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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region Forumsis a liveblog of Snowdens movements the biggest troll in history?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/global/2013/jun/23/edward-snowden-leaves-hong-kong-moscow-livethe guardian has a live blog tracking the movements of the popular whistleblower Edward Snowden while the most powerful nation in the world can only watch in humiliation.
did hong kong really flip the bird at the US?
with Snowden reportedly in russian airspace it is too late for a attempt to divert the flight.
once on russian soil Edward Snowden is one border away from the EU, and passport-less borders when traveling by car.
there are rumours of him going to iceland, venezuela, cuba, but why would he fly across international airspace?
a $80 billion a year industry of private contractors, the most powerful military in the world vs one nerd.
is this the biggest troll in history?
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cali
(114,904 posts)Do you think the U.S. would try and kidnap Snowden from Russia?
Bomb a jet on its way to Cuba?
Do you think the Guardian is trying to set Snowden up?
Monkie
(1,301 posts)with some of that outsourced to that same $80 billion dollar a year industry Snowden is exposing and threatening.
i think its bizarre that we are "following" a whistleblower on his trip around the world as he dances away from the grips of the most powerful nation in the world. dont you?
i seriously doubt they would bomb a jet these days, although there is a history of this criminality
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655
you are saying that the US would not kidnap its own citizen if they have americans on secret kill lists?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8343123.stm
i dont think the guardian is setting Snowden up, thats silly, but i do think that it would be stupid of Snowden to not throw out false trails.
cali
(114,904 posts)with Snowden aboard. And I don't the ptb think that either.
Nor do I think rendition is possible at this juncture. I thought it was possibility in HK, but even there he was under the eye of Chinese security.
I do think that behind the scenes there will be threats and retaliation.
Monkie
(1,301 posts)i already said i dont think they would shoot it down, or make it have a "accident" by using microwave or EMP based weapon systems to disable the electronics, it is possible for them to do this but they might not want to martyr him, or risk the fact that he could have some kind of "dead mans trigger" where he has to log in every X hours to prevent a huge document leak.
but since we are talking international airspace, and the US has no problem breaking international law under obama to kill americans who are only suspects or by "signature strikes" without even knowing who or what they are killing, and how many children are there. so i dont think it is strange at all to expect them to send jets to intercept a plane with snowden on it and force it to return to US soil.
if he is a US citizen suspected of serious crimes in international territory and you really think the US wont claim they have the legal right to act?
cali
(114,904 posts)nor will it make it have an "accident".
You're getting silly.
Monkie
(1,301 posts)how many times have i said i DONT think they will make it have a accident?
just dont say it is impossible is all i am saying.
i think i gave pretty good reasons why the US would feel justified in diverting a plane in international airspace to the US by using a threat. i do respect you but you cant just say "no they wont", thats not a discussion, and where is your basis for saying they wont?
how am i being silly, you are making statements of fact, without anything to back it up and i am being silly when i give concrete examples?
MADem
(135,425 posts)English language news outlets are grabbing that stuff and translating it, and maybe making a phone call and getting a quote here or there.
Monkie
(1,301 posts)lol
MADem
(135,425 posts)Euro cops can be quite efficient when they put their mind to it.
Russia has direct flights to, and warm relations with, Cuba. Cuba is BFF w/Venezuela.
Perhaps Iceland has already told him not to come.
Monkie
(1,301 posts)all of them do.
why would he risk going through international airspace when he is already legally safe in europe?
MADem
(135,425 posts)He's safe in Russia only through the grace and favor of Pootie. For now.
Monkie
(1,301 posts)do you make these blanket statements??????????
if he made a asylum claim in any of the member states of the EU they would, by law have to consider his claim.
a claim of political prosecution IS grounds for a asylum claim in all the member states of the EU.
he has done the member states of the EU a HUGE favor already with his leaks.
he is a possible witness and whistleblower exposing unprecedented criminality by google and yahoo and microsoft et al.
MADem
(135,425 posts)and a security threat to the NATO alliance, at best.
Convicting people when they commit crimes is what is supposed to happen. Prosecution--the word you used--is not PERSECUTION--and this guy is not being persecuted. He stole stuff. He gave -- or sold -- it to other nation(s). You can get out the lipstick and try to dress that up, but it is what it is.
If you think he's "done the EU a HUGE favor" I have a broken bridge for sale in the Pacific Northwest.
No asylum in Europe. They'll "consider his claim" and laugh their asses off and tell him no. If he's physically present he'd be arrested and processed for extradition.
Go on and think otherwise if it makes you feel good. In time, you'll see.
Monkie
(1,301 posts)i have a news flash for you, your nationalistic jingoistic worldview belongs in the dark ages.
you trust your own newspapers as beacons of democracy, while they are owned by 1%-ers and arms corps like GE, but other countries news media are only mouthpieces of the state?
you have your own government presiding over the largest and most complete surveillance state this planet has ever seen but you dare judge the freedoms the chinese or russians have?
another news flash, how many illegal wars of aggression has china started this century, or russia for that matter?
the days of the US being able to judge other nations or preach about democracy are long gone.
one thing to remember, which i know is not easy, is that the laws of the US mean nothing to the rest of the world, all that matters is international law, the law of the land, and the international treaties that countries sign.
it is also obvious that you know NOTHING about the EU and its laws. NOTHING about the laws in the member states.
how can you make these claims without knowing ANYTHING about the law? it just makes you look like ignorant
it is so simple, YOU dont get to decide how Snowden is viewed by judges applying the laws of the member states of the EU.
you might THINK that when your politicians rant that other countries will ignore their laws, their court systems, international law to please you, but that is beyond wishful thinking its just delusional and borderline prejudiced.
one example is hong kong, how did it work out for the US there threatening them?
they just stuck a huge middle finger up at you and allowed snowden to leave, based on their laws.
even if the US produce a arrest warrant, accuse him of a crime, snowden has the opportunity to challenge that in a court of law in the country he is in, these judges are not paid to do the bidding of the US, they uphold their own laws and international law.
snowden can challenge the validity of the claims the US makes.
he can appeal to the laws all EU member states have that forbid extradition for crimes for which the death penalty can be sought.
he can also ask for asylum in any member state of the EU and claim that he is being prosecuted for political reasons.
many rouge states claim that the person they want to prosecute for political crimes is a thief or a murderer or any reason, and it is not up to the US to decide if that is true, it is for a independent judge to decide if that is so or not.
and the nice thing about the EU is, if he choses to fight extradition, or apply for asylum, which are two separate things, he can take those cases ALL the way up to the court of appeals of those member states, and THEN after exhausting that, he still has the european court of appeal left.
if snowden chose to stay in a EU country it could take YEARS before he is extradited, the UK had been trying to extradite a hate preacher, abu hamza, for almost 8 years before the final appeal was finished.
this abu hamza is blind and has no hands because a landmine blew them off in afghanistan, so i dont think stealing a couple of documents is going to get you snowden extradited any time fast.
one last news flash, europe has extremely strict privacy laws, laws on data-protection, and snowden's leaks have done the rule of law in the nation states a huge favour, this might be hard to understand if you are twisting yourself into knots trying to defend the NSA, but the nation states of europe have no great love of the NSA, they dont like their companies being spied on, their politicians, and if you spent just a few minutes a day looking out of that isolated bubble you appear to live in and actually paid attention to news that was not served up to you by your own 1% you might actually learn something about how the rest of the world works.
MADem
(135,425 posts)There's an expression--in case English isn't your first language--that goes "Whoever smelt it, dealt it."
You're the one trotting out all the loaded words, here. Not me.
Hate!
Jingoistic!
Ignorant!
Delusional!
Borderline prejudiced!
Isolated bubble!
Twisting yourself in knots!
One thing you do have right, though--the laws of the US--or Europe-- do mean nothing to the rest of the world, particularly those folks hacking, stealing, and installing malware around the globe from Unit 61398.
You do notice that when Hong Kong was "threatened," (as you term it) your little friend Eddie "voluntarily and freely" got on a plane and hauled ass out of there? Why do you suppose he did that?
Or was that just a coincidence? Move along, citizens...nothing to see here!
I don't think I'm the one here who "doesn't know anything about the law..."
Monkie
(1,301 posts)they are only loaded if they are not used factually, and i pride myself on my factual use of language.
Edward Snowden is not my friend, i am not the one interested in personalities, i schooled you twice about the law in europe and you pretend it does not exists. i notice you manage to complete ignore what i say, which i understand completely, based exactly on those "loaded words" i used to describe you and your position.
at least in between my "loaded words" i bring indisputable facts to the table, unlike many who live in the "reality based community" bubble. all those "reality based" dreamers were salivating at the thought that snowden would be back in the US right after demanding his return from hong kong, but i called it right from the beginning that the chinese would not accept this arrogance.
MADem
(135,425 posts)Now we learn that you "schooled" me! Not once, but TWICE! With "indisputable facts" that you've invented, replete with imagined 'reality based dreamers,' all by yourself. I do credit you with an active imagination, but that's about as far as I'm willing to go.
Perhaps if your conversation was relevant to the actual issues, and not your imaginings of Snowden marching through the streets of Europe to the invented cheers of fictitious assembled crowds, we could have a conversation.
Instead, you want to paint a picture of your own inventions, and try to tell me it's a photograph of an actual event.
Since you're so good at "calling it right from the beginning," we'll take your predictions now--not after events have progressed--and we'll hold you to them, oh Oracle of DU.
Monkie
(1,301 posts)if he leaves russia it is either in a plane or in a "diplomatic bag" by car.
if he leaves russia via international airspace his plane will be intercepted and he will be renditioned to a federal facility.
if he flies or drives to a country in the EU he will have up to 8 years to fight his extradition if he is refused asylum.
the last possibility is that the US somehow persuades the russians to "invade" the international area at the airport and hand him to the US.
simple.
im no oracle at all, im just not wrapped up in this warped worldview that some seem to have here.
MADem
(135,425 posts)27. i gave them here already?
if he leaves russia it is either in a plane or in a "diplomatic bag" by car.
if he leaves russia via international airspace his plane will be intercepted and he will be renditioned to a federal facility.
if he flies or drives to a country in the EU he will have up to 8 years to fight his extradition if he is refused asylum.
the last possibility is that the US somehow persuades the russians to "invade" the international area at the airport and hand him to the US.
simple.
im no oracle at all, im just not wrapped up in this warped worldview that some seem to have here.
No "happily ever after" with Fidel or Maduro? No "Hail Mary" flight to Iceland? How do you think that the US will "intercept" his plane, pray tell?
I really want specifics, now--a couple of fighters will divert the craft, do you think? Force it down by sailing a missile across the bow? I need details!
And what does "up to eight years" mean? "Up to eight years" could be as brief as a day, or as long as eight years.
I kind of doubt the Russians need to "invade" their own international terminal. They have security personnel there already, who could--if needs must, and they decided to go that way--simply amble up, take Mister Snowden into custody and hand him, quietly, to a couple of FBI minders.
Monkie
(1,301 posts)fidel wont work, russia is not the same "enemy" to the US it used to be.
you know the "invade" was a joke, to signify the fact that he is not currently on russian soil but in no-mans land.
up to 8 years means exactly that, if he were to chose to fight extradition from a EU nation state through the national courts right up to the ECHR, the european court for human rights, then it could take 8 years as it did for abu hamza.
and how rendition works? the US has a long history of kidnapping people and holding them without trail at GITMO, so plenty of practice.
there are carriers in the Mediterranean, the US could fly planes to the UK and ask its poodle for permission to take off from their, a few jets is all it would take to divert a private plane to a destination from which snowden could be flown to a federal facility.
its not rocket science.
but the one thing the US cant do, is force other nations to believe its own delusions.
MADem
(135,425 posts)All that kind of stuff does is pull you down--you'd think you would have figured that out by now.
Again--it "could" take eight years; and it "could" take two weeks. Or the entire scenario could be wishful thinking, straight from your imagination.
Are you seriously saying that they're going to hold Snowden at Gitmo? You know, the place Obama wants to close, and Congress won't move forward with the authorization?
I don't think it's the US with delusions in this particular instance.
Why would an aircraft on a carrier in the Med fly all the way north to intercept a plane flying from Moscow to Cuba? That makes no sense whatsoever, to say nothing of being an enormous waste of fuel and, absent any assault against our citizenry from the aircraft in question, pretty close to an act of war.
What will you do if Snowden surrenders? Insist that he was drugged or forced? Not give him the benefit of his own thought processes and reflections?
Monkie
(1,301 posts)if you look at the other conversation i am having, in this thread with the gentleman who is actually having a civil discussion with me my tone is totally different? and the same is so on other threads.
but you have been smearing and twisting and playing out your straw man fantasies for quite a while, even now you still will not actually address what i DO say, because that would mean actually looking at your own position and seeing the gaping holes in it.
and you are not the only one, now i like to think i am a patient man, but when you have a whole bushel of people going of on their fantasy trip to "reality town" where the US is the home of the free surrounded by evil commies and paulite conspirators then after a while of trying to speak about actual facts with them gets pretty tiring.
to start with i never said i thought HE would end up in gitmo, i said the US had plenty of practice renditioning considering all the years of kidnapping and holding people without trail at gitmo, two completely different things, things i expect a grown man to instantly understand.
now you want or expect me to predict with precision how long a court case with multiple appeals takes? doing that would be delusional, i gave you a concrete example of a real case that has only just concluded after 8 years, and that guy was a actual terrorist, so i think that gives you a pretty good baseline on how long it could take. if someone where to say that stealing a few documents to blow the whistle on criminality by google et al on a massive scale is espionage then i dont think its strange to suggest that the courts in the EU will be more willing to consider that favourably than a terrorist hate preacher, that i have to now repeat this fact to you for the third time maybe explains why i have so little patience for you.
you asked me specifically how the US could rendition snowden if he was flying in international airspace, this is a very stupid question to ask, you could of found the answer yourself in less time than it took you to type the nonsense you just did.
i answered by giving you the two closest points to the european mainland where i know there would be the possibility for the US to launch planes from. what is so strange about that.
and you mention acts of war, massive spying on the scale your government does is not pretty close to a act of war?
launching illegal drone strikes is not close to a act of war?
you speak about waste of fuel, more nonsense, snowden is blowing the whistle on a $80 billion a year snout-in-the-trough industry yet you talk about fuel waste?
you ask me why i speak to you the way you do?
you are the only person i am going to have to stop giving the benefit of having his own though processes and reflections, i just cant believe how anyone can be so willfully ignorant, i can only conclude you are doing this on purpose.
so in the end, if you dont like my tone, hit the alert button, and let others be the judge if what i say is reasonable or not, or you could try to respond with some intelligence and not use strawman attacks and other childish debating techniques that might impress children but only cause me to lose my patience with you.
simple or not?
MADem
(135,425 posts)And I don't call you names when I reply to you. Which is something you just might try, if you're sincere and not shopping an agenda. But evidently, you are incapable, you persist with:
==smearing and twisting and playing out your straw man fantasies
==people going of (SIC) on their fantasy trip to "reality town"
==i just cant believe how anyone can be so willfully ignorant
==you could try to respond with some intelligence and not use strawman attacks and other childish debating techniques that might impress children
Simple or not, you ask? Why, very simple indeed. By your words we know you.
cali
(114,904 posts)if you think that most European countries would look at this as a political prisoner case, you're wrong.
Monkie
(1,301 posts)i know you have been keeping up with this case so i dont understand this statement.
google et al have been exposed as being involved in one of the largest breaches of data-protection laws in known history.
the reason for this criminality was political, spying, by definition is a political act.
Snowden is a possible witness who could have evidence of this criminality.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)Monkie
(1,301 posts)i read your post earlier but i had no idea what i could possibly add to it, great minds roll in the same gutter?
i keep meaning to have a look at the comments to see what great pearls of wisdom others had to offer 
alcibiades_mystery
(36,437 posts)
Monkie
(1,301 posts)personally im not optimistic of his chances of staying out of the hand of the US government if he goes to a country the US will feel they can get away with pushing around, or renditioning from.
i have two rules about betting, i dont bet with crazy people, and i only bet if i am 100% sure of winning.
and for the record, im not suggesting you are crazy.
alcibiades_mystery
(36,437 posts)
Snowden will be booked into a federal facility by Wednesday at the latest. Obviously, I'm just throwing claims out there, but I don't see this going another way.
Monkie
(1,301 posts)so the only options are leaving in a diplomatic "bag" or flying.
and as i said in a earlier post, if i wanted to stay out of a federal facility i would not be flying through international airspace.
alcibiades_mystery
(36,437 posts)It's one thing to put Julian Assange up in a London embassy. Dude is wanted for questioning by Sweden. You can hole him up in there and wink at domestic constituencies under the illusion of thumbing your nose at a superpower, a particularly popular position among various voting blocs in Latin America. It plays well with them, and doesn't really cost you anything; it has few consequences, as nobody is really going to threaten trade relations or any real business interests over piddling little Julian Assange - the whole thing is a show. We should note that there is no felony warrant for Julian Assange coming out of the United States.
It's quite another to harbor a person who has been charged with espionage and who is being actively sought for a felony by the US federal government. The State Department presses a button and multiple spigots dry up in seconds. What's the angle? What is Ecuador's interest in doing that? I don't see any. "Thumb its nose at the US?" Come on. There's money involved. Only teenagers deal in symbolic diplomacy. Hell, even Raul Castro's Cuba would rather negotiate X,Y, and Z deal than put this guy up for a few days. Venezuela? Really? To what end? There are oil contracts and distribution routes that require stamping, that can get suddenly very, very slow. Hong Kong told him to beat sand. The options are drying up. He'll negotiate a surrender and probably fly into New York for processing in the next few days.
Monkie
(1,301 posts)i agree totally that the idea that he is going to be safe in a south american country for any length of time is a myth, this is the traditional "playground" where the US made its first steps baby steps of subverting democracies.
but the EU is a bit different, yes they are allies but he has exposed lawbreaking on a unprecedented scale, people in the US are focusing on one aspect of this only. but google and yahoo and the other companies broke EU law, and laws of all the member states of the EU. he might even have more evidence of this. the US has no economic power over the EU that wont cause it equal damage.
the EU member states have laws and courts where he can fight extradition or for asylum for years and years.
if you dont believe me look at the case of abu hamza, a blind hate preacher with no hands due to a "accident" with a mine in afghanistan, it took the UK 8 years to extradite him, and he was actually preaching hate, a terrorist.
this cant be said of snowden, he has a good case for asylum on political grounds.
alcibiades_mystery
(36,437 posts)Not one. The marked non-specific nature of the claim is itself enough to suggest it can't stand. Which country will do it? Italy? Portugal? Which? None. The US has plenty of economic leverage on particular EU states
Monkie
(1,301 posts)examples.
im not sure i understand what you mean by non-specific nature of the claim?
if the US could easily bully nation states in the EU then why did it fail to do so with china?
why has russia not handed him over?
the VP of the EU commission vivian reding, commissioner for justice,fundamental rights and citizenship, happens to be the lady who negotiated with the US with regard to implications of the FISA legislation for the EU and its laws, because it was obvious at the time they would breach EU law. from the public fury expressed by her regarding the revelations about NSA it would seem she was lied to.
and in case you do not understand europe, the european commission members are not voted for, they are appointed by member states.
you are glib about the leverage you think the US has, but the fear that can be seen from the public reactions of google and apple and the other tech companies involved is more telling than your statements.
they have considerable assets, and considerable profits to protect.
microsoft was hit with a total of $1,9 billion dollars in fines just for some small anti-trust matters to do with interoperability and the inclusion of a media player and browser with windows, the US i believe gave MS a pass on anti-trust.
so please, i am interested in your theories of american preeminence, but i dont think there is any basis in fact for your assertions.
alcibiades_mystery
(36,437 posts)morningfog
(18,115 posts)I'd be willing to bet against it happening before the end of this year's cup.
alcibiades_mystery
(36,437 posts) morningfog
(18,115 posts)Wednesday, giving you the benefit of what would have been game 7.
Union Scribe
(7,099 posts)He kissed it, shouted "what up DU?!" and passed it to the goalie. 
alcibiades_mystery
(36,437 posts)I don't care, though. Too busy celebrating the HAAAAAAAAAAWKKKKKKKKSSSSSSSS!!!!!
morningfog
(18,115 posts)Still no capture. I'm having a good run of luck.
alcibiades_mystery
(36,437 posts) 
backscatter712
(26,357 posts)
SidDithers
(44,333 posts)
Scurrilous
(38,687 posts)re: criminal behavior, do not @#$% w/ the Feds. If they make you a priority, they have unlimited resources at their disposal to get your @#$ and put you away. And Federal time is hard time. Seriously, do not @#$% w/ those people.