HomeLatest ThreadsGreatest ThreadsForums & GroupsMy SubscriptionsMy Posts
DU Home » Latest Threads » Forums & Groups » Main » General Discussion (Forum) » This was a comment on CNN...

Tue Jun 25, 2013, 05:36 PM

 

This was a comment on CNN about Snowden, I thought it was to the point.

It's not so simple as hero or.... This is not about a person or personalities it is about defining ourselves as a society. What sort of world do we really want to live in? Do we trust the government to do the right thing? In my view people ought to look at the history of the last several decades and what the trends are and make their own judgments. In theory, I would support the right of government to insure what it believes are the needs, security of otherwise, of the people. In practice I do not believe the current system exists for any other reason than to enrich the already rich and to make sure the status-quo never changes. I don't believe the government has an interest in my needs or my welfare--it promotes policies and systems that are bad for me personally and appear to harm most people. This, in the end, is what this issue is about.

The "secrets" the government holds are so great and so immense that we know very little about what actually goes on unless we do our own research. The mainstream media is utterly useless in my view in getting at the truth for a variety of reasons that go back, to Walter Lippman's notions on how public opinion ought to be shaped--I leave it to the reader to look into that.

44 replies, 5811 views

Reply to this thread

Back to top Alert abuse

Always highlight: 10 newest replies | Replies posted after I mark a forum
Replies to this discussion thread
Arrow 44 replies Author Time Post
Reply This was a comment on CNN about Snowden, I thought it was to the point. (Original post)
AverageMe Jun 2013 OP
randome Jun 2013 #1
Bluenorthwest Jun 2013 #2
randome Jun 2013 #3
Bluenorthwest Jun 2013 #6
randome Jun 2013 #8
Bluenorthwest Jun 2013 #14
randome Jun 2013 #16
Bluenorthwest Jun 2013 #18
randome Jun 2013 #26
okaawhatever Jun 2013 #20
Bluenorthwest Jun 2013 #24
okaawhatever Jun 2013 #38
AverageMe Jun 2013 #28
randome Jun 2013 #30
pscot Jun 2013 #41
randome Jun 2013 #44
KurtNYC Jun 2013 #4
randome Jun 2013 #9
Bluenorthwest Jun 2013 #21
randome Jun 2013 #23
Bluenorthwest Jun 2013 #10
randome Jun 2013 #12
Bluenorthwest Jun 2013 #15
randome Jun 2013 #17
Bluenorthwest Jun 2013 #19
randome Jun 2013 #22
Bluenorthwest Jun 2013 #27
randome Jun 2013 #32
Bluenorthwest Jun 2013 #33
randome Jun 2013 #34
Progressive dog Jun 2013 #13
AverageMe Jun 2013 #7
randome Jun 2013 #11
A Simple Game Jun 2013 #37
randome Jun 2013 #43
Catherina Jun 2013 #5
AverageMe Jun 2013 #31
treestar Jun 2013 #25
Bluenorthwest Jun 2013 #29
Curmudgeoness Jun 2013 #36
Rain Mcloud Jun 2013 #35
Civilization2 Jun 2013 #39
Cleita Jun 2013 #42
BrainMann1 Jun 2013 #40

Response to AverageMe (Original post)

Tue Jun 25, 2013, 05:40 PM

1. More transparency and less secretiveness with the NSA, no argument there.

 

All this other crap that Snowden spouts without evidence, such as the NSA watching our thoughts form as we type, is more like magical Harry Potter crap.

The focus should be on more transparency and less secretiveness.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.
[/center][/font]
[hr]

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to randome (Reply #1)

Tue Jun 25, 2013, 05:51 PM

2. Can you support your assertions as to what Snowden is saying?

 

Because I'd hate to think you were using hyperbolic bullshit language while claiming to hold transparency as an objective.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #2)

Tue Jun 25, 2013, 05:54 PM

3. What did Snowden reveal and what did he not reveal?

 

Other than the metadata warrant (which we already knew about) and the fact that we spy on other counties (also known), the rest of Snowden's claims are expected to be taken at face value without any corroborating evidence.

Why didn't he provide evidence that he could hack into the President's email?

Why didn't he provide evidence that the NSA has 'direct access' into the world's Internet providers? (A claim roundly refuted by all the companies involved.)

Why didn't he provide evidence that the NSA can watch our thoughts form as we type?

Why didn't he provide evidence that the NSA downloads the Internet on a daily basis?

Why didn't he explain what he meant when he said he "saw things"?

He was a Systems Administrator, not an Intelligence Analyst, so he never had the access he claimed else he would have provided evidence.

So, no, I'm not going to get up in arms about someone who has no evidence then flees to foreign countries and starts giving away my country's secrets.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.
[/center][/font]
[hr]

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to randome (Reply #3)

Tue Jun 25, 2013, 06:08 PM

6. I asked you to address you specific assertion which I will repeat for you:

 

"All this other crap that Snowden spouts without evidence,such as the NSA watching our thoughts form as we type, is more like magical Harry Potter crap."

Lots of other stuff you typed up there, but you failed to support your own wild assertion as asked, meaning anything else you type has all the validity of the fiction about watching our thoughts.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #6)

Tue Jun 25, 2013, 06:13 PM

8. The fact that he has not provided evidence of the NSA watching our thoughts form as we type...

 

...leans toward the conclusion that he has no evidence, wouldn't you agree?

So why would anyone think that's happening? All the Internet providers say they do not allow 'back door access' to the NSA.

Of course everyone up and down the line could be lying to us but...

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.
[/center][/font]
[hr]

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to randome (Reply #8)

Tue Jun 25, 2013, 06:18 PM

14. I have asked you for evidence Snowden says NSA reads our thoughts. You provided none.

 

Conclusion is that you made that up. You claimed he said it, but refused to cite your claim. You said he said NSA reads our thoughts, equated that to Harry Potter, I asked you to show where he said it. You raved on and on, without any citation of evidence. Meaning you have none, you made that up.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #14)

Tue Jun 25, 2013, 06:21 PM

16. Okay, sorry, I wasn't sure what you were asking. It's in the video.

 

Make a list of his claims then compare it to my list.

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="?feature=player_detailpage" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.
[/center][/font]
[hr]

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to randome (Reply #16)

Tue Jun 25, 2013, 06:24 PM

18. Oh, now you understand and want me to watch some video?

 

Offer a cite. I'm not sifting through vids for you. Bring a transcript or even a quote.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #18)

Tue Jun 25, 2013, 06:31 PM

26. Post #22.

 

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.
[/center][/font]
[hr]

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #14)

Tue Jun 25, 2013, 06:27 PM

20. I've posted one of many links to that part of his story. I can't believe anyone would claim

to be informed on the story and not know that detail.



Snowden told the Washington Post and Guardian that the U.S. government had direct access to the central servers of Google, Facebook, and other global Internet companies and said this surveillance capability was so powerful that the government could watch your thoughts form as you type

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/edward-snowden-giving-us-secrets-to-china-2013-6#ixzz2XGm9KNCE

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to okaawhatever (Reply #20)

Tue Jun 25, 2013, 06:30 PM

24. You might note I have never claimed to be informed on this story. That's why I asked for

 

support for the assertions made. The freak out that followed sort of surprised me. I still don't see a quote from Snowden in your post, by the way. Why is that? Is there no such quote?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #24)

Tue Jun 25, 2013, 08:25 PM

38. Here you are:

As Snowden stated, “They quite literally can watch your ideas form as you type.”

http://www.forbes.com/sites/joshsteimle/2013/06/10/edward-snowden-and-the-disruption-of-government/

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to randome (Reply #3)

Tue Jun 25, 2013, 06:41 PM

28. My friend, all the capabilities that you mention, any relatively capable

 

hacker can do without too many problems. And if they can do it, what do you think the NSA can do. The question is do they chose to do it , at this time. Would Nixon have done it if he could? So many things that were illegal for Nixon, and he was impeached for are now legal. I'm afraid to say, the terrorist have won, America land of the free, died on 9-11.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to AverageMe (Reply #28)

Tue Jun 25, 2013, 06:45 PM

30. Of course they CAN spy on anyone they want.

 

That's why we have laws, rules, regulations and coordinated levels of approval.

Hell, your local police COULD be looking through your garbage right now. Do you have any evidence that they are?

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.
[/center][/font]
[hr]

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to randome (Reply #30)

Tue Jun 25, 2013, 08:32 PM

41. If Google and Microsoft can complete your thoughts even as you type

why would you doubt government has that capability? NSA and Silicon Valley are joined at the hip. The government's obsession with secrecy parallels and is refreshed by the tech sector's obsessive secrecy. Knowledge is power, and secrecy protects knowledge from escaping to the 99% and bolsters power. And it's all at the service of the owners; our capitalist overlords. Hackers like Snowden are anathema to the tech barons.







5

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to pscot (Reply #41)

Tue Jun 25, 2013, 08:44 PM

44. I don't think the capitalist overlords are calling the shots at the NSA.

 

We don't know how the NSA operates but I'm betting there are two or three levels of approval needed to complete any action.

And I don't think Snowden was much of a hacker. Hell, he apparently didn't even understand what a secure FTP server was.

And if he was even an adequate hacker, why didn't he obtain evidence to support his claims?

My point remains. The government could always be doing nefarious things but Snowden didn't show evidence that it is. I'm not invested in looking for problems until I have a reason to do so.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.
[/center][/font]
[hr]

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink



Response to KurtNYC (Reply #4)

Tue Jun 25, 2013, 06:14 PM

9. My list in post #3 has all the unsupported claims by Snowden.

 

Where is the evidence of any of it?

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.
[/center][/font]
[hr]

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to randome (Reply #9)

Tue Jun 25, 2013, 06:27 PM

21. Where is it in this transcript? I'm not free to watch your videos

 

The transcript has been provided. Thanks.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #21)

Tue Jun 25, 2013, 06:30 PM

23. Post #22. I may have been mistaken about it being in the video.

 

But the source in #22 quotes him.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.
[/center][/font]
[hr]

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to KurtNYC (Reply #4)

Tue Jun 25, 2013, 06:15 PM

10. The level of dishonesty is really stunning.

 

nt

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #10)

Tue Jun 25, 2013, 06:17 PM

12. What dishonesty? I listed Snowden's claims that are unsupported by any evidence.

 

I will not take anyone's word for anything.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.
[/center][/font]
[hr]

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to randome (Reply #12)

Tue Jun 25, 2013, 06:21 PM

15. Again, you refuse to provide evidence for your claim:

 

""All this other crap that Snowden spouts without evidence,such as the NSA watching our thoughts form as we type, is more like magical Harry Potter crap."

You repeat your repetition but you do not provide any evidence that Snowden said NSA can watch our thoughts form.
You know that you are being asked to support that assertion, and you are being intentionally obtuse. Dishonest bullshit.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #15)

Tue Jun 25, 2013, 06:24 PM

17. It's in the video reference above.

 

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.
[/center][/font]
[hr]

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to randome (Reply #17)

Tue Jun 25, 2013, 06:26 PM

19. I'm not watching video clips to find that which you should offer.

 

Get real. You made the assertion in words, back up them up that way. I can't watch crap for you right now. I'm not alone and can not listen to long audio because you are too lazy to back up your assertions.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #19)

Tue Jun 25, 2013, 06:29 PM

22. Yeah, I don't blame you.

 

http://z8rc.com/2013/06/bad-news/

Snowden stated what I knew through other primary sources, that Americans have no clue how extensive the NSA snooping capabilities are, that they literally “watch your thoughts form” (his words) as you use your home computer, and that they do so routinely and by official policy. He stated they have an official policy of lying to prevent disclosure of their capabilities, categorizing their intentionally misleading cover stories a matter of national security. That the NSA (ed: as a minimum) has complete and unrestricted access to your most private data, including text transcripts of billions of phone conversations made every day, a log of all the websites your and your family have visited, they have all of your passwords, total access to bank and brokerage accounts, credit card data, know and catalog your buying patterns, your geographic GPS tracks, your political views and religious affiliations, and that they monitor and archive all of this data for the purpose of automated information mining.


[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.
[/center][/font]
[hr]

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to randome (Reply #22)

Tue Jun 25, 2013, 06:40 PM

27. No offense but that link is not exactly a trusted source, nor does it cite it's source for

 

this 'quote'. It is a crazed bit of language and I'd not be prone to take anyone seriously who speaks like that, but oddly the blog you link to actually claims to have already known that to be true from other sources, your link does not mock Snowden for saying this the author says
"Snowden stated what I knew through other primary sources, that Americans have no clue how extensive the NSA snooping capabilities are, that they literally “watch your thoughts form” (his words) as you use your home computer, and that they do so routinely and by official policy."
The author says he knew Snowden's assertion to be true. The author seems to suggest Snowden's language is poetic rather than literal.
So that link. It is not a sourced quote and it agrees with Snowden, not with you.
Funny stuff, this.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #27)

Tue Jun 25, 2013, 06:48 PM

32. The Business Insider has more info.

 

http://www.businessinsider.com/edward-snowden-giving-us-secrets-to-china-2013-6#ixzz2XGm9KNCE

You're not playing fair insisting that I provide links!!

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.
[/center][/font]
[hr]

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to randome (Reply #32)

Tue Jun 25, 2013, 07:04 PM

33. DU is basically my entire source for this story, and as usual for me the story is secondary

 

to the way it is discussed. This link claims the quote was given to WaPost and the Guardian, eventually I might actually read a quote from Snowden saying this. You have to admit, this is a bit of work to find a quote. A quote that some claim is common knowledge. But none can actually cite with a source. They saw it somewhere.
Hard to get to the bottom of things with all the malarkey.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #33)

Tue Jun 25, 2013, 07:29 PM

34. I know, I know. And my bullet points about Snowden are a synthesis of all I've heard about him.

 

I didn't pause to capture a link to every item. In retrospect, I should have.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.
[/center][/font]
[hr]

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to KurtNYC (Reply #4)

Tue Jun 25, 2013, 06:18 PM

13. Some right here

"Because even if you're not doing anything wrong you're being watched and recorded. And the storage capability of these systems increases every year consistently by orders of magnitude to where it's getting to the point where you don't have to have done anything wrong. You simply have to eventually fall under suspicion from somebody even by a wrong call. And then they can use this system to go back in time and scrutinize every decision you've ever made, every friend you've ever discussed something with.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to randome (Reply #1)

Tue Jun 25, 2013, 06:11 PM

7. Did you know a hacker can watch what you type

 

as you type it. So it should not be a shock if the NSA also could do the same.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to AverageMe (Reply #7)

Tue Jun 25, 2013, 06:15 PM

11. Of course they can. What does that have to do with the NSA?

 

Is there any evidence that they are doing that to all 300 million people in America? Is there any evidence provided by Snowden that points to them doing that to anyone? (Other than, presumably, with a warrant.)

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.
[/center][/font]
[hr]

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to randome (Reply #1)

Tue Jun 25, 2013, 08:11 PM

37. With our current government, if you don't support Snowden and others like him

you won't have transparency and less secretiveness. Transparency and less secretiveness was and is what Snowden did , it really is that simple. Without Snowden we were only guessing. Now we may have court cases.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to A Simple Game (Reply #37)

Tue Jun 25, 2013, 08:38 PM

43. He really only 'revealed' two things.

 

The metadata warrant (legal), which we already knew about.
And the fact that we spy on other countries, which we also knew about.

The most disturbing thing about Snowden in regards to the NSA is that he was able to get access to internal office documents (not private info) while in training.

He has actually shown more evidence that private info is not readily available since he was not able to show us anything to support his claims.

He was, you recall, a Systems Administrator, not an Intelligence Analyst. The guy who fixes printers and sets up email for new employees. So it's hard for me to trust the word of someone who never had access to the things he claims.

Still, overall, yes, it's a good thing that something happened to advocate for more transparency and less secretiveness.

And better controls on the insane march to privatization.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.
[/center][/font]
[hr]

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to AverageMe (Original post)

Tue Jun 25, 2013, 06:08 PM

5. Thank you AverageMe. Do you have a link for this comment ?

It's encouraging to see this kind of thought outside of DU's circle.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Catherina (Reply #5)

Tue Jun 25, 2013, 06:45 PM

31. Do not have a link, it was just a comment like here

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to AverageMe (Original post)

Tue Jun 25, 2013, 06:31 PM

25. It's an exaggeration to say they help only the rich

I'm getting sick of that self pitying meme.

The middle class has tax breaks on mortgages, exemptions for children, education, etc. There is some social safety net and will be more with Obamacare. The "rich" don't like any of that.

There were several laws to help people during the housing crisis.

There are laws against discrimination, laws for consumers meant to protect them from big corporate shenanigans.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to treestar (Reply #25)

Tue Jun 25, 2013, 06:43 PM

29. There are actually no laws against discrimination against LGBT people and we are not

 

allowed to share in most o the 'tax breaks' either. We can be fired, denied housing. Not that such things matter to the 'I got mine and you get plenty buster' crowd.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to treestar (Reply #25)

Tue Jun 25, 2013, 08:11 PM

36. Seriously?

Most of the tax breaks are really meant to help business, not individuals. Like the mortgage interest tax breaks---help sell houses and mortgages. Safety nets have been cut again and again over the past years. Those laws to help people during the housing crisis were not even enforced...have you heard about robo-signing? Have you heard about all the bankers who were thrown in prison? Or fined? Laws against discrimination are not exactly easy to prove, and there are many obstacles in the way of the accuser, but not the abuser. Consumer laws? Most of the consumer laws are silly, like all the warnings on items you buy (do not put your finger in this fan while it is running). But many of these laws do not protect the consumer from real abuses.

Most of the protections and benefits that we (lower and middle class) have are just window dressing. And occasionally, there is a law that really does help us, and I have to wonder how that law got through. Do not accept that all that is said to be beneficial is really benefiting you.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to AverageMe (Original post)

Tue Jun 25, 2013, 08:02 PM

35. They could give two shits about Snowden

 

The thing is that they do not know what he stole exactly and they want that back in case it is made public.
It is a matter of getting their bullshit story together for damage control.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to AverageMe (Original post)

Tue Jun 25, 2013, 08:27 PM

39. Trust in power is an odd concept,trust is faith,faith is intentional irrationality. Power corrupts!

 

"In practice I do not believe the current system exists for any other reason than to enrich the already rich and to make sure the status-quo never changes. I don't believe the government has an interest in my needs or my welfare--it promotes policies and systems that are bad for me personally and appear to harm most people. This, in the end, is what this issue is about. "

exactly correct,. we know the truth but the results.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Civilization2 (Reply #39)

Tue Jun 25, 2013, 08:38 PM

42. It used to be the 1% realized they had to throw some bones to the

rest of us so they could feel secure in their mansions and country clubs. They don't even feel that obligation anymore.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to AverageMe (Original post)

Tue Jun 25, 2013, 08:30 PM

40. Did anyone watch the "Ed Show"

I agree with him 100%. Boom

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink

Reply to this thread