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Yavin4

(35,437 posts)
Mon Jun 24, 2013, 10:27 AM Jun 2013

For argument's sake, let's say Obama closed Gitmo, ended the drone program, ended the NSA program

and the terrorist attack in Boston occurs or some other terrorist attack occurs.

What do you think the political fall out would be for Obama and the Democratic party?

Any sane person knows that these are completely unrelated events, but I've lived through the Ronald "tough on defense" Reagan years, and I've lived through 2002-2004 where the Republicans gained control of our government based solely on 9/11. The Republicans would demagouge this issue and keep the Dems out of power for decades.

Yes, you can stand on principle and lose elections to the Republicans who would not only maintain the drone and NSA programs but would go much farther with actual invasions of other countries.

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For argument's sake, let's say Obama closed Gitmo, ended the drone program, ended the NSA program (Original Post) Yavin4 Jun 2013 OP
How about we start by supporting the bipartisan bill introduced by 8 senators to curb secret law" think Jun 2013 #1
That would be a good first step nadinbrzezinski Jun 2013 #6
YES!! YES!! YES!!!!!! All these people who are pissed off at Obama for NSA leaks... Liberal_Stalwart71 Jun 2013 #49
Ok, so let me get this straight... im1013 Jun 2013 #2
Mis-characterization of my OP n/t Yavin4 Jun 2013 #3
Nope, it's a damn good summarisation of your OP. idwiyo Jun 2013 #16
Yup, that's pretty much where they are nadinbrzezinski Jun 2013 #5
You don't read well. Please re-read the OP's post. Liberal_Stalwart71 Jun 2013 #50
That would make perfect sense Romulus Quirinus Jun 2013 #4
Not saying that it does Yavin4 Jun 2013 #8
So you're saying that we should kill citizens of other countries and put the lives of ours Romulus Quirinus Jun 2013 #11
No. I'm saying political realities are what they are Yavin4 Jun 2013 #15
:/ nt Romulus Quirinus Jun 2013 #17
Right. It's OK to run a torture prison, execute people on a win, spy on everyone because otherwise idwiyo Jun 2013 #21
Republicans demogogue every issue AgingAmerican Jun 2013 #33
Fear of political loss as an argument to keep a morally bankrupt status quo think Jun 2013 #13
Why is up to "bold leadership"? Shouldn't the people demand it? Yavin4 Jun 2013 #14
What are we demanding? If you mean the people should demand the govt follow the law think Jun 2013 #20
It's up to the people to demand it from their leaders Yavin4 Jun 2013 #26
it was called occupy think Jun 2013 #28
"was" - past tense n/t Yavin4 Jun 2013 #30
Thanks to the corporations and private NSA contractors think Jun 2013 #32
We voted twice to end this shit LondonReign2 Jun 2013 #31
All that would matter is what the media and voters thought pnwmom Jun 2013 #22
If what you believe is true, then we are well and truly fucked. Romulus Quirinus Jun 2013 #24
Much better media and people think how damn incompetent the government is because idwiyo Jun 2013 #29
But it polls well, man! Think of the POLLS! nt Romulus Quirinus Jun 2013 #46
:) idwiyo Jun 2013 #47
... that's grotesque. sibelian Jun 2013 #7
I don't think that way. Yavin4 Jun 2013 #9
It is not always about politics Harmony Blue Jun 2013 #19
It's your OPINION of what you THINK political reality is. idwiyo Jun 2013 #23
Perhaps I missed it nadinbrzezinski Jun 2013 #10
+1 idwiyo Jun 2013 #25
On gitmo, zero consequences bhikkhu Jun 2013 #12
I don't know. Neither do you. Pale Blue Dot Jun 2013 #18
Why is it up to the "leader"? Where are the people? Yavin4 Jun 2013 #35
I'm sorry, where did I say "we're not blind followers"? Make sure you link, lest it seem Pale Blue Dot Jun 2013 #37
Maybe not you, but there have several posts about "Obama-bots" or "blind followers", etc. Yavin4 Jun 2013 #40
They are called the leaders for some good reason - they lead! -- n/t mazzarro Jun 2013 #51
So we have to implement Republican policies AgingAmerican Jun 2013 #27
Ending wars would be a great first step and a great excuse to scale it back. JaneyVee Jun 2013 #34
Moral, ethical, or political Savannahmann Jun 2013 #36
Lets say he continued all of those practices... NCTraveler Jun 2013 #38
Oh wait....damn. morningfog Jun 2013 #42
Well 911 didn't hurt Bush usGovOwesUs3Trillion Jun 2013 #39
By all means let's keep torturing, killing innocents and violating civil liberties because we are morningfog Jun 2013 #41
What happens when the "the big bad republies" gain power? Yavin4 Jun 2013 #43
Glenn Greenwald would still find an excuse to portray Obama as the next Hitler. baldguy Jun 2013 #44
id suppport it drhobo Jun 2013 #45
DU, liberal and conservative commentators and the bloggosphere will STILL blame Obama Liberal_Stalwart71 Jun 2013 #48
Aww, do you need some Kleenex?! bigwillq Jun 2013 #54
Not really. But thanks for the offer. ;) Liberal_Stalwart71 Jun 2013 #56
Oh don't talk sense Hekate Jun 2013 #52
More kids going hungry, more student debt, lower wages, eliminated healthcare... gulliver Jun 2013 #53
I suppose it is better to have a party that supports a militaristic authoritarian state that wins Douglas Carpenter Jun 2013 #55
 

think

(11,641 posts)
1. How about we start by supporting the bipartisan bill introduced by 8 senators to curb secret law"
Mon Jun 24, 2013, 10:32 AM
Jun 2013
After NSA Leaks, Senators Re-Introduce Bill To Reduce Patriot Act Secrecy
Andy Greenberg, Forbes Staff
6/11/2013


While many in the U.S. government and the media are busy calling for the extradition and prosecution of NSA leaker Edward Snowden, one group of senators is working to change the laws that allowed the secret surveillance his leaks exposed.

Senators Jeff Merkley and Mike Lee, along with six other legislators, on Tuesday introduced a new bill that would require the Attorney General to declassify “significant” opinions of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, which is meant to oversee the scope and targets of surveillance by agencies like the NSA under the Patriot Act....

~Snip~

Full article:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/andygreenberg/2013/06/11/eight-senators-re-introduce-a-bill-to-reduce-secrecy-of-patriot-act-surveillance/

 

Liberal_Stalwart71

(20,450 posts)
49. YES!! YES!! YES!!!!!! All these people who are pissed off at Obama for NSA leaks...
Mon Jun 24, 2013, 06:18 PM
Jun 2013

...have said absolutely NOTHING about congressional oversight!!

Call Congress!! Demand that they exercise their given *constitutional* authority to oversee exective war powers!!

Repeal the Patriot Act!!!!!!!

im1013

(633 posts)
2. Ok, so let me get this straight...
Mon Jun 24, 2013, 10:41 AM
Jun 2013

It's ok to condone torture, remote killing of innocent civilians, ignoring the Geneva Conventions, all the
while spying on EVERY citizen of a supposedly free society...
AS LONG AS A DEMOCRAT IS IN OFFICE?!?!

Seriously???

 

nadinbrzezinski

(154,021 posts)
5. Yup, that's pretty much where they are
Mon Jun 24, 2013, 10:46 AM
Jun 2013

Like the bushies, it is ok as long as my side does it. Moral center...what moral center?

Yavin4

(35,437 posts)
8. Not saying that it does
Mon Jun 24, 2013, 10:47 AM
Jun 2013

I am saying that the politics of the issues do matter because one party will demagouge it to gain control.

Romulus Quirinus

(524 posts)
11. So you're saying that we should kill citizens of other countries and put the lives of ours
Mon Jun 24, 2013, 10:51 AM
Jun 2013

in measurably greater danger while delaying justice for innocent men and protecting the surveillance state, all in order to keep up appearances. Right?

I just want to be sure we're all on the same page, here.

Yavin4

(35,437 posts)
15. No. I'm saying political realities are what they are
Mon Jun 24, 2013, 01:46 PM
Jun 2013

If Obama had took down the security state and an attack happened like the one in Boston, EVEN THOUGH THERE IS NO EVIDENCE CORRELATING THE TWO ACTS, then the Republicans would demagouge the issue, win elections, and restore the security state.

If you want to dismantle the security state, then you need to rally the people to your cause and not wait for Obama to do it.

That's what I am saying.

idwiyo

(5,113 posts)
21. Right. It's OK to run a torture prison, execute people on a win, spy on everyone because otherwise
Mon Jun 24, 2013, 01:52 PM
Jun 2013

Republicans will be unhappy and MIGHT gain power again.

Damn grand 11 dimensional chess game that is!

 

AgingAmerican

(12,958 posts)
33. Republicans demogogue every issue
Mon Jun 24, 2013, 02:09 PM
Jun 2013

...and have been losing elections as a result.

Your whole premise is absurd and defeatist.

 

think

(11,641 posts)
13. Fear of political loss as an argument to keep a morally bankrupt status quo
Mon Jun 24, 2013, 10:54 AM
Jun 2013

is a bit pathetic is it not?

I want bold leadership that knows how to defend morally correct decisions in the face of fearful ignorance created by the Republican / corporate smear machine....

Yavin4

(35,437 posts)
14. Why is up to "bold leadership"? Shouldn't the people demand it?
Mon Jun 24, 2013, 01:43 PM
Jun 2013

Regardless of who or what are the leaders?

 

think

(11,641 posts)
20. What are we demanding? If you mean the people should demand the govt follow the law
Mon Jun 24, 2013, 01:51 PM
Jun 2013

and quit the era of secret law I concur....

Yavin4

(35,437 posts)
26. It's up to the people to demand it from their leaders
Mon Jun 24, 2013, 01:57 PM
Jun 2013

Where are the marches? Where are the demonstrations? Where are the daily protests?

pnwmom

(108,976 posts)
22. All that would matter is what the media and voters thought
Mon Jun 24, 2013, 01:53 PM
Jun 2013

and they would be likely to think taking these measures had made us susceptible to the attack.

Romulus Quirinus

(524 posts)
24. If what you believe is true, then we are well and truly fucked.
Mon Jun 24, 2013, 01:55 PM
Jun 2013

Because you will never own the media, and therefore you will never own the government if the people are that childish and that stupid.

We will have passed beyond the event horizon, before which we could have turned back.

Now, if you're arguing that we have it coming, well, maybe, but I'd rather avoid it.

idwiyo

(5,113 posts)
29. Much better media and people think how damn incompetent the government is because
Mon Jun 24, 2013, 02:03 PM
Jun 2013

even though it spent all those tens of billions of dollars, it could not prevent Boston AND can't even find one whistleblower. Despite continuous torture of people in Gitmo, extrajudicial killings, and making a mockery of Constitution.

Brilliant strategy!

Harmony Blue

(3,978 posts)
19. It is not always about politics
Mon Jun 24, 2013, 01:51 PM
Jun 2013

but about the greater good. That is what separates Democrats from Republicans.


 

nadinbrzezinski

(154,021 posts)
10. Perhaps I missed it
Mon Jun 24, 2013, 10:51 AM
Jun 2013

But we did have an attack in Boston right? And it gets better, we had the shiny needle pointed to us twice by the FSB?

People far more qualified than you have actually said that this mass surveillance actually hurts the effort to stop terrorists. So I think it's time you brew yourself a strong cup of coffee and develop a moral center independent of who sits in the WH and what letter is behind their name.

It is not about terrorists or commies, or anything else you fear.

bhikkhu

(10,715 posts)
12. On gitmo, zero consequences
Mon Jun 24, 2013, 10:51 AM
Jun 2013

on the drone program, if we didn't have one there would be panic at all the other nations drone programs. Think back to when the soviets launched Sputnik and we had nothing. If we didn't have a drone program we'd wind up with a big drone program, particularly if we had soldiers dying on the battlefield because we had no drone program.

On the NSA surveillance, I think if we had no program and the Boston bombing happened, or certainly 9/11, or the cold war, or the soviet invasion of Afghanistan, or various things in the middle east - we'd wind up with a surveillance program. Perhaps we'd develop a program out of necessity, then sit back and worry about how it might be abused. Then we'd come up with something like the FISA courts. Then maybe we'd still worry, and maybe we'd come up with a better set of standards that would let people worry a little less about abuse.

We probably will.

Pale Blue Dot

(16,831 posts)
18. I don't know. Neither do you.
Mon Jun 24, 2013, 01:51 PM
Jun 2013

This smacks of "I think Obama is too weak to do the right thing."

A strong leader takes chances in order to do the right thing. A weak leader tries to consolidate control in the face of threats.

Which one is the President?

Yavin4

(35,437 posts)
35. Why is it up to the "leader"? Where are the people?
Mon Jun 24, 2013, 02:15 PM
Jun 2013

You cannot post: "we're not blind followers", and then complain about "Obama not leading". That doesn't make any sense.

Pale Blue Dot

(16,831 posts)
37. I'm sorry, where did I say "we're not blind followers"? Make sure you link, lest it seem
Mon Jun 24, 2013, 02:28 PM
Jun 2013

like you've created a straw man, which only weak people who don't trust their own arguments would do.

Yavin4

(35,437 posts)
40. Maybe not you, but there have several posts about "Obama-bots" or "blind followers", etc.
Mon Jun 24, 2013, 03:10 PM
Jun 2013

It's not logical to complain about people following Obama and then later complain about Obama's lack of leadership.

 

AgingAmerican

(12,958 posts)
27. So we have to implement Republican policies
Mon Jun 24, 2013, 02:01 PM
Jun 2013

cuz otherwise the Republicans will get mad and say mean stuff? And that will doom us for decades? Really?

lol

 

Savannahmann

(3,891 posts)
36. Moral, ethical, or political
Mon Jun 24, 2013, 02:21 PM
Jun 2013

Your argument seems to be that the most important and the overriding concern is the political. What happens if we don't do this? Yet polling coming out since this started seems to indicate that the majority are concerned with the moral, and the ethical. Apparently the one political aspect that the experts didn't consider is what happens when the sheeple learn that they are being watched constantly by Big Brother ala 1984?

They should have. Eisenhower let the lie that Gary Powers was just doing a weather research flight go out because he was assured by the CIA that there was no way that the Soviets would ever capture him alive, and even if they did, there was no way that the plane would survive because of the self destruct devices. After all they gave Powers a suicide pill with his parachute.

In 1961, the CIA promised Kennedy that the Navy would not be needed, because their plan was perfect, and the bay of pigs invasion would go off without a hitch. Then the CIA was furious when amazingly, JFK actually refused to send the Navy in to rescue/support the bay of pigs invasion.

The intelligence agencies have a long history of making promises and assurances that they can't possibly keep. So the first question, the absolute first question you should ask is what will the people think when they learn of this? If someone was able to convince President Obama that the people would be fine with it, after President Obama saw his popularity and support soar during the primary when promising to shut it down then there were at least two fools in that conversation.

But they decided the political was the way to go. Keep the programs, and that way if there was a terrorist attack, they could shunt some of the blame and keep clear of the defecation that was going through the rotary oscillator. Meanwhile, the people are pissed, because for nearly twelve years, we've been hearing about this war on terror, and watching excessive programs, immoral actions, and unethical people get away with abominations all in the name of the war on terror.

My Father told me many times, never do something that I could not explain as moral, or ethical. When I had to start parsing, and explaining how this wasn't exactly prohibited by some vague language or ill written rule, I was already down two strikes. The first doing the thing, the second, being unable to defend the thing. The example he used was breaking a window on a car. I'd better have a real good reason, like a baby or an animal inside that needed rescue, before I broke it. If I had a good reason, I would almost certainly get out without any trouble, but if I just broke it because I felt like it, I would have no such defense.

In other words, the ethical and moral grounds would trump the political. Doubt me? Imagine if Zimmerman had shot Travon Martin as he was breaking into a home. Zimmerman could have been the most racist son of a bitch on the planet, and gotten away with it no problem, because he had an ethical excuse for the action as opposed to the current situation, where he has no such fallback position.

What about when people find out? The first question, the first position, the first thing you should consider. What do I tell people when it is found out? Am I doing the wrong thing for the right reasons?

The answers given by the Administration, and the people involved clearly show that nobody has asked themselves that simple question at any point of this debacle. Nobody wondered what they would say if people found out, because it was Top Secret, and they were prohibited from finding out. So now President Obama and the administration are floundering, screaming that Snowden is a criminal, and looking even more incompetent because they can't convince Governments that they were spying on that they should cough up the traitor for the sake of amiable relations, amiable relations that ain't gonna exist for years now anyway.

If they had considered the inevitable question of what to say when people found out, the administration would be in much better condition than they are now. The younger voters, the ones who turned out in droves to support Candidate Obama, are dumping him, they're the tech gen right? http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jun/13/poll-obama-nsa-leaks-trust

We keep making the same mistake. All the way through this administration, we keep trying to be kinder gentler Republicans, instead of the party of the smart. We trumpet our smart power, and then accept a slightly less odorous version of a program that stinks to high heaven. Our defense seems to be just as ill conceived. Well, we're doing something wrong, but we're doing it less wrong than the last guy. Let's say that stupid sentiment is true, what does that say about the next guy? Will he be more or less evil than this one?

The political should be considered, but the first consideration should always be what do we say to the people when we get caught. Can we defend our actions? Can we justify our positions? If you can't, then the political ramifications of not doing it, are far outweighed by doing it in the first place, and getting caught.

 

usGovOwesUs3Trillion

(2,022 posts)
39. Well 911 didn't hurt Bush
Mon Jun 24, 2013, 02:34 PM
Jun 2013

Most tend to rally around the flag/admin when under attack.

Most realize nothing can stop lone wolf attacks anyway, just look at Iraq and we had tanks, jets, drones, and spying... Not to mention Boston.

It's a fools errand, besides the spy apparatus isn't aimed at terrorists, it's aimed at US.

We need leaders who have something else to sell beyond fear.

 

morningfog

(18,115 posts)
41. By all means let's keep torturing, killing innocents and violating civil liberties because we are
Mon Jun 24, 2013, 03:11 PM
Jun 2013

afraid of the big bad republies ability to frame issues.

 

drhobo

(74 posts)
45. id suppport it
Mon Jun 24, 2013, 04:29 PM
Jun 2013

Ending those programs would go a long way towards winning over this libertarian. Giving up privacy and freedom is too high a price for security

 

Liberal_Stalwart71

(20,450 posts)
48. DU, liberal and conservative commentators and the bloggosphere will STILL blame Obama
Mon Jun 24, 2013, 06:16 PM
Jun 2013

Listen to me carefully:

There is absolutely NOTHING this president could ever do that is right. NOTHING!

There will always be people here and elsewhere who will complain that he did or didn't do this or that right.

Everyone thinks they can do the president's job better than he can.

People talk so much shit on the message forums and in commentary circles, but they wouldn't be able to handle this president's job for a day. Complaining gets harder when you're forced to GOVERN!!!

 

bigwillq

(72,790 posts)
54. Aww, do you need some Kleenex?!
Mon Jun 24, 2013, 07:28 PM
Jun 2013



POOR OBAMA!


He knew what he was getting himself into. I don't feel sorry for him, or anyone else that decides to run.

Please stop taking message forums so seriously. There's a lot of good people here and elsewhere that do good things, that work hard for progressive causes, that give their time, money and energy.

You, though, seem to only focus on the negative.

POOR OBAMA!

gulliver

(13,180 posts)
53. More kids going hungry, more student debt, lower wages, eliminated healthcare...
Mon Jun 24, 2013, 07:24 PM
Jun 2013

The Republicans would sweep to power if Obama took the positions some folks here think he should take. It would be another decade of darkness.

Douglas Carpenter

(20,226 posts)
55. I suppose it is better to have a party that supports a militaristic authoritarian state that wins
Mon Jun 24, 2013, 07:31 PM
Jun 2013

than as party that stands for freedom, justice and the constitution that might possibly under the wrong scenario loose.

Of course we could still loose even if we support a militaristic, authoritarian state. But, what's so great about freedom and independence anyway?

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