Snowden and Freedom

[arely staircase]

Today, the (arguably reactionary conservative) Supreme Court of the United States held that gay Americans could not be singled out as a class for discrimination. Meanwhile, Edward Snowden is hunkered down in a country where :

"Moscow's top court has ruled that no gay pride parades may be held in Moscow for 100 years.[8] In 2013, Russia's lower house of parliament unanimously (436-0, with one abstention) passed a federal bill banning the distribution of "propaganda of non-traditional sexual relations" to minors and the holding of gay rights rallies anywhere in the country.[9][10] If endorsed by the upper house of parliament and signed by President Vladimir Putin, the law will impose heavy fines for using the media or internet to promote "non-traditional relations."[10]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay_rights_in_Russia

[hrmjustin]

1. Well said!

I love to hear him explain that.

[Luminous Animal]

6. I'm pretty sure it is because he hates LGBTQs. I mean, what other reason could he have.

[hrmjustin]

8. Well when you claim you are upset are civil rights are being trampled on but than go to

countries that have worse records, something is wrong with that picture.

[arely staircase]

12. precisely

nt

[Luminous Animal]

18. Really.When was the last time that you petitioned the Obama admin to cut off ties with Saudi Arabia?

[arely staircase]

50. I didn't know I could

I should try that. Is there a form you fill out?

[Luminous Animal]

51. Your own thoughts written with pen & paper.

[Luminous Animal]

16. Um. He travelled to countries less likely to extradite him?

You do know that Saudi Arabia is an ally of the U.S., don't you? Both China and Russia are U.S. trading partners. How often have you petitioned our government to cease relations with these civil rights bashing nations?

[hrmjustin]

21. None but I am not the one who release classified info that said our government is spying on us, and

then run to another country that has a worse history of civil rights abuses.

Don't get me wrong I am not in favor of the governments spying on us, but it seems to me if he really wanted the attention on the story he would not have revealed himself. Or at least he would have waited more time so that the story would have gotten more attention. With him revealing himself so soon the story became more and more about him. He wanted the attention and thinks he is a great hero.

Again I am not in favor of the NSA program but I do not trust Snowden and do not think he is a hero.

[gholtron]

53. Well said

K&R

[Whisp]

2. why, it's a really progressive country compared to the U.S.

[Luminous Animal]

3. No doubt he picked Russia as a stop over because of all those reasons.

[BlueCheese]

4. Why does it matter?

What do gay rights in Russia have to do with NSA surveillance? What does anything about Snowden personally have to do with whether the NSA surveillance program is a good idea?

[arely staircase]

10. Going to an authoritarian country with 4 stolen laptops

full of national security secrets from your own demonstrably much more free country matters a great deal. It makes you a traitor. And you know what, sometimes even being a traitor is arguably OK - like say a German who betrayed his/her country in WW2. But Mr. Snowden has betrayed his country for first, totalitarian China and now authoritarian Russia. If you don't think the Chinese got every bit of info off those laptops (and the Russians are getting it now) that is just naïve.

[BlueCheese]

11. This all distracts from the more important issue of NSA surveillance.

Whether Snowden personally is a good guy or not isn't really important to me.

[arely staircase]

13. so then why do it (go to Russia, China)?

come back here and state your case. Defend yourself. and edited to ask, you really don't care if the Russians and Chinese have access to American secrets? OK.

[BlueCheese]

17. Are you asking me if I'm a loyal American or not?

[arely staircase]

20. of course not, please don't think that

I don't like the Patriot Act, never have. I, actually think the NSA collection of phone metadata is an intrusive overreach and disagree with the courts that it is constitutional. But you know what? I'm not the courts. I accept that I may disagree with the law sometimes. But I think Putin or the Chinese having access to those laptops is really bad too. Those are not mutually exclusive points of view.

[BlueCheese]

28. Thank you for the clarification.

To answer your question, obviously I'd rather not have Russia and China get access to classified info.

I simply worry that the focus on Snowden is being used to downplay the importance of the NSA surveillance itself. As you say, they're separate issues, and I think the surveillance issue is more important than Snowden's own ethics. (I personally don't regard him as a hero or a devil.)

I apologize if my last question sounded too aggrieved. Cheers.

[Luminous Animal]

19. He stole the laptops? Ooh, the telephone game aspect of this story gets better and better.

[arely staircase]

23. what is on them is more important

hell the Chinese probably made the laptops.

[NoOneMan]

5. Are Gay Married Government Workers Spying on us?

Are straight ones? Does Snowden wear boxers or briefs? Shake the magic PRISM....try again later.

[baldguy]

7. But, but, but ... HE'S A *HERO*!

[Luminous Animal]

9. He's a witch! Er, I mean he's a homophobe! That's the ticket. He flew on a Russian airline

to Moscow because he's a homophobe. Had absolutely nothing to do with the fact that it is an international hub to countries that are likely to offer him asylum.

[baldguy]

15. Oh, I'm sure it's because of his love for freedom & liberty.

[Luminous Animal]

22. He's lived his life in a country (now increasingly revealed) infamous for spying on their citizens.

[baldguy]

26. Here, this is for you:

[grasswire]

30. and he stole laptops made in CHina!! GASP

Is there no end to his perfidy?

[arely staircase]

39. pretty sure the hardware isn't what's problematic

nt

[GeorgeGist]

14. Non Sequitor.

But thanks for playing.

[Luminous Animal]

25. He's hoping to propagandize "the gays".

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

24. Could it possibly be that he feels safer in an "authoritatian" country than in his own.

Has Russian accused him of being a spy? Has it issued a warrant for his arrest? No.

But, our "free" country, with its "transparent" government, that doesn't torture (well except for whistle blowers and inmates at Guantanamo) has.

[Luminous Animal]

27. I'd fell safer in a country that is an adversary. There is no way that I would fly to Canada,

anywhere in Western Europe, Saudi Arabia, Australia, Mexico, Columbia, Vietnam...

I would fly to a powerful adversary.

[arely staircase]

29. no doubt

just don't go giving lectures on freedom while asking fascists for help - a ffs don't give them secret info.

[Luminous Animal]

47. He wasn't helped by fascists. He was helped by Wikileaks.

[arely staircase]

52. geting advice on this from assange is like getting the enron dudes to do your taxes from jail

I don't think he has a great track record on getting unstuck from tight spots.

[Luminous Animal]

48. You are right. He should have flown to our ally Saudi Arabia. Beacon of freedom for

women and gays.

[arely staircase]

49. at this point I could totally see him going there

China, Russia then why not where all the 911 hijackers came from? but since yeah we are cozy with those particular a-holes he probably won't. maybe Iran? maybe Iraq (depending on what year this is and whether we hate or love them.) Afghanistan? Just the Taliban part. Pakistan would be confusing because they are our allies, but secretly our enemies, or is it the other way around?

[Narkos]

31. Spoken like a true patriot

[Gravitycollapse]

32. How jingoistic of you.

[Narkos]

33. That's good dude. Roget's thesaurus antonyms?

[Gravitycollapse]

34. Jingoism is a pretty standard word in popular vernacular.

But go ahead and make fun of me for using big words. Big words for big minds. Small words for small minds.

[Narkos]

35. Haha! I always thought it was "small minds, big words"?

[Gravitycollapse]

36. Only in your warped little world, my friend.

[Narkos]

38. Thank you. Now I know I am in the presence of a "big mind"

[treestar]

44. this is truly jumping the shark

Russian government can torture who it wants, tap who it wants, issue warrants of arrest it wants or just arrest without warrants, you Snowden fans have got to be kidding. There is nothing you won't say to defend this loser's actions!

They won't even let him into their country and have him stuck in the airport for eternity.

Our country is tons more free and transparent. Do you think leakers of Russian classified documents live very long? OMG.

[Narkos]

45. Agreed. This place is weird these days

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

46. Are you saying we should mimic them?

[Cha]

37. Snowden: "I'll just sneak off to Russia from China and give them Secrets because Russia good, China

good, USA baaaaad.. Especially that Democratic President Barack Obama." "I want Ron Paul or fucking nothing"

[arely staircase]

40. I know, right?

Goodness in descending order according to Snowden:

Ron Paul
CPC (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_China)
Vladamir Putin
.
.
.
.
.
Obama
The Devil?

[Cha]

41. Yes, only I'm thinking according to Snowden's mentality.. that

Pres Obama=the devil.. poor thing.. that hate will get him exactly nowhere.

[arely staircase]

42. yeah I wasn't sure which to put lowest

nt

[treestar]

43. Yeah but they haven't killed anybody in Iraq

[Rise Rebel Resist]

54. weak sauce

[redgreenandblue]

55. lol. non sequitur.

[cali]

56. My what short memories we have. The day before the same SCOTUS

did this:

http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2013/06/on-voting-rights-a-decision-as-lamentable-as-plessy-or-dred-scott/276455/