs.

[librechik]

10. photoshop?

I am not liking these graphic photos. They seem shopped to me.

[redqueen]

11. Sadly, they aren't.

There's a lot of stuff out there about this drug. It is truly horrifying.

[librechik]

13. oh my.

brain exploding

[lapislzi]

14. It's worth noting that codeine is OTC in Russia and several other countries.

It is cheap to make and offers a high markup to the pharmacies that sell it...and turn a blind eye to what it's being used for.

There's been no action taken in Russia or elsewhere to regulate the sale of this stuff.

Also, rehab and detox services are virtually nonexistent in Russia. Existing recovery facilities are largely operated by religious organizations. The relapse rate is high, because the withdrawal is apparently hideously painful.

Average lifespan of a habitual krokodil user: 1 - 2 years.

This is horrifying and sad...and it is only a matter of time before this trickles out to the rest of Europe and beyond.

[Spider Jerusalem]

29. That's a slippery slope argument for regulating OTC codeine though.

Codeine in combination with aspirin, ibuprofen, or acetaminophen is OTC in the UK, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand among other countries, and none of them has a problem similar to this one. That's pretty similar to the argument for regulation of OTC pseudoephedrine, because you can use it to make methamphetamines. And that's worked splendidly to curtail the meth trade in the US, hasn't it? Oh, no...that's right, it hasn't.

[lapislzi]

38. Oh, I quite agree.

OTC codeine is not the problem any more than OTC pseudoephedrine. I lived in South Africa for many years, and I managed to avoid a dependence on codeine.

I was just pointing out the conditions that can lead to these desperate and dangerous situations. The problem appears concentrated in low-hope, economically depressed areas...it's a damned shame. And maybe if they handed out free methadone or heroin and clean needles, we wouldn't see youngsters losing their limbs.

It's sad that people are so desperate that this would actually seem an attractive alternative.

[Newest Reality]

12. That is sad and

gruesome, and those folks will never get that flesh back, so they are also debilitated and scared deeply for life, physically and mentally.

Yet another underscore about the results of the profit-oriented, consciousness-controlling, prison profiting war on "some" drugs.

Oh, save the children. Some drugs are a scourge on our noble society, etc., etc. The history of the drugs in question does not support the conspiratorial propaganda behind the illegality of certain substances.

So, the list of tragedies and broken lives from drugs being illegal, (and not just the drugs themselves) grows and grows, and yet, the facade is still maintained and Draconian laws are in effect.

It is good to see more people understanding this predicament and becoming less support of the MIC and the benefits it gets from drug laws and its endless, futile war.

[Taverner]

17. +100

[FrodosPet]

22. So, if Krokodil is legal it will be safe?

Or is it that if heroin were not only legal, but affordable, people would leave krokodil alone?

And who exactly would produce and distribute legal heroin, meth, crack cocaine, etc.? Private industry or a government agency? Would the government still be going after black marketers, or would the price be so cheap and readily available, perhaps even subsidized by public funds, that there would be no underground market?

And what do we do about the people earning their living in the illegal drugs trade? Do we offer them a level of unemployment compensation high enough that they are not tempted to go into other criminal activities, such as robbery, kidnapping, gun running, etc? I might be wrong, but I would think there are not many people making $500 to $1000 a day for sitting around Playstation, collecting money, and handing a few baggies out the window would be enthused about sweating or freezing their ass off while risking their lives on the side of a busy road shoveling gravel and sand until they are bone tired and sore. If they have any kind of moral compass and honest pride, they may do it, but many others will find some other source of easy money.

[backscatter712]

110. The workable solution is methadone clinics.

Methadone clinics work. Methadone's safe, helps addicts deal with withdrawal, is administered under the watchful eye of medical professionals, with sterile needles, and is made in pharmaceutical facilities, so nobody ends up with their flesh falling off.

Methadone is a great tool for getting addicts functional enough that they can get off the streets, find work, get a place to live, kick their addictions, and function in society.

[MichaelMcGuire]

116. I thought methadone was just as bad, and its a green like syrup which rots the teeth.

What is methadone?

Methadone is a long-acting synthetic painkiller that mimics the effects of heroin, but is less addictive. It is widely used as a substitute for patients who are attempting to combat addiction to heroin.

Like heroin, it produces feelings of euphoria and sedation, but to a lesser degree. The drug is usually provided to addicts under the supervision of a specially trained pharmacist or healthcare professional. It comes in the form of a green liquid.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/health/emotional_health/addictions/methadone.shtml

[backscatter712]

138. Methadone is used to treat addiction in that it eases withdrawal symptoms...

but it doesn't produce as much of a euphoric high as heroin. Don't get me wrong - some people still get addicted to methadone, but getting methadone from a clinic to satisfy an addiction is a superior alternative to injecting poison that makes your flesh fall off.

But I'll say it again. Methdone clinics work. They reduce risky behaviors like use of dirty needles, they reduce crime, they reduce illicit opiate use.

Just for some quick evidence, here's an NIH study abstract I googled.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9684390

[MichaelMcGuire]

160. agreed althou it not without its problems

[backscatter712]

162. Fair enough.

Maybe for some addicts, it would be appropriate to give them medical-grade heroin in an injection clinic, to keep them functional and give them an alternative to Krokodil...

[MichaelMcGuire]

166. Just to be clear when I meant "just as bad" I mean heroin

That shit in the op is news to me.

[Taverner]

123. No, if pharm grade HEROIN and MORPHINE are legal, krokodil goes away

Why shoot that shit when you can shoot the exact same drug, minus the hydrochloric acid and drain cleaner?

[backscatter712]

141. I prefer methadone as a harm-reduction solution.

The goal is harm reduction.

Let's face it. Opiates are harmful. The question is what the best strategy is to minimize the harm. Banning it is a bad solution, we all know why. Heroin's such a powerful drug that having it on drugstore shelves for anyone to buy will result in a bunch of OD deaths.

But methadone clinics have a proven track record of helping people deal with their addictions, limiting risky behavior like sharing needles or shooting up with Krokodil, reducing crime and reducing opiate use.

[Taverner]

145. But methadone will not get the user "high"

And being that is what they seek, very few will turn to Methadone, with its drug tests and regulations

[backscatter712]

149. After a while of building tolerance, heroin won't get you high either.

The addict ends up shooting up just to keep the withdrawal pain away.

At that point, your entire life revolves around getting your next fix.

Then it's time to make a decision. Jump through the methadone clinic hoops and get functional, or continue shooting up with dirty needles, engaging in prostitution and stealing shit to pay for the next fix.

Injection clinics where people can get measured doses of clean heroin under medical supervision is something I would also support.

[lapislzi]

168. The krokodil prototype was synthesized in a lab

in the 1930s. As such, it is an extremely potent narcotic painkiller, up to 8x stronger than morphine. It's short-acting, and probably has some clinical efficacy.

The problem is not that the drug makes your flesh fall off. It's the method used to synthesize the drug in a home kitchen that make it so very, very toxic. As I understand it, to create it, you need to cook it up in a similar manner to the way you cook meth from other substances and catalysts. In the case of krokodil, these include hydrochloric acid, iodine, and red phosphorus from matches. Common sense would suggest to the person in his right mind that injecting hydrochloric acid into yourself is not a very good idea.

Now, let's throw unsanitary conditions into the mix and see how long your flesh stays on your body. I agree with the posters who present the methadone solution.

[backscatter712]

163. The question is whether it's the desomorphine itself that's causing the damage...

or the adulterants that are mixed with it when it's made meth-cook style.

One advantage of decriminalization with the option of either having injection clinics where addictive drugs are administered under medical supervision, or as some advocate, making them available on drugstore shelves, is that the stuff made available that way is medical grade, so you're not injecting red phosphorus or gasoline in your veins...

That's one of the reasons why I favor the injection-clinic approach.

[lapislzi]

169. Darn, ya beat me to it.

Just said the same thing downthread. Also, krokodil is very short-acting, so the addict's life becomes an endless cycle of rounding up ingredients, cooking them up, shooting up, lather, rinse, repeat. No wonder the average life expectancy of a user is about 18 months.

[polly7]

177. Yes,

I was just reading this.

"Unlike heroin, where the hit can last for several hours, a krokodil high only lasts between 90 minutes and two hours, says Zhenya. Given that the "cooking" process takes at least half an hour, being a krokodil addict is basically a full-time job.

"I remember one day, we cooked for three days straight," says one of Zhenya's friends. "You don't sleep much when you're on krokodil, as you need to wake up every couple of hours for another hit. At the time we were cooking it at our place, and loads of people came round and pitched in. For three days we just kept on making it. By the end, we all staggered out yellow, exhausted and stinking of iodine."

Krokodil: The drug that eats junkies

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/krokodil-the-drug-that-eats-junkies-2300787.html

What a horrible drug.

[lapislzi]

171. You could argue (I won't) that krokodil is the evil stepchild of a legal drug.

You can't apply U.S.-centric drug and prison theories to Russia. It's a very different place, although what you could argue is that the level of hopelessness and desperation of poor, rural, un- or underemployed youth is comparable.

How desperate, how miserable, how fucked up do you have to be to believe that shooting up with poison is better than the life you have?

There are many other industrialized nations where codeine is available over the counter. Krokodil hasn't made significant inroads into many of them, although it's creeping into Europe by degrees. I would argue that the presence of a social safety net in many European countries would make this type of drug abuse less attractive, and easier to treat. I don't have statistics to back up my hunch, though.

In Russia, there's nowhere even to warehouse the drug criminals. They're left to slow suicide, or, if they're lucky, they find their way to rehab facilities operated almost exclusively by fundamentalist churches.

[libtodeath]

15. I hope

one day we will get sane in this country and stop the drug war nonsense.
Money better off spent on rehibilitation or safe and controled usage.

[usregimechange]

16. Where did that come from? Are you suggesting they make heroin legal in response?

What a illogical conclusion and ridiculous suggestion.

[Taverner]

18. Yes, yes I am

Any argument against legalization can be easily countered by the fact that any illegal drug is readily available in any city in the US

[usregimechange]

25. Compared to what? If you make it legal no one will do it, like alcohol or tobacco?

[patrice]

23. Are you over-simplifying legalization, perhaps? The taxes alone could fund authentic

remediation for addicts, so that they can learn, like the rest of us, how they can live around this stuff and remain in control of their lives, governing themselves, not needing it the way others do who can get anything they want, but don't because they are not vulnerable to it.

Legalization could be a route to authentic remediation for those who want it.

[usregimechange]

26. We aren't talking about cannabis here, legalizing something like that would have major...

consequences for public safety.

[patrice]

32. I believe OP is about other types of legalization. And the word "addiction" does not apply to

cannabis, so I'm not sure why you would think my post was exclusively about that.

You know what? If words, for example "legalization", didn't apply to more than one thing, for example applying only to cannabis, they/words wouldn't work at all.

[patrice]

33. And if you're referring to "psychological addiction" well, then, the fact that it IS psychological

and not, therefore, chemical, means that it can be attached to anything, not exclusively cannabis, and if a psychological addiction does happen to become attached to cannabis, that is a matter of idiosyncratic circumstance, not inherent to the substance itself, but rather to traits of the person & situations that comprise his/her life.

[SOS]

144. We could adopt the Swiss model

Registered addicts are supplied with pure heroin and clean needles on a daily basis.
This program has been a resounding success.

Legalizing heroin does not necessarily mean that it would be sold alongside Budweiser
and Marlboro in the corner deli.

But a program of registering and supplying addicts does work.

[backscatter712]

150. I would support this.

The Swiss have also tested injection clinics, where addicts can obtain clean heroin, or cocaine, shoot up in an environment where they can be watched so they don't die of an overdose, and where the police won't bother them.

And you get people who are addicted, who previously were on the streets, committing crimes to get their next fix, who become functional, get a job and a place to live.

I can certainly support this.

[Webster Green]

35. Not illogical or ridiculous at all.

It's called harm reduction. Legalization worked well in Portugal. Drug use is down. The most dangerous thing about the popular drugs is the stupid laws against them.

Heroin is not really that dangerous, if you know what dose you are getting. It is a drag if you get a habit and then run out though.

[Sparkly]

41. "Heroin is not really that dangerous."

Theoretically, heroin supposedly doesn't cause all that much organ damage, relatively speaking at least -- so goes the common wisdom. I don't know about that.

What I do know is that it destroys lives. It's worse than a "drag" to "get a habit," because it's not a habit -- it's an addiction and a lethal disease.

Maybe people tend to die long before the drug's effect on their organs can show up, in numbers that can't be measured statistically. In any case, many die.

And it's not just about dosage, as if there were a level of heroin maintenance that makes it manageable. Nor is it used socially -- not for long.

I think it should be decriminalized, at the very least, so there we agree.

[LynneSin]

131. Drugs like Heroin, Meth and Crack - you develop a tolerance

What got you high when you first started is not the same amount one needs years into the addiction.

I have a strong issue with legalizing drugs like these but I also have an issue with using our jail system as a method of rehab. Legalizing might work in Portugal but having grown up in Methland, I can't see that kind of system working here in the states - we have some real dumbasses in our county.

I would rather explore a system of decriminalization and then use the money spent housing drug users in jail to instead create better rehab & prevention programs.


This is for the hardcore drugs. As for things like pot, that's a different story.

[fascisthunter]

19. OMG... I am forever tainted by those pictures

fuck! Why did I dare myself to look.... shakes head.

[Uncle Joe]

20. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, Taverner.

[Arugula Latte]

21. Ho-leee Crap!

[glinda]

109. You said it.

[WillyT]

27. holy mother of mercy...

fuck

[randome]

28. What is the point of posting these images?

To see how many people you can gross out?

It can't be to convince DUers of your position on drugs because most people have already made up their minds on the subject.

And if you think for one moment that making drugs legal will somehow make all the crime cartels go away, you are incredibly naive.

Why, I can just hear the drug lords talking in the near future among themselves: "Guys! They did it! They made drugs legal! Guess we oughta get office jobs now, huh?"

This was an assinine post and you should delete it.

[FrodosPet]

34. Spot on!

Want to make medicine in a controlled lab, with safety and efficacy testing? You lousy 1%er dirtbag. Want to sell some heroin of uncertain purity and safety, knowing full well how small of a gap there is between effective and deadly? You are a hero of the 99%.

Why won't anyone, like the OP who advocates making death drugs legal, explain how this legalization thing would work in practice? Would former dealers, runners, lookouts etc. get enough unemployment compensation to replace the phat cash they are losing? How do we keep them from going into other criminal activities? We can't lock them up because that contributes to the commercial incarceration industry.

Damn, some people are lucky that they can see a pretty shiny solution without their mind going into the complex side effects and challenges of those solutions.

[Webster Green]

36. That is so absurd.

Of course removing the black market profit would put the cartels out of business. It's a fucking no-brainer. Who knows what the drug gangs will do after legalization? That misses the point completely.

[randome]

39. You think people who behead other people just to make a point...

...are going to just fold up and leave?

If there was no black market for heroin, there would be a black market for SOMETHING ELSE.

THAT'S the no-brainer. Because that is human nature, like it or not.

[Webster Green]

40. OK

There is no way to eliminate all the bad people on the planet.

I have no idea what that has to do with harm reduction through drug legalization.

You are really grasping at straws here. Your argument is laughable.

[randome]

43. I'm not grasping at anything.

Decriminalize, yes, but legalize, no. No way in hell should the government -or anyone else- actively encourage people to fuck themselves up.

And turning a blind eye to the fuck-ups until their fuck-ups are too big to ignore is the same thing as encouraging it.

The government's responsibility should be to offer treatment centers to get people OFF drugs, not just say, fuck it, do whatever you want.

These threads about legalizing drugs are the most laughable of all because the chance of that actually happening are so remote, it nearly doesn't merit discussion.

All the polls on the planet won't change the fact that most people do NOT want drugs legalized, regardless of how they respond to hypothetical situations that they know will NEVER occur.

All the comparisons to alcohol and prohibition are equally pointless because people, regardless of logic, perhaps, do NOT want drugs legalized. Having 'logic' or even 'right' on the side of legalization will not do a damn thing to change Society's position on this.

[markpkessinger]

48. I take it you support alchohol prohibition, too?

If not, your stance is pretty hypocritical, because alchohol can be, and often is, as destructive as any street drug you are likely to find.

[randome]

51. You could have read my last paragraph, you know.

No, I'm not hypocritical. And if I wanted to be, so fucking what?

But Society is hypocritical, no doubt about that. If you expect human society to operate according to logic or consistency, then I want some of what you're...no, wait, never mind.

For whatever reason, we see alcohol as less of a danger than hard drugs. It doesn't have to always make sense and I don't see that it will ever change.

So what? Don't we have more important things to do with our lives than to look for ways in which to seek instant gratification?

Decriminalize, yes. Legalize, no.

[LynneSin]

132. All we would do is move it from one cartel to another (Big Pharma)

And once Big Pharma starts raking in the bucks they will be just like the Tobacco Industry where they will do everything in their power to ensure people get addicted and stay addicted regardless of the medical outcome.

[Webster Green]

172. Good point.

I can't dispute that greedy corporations will ruin anything, if they are allowed to do so.

[Mimosa]

170. ^Agree. ^ The photos bother me but...

The photos in the OP illustrate a valid point.

[Taverner]

125. Well, I did warn you...

[Demstud]

127. Images are information

No reason information on drug use should be censored, even photos. Images of what a type of drug use does to someone accompanying an argument on how to prevent it is important information.

[drokhole]

30. What's just as disturbing is that there are certain illegal, Schedule I "drugs"...

...that have the potential to treat dangerous addictions like heroin (and methadone, the "medication" prescribed for heroin addicts). Of note is the "hallucinogen" Ibogaine:

Ibogaine in the News

Detox or Die
(he takes Ibogaine in part 4 around the 4:00 mark)

[chrisa]

31. Heroin is not a safe product.

We have standards in this country to sell safe products that will not kill people. You could say that there are exceptions like cigarettes and alcohol, but I feel that this is a different story. Heroin is a terrible drug that people should be discouraged from using, not encouraged.

[Webster Green]

37. Oh, bullshit.

Heroin can be made safely and used safely. It is not a terrible drug. It's quite nice actually. The law against it is another story.

[Sparkly]

42. "It's quite nice actually."

Ask an addict how nice it is.

[Webster Green]

44. I don't need to.

I've been seriously strung out on heroin before. Heroin feels really nice. That's why people are attracted to it.

All the horror stories are mainly due to the fact that it is illegal. It really is that simple. It's sad that people are so fucking brainwashed about drugs.

I would love to do a nice blast right now, but I won't. I don't care to get involved in the activity necessary to go score heroin. If it were legal, I would likely go buy a little once in awhile. I have an affinity for opiates. They make me feel really good.

I get my opiates legally these days. Got my docs writing me Morphine, Oxycodone, and Valium. It took me years to get them trained up so good though.

Adults should be able to do whatever drugs they want to do. We would be far better off.

[randome]

47. "It took me years to get them trained up so good though."

I say that pretty much everything you've posted thus far on this thread is fake.

[Webster Green]

53. Think whatever you like.

Everything I've said is true. I'm well educated on drugs, both from personal use and study.

It would seem that nobody on this thread has ever even heard of "harm reduction", in relation to drug legalization.

Do your homework and then get back to me with an argument that makes sense.

[Sparkly]

58. You're taking Morphine, Oxys and Valium?

I hope you don't mind my saying that I am sorry to hear that.

Of course opiates make you feel good. Of course heroin feels really nice.

It's a short step for people to go beyond what they "want to do" into what they "have to do" to survive, as they see it (and feel it with every nerve in the body).

I agree that the illegality makes things even worse than they have to be, in many regards, and I favor decriminalization; but there is also a point where it makes sense for intervention to be legal, like taking away a gun someone has pointed to their head is legal. There's a reason for forcing (yes, forcing) people who are a danger to themselves or others into custody; for power of attorney or guardianship; for exceptions to the ability to "consent," etc.

When someone is no longer able to make decisions for themselves, there must remain a legal way for others to intervene, even if it only clears their brain chemistry for a little while. Over time, those little periods of cognizance can matter.

But too often, it's not enough. Years of treatment aren't enough. It's a horrible drug, in the end.

[Webster Green]

114. Don't feel sorry for me. Save it for those who need pain meds and can't get them.

I have legitimate medical issues for the pain meds. I'm not going to feel guilty about the fact that they make me feel good as well as alleviating pain. I started getting Vicodin and eventually got to where I am now. I'm actually pretty surprised at what they write me every month, because they know I used to be a junkie. They've piss tested me a couple times over the years, to make sure i wasn't doing anything on the side. I've told them the truth about my illegal abuse.

A lot of people can't get what they need written because the docs are afraid of the DEA. Others can't afford to fill the scripts. They charge a fortune for some painkillers. Oxycontin 40mg #60 count goes for $450 to $550 in the drug stores around here. That is insane!

[Snake Alchemist]

118. I prefer propofol. Legalize it! nt

[Taverner]

126. I know exactly what you mean

I was taking Morphine and Vicodin for my herniated disc. Serious pain here, and the morphine, in addition to cutting the pain by 75%, really did feel good.

I still had to work, however, and that stuff slowed down my brain to a point where I had to stop. Damn I miss that stuff tho...

[RZM]

148. Brainwashed by people like Allen Ginsberg?

'I saw the best minds of my generation destroyed by madness, starving hysterical naked,
dragging themselves through the negro streets at dawn looking for an angry fix,
Angel-headed hipsters burning for the ancient heavenly connection
to the starry dynamo in the machinery of night'

That's not much of a commentary on heroin's legality. It's a comment on the dark side of addiction.

There's no shortage of songs about heroin either. Most aren't positive.

I actually agree that it should be legal. But I think it's ridiculous to blame conceptions of it on its illegality. Heroin is a terrible and destructive drug and NOBODY should use it.

[Tom Ripley]

52. An addict will tell you that it is indeed the nicest thing in the world

What is not nice is all the activity surrounding it. And that activity exists solely because of stupid and meaningless wars on drugs.

[Webster Green]

55. Bingo!

How refreshing to see actual logic on the subject.

[chrisa]

65. An addict will say that because they are an addict

They will do anything, including living in a world of delusion, to maintain their habit.

[Tom Ripley]

69. Well, of course they would, that's my point

"They will do anything, including living in a world of delusion, to maintain their habit"
And that makes them different from people of faith in exactly what ways? Should those poor benighted fools also be saved from themselves?

[chrisa]

73. Apples and oranges. The two can't even be compared.

[Tom Ripley]

80. Oh, they can be compared, but you are unwilling to do so

The fault lies with you, not me.

[randome]

76. Yeah, because an addict is only an addict...

...out of anger for hard drugs being illegal. And they couldn't possibly represent harm to anyone around them, could they?

[Tom Ripley]

81. Huh? (it appears that indignation may be overtaking clarity)

[Taverner]

128. ZING!!!!!

Dude, that should get a DUzy!

[Spider Jerusalem]

135. Sure, they'll steal, they'll commit fraud, whatever.

But given the chance to maintain their habit and stay straight and not worry about getting dopesick? A junkie's going to be as relatively functional as most people, probably. Or a good many would, anyway. See for instance Dr William Stewart Halsted...one of the founders of the Johns Hopkins school of medicine, who was also addicted to morphine throughout his long and illustrious career, and injected himself with at least 200mg a day...and switched to morphine to break the grip of a worse addiciton to cocaine. Personally I'd be more worried about a habituated user of opiates NOT having their drugs than having them. And the necessity to "do anything" is entirely because drugs are illegal.

[Scootaloo]

154. 'Cause dehumanizing rhetoric is so helpful

Bravo.

[Sparkly]

67. The criminality makes it worse.

But it's not only about that.

Of COURSE the feeling is wonderful. Ask the people who love the addict about all the rest of it, or an addict who isn't in denial. Then you'll hear the truth.

[Zookeeper]

175. Some junkies love the activity surrounding illegal drugs....

The danger, the sneaking, the secrets, the rituals are as satisfying as the high.

I wish I hadn't had the opportunity to observe this behavior in people, up close and personal.

[chrisa]

45. "It's quite nice" Have you ever known a heroin addict?

They look like they're dying. They're slowly killing themselves, and the drug takes over their lives.

I've seen people destroyed by heroin first-hand. The stuff should not be sold - ever.

[Webster Green]

49. I've know plenty of them. I've been one.

You are stereotyping. There are heroin addicts who go to work everyday. You would never know they were addicts.

You are very confused on the subject, because you rely on your government for your "information". (I guess)

[chrisa]

54. You know it's bad stuff deep down. You're excusing the drug.

I suggest getting help with getting clean - especially from prescription drugs.

Furthermore, I can point out a heroin addict - I know many of them, and they all have the same look - like their body is slowly dying. Trust me on this - if heroin addicts have a distinctive look, imagine what it is doing to their insides - not to mention the health problems that come with poking yourself with a needle and forcing poison into your system. Don't do that to your body.

"My government" is telling you to stop - trying to help you, because these drugs are killing you. Even if you think the government is 100% selfish, think of it this way - they don't want you to shoot up because of the awful (expensive) health effects you get from it later. Heroin has never led to anything good. Save your arms, your body, your mind, and the people around you, and never touch the stuff again.

[Webster Green]

59. That is false

You are wrong. I've seen plenty of loser addicts who fit your description perfectly, and I've seen plenty of others who do not. You would not be able to point them out as addicts. Heroin is not particularly toxic, unless you do more than your tolerance will allow. In that case the negative aspects are acute and quite possibly deadly.

Sorry to go against everything you presume to know about heroin, but you are indeed stereotyping, and just plain wrong about the toxicity of the drug. Look it up or something. Don't go to the DEA website for your info though.

[Sparkly]

64. Where are you going, Erowid??

Look up "denial," too.

[JonLP24]

106. Erowid is a good site

They won't lie to you about the negative effects of each drug.

[Sparkly]

60. I call bullshit.

Yes, there are some heroin addicts who go to work everyday. And despite their best intentions, that doesn't last long.

I do not rely on "my government" for information on this.

[Webster Green]

72. You would be wrong.

Many have no problem holding a job. I love working on opiates. Absolutely love it!

I'm speaking from personal experience, and from observing people that I have known. Sorry that it busts open your ideas of what a heroin addict is supposed to look like, or be like. The world is just not quite as black and white as some folks would like. Unless everything is nicely pigeon-holed, some people get kind of insecure.

Please stop with the tired stereotypes. It does nothing to further your already shaky case for keeping drugs illegal.

[Sparkly]

87. This is not about stereotypes.

And it's not about keeping drugs illegal -- you might recall I posted that several times now.

You might also give up the line of argument that you know something from experience, that everyone else is working from "ideas," "stereotypes," and data from "our government," and that you have the platform to educate the rest of us.

I suggest you adjust your perspective.

I know people whose "habit" never got worse than prescription drugs like Oxys, and/or alcohol -- they sustained it for years. But sooner or later, it interferes with every aspect of their lives. And it's hard to quit.

And I know the rest of what I'm talking about -- devastated lives and death -- without going into details.

You still think opiates are great fun, and it's all about free will, and everyone who says otherwise doesn't know what they're talking about.

I understand.

(Just curious, no snark intended -- How old are you, and when did you start using opiates?)

[Webster Green]

95. I'm 65 on Wed.

First used opiates in 1965, in Vietnam.

The problem here is that the concept of harm reduction is being ignored in favor of the usual stereotypes and horror stories. Harm reduction via legalization would reduce the horror stories.

This is not a difficult concept to understand, yet you cannot comprehend it. The devastation you refer to is caused more by the prohibition laws than by the actual drugs.

[Sparkly]

97. Sorry, no.

The devastation I refer to is compounded by making an illness into a felony... But the addiction itself wields its own horrors, and they happen FAST.

What opiates did you use in Vietnam? Are you still working?

[Webster Green]

100. I used heroin, also lots of painkiller pills and LSD, and yes, I realize that acid is not an opiate.

I've worked all my life, and I'm still working. No problem. I can work circles around 20 somethings, but mainly because they haven't figured out what work is yet.

[Sparkly]

102. I'm sorry, but to me you might as well be saying you're a pink elephant with purple spots.

In my experience (and yeah, there's more than enough experience), NObody can use opiates chronically and have a life unaffected by it, for the worse.

In short, I just don't believe you.

[Boudica the Lyoness]

152. Sparkly...I have to jump in here.

I have been on hydrocodone for four years next month to treat the terrible pain I suffer.

"Hydrocodone is in a class of medications called opiate (narcotic) analgesics and in a class of medications called antitussives. Hydrocodone relieves pain by changing the way the brain and nervous system respond to pain".

I take between one and three pills a day depending on my pain. I'm not afraid of pain and am willing to tolerate a lot of it, but when I take a pill that in about 40 minutes takes away enough of the pain that I am me again, I am so grateful. By taking hydrocodone I can be productive again and my thoughts are not on the hell that my body is going through.

I used to run, ride horses daily and work hard but sometimes my challenge can be making it down the stairs in the morning. There have been times I cannot roll over in bed let alone get up without help.

I have had some days when I take no pain meds but that only happens when I'm on higher doses of steroids. Besides steroids, nothing else has touched my pain.

I have a chronic disease and there is no effective treatment for it, let alone cure. It has been getting progressively worse over the years. I keep trying different things..diet..meds, but so far no luck. I'm still very optimistic though. I'm so very grateful my doctor gives me pain meds. I am also grateful that my doctor do not have the same opinion about opiates as you do.

I am living a good life. I help on the farm and work with my horses when I can, I garden and I am in the process of restarting my once successful business. I am on opiates as I write this.

Please be more tolerant towards people afflicted with so much pain that they need the best help available. Be more tolerant.

I must also add that about 15 years ago....when I was as healthy...I heard a doctor on a radio program say that people addicted to heroin can function very well as long as they get their "fix". He went on to say that many heroin addicts are high functioning professionals. I thought this was intersting at the time and now I believe it.

[Cetacea]

112. Opiates show great promise for treating depression

Yet psychiatrists are too afraid to prescribe them, and are forced into telling refractory patients that that household current through the brain is their final resort (because frying the brain is safer than opiates, you see)

I had a friend who put himself through medical school while doing heroin in small doses throughout. Hasn't affected his career of his genius IQ.

The fear. It hurts.

[Snake Alchemist]

119. Nothing quite like driving a school bus on opiates. My day flies by. nt

[Webster Green]

173. You beat me too it.

I had actually planned to use that little quip myself in this thread. Thanks a lot, man.

[Taverner]

129. The ones who look like they are dying are using the black tar variety

Extremely impure, full of adulterants and toxic shit

Imagine being a drinker, but the only stuff you can get a hold of is rubbing alcohol

[Logical]

46. You scare the shit out of me. Pot is fucking safe. Heroin is not.

[Webster Green]

50. It is fairly safe if you know your tolerance and you know the dose you are getting.

I love it when folks just assume they are experts on subjects they obviously know nothing about.

The worst thing about heroin is the law against it, and everything that goes with that status.

[Logical]

56. I love it when people like you think every damn drug invented should be 100%....

legal and there is no downside to anyone doing and getting addicted to drugs.

[Tom Ripley]

57. Well, there are downsides to many things

should people refrain from
falling in love
or
having children
or
career choices
or following
personal dreams
that may become
personal follies?

[randome]

62. Don't forget...

Arsenic in our drinking water.
Minimum wage laws being tossed aside.
Unions being legislated out of existence.
Abortion rights under constant threat.
Hell, WOMEN'S rights under constant threat.

There are 'downsides' to those, too, but hey, why should government get involved? Just let people do whatever the fuck they want and if someone fucks up their life or that of their family, well, then it's time to step in and say, "Umm, not so fast there."

[Logical]

66. WTF are you talking about? Crack = Love?

[Tom Ripley]

75. I assume you just randomly picked your user name

Am I right?

[Logical]

88. No, I assume you do not know what logical means.

[Webster Green]

61. I didn't say that.

Of course there can be a downside for many people who choose to do any sort of intoxicants.

I find it sad that you cannot grasp the concept of harm reduction. The laws against drugs actually do far more harm than the drugs themselves, therefore, legalization should be considered, and has worked well where it has been.

[randome]

63. No children, I take it.

So I doubt you have the same perspective that most of us have.

[Tom Ripley]

78. I'm actually shocked that it took 62 posts before the inevitable WSTATC???!!!

[randome]

82. It's a perfectly valid point that someone with children...

...might have a different perspective than you. Doesn't mean it is necessarily the 'proper' perspective but it's a valid one. Sorry you can't try to see things from another viewpoint.

[Webster Green]

79. OMG! How lame!

Yes, I do have kids. I don't want to see them locked up for 40 years for smoking a joint.

I'm against drug laws...period.

Can you please try to grasp the concept of legalization for harm reduction? Please! Do a little research on the subject. You will discover that I am correct.

I'm not advocating that everyone and their kids do drugs. I'm advocating that the government back the fuck off, and mind their own fucking beeswax.

[randome]

85. Do you give drugs to your children?

Decriminalize, yes. Legalize, no.

Advocating the government take a hands off approach ignores the long history of government programs and laws that protect us from unsafe drinking water, unsafe food, flying, etc.

You just want to rationalize your own need for drugs.

[riderinthestorm]

90. +1000000. nt

[Webster Green]

96. "You just want to rationalize your own need for drugs."

No, I just want you to consider that harm reduction is an alternative to the current approach, which has never and will never succeed.

You don't know me. I don't "need" drugs. I do like them though. I take enough prescription stuff that I would go through a few rough days if I stopped, but really, even that is not that bad. I've gone cold turkey off heroin, and while it was unpleasant, it passes. Not the end of the world by any means.

My children are grown. If they wanted drugs and asked me, sure, I would hook them up. I'm sure they can find their own though.

[Logical]

68. If you want to lower sentences, I am all in favor of what you are saying.....

but making heroin legal to buy OTC would be a terrible idea.

I agree sentences for all drugs are excessive.

And I think pot should be 100% legal. And Xanax should be illegal!

[randome]

70. Decriminalize, yes. Legalize, no.

Mandated treatment centers are the best possible solution for hard drugs.

[LisaL]

74. xanax works great for anxiety.

It's not the drug's fault that people abuse it.

[FrodosPet]

77. And if you don't?

What if you DON'T know your tolerance, and you DON'T know the dose you are getting?

I suppose you learn through trial and error. Too bad the errors can kill you.

[Webster Green]

84. That is exactly the problem that legalization would remove.

Standardized and uncontaminated doses, as opposed to the crap that finds it's way to the black market.

That is the essence of the harm reduction theory. That and the fact that nobody will be trying to steal your TeeVee to get their fix.

Is that really so difficult to understand?

[randome]

86. You said it yourself.

Life is not black and white. Do you think for one moment that 'underground' versions of any legal drug would not make their way into society?

Of course they would. The drug cartels would find something else to sell. The black market would shift position to sell something new.

It's human nature.

And where would your "Standardized and uncontaminated doses" come from? The government, the same institution you want to take a "hands off" approach.

I don't think you've thought your position through very well.

[Webster Green]

98. Wow! Totally clueless.

You really think the drug cartels are going to make money smuggling and selling black market shit that is already available and cheap.

And you honestly think standardized and uncontaminated doses of narcotics are really that hard to produce? This is called grasping at straws to defend an absurd position.

I have thought my position through very well. Do a little research on legalization and harm reduction and you will discover that I'm correct. There are plenty of doctors and judges and law enforcement officers who agree with the harm reduction concept. It's not like I'm some whacked out junkie with all these weird ideas. The idea has worked well where it's been given a chance. Portugal comes to mind.

Do your homework.

[FrodosPet]

107. Portugal did NOT legalize drugs!

I've been doing my homework. If you go to Portugal and traffic heroin or cocaine, you are going to jail. If you are a USER, with less than 10 days supply, you still go before a committee that has the power to fine you and force you into treatment.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I have not seen anyone here advocate that users should be imprisoned. At the same time, it seems hypocritical for so many to say the legal pharmaceutical industry needs to be whacked down or destroyed, and yet the government has no business regulating medically unnecessary products for purity or safety.

[randome]

115. Can you not read very well?

I said the cartels and the black market would find "something else" to sell. So why would you say I think they would sell stuff that is already available and cheap?

[Taverner]

130. There's no way bathtub gin competes with mass produced tanqueray...

[BlueJazz]

99. After reading your numerous posts on this issue, for what it's worth,..

..I agree with everything you've said.

Being a (former working) Jazz musician, I've seen both sides of the drug coin and
destroying someone's life for the "Sin" of addiction is totally cruel, illogical and harmful to society.

...and I might add, a waste of taxpayer money.

[FrodosPet]

103. So it WILL be affordable?

For people to not steal to get the fix that their body must have, then heroin needs to be affordable. Max price - $20 a day ($560 a month).

Even that amount will put a hurt on most people's budgets. Anything higher than that - there will be crime. If not stranger theft, then at least a lot of family and friend screwing.

Maybe $10 a day?

[Spider Jerusalem]

137. Pharmaceutical grade heroin administered in controlled doses is quite safe, actually.

By and large if dosage is properly regulated, if they aren't combined with alcohol or benzodiazepenes or other respiratory depressants, and if the user doesn't have an allergy? Opiates are one of the safest classes of drugs in terms of long-term effects to the user.

[backscatter712]

151. I can support legal injection clinics for heroin addicts.

The Swiss have tried these - you can go there, you won't be bothered by the cops, you can get pharmaceutically clean heroin, get it in known, controlled doses, get a place to lie down, and be watched so you don't die of an OD, and you can be decently functional in society.

I don't know about putting heroin or meth on drugs store shelves, but make injection clinics available

[Taverner]

147. I will agree pot is safe, but do you have any data showing heroin is dangerous

And I am not talking street heroin. I am talking the heroin like they have in the UK. Yes, you can get a prescription for pharm grade heroin, and it is part of their harm reduction plan, giving heroin to addicts to maintain. Many live full and productive lives.

[LisaL]

71. I simply do not follow your argument.

The ingredients for "krokodil" are all legal. Addicts buy them and then make the drug. So how is making drugs legal going to work?

[Taverner]

83. They can get Bayer Heroin over the counter

Thus, they don't end up shooting Hydrochloric Acid into their veins

Harm reduction...

[LisaL]

89. They get legal stuff over the counter

and make something they can shoot in their veins. I am not sure why you think that they could only get addicted to heroin as opposed to anything else if heroin was available legally.

[Webster Green]

108. Being addicted is really not that big of a deal until you run out.

It isn't as though your whole life or health is suddenly in ruins. Your body builds up a tolerance and when deprived, causes unpleasant reactions. You don't know weather to shit or puke, and generally feel like shit. However, the symptoms eventually pass.

The laws are so crazy that the DEA has succeeded in making doctors so scared to give pain meds, that terminal patients are denied strong enough meds to really take the pain away, because of the fear of becoming addicted in their remaining days. HUH?!

[Cetacea]

111. So true

My friend's brother had three weeks to live as the result of Liver cancer. They still hadn't put him on morphine, yet they had no problem performing additional tests on him that ran the bill up another 100k. I had a few choice words with his doctor and he was put on morphine a few hours later.

[Snake Alchemist]

120. Why didn't you just buy him some heroin?

Last edited Tue Feb 14, 2012, 10:11 AM - Edit history (1)

According to some, there is very little downside.

[Taverner]

117. Because the OTC version would be cheaper, safer and more exact

Tell me, would you rather take benadryl or make your own?

[Snake Alchemist]

121. Depends on how much cheaper the homemade variety is. nt

[Taverner]

122. Hard to compete with mass production

[Snake Alchemist]

134. My homemade bread is cheaper than store-bought. nt

[Taverner]

146. But if you were to sell it it wouldn't be

By selling your bread, the value of your labor has to be calculated into the equation...

[Snake Alchemist]

153. But why would I buy it when I can make my own more cheaply?

I share it with friends and family too.

What you're missing is that it's not just lack of heroin that leads to crocodile use. Crocodile gives a more intense high so it's attractive to some people. You're never going to have legalized crocodile though because poison is poison in this instance.

[Taverner]

155. No it doesn't give you a more intense high!

IN fact less of a high - the only reason Krokodil is even used is because (1) morphine is in short supply and (2) heroin is in short supply.

Diactyl Morphine (heroin) is by far the strongest opiate in terms of intense high, followed by Hydromorphone (Dilaudids, DOC of John Phillips)

[Snake Alchemist]

156. I've read varying accounts.

Looks like the main pull is that it's cheaper than heroin. Not sure how you're going to fix that unless you just give heroin away. (Crocodile is £2 per vial)

Oddly enough the Russians blame Big Pharma for keeping codeine OTC.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/krokodil-the-drug-that-eats-junkies-2300787.html

[Taverner]

157. If it were OTC, and sold for what it would cost to make in a lab...

It wouldn't be much more than pot or alcohol.

Look at it this way: with all the taxes, it would be cheaper to distill your own spirits, and some people do, but the majority prefer the "devil they know" over the "devil they don't"

[Snake Alchemist]

159. Hard to beat £2 per vial

Unless you're going to literally give it away to anyone who wants it, I don't see a solution to this problem.

[chrisa]

158. Benadryl is intended to help you.

It doesn't get you addicted and clean out your bank account. It has a legitimate medical purpose. There's a difference between treating a medical condition and the pain that comes with it, and taking drugs just to get high. That's common sense, really.

That's why pain killers are regulated - so people don't abuse them, and so they don't get addicted. Pain killers help people deal with painful injuries and surgeries - there's a legitimate medical purpose there. What medical purpose does injecting yourself with heroin serve, even if (in some unrealistic situation), it were unadulterated and pure?

There's no actual purpose of self-injected heroin - people just take it for the opiate high. Painkillers, on the other hand, have a very specific purpose.

Your OP is anti-scientific bunk. It fails badly because, rather than saying how bad heroin is, you blame government regulation.

[Taverner]

165. What do you take, OTC, for emotional pain?

I'm waiting....

[chrisa]

167. Nothing. You take anti-depressants for depression,

which are prescribed by an expert (a doctor). You don't shoot it into your arm with a dirty needle.

Nurses and doctors are trained experts with using needles, and making sure you have the correct dosage. Drug users - not so much.

[riderinthestorm]

91. There's a difference between decriminalizing, and legalizing.

There's another thread going right now about Portugal... where decriminalization (NOT LEGALIZATION) has cut drug use and addiction by half in less than 10 years.

Here's an excerpt from a most excellent OP: http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5g9C6x99EnFVdFuXw_B8pvDRzLqcA?docId=CNG.e740b6d0077ba8c28f6d1dd931c6f679.5e1

"A law that became active on July 1, 2001 did not legalise drug use, but forced users caught with banned substances to appear in front of special addiction panels rather than in a criminal court.

The panels composed of psychologists, judges and social workers recommended action based on the specifics of each case.

Since then, government panels have recommended a response based largely on whether the individual is an occasional drug user or an addict.

Of the nearly 40,000 people currently being treated, "the vast majority of problematic users are today supported by a system that does not treat them as delinquents but as sick people," Goulao said."

[Sparkly]

92. Thank you for this!!

[randome]

93. That was the thread that got me thinking more about the differences between the two.

[backscatter712]

104. There's a reason why our government has funded methadone clinics.

It's something that heroin addicts can use to manage their addiction, maybe kick it entirely, that's made in a pharmaceutically clean facility, and doesn't cause you to look like something out of Night of the Living Dead, with bones sticking out.

[Odin2005]

94. OMG, my eyes!

[backscatter712]

101. How can you have BONE exposed like that and not be dead of gangrene?

[Webster Green]

105. I wondered the same thing.

That is really scary. I never heard about about this stuff, but man, those pictures give me the willies.

[LisaL]

113. I imagine the ones with those kind of wounds would eventually die.

[backscatter712]

142. Any doctor looking at that would order immediate amputation.

Otherwise the patient will die of infections.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

124. Yeah, 'cause Xanax and a warm bath are both legal and safer.

Not doing stupid things -- regardless of legality -- is the best preventative policy.

[backscatter712]

139. The goal is harm reduction.

The reason we no longer ban alcohol, even though we're all well-aware of the nasty effects from drunk-driving crashes to cirrhosis of the liver, is because prohibition makes things a hell of a lot worse.

Back in the day, you ended up with bathtub gin and moonshine whiskey adulterated with methanol & who knows what else, poisoning people and making people blind. And you had the endless organized criminal violence all over the place as the black market stepped in to fill the demand.

I'm not saying that you should be able to buy Krokodil off the drugstore shelves. But I am saying we should use harm-reduction strategies. Direct addicts to methadone clinics, so they can manage their addictions is far superior to seeing them with their flesh falling off and looking like something out of a zombie movie.

I would suggest that stimulant addiction be dealt with in the same way - if someone's so badly addicted that they can't be made to quit cold-turkey, give them a prescription stimulant under medical supervision at a clinic that's like a methadone clinic, so they can function in society.

And marijuana just needs to be legalized and regulated like alcohol.

But that's what we need to do - harm reduction.

[Snake Alchemist]

136. Anybody actually bother to read this?

"Addicts in Tver say they never have any problems buying the key ingredient for krokodil – codeine pills, which are sold without prescription. "Once I was trying to buy four packs, and the woman told me they could only sell two to any one person," recalls one, with a laugh. "So I bought two packs, then came back five minutes later and bought another two. Other than that, they never refuse to sell it to us, even though they know what we're going to do with it." The solution, to many, is obvious: ban the sale of codeine tablets, or at least make them prescription-only. But despite the authorities being aware of the problem for well over a year, nothing has been done."

Sounds like it's working out well.

[backscatter712]

143. Essentially like cooking meth.

Only the magic ingredient is codeine pills rather than pseudoephedrine.

[backscatter712]

140. Russia desperately needs some methadone clinics.

That's the actual harm-reduction solution to this sort of problem.

People get addictions. That's part of life. The question is what do you do with them.

Ban everything? Have a War on Drugs? Look where that got us.

Let them make Krokodil meth-cook style out of codeine and battery acid? See the pictures...

Methadone clinics? They work.

An addict, who is desperate for a fix, and given the choice between a methadone clinic and injecting poison in his or her body that makes flesh fall off will go to the methadone clinic, maybe get some treatment, take business away from the organized drug traffickers, stop with the risky behaviors like using dirty needles, and maybe become functional in society.

[NorthCarolina]

161. O M G...I knew I shouldn't have opened this post,

and yes we were warned, but O M G. Somebody please tell me these were photoshopped. That is beyond sad.

[Taverner]

164. No, sadly they are not

This is what happens when you inject hydrochloric acid into your veins

[NotThisTime]

174. lets legalize it all for children, teens and adults

Put crap in your body, shoot up, take pills suffer the consequence.

[MrSlayer]

176. Dude should rent himself out for Halloween.

Subject aside, that is pretty cool looking.

Legalization and regulation would sort this kind of thing out.

[wmcgrath0315]

178. Don't legalize it... phase it out

If Heroine is in such low supply that these addicts are willing to do anything they can get their hands on they deserve what they get. The only thing that legalizing heroine will accomplish is a higher crime rate since, when its legalized, it can then be taxed and most likely will be. When that happens, theft and violent crime for material gains will sky rocket since these addicts will become an even less productive part of society as they can readily get their hands on dope. I say, give them their just desserts and allow these people to suffer. They are scum anyways and obviously too stupid and addicted to be helped at this point since their willing to take such risky action just for a small high. Cleanse the drug addled populous or let them die.