I dont think Trayvon's friend is helping the case much.

[darkangel218]

She has difficulties articulating the answers. I don't see it very helpful

[Skittles]

1. you seem to be having a bit of difficulty yourself

just sayin'

[quinnox]

60. +1000

[EOTE]

2. I agree. She needed to be continually asked to speak up and she seemed very annoyed.

As if she's completely unaware that she needs to be asked these questions again even though she's already answered them. You'd think she'd have gone through at least a bit of prep first. She's certainly not helping the prosecution.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

8. Parties aren't supposed to "prep" their witnesses.

Such behavior would suggest that they would be feeding her answers.

[EOTE]

14. Isn't one of the attorney's maxims "Never ask a question you don't already know the answer to"?

I'm not suggesting that she be made aware of the answers she's to provide, but I'd have thought that she'd have been asked these questions already and not seem so damned confused as to what she's there for.

[Myrina]

207. Of course she would have been prepped.

You are 100% correct.

[qazplm]

54. thats not true

you can absolutely prep a witness, what you can't do is get a witness to say something other than what they believe to be the truth, but you absolutely can prep a witness with the questions, and you can ask them to use clearer language, talk to them about dress, etc in prepping the presentation of their testimony.

Nothing wrong with it so long as you aren't having them say what you want them to say or feeding them information that isn't true, etc.

[Raine]

97. My father was involved in a court case and he was "prepped", not fed answerers

but asked questions and gave answers to the lawyer from his side. My father was told to just say yes or no and not to elaborate when he was actually on the stand.

[markpkessinger]

100. Lawyers prep witnesses all the time...

... and there's nothing improper about it, provided the lawyer doesn't instruct the witness to alter the substance of his or her answers. One major thing lawyers try to prepare witnesses for is not volunteering any information beyond answer the actual question posed (as such information could inadvertently aid the other side).

[WinkyDink]

165. Not true.

[Bake]

228. Oh but they do.

As an attorney, you ALWAYS prep your witnesses.

ALWAYS.

She needs to tell the truth, and that's all.

Bake

[Tommy_Carcetti]

229. Of course they do.

But like speed limits and under aged drinking, it's one of those things that is against the rules yet ignored nonetheless.

[WI_DEM]

243. Nothing against the rules about it...

You present all the different types of questions that the other side potentially asks and make sure you are consistent in your responses with what you have testified from the beginning. Nothing 'against the rules' about it.

[Bake]

261. Not only is it NOT against the rules ...

... the failure to do so would probably constitute malpractice.

Bake

[Tommy_Carcetti]

262. I think we're talking about two different things here.

I'm not talking about telling a witness what to expect during testimony. I'm talking about telling a witness how exactly to answer questions.

[ScreamingMeemie]

3. She's a kid. n/t

[EOTE]

15. I'm pretty sure she's 19 which makes her, at least legally, an adult. nt

[ScreamingMeemie]

36. I'm sorry, turning 19 doesn't magically gift you with the ability to speak like a grownup. A kid n/t

[EOTE]

39. I've known plenty of 15 year olds who could speak like adults.

I was one of them. And I'm not expecting utter eloquence, I'm just expecting her to not be so damned confused as to why she's there in the first place. I've never seen a witness so unprepared before.

[ScreamingMeemie]

55. Good for you. She's a kid. To expect her to sit on the stand and be perfect. Pfffft n/t

[EOTE]

67. Again, not expecting her to be perfect. Just for her to have a bit of a clue as to why she's there.

And not get annoyed when she's being asked questions that she's already been asked. That should be a major no-brainer.

[Maximumnegro]

105. The average reading level in US for high schoolers

is actually 5th grade. Maybe you haven't been aware but this is pretty much the norm for much of the US these days.

[EOTE]

122. I'm not expecting eloquence.

I AM expecting a sense of decorum and for her to have an idea as to why she's there and why she's being asked the questions she's being asked. She was extremely rude and I'm fairly sure she hurt the prosecution's case. I'm amazed she wasn't prepped better.

[Fantastic Anarchist]

115. Not be perfect, but she didn't have to be rude either.

I'm thinking the prosecution is thinking the same thing.

Now, I didn't see the whole testimony, but I did see the part where she screamed, "What?" When the prosecution and judge were discussing the proceedings.

She was not helpful from what I saw.

And at 19, I knew how to act and how to speak, especially in serious situations.

[gateley]

159. I think she may represent a large chunk of that generation.

I, too, would have behaved differently, but I see too many young people these days who didn't receive the discipline and traiining that those of my generation did.

[Fantastic Anarchist]

175. Don't get me wrong ...

I was a punk kid (as in the genre). I hated authority, and I did my own thing.

But when I was in serious situations (police, court, etc.), I was always respectful, if only for self-preservation.

And not to think that I was disrespectful to people in general. I wasn't. My dad taught me at a very young age to always be courteous and respectful, which I was. But, I did have a general disdain for authority, and when hanging out with my friends, I was pretty unruly.

I guess, long story short, there's a time and place for everything. You tailor your behavior according to the situation.

[gateley]

266. And I was an absolute terror and wild child. But I was schooled by nuns and

my father was a fairly prominent surgeon. I knew how to behave and present myself around authority. Even when I was stoned out of my skull, I was polite and respectful.

[Fantastic Anarchist]

269. I totally feel ya.

Always a time and a place to be a dick.

In serious situations, don't be a dick.

Getting stoned helped with that, too.

[Pelican]

123. Let's meet in the middle...

She is an adult who speaks like a kid (i.e. poorly)

[pnwmom]

81. So? The average youth under the pressure of a courtroom appearance

is not going to sound like a prepared witness on Law and Order.

[EOTE]

237. That's true.

It's also true that the average youth isn't nearly so arrogant and ignorant. Ignorance can be forgiven, being so incredibly rude, especially when there are a number of jurors who are going through the same thing, only much more so, is a lot less forgivable.

[pnwmom]

239. There are a number of jurors who are going through the same thing? Only much more so?

Who are going through something much worse than losing a friend to murder while they were talking to him on the phone and are now having to relive it on the witness stand?

[EOTE]

245. Trayvon was murdered almost a year and a half ago.

I know it's difficult to go through with, but she's not complaining because she's still in mourning, she's complaining because she's petulant, because she wants to be doing other things. IMO, she's insulting Trayvon's memory by acting as she is. I think if the prosecution loses the case, she'll be a good reason for that. Having a loved one murdered is not a free pass to act like an asshole the rest of your life.

[pnwmom]

246. I've seen her wiping tears a number of times. Is that because she's petulant, too?

A year and a half is not a long time to have processed a murder of a friend.

[EOTE]

249. Crying is fine, being an asshole is not.

She's been acting as if she has no idea why she's there and being asked questions she's already been asked before. Also, complaining about how long she needs to stay multiple times. I can't imagine that's going to sit well for the jury who's going to need to be there far longer than she'll have to. Grieving for a loved one isn't a free pass to act like an asshole.

[Voice for Peace]

232. I am pretty sure this is a girl who has been traumatized

whether by life in general or just by the whole
of these events. This is her childhood friend.

When she was speaking about why she didn't
go to Trayvon's funeral, and describing
the calls, she was holding in so much emotion,
probably unable to even process it, but you
can see it in her body, she is rocking and squirming
and bouncing, and trying to control her
face. This is emotion being held back,
withheld in the body.

Finally when she is handed some tissues, a bit
leaks out.

The defense attorney is a total ass, and worse
he reminds me of Rick Scott.

[pnwmom]

240. +1. nt

[Rod Walker]

61. At 19, she *is* a grownup.

[pnwmom]

82. At 19, she's several years away from having a fully developed brain,

no matter what legal classification she falls under.

[theHandpuppet]

85. That was surely evident.

She seemed to be about as bright as a cantaloupe.

[Rod Walker]

95. Hm...harsh but fair.

[Maximumnegro]

106. Hey now. This is FLORIDA we're talking

about. This is par for the course!

As someone who lives in Los Angeles, it's the same here. Both states have a large population of teens that are frankly self-absorbed and vacant. Not dumb necessarily, but kind of inarticulate and vacuous.

This is a ridiculous generalization, but having spent time in both states it's a similarity I haven't encountered anywhere else in the US.

[exboyfil]

140. And the defense will try to show

that she is typical of Trayvon Martin who had a very large chip on his shoulder and took it out on Zimmerman prompting him to shot Martin in defense. She seems to be a gold mine for the defense. Martin was and she is going to grow up to be leaches on society looking for handouts and victimizing people to maintain their lifestyle.

I am not saying I agree with it (which I don't), but that is what the defense is going to try to do.

[Rod Walker]

93. I (and virtually everyone I grew up with) was *far* more articulate at age 19 than this woman.

Even at age 13, for that matter...

She's not doing the prosecution any favors.

[savalez]

104. I'm sure you were a regular Dr. Bombay.

[Rod Walker]

107. I always preferred Uncle Arthur, actually.

[pnwmom]

119. She wasn't picked because she was so articulate.

She was picked because she was the only witness to what she heard.

[Voice for Peace]

234. and thank you!!

sheesh.. I'll say it again the defense lawyer's an ass
and looks like Rick Scott

[cyberswede]

242. +1

Witnesses can't be chosen based on their qualifications.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

4. It's not theater. She's not going to get any awards for her testimony.

If anything, it makes her come off more believable.

A coached witness would not have had these issues.

[Whisp]

24. exactly. wtf...

people think she should have taken acting lessons for this?

too many lawyer shows on the fricken tv I guess. Everyone's got to fit the image that has been fed to us on what a witness is supposed to sound like.

[darkangel218]

37. I meant to say , prosecution shouldve coached her a bit.

Last edited Wed Jun 26, 2013, 07:12 PM - Edit history (1)

[Whisp]

44. coached her on what? her voice she was born with?

she is telling her account just fine, to my ears.

what should she be coached on?

[darkangel218]

49. Omg! On answering the questions, not her voice!

You're turning my OP into something it isn't. Byebye.

[onpatrol98]

146. Whisp???

You know what this is about, right?

She isn't coming across as a "sympathetic" witness. It's all in the optics. Stick someone else in that chair that certain people could sympathize with...and have exactly the same thing happen.

Low voice, articulation unclear...but, then there would be sympathy...we'd hear..."that poor child...well, of course she's speaking low, she was on the phone while her friend was murdered. What teenager isn't going to be drastically shook up by that?"

It's not that she isn't helping the prosecution...she isn't helping the prosecution with the right group.

I look at her and her mannerisms seem young. She's about the age of the students I teach. She even sounds young. So, I'm willing to give quite a bit of leeway. I mean, she knows the WORLD is watching her. And, depending on her background...she may have come into this court room, expecting to be harassed and disbelieved. That doesn't inspire confidence. But, to some folk, she isn't going to come across the same way.

But, you know what I can't wrap my brain around. That it isn't a slam dunk that you can't follow someone, but then when you approach them, harass them, ...and start losing the fight, you shoot them, and cry self defense.

That's amazing. If this is true...truly no one is safe. Anyone can go after anybody in Florida and you have the right to shoot them...IF you're scared you're about to lose the fight.

If Zimmerman wins...what the heck will that mean in neighborhoods around America...IF...you don't come across as a sympathetic victim?

A person you don't like is walking through your neighborhood. Why by all means...follow them. Catch up to them, pick a fight. If you win, you win. But, if you're losing the fight, because you followed the wrong person, shoot them. It's self-defense. You were in fear for your life.

Shucks...that person I stalked (to me following a person is stalking, I'm sorry) and then jumped, almost beat the crap out me. It's a good thing I had a gun to protect myself.

[bettyellen]

201. "she isn't helping the prosecution with the right group" I am wondering if those appalled by her

would ever be sympathetic or understand Trayvon's lifestyle to the extent where they forgive him for being an average teen. Instead of assuming he might be a thug because he is different than themselves.
This poor girl is in a rough situation- she is angry at West for trying to put words in her mouth. I am happy she is sticking up for herself and not letting bullshit fly. Maybe because I grew up in a diverse hood with pockets of severe poverty and good people who also happened to be poorly educated I'm just not as shocked at this young lady's "performance". I think she sounds pretty genuine- and that is what matters most to me.

[magical thyme]

231. ^^^this is why Zimmerman is trying to claim that Martin ambushed him

trying to claim he had headed back to his truck and that Martin attacked him.

And this is why the defense is going after this witness so hard. Because her testimony is almost the exact opposite. That Zimmerman ambushed and attacked Martin, who was running away.

[uppityperson]

47. Coaching is against the rules, will indicate they may have told her what to say.

[darkangel218]

53. Telling her to try to be clear with her answers is not agaisnt the rules.

[uppityperson]

58. I agree, was misunderstanding.

[JVS]

111. That's illegal. The best thing to do is tell witnesses...

not to talk about the event with anyone, not to read articles about it in the news, and not to try to make anything up on the spot. Also, no facebooking/twittering about the case.

[BlueStreak]

139. She is the closest thing to Martin the Jury will see

I didn't see her, but I heard about 20 minutes of her testimony on the radio.

The prosecution wants to portray Zimmerman as a bigoted guy with an agenda against black teenagers in the area.

The defense will want to portray Martin as a dope-smoking, irresponsible, fight-provoking, angry hood.

I really want to take Martin's side of this, but listening to that girl, she seemed to reinforce the caricature that the defense will be pushing throughout the trial. I'd say she is a disaster, considering that it only takes one juror to let Zimmerman off.

Had she been well spoken -- or even made an attempt to speak words that were intelligible, the jury could have concluded that Martin was also an innocent kid just minding his own business. This girl's attitude/presence encourages the jury to at least question whether Martin also had an attitude that became a factor in his demise.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

141. Except the actual **CONTENT** of the testimony supports the prosecution's picture

That Trayvon was disturbed by Zimmerman following him and tried to run from him and that Zimmerman confronted him, not visa versa as Zimmerman claims.

A witness does not have to come off as polished and proper in demeanor just to be believed by a jury. Ever see My Cousin Vinny and Marisa Tomei's testimony? (And yes, while it is a movie, it's actually one of the more legally accurate ones in terms of actual courtroom procedure.)

[BlueStreak]

153. This didn't strike me as a "My Cousin Vinnie" moment

Often style is much more important than substance.

I'm just afraid that the way she carried herself will reinforce (in the minds of a few jurors) the defense narrative that these were young punks with an attitude, just looking for trouble, even though none of her words said anything like that.

I hope I am wrong.

[uponit7771]

149. +1

[CreekDog]

203. The witness should've spoken more clearly

and with a British accent.

[Agschmid]

5. It feels like she got no prep...

I am sure she did, so just image what this would be like if she really had not gotten any prep.

That being said how old is she? Seems quite young which I feel is part of the problem.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

11. She's not supposed to be prepped.

Parties are not supposed to prep their witnesses for testimony.

[Agschmid]

16. Yes but she was appearing in court...

She doesn't seem to understand court... Someone... The court? Should have prepared her for how her testimony would work.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

18. Some witnesses will have their own attorneys.

And while they aren't supposed to tell them how to answer, they can tell them what to expect.

But if you don't have your own attorney, you are basically out on your own. Just tell the truth and only answer the question being asked to you.

[Agschmid]

22. Got it.

Well I hope she is convincing to the jury! Zimmerman should be put away!

[premium]

20. What?

Prosecution and defense prep their witness' all the time, they go over the questions the opposition is likely to ask and make sure that what they initially told the interviewers is what their going to say on the stand.
I was prepped several times by both defense and prosecution during my career.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

29. An attorney can tell you what to expect in questioning.

However, they aren't supposed to tell you how to answer.

Granted, attorneys do that all the time, but technically it is a violation of bar ethics to instruct a witness how to answer a question.

[premium]

32. Ok, then.

I misunderstand what you were getting at and you're correct, both sides are not supposed to tell you what to say, but, as you say, it does happen.

[jberryhill]

33. "Preparing a witness to testify" and "instructing them how to answer"

...are two different things.

[Fantastic Anarchist]

116. That's false. Parties can prep witnesses.

They just can't tell them what to say or make them change the substance of their testimony. But they can prep witness in terms of dress, demeanor, and to not elaborate on cross-examination.

[Cali_Democrat]

6. She's a teenager

[premium]

7. Maybe it's just me,

but she doesn't seem to be a good witness for the prosecution at all.

[darkangel218]

13. Thats my take too.

Sadly.

[Agschmid]

17. Yup. n/t

[LanternWaste]

21. What specifically is she saying that weakens or undermines the prosecutions' case?

What specifically is she saying that weakens or undermines the prosecutions' case?

[Agschmid]

26. The recollection of events is not strong...

And unorganized it's hard to follow, I feel that could be damaging?

However I feel her testimony is getting better towards the end?

[LanternWaste]

71. I don't really see how testimony that neither weakens not invalidates the prosecution's case

I don't really see how testimony that neither weakens not invalidates the prosecution's case can be damaging. It may be tiresome to listen to, it may be boring, heck-- it may even be annoying... but none of that actually hurts the prosecution, nor assists the defense.

[Fantastic Anarchist]

117. You are dealing with live human jurors ...

... they will have an impression of her testimony. In my view, it stunk. Her demeanor was horrible.

[pinto]

9. Disagree. I caught the prosecution's questioning. I think she presented a vivid account.

A once removed eye witness of sorts. The cell phone conversation is compelling.

[justiceischeap]

10. Here's how I see it

She was asked repeatedly to repeat herself, to speak up and I could understand her perfectly. That's gotta be annoying. Then the defense attorney is treating her sorta like an idiot.

I'd like to see the Prosecution follow-up on a few points though.

[Democracyinkind]

30. Absolutely. I'm a fucking expat who hasn't spoken english in months

I have no problem understandning her.

[pipi_k]

166. I've spoken English

for over 55 years.

If I had been on that jury, I would have been highly annoyed.

First, I have hearing problems and can't understand people who don't speak up.

She also mumbled at times. Turning up the sound on the TV only made it even more unintelligible.

I have to admit that there were moments where she came off as very sympathetic...like when she was talking about how difficult it was to know she was the very last person to talk to Trayvon Martin before he died. My heart truly went out to her. I could see the pain she felt.

But that one very real moment was, unfortunately, overshadowed by her crappy attitude and inability to make herself clear throughout most of her time on the stand.

[Democracyinkind]

167. Yes, it isn't all that clear, but it is intelligeble.

I get that it must be hard with hearing problems.

And I also think that the jury is annoyed. But I believe they are annoyed because what the defense is doing with her is not very relevant. The actual eye-witnesses were run through while she, who has almost no first hand knowledge of what went down is kept on the stand for hours.

[Rhiannon12866]

12. I agree with you, she isn't being very clear or forthcoming

It's frustrating to listen to her. It's like pulling teeth. I would have thought she'd be a lot more effective in recounting the events.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

25. It's not a theatrical performance.

She's not testifying to entertain.

[Rhiannon12866]

35. I'm not hoping to be entertained

I figured she'd be the one person with the clearest account of what actually transpired.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

42. Her story was actually pretty clear.

The defense is hitting her on events after the night in question and how she learned about events and how she came to be a witness, but I don't know how much they actually attacked her recollection of the night in question.

[Rhiannon12866]

68. He seems to be putting words in her mouth

So I'm wondering how accurate it is. I'm getting confused, so I wonder how well the jury's following it. I do feel bad for her, since I'm sure she doesn't want to be there, but I'd think she'd want to be helpful - to her friend.

[Whisp]

19. she is telling her account.

what is your problem with that?

[olddots]

23. I had to turn it off

the racism thrown at her was like 1957 .

[Democracyinkind]

27. She completely destryoed Zimmy's version of events. nt

[nolabear]

28. I think this is far outside her way of communicating. And she's young and scared and upset.

She is doing a much better job when allowed to simply tell her story in a narrative, rather than in the stilted way the lawyer is questioning her. And I don't think she understands that each question is discreet and they don't want to really know what her experience was.

And I expect she feels the eyes of everyone on her, and is worried about that.

The attorneys will make what they will of it.

[Democracyinkind]

31. I think she is holding up well.

What are people expecting here? The Queen's english?

[nolabear]

38. I actually enjoy seeing her get in his face a little.

"Don't you ever watch 'First 48'? The cops call back the last phone call."

Unfortunately he's better at this than she is. He can set her up before she knows it.

[Whisp]

41. she is doing great. Under that kind of pressure and emotion

my gawd,

wtf is wrong with some people and how they are criticizing her? She's hardly more than a kid herself. I can't imagine being too 'hollywood' myself under those circumstances and I ain't no kid.

[darkangel218]

45. Thats your opinion, Whisp, otbers have the right to disagree with you.

Are they allowed to do that?

[Rod Walker]

112. The Queen's English would be very refreshing, under the circumstances.

[Whisp]

172. you mean Ann Romney's English? wtf are you talking about? n/t

[Rod Walker]

219. Ann Romney? What in the world does she have anything to do with the subject at hand?

[Whisp]

227. 'the Queen's English'

last Queen I heard talked about around here was Queen Ann and how she spoke to 'you people'. It sounds arrogant and lofty and actually quite silly to use as a criticism toward the young woman on the witness stand.

It's ridiculous.

[Kingofalldems]

260. Well nothing other than I think you

voted for her husband.

[bobduca]

267. Yeah how dare she speak a dialect?!?!

The racism on display in this thread is real ugly.

[Jackpine Radical]

130. The Queen's english?

Yes, I've heard she is.

[Democracyinkind]

145. LOL. Give me a break. What are you people expecting?

Have you ever asked yourself that she may not be as educated and as worldly as regular posters on DU?

Have you ever considered where she comes from? What kind of education system she went through?

I haven't spoken english in months and I have no problem understanding her.

Pure fucking classicism, mixed with a bit of casual racism.

"But Avery, the proles don't speak like decent humans"

Can't believe this shit.

[Democracyinkind]

148. Fuck and shit have been english words for a long time, now, right?

She can't read hand written letters - I know college grads that have problems with that, since they never had any experience with reading handwritten stuff. Do you want to blame her for that? Or is it maybe a reflection on her class status and the kind of education provided to that segment?

It seems very narrow-minded to me. We have been discussing the sorry state of education in this country for more than a decade on DU, now people suddenly can't fathom that there could be such a thing as semi-literate people coming out of High School, especially in such locales.

What do you expect of her? She is who she is. The way she talks is not pertinent to the trial. The content of her testimony is. If you can't see that I hope you'll never be called to jury duty.

But yeah. I've read your other posts too. She's probably on drugs. It is the most reasonable conclusion. If you can't see the classicism in that, well... Enjoy your stay.

[Democracyinkind]

158. Your questions have been answered by other people in this thread. Do read up.

Good luck with what your peddling here. Do enjoy your stay.

[CreekDog]

206. Cursive is a relic, useless and used less for decades now

time for folks to get over it.

I haven't used cursive since the 1980's and my writing is clearer for it.

[HappyMe]

155. Do tell. Foreigners?

My, they are so lucky to have you around.

[Democracyinkind]

162. It seems his "Ebonics-to-Foreign language" clinic has already been shut down.

His Pizza was well deserved. He outrightly said that she's probably retarded and/or on drugs.

The funny thing about trolls is that they think that we are as stupid as them.

[HappyMe]

163. I could barely stand to

even read that horseshit.

Those posts had it all - racism, classism, use of the word "special", on drugs...

[oldhippie]

168. classicism? ......

Really?

[Democracyinkind]

169. Classism.

I haven't used the word in years, so forgive me for that brain fart.

Or are you objecting to the content of my observation rather than the mistake I made?

[Democracyinkind]

200. And back "he" is.

[Nye Bevan]

180. Shouldn't one goal of High School be to teach the Queen's English? (nt)

[Democracyinkind]

181. It is should be, and is a goal.

I think you're smart enough to know that the American education system regularly fails that goal, because we have other priorities. You're also smart enough to know that we only fail a certain segment of the populace in this.

Simply blaming her, calling her an idiot or a drug addict (as others have done in this very thread) says more about the person making the accusations than about her.

[Whisp]

189. do you mean Ann Romney speaking to 'you people'?

That Queen's English?

[Nye Bevan]

191. No. I mean standard, grammatical, understandable English. (nt)

[Whisp]

194. so for another example, anyone with a foreign accent

shouldn't be on the witness stand either, because they aren't talkin' Queen's?

[Nye Bevan]

197. What does a "foreign accent" have to do with being grammatical?

I know plenty of people with foreign accents who speak perfectly understandably and grammatically.

[Whisp]

198. and some don't. eom

[CreekDog]

284. Nye thinks our high schools should teach us to speak and write as the British are taught

no wonder he was fluffing Thatcher after she died.

[CreekDog]

212. if Margaret Thatcher were on the stand, you'd be defending her

[Nye Bevan]

213. Wow. The Margaret Thatcher thing really, really bothered you, didn't it?

So I won't remind you of her impressive job in the Falklands War and curbing the worst excesses of the 1970s UK unions.

[CreekDog]

209. In a country without a "Queen"?

are you serious or just British?

[Nye Bevan]

211. OK, the President's English (nt)

[CreekDog]

218. so a 19 year old whose friend was murdered needs to speak like a Harvard Law grad?

who just happens to be president?

sometimes i feel better that we don't agree on much.

and why the hell do you mock Nye Bevan's name with that photo of Churchill as your avatar?

hell, you've mocked the socialist Bevan enough with your posts defending the Tory Thatcher, whom Bevan would've hated with ever fiber of his being.

[Nye Bevan]

225. No. Clear, grammatical English would be just fine.

And as I have explained before, I admire Nye Bevan for his advocacy of universal health care (which I support) and Winston Churchill for obvious reasons. Annoying certain DUers is just a bonus. And you must admit, the Iron Lady did have some positive points.

[CreekDog]

226. but you defended Thatcher against any criticism

*any*.

you even falsely said she didn't lie into a war.

she supported the Iraq war, vocally.

[LiberalAndProud]

248. I don't intend this to insult,

but I believe there is unrecognized ethnocentrism at work here.

[Nye Bevan]

251. Well, the President is black and I just praised his English (nt)

[LiberalAndProud]

252. I wasn't referring to racism or bigotry, but more to culture and ethnic identity.

Our President is biracial, I will concede that much. His cultural ethnicity is mixed as well.

[DevonRex]

46. In her own way, she's basically calling him full of shit.

[HappyMe]

144. I agree.

I'm sure she feels the weight of the magnitude of this trial on her shoulders.

I think the excessive criticism of her here is just snotty. Easy enough for people to do sitting at their computers, not on the hot seat.

[uponit7771]

150. +1

[DevonRex]

40. I think she's doing fucking great. She stands up to that asshole defense attorney.

I love her!

[Beaverhausen]

43. what does this line of questioning have to do with anything?

[Tommy_Carcetti]

48. I'm guessing the Defense is going to try to argue that the Martin family used her to concoct a story

Pretty low, but they are caged animals at this point. If the jury takes her story as true, it pretty much destroys Zimmerman's stories.

[alsame]

78. The legal analyst on MSNBC,

I think it's Lisa Bloom, said that if the defense can prove she lies they can ask the jury to disregard all her testimony. Of course, it's up to the jury if they do so, but that's what he's trying to do, have her testimony stricken.

[alsame]

52. He's trying to make her seem like a

chronic liar - she lied about being in the hospital and lied about her age.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

73. The prosecution should be objecting, then. Are they?

[alsame]

79. No, she admitted she lied and

explained why. She lied about being in the hospital to avoid the wake because she "didn't want to see the body" and it was believable and emotional. She said it twice.

She lied about her age (16 instead of 18) because she wanted to avoid media attention and they couldn't come after her if she was a minor.

[uppityperson]

50. The whole thing is difficult, isn't it?

Hang in there, shut it down if you need to. It will come to an end without any of us listening and obsessing (being here we have a tendency to obsess which can be unhealthy sometimes).

[nolabear]

56. LOL! True dat.

[nolabear]

51. There's the trap. He's drawing parallels between two things she said that weren't true.

And he wants the jury to conclude that she's a liar.

[JI7]

57. i thought it made her appear more honest, like she was telling the truth

and wasn't coached, scripted etc .

[Duer 157099]

59. Frustrating to watch indeed

It sounds like the defense is trying to get her to impeach herself, by saying she was talking to him while he was in the store, but the store video shows he was there at 6:23 and yet her phone records (or his) doesn't show them on the phone at that time.

Maybe the store camera clock is not correct???

[riverwalker]

80. her timeline was accurate n/t

[Tommy_Carcetti]

62. I can't believe Don West is spending 5 minutes over friend vs. girlfriend.

I half expect him to ask, "Did Trayvon like you, or did he like you, like you?"

Sheesh.

[frazzled]

63. I think her reticence is working in the prosecution's favor

Both her reticence, her inexperience, and her naivete.

What's coming across is that she didn't want to be involved in this at all, is afraid of the attention, all of which (to me, at least, if I were a juror) makes her testimony about what was said in the calls more believable. I mean, she said Trayvon referred to the guy watching him as "crazy ass cracker." Now, she didn't have to admit that (nobody knew that), so the candidness about the discussion gives more credence to her claims about the rest of what he said.

The lies she'd told to Trayvon's parents also worked in his favor, to an extent ... because they ring so true to how a teenager in that situation might react. She didn't want to go to the wake and see the body, etc., so she told the parents she had been at the hospital. D'oh. That's exactly what kids do. She let them think she was Trayvon's age (16) instead of 18, because she didn't want to have to be considered an adult or speak to the attorneys or the press. It all sounded very authentic to me.

She's not coming across as a partisan who has an ax to grind, but as a reluctant witness for the prosecution ... which is a great thing for the prosecution to have, imo.

[elleng]

69. I agree,

and point Capehart made that West is 'culturally unaware' adds to this.

[Lisa D]

74. I completely agree.

She looks like a reluctant witness, especially since she didn't contact anyone (police, family, etc.) after she learned that Trayvon was murdered.

She comes across as a kid who is nervous on the stand, doesn't like to be the center of attention, and is trying hard to understand the questions. That make her seem authentic to me.

[frazzled]

77. Interesting that we women seem to agree on this

moreso than the men (though I'm not making a head count here, and don't even know whether half the posters are male or female).

But I'm kind of glad the jury is made up of all women.

[uponit7771]

151. we talked about the exact thing last night, very typical teenager..."I don't want to be bothered"

...kinda attitude

[Duer 157099]

64. And WTF is up with the defense comment about

"why did it take him 35 minutes to walk a mile?" bullshit???

JFC

[hrmjustin]

65. Hundreds and hundreds of texts this lawyer asks. That is what kids do.

Kids text a lot.

[all american girl]

170. This dude doesn't know anything about teens, I think

My son, if he had his druthers, only texts. Even my 14 yr old daughter prefers texting. Maybe he should have done a bit of homework....I can't believe the jury really liked that line of questioning. Just my thoughts.

[hrmjustin]

171. I agree!I bet the jury found it mind numbing.

[nolabear]

66. I've gotten kind of fond of her during the course of this. It's a look into a teenager's world.

Lawyer: "But there were hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of texts..."

Yep. And they flirted even though they were just friends. And her friends pretended to be her. And she cleaned up the language when she talked to Trayvon's parents. And she thinks he's an idiot. LOL!

[elleng]

70. Yes, fond of her and sorry for her

being thrust into this situation.

[nolabear]

76. Yes, her instinct for wanting to be anonymous was a good one. This stuff eats you alive.

Hope she comes out okay.

[Autumn]

75. I'm enjoying this and I think she's doing quite well

[Just Saying]

72. She's young and nervous

And discussing her friend's murder.

Not an easy thing at all. I think the jury takes all that into account.

[Brickbat]

88. This. Right here.

The trouble with compelling law'n'order TV is that when the real thing happens, we're disappointed and troubled when it doesn't look like TV.

[Democracyinkind]

101. I think you're making a very important point here.

This is the first time I'm following a case in this detail. I've never watched these types of TV shows and I found nothing wrong with her. Being unnerved is quite understandable given the context.

Some of the things I'm reading here seem extremely condescending to her.

[davidpdx]

137. +1

She's doing the best she can under a stressful situation. I'm sure deciding to testify was hard, but she did the right thing given the fact that her friend was murdered.

[CreekDog]

214. Given the OP's track record, I feel good knowing about the witness knowing she feels bad about it

[arely staircase]

83. the parents crying probably sealed his fate

nt

[msanthrope]

84. She's doing very well..in fact I think the defense's treatment of her is poorly

thought out and will backfire.

[ksoze]

87. She is doing horribly and a poor witness

She is an angry, confused witness who is being impeached on some critical issues. Her attitude of complaining about being there for a few hours also will not play well to jurors locked there 24 x 7 for weeks. She is well coached but also very telling where her vulnerability is as she becomes belligerent.

[msanthrope]

89. This isn't Law and Order..she's doing just fine. nt

[ksoze]

90. Fine for the defense

[magical thyme]

96. being questioned for hours is not the same as observing for hours

not to mention being questioned on something personal and emotional.

She may well simply appear human and emotionally vulnerable to the jurors.

[ksoze]

98. But she is the star prosecution witness

She has to expect a few hours, especially when she spends some of the time being intelligible to the court. I agree she is under stress and it is a horrible situation, but the P put her on and they knew she would be questioned about her known inconsistencies.

[magical thyme]

118. did the prosecution call her their star witness?

Or is that your interpretation or expectation?

I think she is one of many witnesses. In a case this important, I don't think any halfway decent lawyer would think of any one piece of evidence or any one witness as a "star" on which the outcome hinges. There will be many witnesses; some will hold up better than others, and some will give somewhat conflicting evidence. But if their basic story corroborates, and the physical evidence further supports it, that is what will matter.

Knowing you will be grilled for hours, and being grilled for hours are 2 different things. I imagine it's a lot unlike performing. Practicing singing in the shower is not the same as singing in the empty recital hall. And singing in the empty recital hall is not the same as singing in a dress rehearsal, with conductor and orchestra. And none of them is *anything* like the actual performance. I've had dress rehearsals where I could clearly hear my voice over the orchestra, echoing back at me from the furthest corner of the hall. Only to have my voice totally sucked up and disappear, dampened by the audience dressed in winter woolens. Not to mention that the emotions are totally different, cruising through the dress rehearsal like a game, whereas the live performance caused unexpected dry mouth, constricted throat, nausea, panic, etc.

[Myrina]

217. I agree ... thinly veiled beneath her "Yes sir"s are simmering "Fuck the hell off".

I don't know her reasons for not wanting to be there, I can guess they are many.
Having dealt with crime victims and their families at the state level, I know there is no love for "the man's machine" in certain socio-economic groups.

Her passive-aggressiveness - which over the last hour has become more apparent - isn't going to help the prosecution. I think the Defense Attorney is trying to goad her into either going off on him, or blatantly contradicting herself which would allow him to cast doubt on everything else she's testified to.

[magical thyme]

86. how long has she been on the stand?

Maybe she's getting tired. This has got to be very emotional and stressful for her. You can be prepped for a lot of things, but not the emotional stress and physical exhaustion...

[darkangel218]

91. I believe they suspended her testimony until tomorrow.

She didn't do too bad in the end.

[csziggy]

108. I love her exasperation when she heard she'd have to come back

For two more hours at least tomorrow. I hope she doesn't skip out - that would be damaging to her and to the prosecution case.

I really like her. I like the way she's standing up to the defense attorney and not letting mess her up. I like the how she doesn't try to hide her irritation at him.

I've met a lot of people who talk the way she does and who have no experience with law enforcement or court dealings. Given her age and probable background I think she did brilliantly.

[Duer 157099]

92. If she is 19 now and still in high school

(is she?) then maybe the age thing had to do with her being embarrassed about maybe being held back, and telling classmates that she was younger than she is. I've seen that happen with other kids before. The defense tried to make it about her trying to be a minor to avoid testifying, but it probably had more to do with her peers.

And this defense attorney is a jerk, I'd want to slap him if I were on that stand and he was talking to me like he is to her. He's trying to draw it out so that the jurors get frustrated with the witness, when it is his fault and he's doing it on purpose. He's deliberately using vague pronouns to confuse her "he did this, she said that" etc and then when she gets confused, he gets to condescend to her. He's a jerk.

If he would just let her talk and tell her story!

[ksoze]

94. The defense attorney was fine with her. She tripped herself up.

And no one just "tells a story" when testifying. A defense witness will getthe same treatment bu the prosecution under cross.

[Kingofalldems]

99. I'll alert the prosecutor re your concerns

[darkangel218]

103. Ill tell my pet cat what you said. nt

[CreekDog]

220. before or after the self delete?

[DrDan]

102. agree - horrible witness - has given contradictory responses

and the defense will be bookmarking them

[KT2000]

109. at the time

she was 18 and probably a young 18 since she apparently was held back in school. Her mother was not there to help her and she had to figure things out on her own. Her main concerns were those of a teenager - devastation about her friend being murdered, not wanting to see Trayvon's mother's emotions, not wanting to see Trayvon's body, not wanting to talk to police or lawyers.
She was scared and who could blame her - she was on her own.

I believe the defense is purposely trying to confuse her. She thinks chronologically and West is picking out items that skip from one time to another with no continuity other than trying to catch her in a lie.

He also intentionally "does not get" her current references such as 48 hours and texting culture for teens.

[HipChick]

110. She is doing fine...I would have cussed that prick of a lawyer by now

[ksoze]

113. Which would make you a great defense witness

[Glimmer of Hope]

121. She was deposed by him before and understandably finds him annoying. She is sick of him.

[Fantastic Anarchist]

114. I came home after work and told my girlfriend the same thing.

I hadn't seen the whole testimony, but from what I saw, I hope the prosecution isn't hinging on her. She was terrible.

Also, there is a thing called decorum, and she displayed a woeful lack of respects (from what I saw) for the proceedings.

I hope Trayvon gets his justice, and I hope she doesn't fuck it up for him.

Edit: Clarification

[RandiFan1290]

120. All the racists are attacking this young woman on the freeper sites

So, I wasn't surprised to see this here as well.

It's not her job to entertain you.

[darkangel218]

124. My OP wasnt racist and i didnt see any racist posts in this thread.

What are you doing on "freeper" sites anyway? That tells a lot about you.

[RandiFan1290]

125. Yeah, I read freeper sites

I also listen to Glenn Beck and a little Limbaugh. Makes it easier to spot their bullshit when people try to pawn it off here.

[darkangel218]

131. Good for you. Youre ignored.

[RandiFan1290]

133. Oh noes!

This is the 3rd time!! lolerz

[bike man]

186. The first two were self-deleted. nt

[RandiFan1290]

270. lol

[EOTE]

126. What a sickening comment to make.

I'm guessing pretty much all here who were upset over this young woman's testimony more than anything want justice for Trayvon Martin and have issues with her testimony because they feel it might prevent Trayvon's family from receiving the justice they deserve. For you to act like those who have issues with this extremely rude and impatient testimony are racists is sick and insidious.

[RandiFan1290]

128. She's not a pro

She's not a fucking actress. It's not her job to impress you or entertain you. I would have a hard time knowing I was on TV while trying to recall shit that happened years ago. This is real life not a TV show.

[EOTE]

129. What a ridiculous bunch of strawmen bullshit.

No one is asking for her to entertain anyone, they're asking that she not be an incredibly rude asshole. I'm actually a little bit surprised that she wasn't at least threatened with being held in contempt of court. They're asking that she show a tiny bit of decorum and they're asking her not to be so incredibly impatient that she tells contradictory information numerous times. What ridiculous bullshit.

[RandiFan1290]

132. Maybe you watch too much TV

This is real life. People are nervous and get annoyed at assholes. It's bound to happen.

[EOTE]

134. Maybe you're far too quick to throw out sickening accusations of racism.

And maybe that shows far more about you than any of the people you intend to insult.

[djean111]

135. There are OPs calling people racist if they do not agree with Obama all the time.

Do these get flagged as OTT and insulting?

[EOTE]

156. I'd hope so, but it seems like the bulk go unchallenged.

It's incredibly sad, more so for the people throwing out the accusations than anything else.

[WI_DEM]

247. Nobody is asking for an actress

they want somebody who is consistent in their testimony and is respectful in court.

[ksoze]

127. Slow down Comrade. Opinions not yours are not auto-racist

Anything that criticizes the prosecutors case here is dismissed. Have not seen anyone here not horrified by the death of Trayvon, just some opinions on how witnesses fared, the facts and the tatics used by both sides. Like its supposed to be.

[uponit7771]

152. +1

[pipi_k]

160. This

is totally uncalled for.

You know what I find strange?

People who run around calling others "racists" always seem to be the first to notice that the people they are "defending" are a different race or color. Now why is that, I wonder...

Was the witness black? I hadn't noticed. So glad you pointed it out, though.

sigh...

[BklnDem75]

136. She did fine.

I heard everything she said the first time. The defense attorney was being an asshole, making her repeat herself simply to frustrate her. She was only asked to speak louder so the court reporter could be accurate. This is the norm for every jury I ever served in. Don't expect Law and Order or the People's Court.

[pipi_k]

157. I thought much

the same thing myself. She's not helping the prosecution any. And she's coming off as a very hostile witness.

There was no reason I could see for her shitty attitude and snotty answers to some of the defense attorney's questions, even though he was not being aggressive or confrontational.

He seemed to be playing her like a violin, and she fell right into his hands.

She really needs some attitude adjustment talk from the prosecutor.

Also...for the people claiming she's "just a kid"...

Like it's been pointed out...she's 19.

Old enough, in some states, to drink. Old enough to drive a car (which is a 2000+ lb. potential weapon). She is old enough to be a parent, with the life of a baby or toddler in her hands.

Old enough to qualify for lots of adult rights and responsibilities.

But she's "too young" to understand the importance of a court proceeding involving the murder of her friend?

Please stop the ridiculousness.

Even my 12 year old granddaughter would understand how to act in a courtroom.

[JohnnyRingo]

161. I just hope she tells the unvarnished truth.

It'll be a disaster if she even exagerates a minor detail a little. These defense lawyers will amplify that and render her entire testimony moot.

I have no reason to think she will, but sometimes witnesses who are friends of the victim try to "help" the prosecution by adding to the testimony.

[graham4anything]

164. Trayvon Martin's friend's name is Rachel Jeantel and my heart breaks for her.

We should all have someone whose heart is broken over someone who has died.
Let alone that Trayvon Martin was brutally assassssinated in cold blood

I only wish that it was 1st degree murder with appropriate penalty
but I do hope it will be GUILTY and with NO chance of parole.

and this is my one and only comment in a thread of 160 posts

and I had much seen anyone say

Trayvon Martin's friend's name is Rachel Jeantel and my heart breaks for her.

[adric mutelovic]

174. wait. I thought she was his girlfriend

I am confused.

[graham4anything]

179. I am not confused about anything. I hold these truth's to be self-evident.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

230. Yes.

You are.

[LittleBlue]

173. She is a nightmare witness

It was hard for the courtroom to hear anything she was saying. The constant interruptions asking her to speak up ruined the flow of her testimony.

I noticed people on twitter were destroying her. She will be blamed if the Martin trial ends in acquittal.

[southernyankeebelle]

176. I think she is a terrible witness. She mumbles way to much.

[Gin]

177. She cant read cursive,because......its not taught in school anymore

I was shocked to learn that from my grandkids.....

WTH?

[lpbk2713]

182. That's the Florida school system for you.

"Is our children learning?"


It's not the childrens' fault, or the teachers. It's the fault
of those who decide policy and what the priorities will be.

[bike man]

185. See my response #184. Both grandsons read cursive, both in Florida

schools, from K on.

[HockeyMom]

190. Collier County has stopped it

I worked in their public schools from 2007 to 2011. The argument they gave was that it was a waste of time. The children can print and use a computer.

[lpbk2713]

224. I'd venture to guess your grandsons didn't attend Miami inner city schools, as did Ms Jeantel.

No doubt they offer the path of least resistance to obtaining a HS diploma for some although I'm sure they also have college bound AP courses for others. I would think your grandsons were fortunate enough to have a syllabus more comparable to the latter than the former.

[bike man]

259. So is it the Miami inner city schools, or the Florida school system, as post 182 suggests?

182. That's the Florida school system for you.

The oldest grandson (Stetson graduate) is married to a Univ of Fla graduate, and both of those were in the Florida system their entire education career.

[bike man]

184. Odd. I have one 19 yr old grandson, just finished first yr college, and he reads

reads cursive just fine.

Another graduated from Stetson last year, also reads cursive.

Both went to public high school.

[Gin]

188. Found this on google...Wahingotn Post article.....but there are many other sources.

Last edited Thu Jun 27, 2013, 01:04 PM - Edit history (1)

And educators, seeking to prepare students for a successful future in which computer and typing skills have usurped penmanship, are finding cursive’s relevance waning, especially with leaner school budgets and curricula packed with standardized testing prep. So they’re opting not to teach it anymore.


I think it is a mistake.....how does one sign documents or checks?

[HockeyMom]

192. They will print it

or sign electronically, they say. We can a discussion on this a few years ago. Personally, I do not agree.

[bike man]

193. Some of them must be getting it from somewhere. Where would we place the blame for

the ones who are not getting the instruction needed - No Child Left Behind or Race to the Top? Or a combination?

[WinkyDink]

216. Check their ages again. Then ask a 10-year-old.

[bike man]

256. Don't need to check their ages, I've known them since they were babies. And here

on DU there are posts about a 19 year old who cannot read cursive. Now that is just pitiful.

By the age of 10, even when cursive instruction was common/everyday, a child was fairly familiar with the system.

At 19, a young adult should have learned to figure some stuff out. If that 19 year old, even without that 'old timey' cursive instruction, has not noticed that cursive is essentially printing without lifting the pen from the paper, and cannot make out a word such as "bear" in cursive, that is, as mentioned in an earlier line, pitiful. (Note that 'bear' is used as an example, not wanting responses asking if I thought the defense attorney had asked the young adult to identify any specific words.)

That should be blamed on the student - not the teacher, not the school, not even Bush or Obama - the student.

[Sheepshank]

250. and I happen to know a 19 year old

that can't read, write, sit, or feed themselves.

There is a broad spectrum of abilities and disabilities that affect people of the same age. To require or expect utter conformance is ridiculous.

She is what and who she is. Probably scared shitless of the whole legal system, realizing the weight of her situation, and is angry at this stupid killing, angry that she can't necessrily articulate everything rattling around in her head, has 3 dozen prep issues to balance (short answers, clear thoughts, sit straight, look attny in the eyes, don't cry, don't look at the parents, keep calm, don't yell, etc etc etc)and trying to deal with an asshole knock knock attorney, and has her own hard knock demons to deal with. We are just lucky she isn't some prissy spoiled little princess vomiting over everything.

[FloridaJudy]

257. Exactly!

Looking at this young woman's testimony, the impression I'm getting is of some degree of cognitive impairment, combined with an abysmal education. She's way out of her comfort zone, surrounded by people who don't look or talk like her and being harried by intimating-looking authority figures. She's doing the best she can.

I feel painfully sorry for her. It's not her fault that she's not an intelligent, articulate woman, schooled in the intricacies of the legal system. Unfortunately, she's not doing the prosecution any favors, but she was the next-to-the-last-person to speak to Trevon alive, and they're stuck with her.

She doesn't come off as surly or defiant to me - just sad and confused. When Scalia rolls his eyes at Ginsburg, it's deliberate disrespect. When she rolls hers, it feels more like "WTF did he just say, and how am I supposed to answer?!"

[bike man]

258. The 19 yr old in your example probable would not be a prosecution witness, either.

As to your final paragraph, it must really suck to be an adult and have to do all those adult things.

[Sheepshank]

272. The fact that you didn't grasp the idea that there is a spectrum

is pretty darned sad.

[bike man]

273. As is assigning all sorts of reasons to justify poor performance. No one here

knows anything about this young adult other than that fact - she is a young adult. But to justify/make excuses for the performance on the witness stand, for whatever reason, is equally sad.

[Sheepshank]

275. and your constant appearance on the stand

as a primary witness to a murder is so fucking amazing. you know exactly how it should go down, and how ecer single 19 year old should act?

You need for conformity and uniformity isn't very progressive, my friend.

[WinkyDink]

215. I WOULD LIKE EVERY DU'ER TO READ YOUR POST. Too many defend this practice.

[Nye Bevan]

178. If this person is the prosecution's "star witness", the prosecution is in big trouble.

Last edited Thu Jun 27, 2013, 11:59 AM - Edit history (1)

Just an awful performance. And how can she not know what a map is?

And she heard "the sound of wet grass"? I wonder how that went down with the jury.

[ecstatic]

187. I admit, I did a lot of face palming, but

did anyone pay attention when she said she was 19 and will be starting her senior year of high school? There's a possibility of cognitive delays of some kind, or it could be that Trayvon's death was so traumatic that she was unable to graduate on time.

Did anyone think to offer this young lady grief counseling to deal with her emotions?

While I enjoyed her unconventional approach to responding to Mr. Don, I don't think she should have been made to testify for the reasons stated above.

[Lisa D]

210. The context of the question was if she recognized that map

as the neighborhood where Trayvon was killed. Since she'd never been to that neighborhood, she didn't recognize the map of it.

[B Calm]

183. I thought the same thing and I watched

it live. She came across to me as a very stupid person.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

195. She's doing a pretty good job pushing back against West's attempts....

...to trap her into agreeing with Zimmerman's story, which is that Trayvon attacked him.

Not giving in an inch where it's most important.

[Samantha]

268. I agree with you

She might not be well educated for whatever reason but she is very smart. She knows exactly what the defense attorney is trying to do and she has successfully blocked him a number of times.

Who can blame her for rolling her eyes when he repeatedly asks the same question, obviously hoping she comes up with a different answer than the first or second or even the third time he asked that question earlier. She recognizes the traps he sets for her and successfully navigates her way out of them. I cannot believe how many times she simply looked at him and said, "I do not watch the news" after he prefaced several questions with "When you heard on the news" implying she was testifying to information she heard broadcasted as opposed to information she had from her own personal knowledge.

The so-called legal experts on cable have said he has made some inroads on painting her as a liar. She did not tell the truth to the victim's mother about why she did attend the funeral service. She said she went to the hospital. She did not go to the hospital but simply used this as a reason for excusing her absence. The truth of the matter was that she did not want to see her friend's body on display in a casket. So imagine if she gave the literal truth as the answer to the mother's question -- that would have shown a lack of sensitivity for the mother. So instead she gave a false statement to avoid making a cold-hearted statement to Trayvon's mother. I call that a compassionate untruth.

And yes, she did mislead initially about her age but that was in the interest of protecting her privacy. I certainly can understand that. That is also the reason she signed the letter to Trayvon's mom with a "pen" name. When listening to the reasons she has given for the issues the defense attorney has chosen to discredit her credibility, her responses to him have come across as extremely reasonable, not deceptive or vicious.

For anyone here to call her stupid as I have read is to deny this young woman the credit she deserves for deflecting the defense attorney's moves to put words in her mouth, trick her into changing prior statements or simply changing her story.

Not only did she serve herself well but in so doing, she also served the best interests of her slain friend by refusing to allow the defense attorney to derail her efforts to help achieve justice for that friend and and all those that loved him.

Sam

[Myrina]

202. I'm not sure who's harder to listen to ....

.... she's being awfully passive aggressive in her 'yes sir/no sir'-only responses. One can almost describe her as a hostile witness, you can tell she doesn't want to be there.

Buuuuttt{/i], the Defense Attorney is obviously trying to confuse, badger and trip her up, which is making him look like an asshole.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

204. Rule of thumb while being questioned by the opposing attorney:

Answer only the question being asked. Answer yes or no if at all possible. Don't give them any leeway to exploit your answer.

Here's an example, Goofus and Gallant style:

Attorney; Do you know what time it is?
Goofus: It's 12:30.

Attorney; Do you know what time it is?
Gallant: Yes.

[Nye Bevan]

205. LOL nt

[Myrina]

221. ... and you went to law school, where?

Please and thanks.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

238. :)

Not gonna tell.

[SlipperySlope]

233. More of that conversation...

Attorney; Do you know what time it is?
Gallant; Yes.

Attorney; Could you tell us what time it is?
Gallant; Yes.

Attorney; Could you tell us right now what time it is?
Gallant; Yes.

Attorney; Just tell us what time it is!
Opposing Attorney; Objection, lacks a question.
Judge; Sustained.

Attorney; Could you tell us what time it is?
Opposing Attorney; Objection, asked and answered.
Judge; Sustained.

Attorney; What time is it now?
Gallant; What time is it where?

Attorney; What time is it now here in this courtroom?
Gallant; Daytime

Attorney; What time does your watch say it is?
Gallant; I'm not wearing a watch.

Attorney; How do you know what time it is?
Gallant; I'm looking at the clock over your shoulder.

[pokerfan]

244. LOL

You beat me to it because I was about to go there. My favorite lawyer joke allegedly from an actual trial:

A defending attorney was cross examining a coroner. The attorney asked, "Before you signed the death certificate had you taken the man's pulse?"
The coroner said, "No."
The attorney then asked, "Did you listen for a heart beat?"
"No."
"Did you check for breathing?"
"No."
"So when you signed the death certificate you had not taken any steps to make sure the man was dead, had you?"
The coroner, now tired of the brow beating said, "Well, let me put it this way. The man's brain was sitting in a jar on my desk, but for all I know he could be out there practicing law somewhere."

[Sheepshank]

253. I've been a witness on behalf of the presecution in court, several times

in every case, I was asked to be extremely brief (yes/no if possible) and polite. She is doing exactly what the prosecutor wants her to do. He can always ask her to clarify on cross examination.

No law degree needed for this little tid bit of well used info.

[arely staircase]

208. i don't think z's lawyers are helping him much

dude's going to prison.

[uponit7771]

223. +1, they cant make RJ less credible now...they're droning for no reason

[CreekDog]

222. considering your posts are full of malaprops and errors

criticizing her doesn't put you in a good light.

[darkangel218]

241. Lmao! is that all you could come up with?

[Boudica the Lyoness]

235. She did hurt the case as far as I'm concerned.

Not because of her attitude and the way she spoke. She made me wonder if Martin did go after Zimmerman first. Now I'm wondering if, based on her conversation she was having with Martin, if Martin thought Zimmerman was following him in order to 'rape' him. I believe she mentioned that word. Also Martin told her Zimmerman was "creepy". Maybe Martin did rush Zimmerman thinking he was just a creepy old man, maybe a pedophile, in order to scare him off. If that was his thinking, he'd have no idea that Zimmerman was carrying a gun and was in a completely different mindset.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

236. If you lost someone who you think was trying to rape you....

....Why on earth would you decide to do an about face and go back and confront him?

Does that make any sense at all?

Logic, people, logic.

[grok]

254. sometimes "crackers/pedos" need to be taught a lesson

Happens in prison all the time. A matter of honor so they say.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

255. Say what???? Who is this "they" of which you speak?

Last edited Thu Jun 27, 2013, 04:47 PM - Edit history (1)

What?

Trayvon attacked Zimmerman who was chasing him, and he lost, to "teach him a lesson"?

[darkangel218]

263. You forgot the sarcasm smile, buddy

[grok]

264. I thought i was being obvious...

my bad...

[Boudica the Lyoness]

280. Because stalkers or creeps are usually scared off easily.

They are looking for an easy mark and the last thing they want is confrontation. Martin was a young man and probably thought he was pretty tough and could scare the "creepy cracker" off by briefly confronting him. In Martin's mind, Zimmerman was a creepy little stalker and in Zimmerman's mind, Martin was a dangerous criminal.

Zimmerman had no intent to kill Martin. He wasn't stalking him with intent to kill, otherwise he would have had his gun out and Martin wouldn't have been able to land blows on Zimmerman. As a person who has held a loaded gun on someone to protect myself, you have the gun aimed at someone to stop the threat from getting close enough to do you harm. Martin would not have confronted him if he knew he had a gun.........no way in hell would he have............let alone made physical contact.

If Zimmerman was following him with intent to kill, he would have had his gun drawn. If he had his gun drawn, Martin would have run!

I'm using logic here, so bare with me.... If Martin had "lost" Zimmerman, there wouldn't be a trail right now. Martin would have returned to the All Star game and eaten his Skittles and Zimmerman would still be wandering around looking for bad guys.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

283. Sorry, I don't buy that for a minute.

You are being followed by a suspicious person, a person you believe might sexually assault you, you run from him, lose him, and then you come back to him?

Both Zimmerman's and Rachel's account agree on one major thing: Zimmerman chased and then lost Trayvon. It's possible he started walking slower after losing him, it's possible he may have hid out for a minute or two to see if he really lost Zimmerman, but it's non-sensical that he would then choose to return and "ambush" Zimmerman.

Zimmerman may not have had an intent to kill Trayvon when he stepped out of his car. But intent to kill and premeditation isn't really central in 2nd Degree murder. It would only be an issue in a 1st degree murder case, which this is not.

[applegrove]

265. I like her. She's obviously not going to take crap from that horrid defence attorney.

She calls him out. She's taken the whole story seriously. She gets visibly angry when he tries to change the narrative of the last moments of Trayvon's life. I said I was not going to watch coverage but here I am sucked in. To be fair the story if everywhere.

[hack89]

271. The defense crushed her credibility

In the next sentence, however, he cut the heart out of any credibility her testimony might have had. The great strength of Jeantel’s testimony was based in her claims of what she had overheard martin and Zimmerman say to each other. In earlier statements–including a letter to Fulton and a recorded phone interview with family lawyer/advisor Crump–she had said that Martin had first asked Zimmerman, “Why you following me,” to which Zimmerman had responded, she said, “What are you talking about?” Such a response is clearly not confrontational, but rather defensive, in nature, the utterance of someone who is confused by a sudden act of confrontation.

On April 2, however, Jeantel had a an interview under oath with Mr. de la Rionda, in which her story changed considerably. Here, for the first time, she recounted Zimmerman’s response as being quite aggressive, and much more in line with the State’s theory of the case that Zimmerman had “profiled,” “followed,” and murdered Martin.

Here, for the first time, Jeantel claimed that she had hear Zimmerman say not the defensive phrase, “What are you talking about?” but much more confrontational phrase, “What are you doing around here?” In this new telling, Zimmerman became for the first time in Jeantel’s testimony, aggressive and territorial, much as a high-strung dog might confront someone or something encroaching on its property.

Jeante’s statement was not taken by de la Rioida at the Jacksonville State Prosecutor’s office, where he had his own office worked, nor at any Florida Department of Law Enforcement (FDLE) facility, nor the Sanford Police Department, nor even Jeantel’s home, nor some other neutral location. Instead, Jeantel was picked up at a friends house by a two-car caravan consisting of de la Rionda, a State prosecutor’s office investigator, Sabrina Fulton, and Crump (this last in allegedly the alternative vehicle to the car in which Jeantel was riding). They travelled together in this way to sit in the living room of the home of Sabrina Fulton, the very home in which Trayvon Martin had lived until his mother had recently sent the troubled and troublesome youth to go live with his father.

She changed her story while sitting next to Travyon's mother in Trayvon's home.

Further, Wests deliberate questioning soon had Jeantel admitting without hesitation that she had molded her testimony to minimize any pain she might cause Sabrina Fulton, silently weeping beside her.

http://legalinsurrection.com/2013/06/zimmerman-trial-day-end-of-day-analysis-video-of-states-witnesses//#more

[arthritisR_US]

274. What a bullsh*t accounting. Given Brietbart is on their

web page as one of the blogs suggested reads... Their synopsis lacks credibility, IMO.

[hack89]

276. So you have a transcript that says something different?

good - can you forward the link?

[Just Saying]

278. There's very little transcript in your link

It's commentary and select video clips. I actually find the part you quoted convoluted and confusing. What's their point exactly?

That she lied in front of Trayvon's mom? I can understand that.

I watched most of her testimony live and the big lies they tried to catch her in were things that don't really pertain to what happened the night of the murder- like lying about her age or why she didn't attend the funeral. Her explanations seemed believable.

I've been on a jury where teens and kids testified. From my personal experience, jurors know that defense attorneys will go after prosecution witnesses, they understand the frustration of witnesses and they understand the nervousness involved in taking the stand. I think they also can relate to the human emotions one feels when someone a witness cares about is a victim of a violent crime. Juries should know (and I personally have heard them instructed in other cases) that real court isn't a TV show. Real crimes and real people are far more sloppy and unpredictable.

[hack89]

279. The inference is that the state influenced her to get the statement they wanted

so they could prosecute Zimmerman.

Why would they take her to Travyon's mother's house, sit her next to the mom, and then take her statement? A statement that differed from her first statement?

It crazy - why not interview at DA's office or the local police station.

[Just Saying]

281. I have no idea.

The jury is probably thinking the same thing as me-So? It really only matters what she says on the stand now and if they believe her. I think she came across as pretty credible if a bit immature. At the very least we know she was on the phone with Trayvon right before and that a "creepy cracker" was following him.

I personally don't think her testimony was necessary to charge Zimmerman. I think the bullet hole in an unarmed kid's chest was enough.

[hack89]

282. When you have other prosecution witnesses confirming Zimmerman's account

that Martin was on top of him and pounding the shit out of him then perhaps that bullet hole won't be enough.

[atreides1]

277. In the end...

...all that matters is what the 6 members of the jury decide!