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Sat Jun 22, 2013, 01:44 PM

I'm beginning to think the NSA, CIA, et. al. are bad ideas. Talk me down.

I've been wondering, what if Intelligence were to be crowd sourced instead of opaque?

It seems to me the problem with these agencies is that whomever has the reins of these organizations has tremendous effective power to shape the world as they see fit. The authoritarian's wet dream.

The way classified material is organized yields an organizational structure that can be visualized as a man of war jellyfish. The tentacles each with their own targets and purpose, but unlike the jellyfish these tentacles are steerable from on high.

The situation we have now is very troubling to me. My suspicion is that the NSA is operating a "Slurp-N-Burp" (tm) where communications are slurped up and stored, and then once a target is identified the entire stream of their past communications is available in its full glory. We have confirmation that this is done for a segment of the US population. We don't have it fully divulged as far as I know.

That even this small (relatively, it's still quite impressive, I'm sure) corpus exists in secret, anyone smart enough to gain access to it has to realize the potential of the system. The information is there for any company's executive who deals overseas. Congressional Staffers? Most likely. Journalists? You betcha, complete with that infamous airhead wink. All of that and most likely more ready to be tapped in service to shape the world.

From behind a veil. It seems every time a Toto comes along, they are smacked hard. Journalists dieing, whistle blowers jailed and politicians mysteriously change positions or fail to ask the crucial follow up in hearings. Is that what is actually happening? Fuck if I know, but God Damn it smells to high heaven.

So now, I'm pondering the notion that we need to burn the curtain this time. I have several problems with that notion because the world is truly a dangerous place. I will concede the idea that these opaque agencies had made it more so. Yet, still it remains that we do need intelligence.

That brings me to the subject, which is the question: Could we satisfy the intelligence needs of a free society with croud sourcing?



What else might work?

32 replies, 2517 views

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Reply I'm beginning to think the NSA, CIA, et. al. are bad ideas. Talk me down. (Original post)
hootinholler Jun 2013 OP
Gregorian Jun 2013 #1
hootinholler Jun 2013 #2
cali Jun 2013 #3
Catherina Jun 2013 #5
cali Jun 2013 #7
Catherina Jun 2013 #4
hootinholler Jun 2013 #6
Catherina Jun 2013 #16
hootinholler Jun 2013 #18
Monkie Jun 2013 #29
Incitatus Jun 2013 #8
hootinholler Jun 2013 #9
Monkie Jun 2013 #30
randome Jun 2013 #10
hootinholler Jun 2013 #11
randome Jun 2013 #19
Recursion Jun 2013 #12
hootinholler Jun 2013 #14
Recursion Jun 2013 #17
hootinholler Jun 2013 #20
Recursion Jun 2013 #22
Octafish Jun 2013 #13
hootinholler Jun 2013 #15
Octafish Jun 2013 #21
Egalitarian Thug Jun 2013 #23
wtmusic Jun 2013 #25
treestar Jun 2013 #24
jwirr Jun 2013 #26
Turbineguy Jun 2013 #27
kestrel91316 Jun 2013 #28
truebluegreen Jun 2013 #31
silvershadow Jun 2013 #32

Response to hootinholler (Original post)

Sat Jun 22, 2013, 02:21 PM

1. We need to change the context from divisive to connected.

Long ago, before we began to grow our own food, we were connected, and dependent upon each other.

We must go from being competitive, to cooperative.

There are other solutions, but I've determined over the years that we're not ready to change them.

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Response to Gregorian (Reply #1)

Sat Jun 22, 2013, 06:39 PM

2. Even afterward we were

Humans were connected through the commons, which should connect us still today. That's part of Occupy's message.

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Response to hootinholler (Original post)

Sat Jun 22, 2013, 06:41 PM

3. Certainly not.

 

No talking you down from me. They're horrible ideas and even worse actualities.

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Response to cali (Reply #3)

Sat Jun 22, 2013, 06:45 PM

5. I had Apple Pie today. Wish you could have shared it

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Response to Catherina (Reply #5)

Sat Jun 22, 2013, 06:48 PM

7. you lucky duck, you.

 

would have loved to have been there to share some apple pie and conversation.

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Response to hootinholler (Original post)

Sat Jun 22, 2013, 06:45 PM

4. Talk you down? Come sit right next to me so I can talk you UP!

We don't need these Trillion Dollar monsters. Imagine where our country would be if even one year's worth of their budget went towards social programs for the people.

Imagine the multi trillions that disappeared down their dark hole over the years because some bogeyman might come hide under your bed.

Imagine all the enemies we wouldn't have if we were taking care of our own people instead of meddling in everyone else's business and trying to destabilize other countries.

Imagine, just imagine where we'd be.

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Response to Catherina (Reply #4)

Sat Jun 22, 2013, 06:47 PM

6. But teh DOW!

Who will protect Wall Street?

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Response to hootinholler (Reply #6)

Sun Jun 23, 2013, 11:37 AM

16. Alas, poor Wall Street may have to work for a living

May I suggest factory work in one of those Maquiladoras they love so much?

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Response to Catherina (Reply #16)

Sun Jun 23, 2013, 11:42 AM

18. I just had a vision of Bernanke

Being paid piece work rates for popping a rivet into a hole for 16 hours a day.



Thanks for the laugh!

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Response to hootinholler (Reply #18)

Sun Jun 23, 2013, 01:22 PM

29. "piece work rates for popping rivets" re-education program

 

love that comment, so many people could benefit from a "piece work rates for popping rivets" re-education program

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Response to hootinholler (Original post)

Sat Jun 22, 2013, 06:52 PM

8. Do you think we could stop them if we wanted?

If people who tried to expose them were murdered, how would you even go about stopping them?

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Response to Incitatus (Reply #8)

Sun Jun 23, 2013, 10:14 AM

9. Fuck if I know how to stop them

But I'm betting if we try someone will figure out a way. The thing is I guess that we need our own intelligence to be able to do it.

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Response to Incitatus (Reply #8)

Sun Jun 23, 2013, 01:25 PM

30. if they could do it in egypt?

 

have you actually watched what happens when real people, normal people head for the street.
the army and police, they have families too, they are citizens too.
there are 10-20-50-100-1000 of you for every one of "them".

are egyptians braver people than the americans?

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Response to hootinholler (Original post)

Sun Jun 23, 2013, 10:19 AM

10. The Internet is connecting us all in ways we never dreamed were possible.

 

It's certainly a worthwhile discussion to have regarding agencies that were designed to deal with 'Cold War' mentalities.

No one is going to 'invade' America so the most we need to protect ourselves from is hacking.

However, these agencies also perform other tasks.

Rooting out human slavery rings. Dealing with international pedophilia. Stopping real terrorist activities.

Scaling them back is probably for the best so they can concentrate only on those kind of tasks.

But we should not act in a knee-jerk manner and do this because of what Snowden says. He has made some pretty outrageous claims without evidence to back them up.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font]
[hr]

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Response to randome (Reply #10)

Sun Jun 23, 2013, 10:29 AM

11. Really?

Rooting out human trafficking? International Pedophilia? When was the last time that happened? When was that rooted out? I think I missed those bits. My suspicion is that if those activities were uncovered they were sat on as 'leverage.'

I totally agree about the knee jerk part.

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Response to hootinholler (Reply #11)

Sun Jun 23, 2013, 11:44 AM

19. Overview from CIA site.

 

https://www.cia.gov/library//publications/the-world-factbook/fields/2196.html
You may not trust them but I can't find other statistics and I'm donating platelets now.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font]
[hr]

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Response to hootinholler (Original post)

Sun Jun 23, 2013, 11:23 AM

12. Look at the woo-ier parts of DU and FR for, oh I don't know, a couple of days

And ask yourself if this is the basis you want our national intel program run on.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #12)

Sun Jun 23, 2013, 11:34 AM

14. And that would be worse than what we have how?

Seriously. I'm not being sarcastic there.

If we as a nation are not doing anything wrong, what do we have to fear? I should have the same access to that information as the gubmint does. We pay for the collection of this data, why don't we have access to it?

If we have access to actual real information and fact about our programs, then the woo will fail on its own. The vast majority of woo is rooted in secrets.

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Response to hootinholler (Reply #14)

Sun Jun 23, 2013, 11:39 AM

17. The Internet has *reinforced* the majority of Americans who believe in creationism

I want to stress that: if you pick an average American, he or she is more likely to reject the theory of evolution than to accept it. The Internet is helping them spread their bullshit.

If we have access to actual real information and fact about our programs, then the woo will fail on its own.

The Internet is a great platform for spreading truth and an even greater platform for spreading falsehoods.

I should have the same access to that information as the gubmint does.

But we don't want the meth lab or pedophile ring to have the same access to the information that the government does.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #17)

Sun Jun 23, 2013, 11:49 AM

20. Are you saying this is all to catch meth labs and pedophile rings?

By law the microscope is not to be used on US citizens. If everyone had the information on who the Meth labs and Pedophiles were, wouldn't there be some backlash towards them?

I don't mean to advocate vigilantism, but I don't think the world will be over-run by pedophiles more so than it is now.

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Response to hootinholler (Reply #20)

Sun Jun 23, 2013, 12:24 PM

22. No, but you're saying you don't want any secrecy at all

Which would include those situations.

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Response to hootinholler (Original post)

Sun Jun 23, 2013, 11:25 AM

13. Stop domestic NSA spying or else...

...Democracy is dead.

Sorry, Hoot. That's the reality.

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Response to Octafish (Reply #13)

Sun Jun 23, 2013, 11:35 AM

15. You can have my democracy

When you pry it from my cold dead fingers.

I say spy back.

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Response to hootinholler (Reply #15)

Sun Jun 23, 2013, 11:54 AM

21. Absolutely.

Why else would we bother to post on DU all these years?

The biggest battleground in the world is for the space between the ears.

Everybody's.

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Response to hootinholler (Original post)

Sun Jun 23, 2013, 12:26 PM

23. What else might work? Having our government function more closely to the way it was intended

 

would greatly reduce the need, but foreign intelligence is part of the necessary evil. The words protectionism and isolationism, like liberalism, have become 'bad words' to the sheeple, but due to our being one of only a handful of nations that are truly self-sufficient, are great advantages. This advantage has been coopted and exploited by the parasite class so that the little people reap little or no benefit from it.

If we are to avoid the historically inevitable consequences of Empire, we must deconstruct the empire. Our government's primary job is to protect its citizens. That includes protecting them in all forms, not just militarily.

The purpose of our government was laid out very clearly in the executive summary: Establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity.

Five things, five jobs in order to secure our consent. By my count, our government has utterly failed in three of them, and of the remaining two, only one is accomplished and that has led to the Empire that precludes the others.

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Response to Egalitarian Thug (Reply #23)

Sun Jun 23, 2013, 12:41 PM

25. +1 Well said.

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Response to hootinholler (Original post)

Sun Jun 23, 2013, 12:27 PM

24. So we would be the only country in the world without intelligence agencies

How do you really think that would end us up?

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Response to hootinholler (Original post)

Sun Jun 23, 2013, 12:58 PM

26. The CIA is still made up of the same kind of jokers it had in the first place and NSA is just thier

offshoot. They worship, the rich, the corporations and the MIC and anything outside that is of no importance in any of our policies. They remind me of the Koch brothers.

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Response to hootinholler (Original post)

Sun Jun 23, 2013, 01:13 PM

27. Unfortunately.......

The NSA and the CIA are a teensy bit better than Hitler, Stalin, Hezbollah and others of that ilk.

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Response to hootinholler (Original post)

Sun Jun 23, 2013, 01:21 PM

28. Crowdsourcing intelligence >>>> lots of disinformation to sort through.

 

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Response to hootinholler (Original post)

Sun Jun 23, 2013, 01:30 PM

31. Talk you down? No way!

 

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Response to hootinholler (Original post)

Sun Jun 23, 2013, 01:51 PM

32. I wish I could, but honestly in good conscience that is not possible. nt

 

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