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[cthulu2016]

1. My imagination trumps your lame facts

I heard it clear as day because I desperately wanted to, and was told I was expected to, and I would be a more righteous person if I did.

And that settles it.

It really doesn't matter what was said.

What matters is that I had the guts and integrity to be hilariously wrong.

[Lurks Often]

3. Bravo, nicely put!

[krawhitham]

61. +1

on sarcasm alone

[Warpy]

2. Stereotyping. It's why human memory is not a good standard

for conviction or acquittal. Too many innocent people get sent to prison (or worse) because the superficially resemble the real criminal.

It's still irrelevant. The only relevant item in this case is Zimmerman's disobedience of the police dispatcher. Once he exited that truck, he became a vigilante.

That's illegal, folks.

Anything Martin might have said or done in his defense is irrelevant. Anything Zimmerman claims to have felt as he approached Martin is irrelevant.

This trial is about vigilantism.

[Lurks Often]

4. "Zimmerman's disobedience of the police dispatcher. Once he exited that truck, he became a vigilante

bad news, the dispatcher has just testified that they can not give orders to people, only suggestions or else they could be held liable if something happened as a result of their orders.

The dispatcher also testified that he could understand how Zimmerman might have misunderstood him.

[Warpy]

9. It still holds. Zimmerman was not a cop, he was a wannabe

and the second he exited that truck, he turned into an armed vigilante.

I don't care what that dispatcher has to say. Zimmerman was told to follow procedure and let the cops handle any problem.

You can tell the difference between left and right in this case. The left focuses on Martin's right to be where he was and to be alive today. The right focuses on Zimmerman's right to shoot an unarmed kid who sassed him.

[Lurks Often]

14. You are free to your opinion, but it is NOT supported by Florida law.

and Florida law and the evidence is what will determine the outcome of the trial.

[LanternWaste]

19. Evidence like calling a young man with a bottle of pop and bag of candy...

"evidence is what will determine the outcome of the trial...."

Evidence like calling a young man with a bottle of pop and bag of candy a "fucking punk"

[Lurks Often]

57. That is relevant evidence, although

testimony by the dispatcher stated it was said without anger and implied it was said in resignation that the people who were committing the crimes in the gated community always got away from the police. I believe it has been reported that there were some 400 calls to the local police regarding crimes or other suspicious activity in the space of 1/1/11 to the time of the shooting approximately 14 months later.

Also relevant is the EMT report from that night which details Zimmerman's injuries to the head.
http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/msnbc/sections/news/Zimmerman_Discovery.pdf Starting on page 183 I believe

In short I think the trial will boil down to two things:
Who PHYSICALLY assaulted the other first*

Did Zimmerman have reasonable fear of death or grave bodily harm (from having his head struck against the pavement **

*While some have speculated that Zimmerman brandished the gun and threatened Martin, there is no evidence that I have seen that supports that speculation

**Personally having my head struck against a hard object would put me in fear of "grave bodily harm or death"

[uppityperson]

62. "these assholes always get away" also. I hope they play the bit where Zimmy says Trayvon is

Walking, looking at things, is on drugs or something. Zimmy's words are evidence and glad they have them.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

69. Which Florida law? Zimmerman can't use Stand Your Ground as a defense.

[Lurks Often]

72. My response was to post #9

In that Zimmerman was under no legal obligation under Florida law to listen to the dispatcher. And that the dispatcher testified on the stand that they can not order people to do anything as it would make the dispatcher, in his official role, liable for anything that person did or suffered.

The defense is not going for a SYG as a defense, but for the far simpler to prove Self Defense.
While this is oversimplification due to space, To prove that it wasn't self defense the State will need to prove that a) Zimmerman started the physical fight either by striking the first blow or that b) he brandished the gun and made threats and/or that c) no reasonable person would believe Zimmerman was NOT in fear of death or grave bodily harm when Zimmerman's head was being hit against the pavement.

For the State to prove a or b would probably require evidence not currently known to the media or the general public and proving c is an even greater reach as I find it difficult to believe that most people would not consider having their head struck against the pavement as something that could lead to grave bodily harm or death.

[cthulu2016]

78. Yes, he can. (Don't be confused by waiving the pretrial hearing)

I doubt stand your ground will come up much except insofar is it is subsumed in the current Florida definition of self-defense, but there is nothing legal preventing Zimmerman from relying on it.

Waiving the pretrial SYG hearing merely waived that shot at a pre-trial dismissal, but did not negate the application of Florida law at trial. It is the law in Florida. Self defense is defined in SYG terms in Florida law. Zimmerman is claiming self-defense. SYG applies.

Again, what was waived was a pre-trial hearing. SYG remains the law either way.

In fact, if the jury found a set of facts that involved SYG they would have to apply it whether the defense wanted the to or not. It is the law.

[Jenoch]

51. While think Zimmerman

is guilty of at least voluntary manslaughter (I don't think that's one of the charges however) you are wrong about the dispatcher. The words were "we don't need you to do that". That is not an order.

[adric mutelovic]

16. There's no evidence Zimmerman followed Trayvon after the dispatcher told him he shouldn't

It doesn't matter what we call the dispatcher's suggestion/order. There's no evidence Zimmerman followed Trayvon after the dispatcher said it wasn't necessary to follow him.

[alphafemale]

21. Besides where Trayvon bled his life on a sidewalk? Far from Zimmerman's truck? nt

Enjoy your stay.

[Nimajneb Nilknarf]

40. About 150 feet from Zimmerman's truck, I believe.

It must have been a very slow pursuit indeed, or a circuitous one. Hopefully the trial process will reveal the truth.

[alphafemale]

48. That's half a football field. Certainly Zim didn't get attacked when getting out to read a street si

....another of his evolving stories.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

32. Why'd he change his mind as to police meeting him?

Why, instead of telling dispatch for police to meet him at the mailbox, did Zimmerman do a 180 and tell dispatch instead to have police call him?

Would you agree that it suggests that Zimmerman may have wanted to continue snooping around instead of returning to his truck?

[Vattel]

59. I would agree that it does suggest that he might have wanted to continue snooping around.

But there are other possibilities. Maybe he thought he might get lucky and see Martin again if he stayed in the area. If it were me I wouldn't want to commit myself to waiting at any particular place because it can be a pain in the ass to wait around for a cop. There are a million and one possible explanations. On the other side of things, Martin had plenty of time to get home while Zimmerman talked to police. And at one point Zimmerman told the police that Martin approached his vehicle to check him out Apparently Martin wasn't too scared then. All we know is that at some point Martin asked Zimmerman why he was following him. Was that because Zimmerman had been following him earlier and Martin confronted Zimmerman to ask why? Or is it because Zimmerman had continued searching for Martin and eventually found him? Did they just happen to cross paths? Setting that aside, who started the fight? And did Zimmerman reasonably fear grave bodily harm? If Zimmerman only wanted to ask martin questions and Martin assaulted him, it cannot be second degree murder although it might still be manslaughter.

[tblue]

38. How do you know?

He said he was following him, he said he was watching Trayvon's movements, and he shot him at point blank range. I think that's evidence but I'm not in that courtroom so I don't know what the prosecution will submit before it's through. None of us does.

[bravenak]

52. But why was he following him in the first place?

He made assumptions that caused him to kill a young man. He will be convicted. He said himself he followed him after the dispatcher told him not to. To get the address of where the kid was going, he said he kept going in the same direction, following him but not pursuing him. And trayvon turned around and began indicating that he did not want to be followed by this crazy man that had been following him in a vehicle previously. Which led to a fistfight that Zimmerman was losing. He then shot Trayvon.
The evidence comes from Zimmerman himself.

[cthulu2016]

7. You may find Earth law different

[bunnies]

5. I dont give a damn if he said fucking poopyheads.

He still stalked and murdered an unarmed kid coming home from getting a snapple.

[justiceischeap]

6. I think it's funny you won't type out "Fucking" but you will c**ns. nt

[adric mutelovic]

8. Aww man. You caught me being racist

[justiceischeap]

10. No, I just think in the scheme of things and context "coon" is worse than "fucking." nt

[one_voice]

11. +1

[Starry Messenger]

12. I'm glad you got that all settled in your mind honey.

Too bad the racist fuck shot a black child.

[cali]

13. +1

[adric mutelovic]

15. The defense doesn't deny Zimmerman shot a black kid

What's your point?

[Starry Messenger]

17. Oh, you got my point just fine sweetcheeks.

[nomorenomore08]

20. The point is, why are so many people (even some on DU) so eager to defend the guy?

Is an unarmed 17-year-old black kid really that terrifying?

[adric mutelovic]

22. Depends on whether the unarmed 17 year old kid was beating the hell out of Zimmerman or not

This will be a key issue.

[alphafemale]

31. Yeah. Depending on Zim's varios stories Trayvon was:

- Punching him.
- Strangling him.
- Bashing his head into the ground.
- Was reaching for his gun.

No wonder Zimmerman was terrified. Trayvon had suddenly morphed into a ten foot tall land squid.

[Starry Messenger]

46. No DNA found on Trayvon's hands. No blood either.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/06/09/1214336/-DNA-Report-does-NOT-support-Zimmerman-s-claim-that-Trayvon-Martin-caused-his-injuries

This "key issue" is a thin ice for the Zimmerman camp.

"

ZIMMERMAN: I was on top of him, straddling him, he was face down, when he kept hitting me in the face it felt like something was in his hands, so I thought he had a weapon, so I grabbed his hands and pushed them away from his body, and I said, "STOP! Don't move." He was saying something like "ahhhh ahhhhh and cursing" and I said, "STOP, don't move" and then somebody came and had a flashlight and I thought was a cop and I said - oh and I still had my gun in my hand as I was holding his hands apart and I said are you a cop he said "no" but I'll call them. I said, "I don't need you to do that I need you to help me restrain this guy."

Zimmerman admission that he pinned Trayvon Martin face down, holding Trayvon's arms out away from his body could explain: Photographs that show the front-side of Trayvon Martin's pants and hoodie have: dirt, mud, and grass stains on them.

There is no denying that the EMS Report states Zimmerman had "minor bleeding" from wounds. Officer Wagner took pictures with his cell phone before EMS cleaned Zimmerman with Peroxide that show: the very tip of Zimmerman's nose had some blood that dripped down in a narrow band onto his mustache (but no bleeding from nostrils). There is also a picture Wagner took before EMS cleaned Zimmerman that shows Zimmerman with "minor bleeding" (no smeared blood plus blood flowing to the front of Zimmerman's chin) on the back of his head.

That said, the DNA Report and Autopsy Report suggests that Trayvon Martin did not cause any of the injuries to Zimmerman. How did Zimmerman get his injuries? Who knows, but the DNA evidence and Autopsy report suggests Zimmerman did not get his injuries from the hands of Trayvon Martin."

[tblue37]

63. How is this physically possible?

[font color = "blue"]". . . he was face down, when he kept hitting me in the face . . . ."

[/font]

or this?

[font color = "blue"]
". . .oh and I still had my gun in my hand as I was holding his hands apart. . . .[/font]

Zimmerman's descriptions of his actions sound impossible--I mean physically impossible.

[Starry Messenger]

66. Perhaps physics works differently around George Zimmerman.

There is much about his ever-changing story that doesn't add up. I have my own tinfoil theory that his shallow face wounds were self-inflicted, since a doctor never examined him properly, but simply recorded what he told them. They cleared up really fast. He also says he was hit about 25-30 times in the face. Absolute codswallop. Anyone hit that many times would be dead.

[yardwork]

70. I think Zimmerman self-inflicted wounds when police let him go inside his house

The injuries seem to have appeared after Zimmerman was allowed to go "clean up."

Anyway, Zimmerman's injuries were minimal.

[Starry Messenger]

71. (I will totally eat my words if I am wrong,

but that line across the back of his head looks like the line of a door. I honestly think he had someone slam his head in the door jamb to get those injuries.)

[yardwork]

74. I hadn't thought of that. Interesting. We'll never know. It will never be discussed.

It won't come up in the trial. Zimmerman's injuries - such as they are - will be accepted as real.

[csziggy]

73. And the first photos at the scene show Martin's hands UNDER him

Not spread out as Zimmerman describes. These are the photos taken by one of the first residents to come out, the guy that also took pictures of Zimmerman's injuries. This is from the prosecution's opening statement. I haven't seen those pictures on the internet yet.

I've wondered from the very first if Zimmerman's injuries were gotten from his bumbling around in the dark looking for Martin. At first I doubted that he had any at all, but the scratches on the back of his head look really superficial like the kind of stuff I get when trying to move through underbrush fast. None of the photos of Zimmerman show the kind of injuries I would expect from having his head slammed repeatedly against a sidewalk as he claims.

Martin couldn't have inflicted that damage without getting at least some Zimmerman DNA on his hands or clothing - which the prosecution today said did not exist. I can't imagine beating someone severely, punching them in the face and slamming their head against a sidewalk would leave the attacker with no DNA and only one 2 cm. long defect on one finger.

[yardwork]

75. Lots of interesting photos and a link to the autopsy report here:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/06/09/1214336/-DNA-Report-does-NOT-support-Zimmerman-s-claim-that-Trayvon-Martin-caused-his-injuries#

[alphafemale]

24. I find 17 year old kids of any color are still very fond of warm cookies.

Heck many 47 year old kids are still very fond of warm cookies.

[Scootaloo]

27. Rhetorical question?

I know the answer. I'm pretty sure you know the answer.

[nomorenomore08]

29. Rhetorical? Yes and no.

Even taking into account the "scary black guy" angle I still find it a little difficult to wrap my head around.

[Brickbat]

18. Heh.

Well said.

[yardwork]

28. Score!

[FreeState]

43. +1 n/t

[snooper2]

23. I'm glad our new friends can discuss other subjects

So, we can't call this the DU Summer of Love-


How about-

The Summer DU Outreach Program

[Tommy_Carcetti]

25. George Zimmerman got out of his car, armed, a very angry man.

Coons or punks, it doesn't matter in the end. The tape is still very valuable to give insight into his state of mind that night.

[nomorenomore08]

33. He started it. Period. Even if there was a scuffle and Martin lightly injured him.

You could easily argue that Martin was in fact acting in self-defense, given especially that Zim had a gun and he didn't.

[adric mutelovic]

41. Would the injuries have been worse than "light" had Zimmerman not used his gun?

This is a key point.

[yardwork]

45. No. The key point is that a child is dead.

Playing coulda woulda might have is just an effort to cover up the fact that Zimmerman committed murder.

[nomorenomore08]

49. Thank you. You made my point better than I could have.

[adric mutelovic]

50. if the "child" being dead were the key point, the prosecution would have an easy job

Last edited Mon Jun 24, 2013, 10:45 PM - Edit history (1)

All they would have to do is prove Trayvon is dead. It's not that simple.

[tblue37]

65. The injuries would have been nonexistent

if Zimmerman had just left the kid alone.

[yardwork]

26. Zimmerman's actions were louder than words

Why did Zimmerman think that Trayvon was a threat? Why did Zimmerman think that Trayvon needed to be followed? Would Zimmerman have reported and followed a man wearing a business suit? A white teenager wearing dockers? A woman?

If there was a reason for Zimmerman to follow Trayvon other than that Trayvon was wearing a hoodie and was a black teen , tell me. It looks like pure racist profiling to me.

[Starry Messenger]

37. +1

"Psychologists should do research on the reasons why some people" feel the need defend people who follow young black children with guns.

I'll bet there's a word for that already...

[jeff47]

30. Not necessarily.

The proscutor could have simply decided to use the least prejudicial version of the statement, if he could not back up "coons" with sufficient forensic examination.

[graham4anything]

34. Zimmerman should be tried for first degree murder. He went looking and found.

Either word is just as bad and illegal.

I hope he is found guilty and he gets the maximum sentence the judge can give, without any chance of parole.


And we need to make sure that these fake cops shouldn't have access to guns. Paul Blart was just a movie.

[Nimajneb Nilknarf]

36. "Either word is just as bad and illegal"?

[GreenStormCloud]

80. It's illegal to say "punk" or "coon"?

Please provide link to where that is in the law books. I won't hold my breath while you find the reference.

[Uzair]

35. Anybody with working ears knows he said punk

The people saying he said "coons" are hearing voices in their heads. It's utterly clear that he said "punks".

[bravenak]

39. Maybe it's because Zimmerman had no reason to think that this unarmed teenage skittles eater was

Doing anything wrong. He had no reason to suspect trayvon of committing a crime. He followed this kid around for looking suspicious, not actually doing anything wrong. The only thing suspicious about his looks was that Zimmerman didn't recognize him. And he was black. Zimmerman would have never got his ass beat if he would have minded his own damn business and not followed and harassed a young innocent man. Period.
What was his reason for calling the young unarmed skittles eating ice tea drinking kid a punk?

[yardwork]

42. Why did Zimmerman call Trayvon a punk?

There lies the heart of the case. I think that most of us know the answer.

[bravenak]

54. It was because he was walking around in the rain.

With a hoodie on.

[adric mutelovic]

44. The candy that he ate is absolutely irrelevant

Yet people continue to mention the fact that Skittles was consumed as some sort of point in favor of the prosecution.

Are people who eat Skittles less likely to physically attack another person?

[bravenak]

53. They are less dangerous than the man with a gun.

Yes I believe if you are eating skittles you are less likely to attack someone with a gun.

[adric mutelovic]

55. How does eating skittles vs. not eating skittles make you less dangerous?

?

[bravenak]

60. How does walking home with skittles and juice make you suspicious?

How was he dangerous?

[JustAnotherGen]

67. With the case on

Maybe it's best to not armchair quarterback fyankee murderer and let the Attorneys duke it out. This thread won't make a damn bit of difference to the jury.

[frylock]

47. did you breathe a huge sigh of relief upon hearing that?

[Just Saying]

56. Actually, listen for yourself and decide what he said.

Start listening at 1:50.

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=vNI5CA5jijw&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DvNI5CA5jijw

[WinkyDink]

58. Psychologists should do research on the reasons why some people see "punks" that are not there.

[JustAnotherGen]

68. +1

[Zoeisright]

64. So fucking what?

Trayvon is dead, and Zimmerman has lied about it repeatedly.

Case closed.

[leveymg]

76. I know what I heard. He muttered "coons" - it's unmistakably not "punks."

Psychologists have done studies that show how group pressure can compel people to deny their own perceptions. This OP is an example of that, or a pretty lame attempt at it.

[JDPriestly]

77. That the prosecutor used the word "punks" does not mean that he thinks

that is what Zimmerman said. The prosecutor may simply be trying to avoid a side-issue that would waylay his case and his stronger arguments. I don't know what Zimmerman said, but the prosecutor may not want to focus the controversy on Zimmerman's choice of words. The prosecutor may believe that that use of words would not convict Zimmerman while some of the other evidence will.

That's just a possible explanation. I do not know what word Zimmerman used.

[cthulu2016]

79. When will the prosecutor be disbarred?

The prosecutor is certain, to his satisfaction, that what was said was what he quoted. And if not, ne needs to be removed from the legal profession immediately.

He could be mistaken about what was said, as anyone could, but in his mind what he quoted is is indubitably what was said.