Zimmerman is guilty of involuntary manslaughter, at most

[Uzair]

At the very least, he is completely innocent. At the very most, he's guilty of manslaughter. I'm sorry, but the prosecution is out of it's mind charging him with murder.

The facts just don't point to anything else, and everyone who thinks otherwise is living in a fantasy world. I know a lot of people here want to pretend that George Zimmerman is some kind of psycho who was hell bent on killing someone that night, but that's your problem, not the universe's.

He racially profiled someone based on past experience in the neighborhood and his own prejudice. He had a gun because he's a paranoid gun freak like most Americans. A conflict happened, he got scared, and he shot an innocent kid. He wasn't out looking to kill someone for shits and giggles.

This shit happens all the time because of the gun culture: people getting shot and killed over stupidity, paranoia, and easy access to guns. If you actually want to address this issue, you don't crucify George Zimmerman. You do something about the insanity that is the American gun culture, because THAT'S what this is about. Everything else is noise.

[premium]

1. Oh boy, this ought to be good,

I think I'll just sit back and grab some popcorn and watch the flamefest.

[CatWoman]

2. care to share?

[LittleBlue]

5. Me three

[premium]

6. I'll buy you a beer.

[CatWoman]

31. ummmmmmmmmm

beer...............

[Aerows]

76. "The cause of and the solution to

all of life's problems." Homer Simpson

[CatWoman]

98. !!!!!!

[REP]

67. Yup.

[all american girl]

105. MOSS!!!!!!

Have you try turning the computer on and off?

[Aerows]

73. Can you pass the butter, please

and scooch over on the couch

[premium]

82. No problemo,

Always enjoy a good train wreck with friends.

[Aerows]

83. *grin*

Me, too

[EOTE]

3. I know there are a lot of racist crazies out there who will excuse any killing of minorities...

but that's your problems, not the universe's .

See how easy it is to make mind-numbingly stupid statements with no evidence whatsoever to back them up? At least there's anecdotal evidence to back mine up.

You seem to think that paranoid gun nuts going out and killing people for no reason isn't murder. A statement like that seems to be the result of stupidity and paranoia.

[Uzair]

30. Must be nice in la la land

Ok. So he's a racist nut who wanted to go out killing some Negros, is that your theory? Do people who want to murder usually call the cops first, and then go kill someone?

Come on.

[EOTE]

32. If they want plausible deniability, they do.

Regardless, the issue is that Zimmerman CAN'T be trusted in society. That's what prison is for. Crazy fucks of his ilk are bound to do this shit again. Take vengeance out of the equation, Zimmerman needs to be separated from society. That's what these gun nuts are screaming upset about.

[hrmjustin]

55. The Cops told him to leave him alone and he didn't.

[Dub-V-You]

66. Actually it was a 911 Dispatcher

and all they said was "we don't need you to do that" in response to his saying he was following Trayvon.

[hrmjustin]

68. He did not need to do it and he did. He was told to not follow and he did.

The kid had skittles and a drink and Zimmerman had a gun. Zimmerman killed him and should pay.

[Dub-V-You]

70. The timelines I've seen show that Zimmerman lost sight of Trayvon while on the phone with 911

and said he was returning to his vehicle. I assume that means he did stop following Trayvon.

The scuffle began 2-3 minutes after that.

Did Zimmerman know Trayvon was not armed?

[hrmjustin]

72. There was no reason to follow Trayvon. He was not doing anything.

[Dub-V-You]

79. If I had a number of break ins in my neighborhood and was in the same situation

I might not have gotten out of the car but I would have definitely tried to keep an eye on someone who looked suspicious.

I might not have found Trayvon's behavior suspicious but I wasn't there

[hrmjustin]

81. Why because he is black?

[Dub-V-You]

87. I don't find black people particularly suspicious. It would be a matter of circumstances

and the behavior of the individual.

If something doesn't look right, it would make me suspicious and skin color wouldn't be a factor.

[hrmjustin]

91. What what did this kid who was armed with Skittles and soft drink do that he got murdered?

He was walking while black, that is all. He did nothing but walk home.

[Dub-V-You]

99. He was walking through back yards, or behind houses in a neighborhood that

had recently suffered a bunch of breakins. I can't speak for Zimmerman's state of mind but, if it was out of the ordinary for people to be doing that at night, in the rain, I might have taken an interest too. Had the kid been white or hispanic would this even be an issue?
Had Zimmerman been black would there be a discussion about this case?

I'm not saying Zimmerman is or isn't guilty, just that in a similar situation there are a lot of people who may have taken an interest in the behavior that was exhibited. They, most likely, wouldn't have gotten out of the car but who really knows how one will react until they are in the situation?

[hrmjustin]

101. How do you know he was going through backyards? Zimmerman says so. He has no

credibility at all. He murdered the kid so anything he says is sell serving.

And why did he have to murder the kid in the end?

[DesertFlower]

115. according to the testimony he took a short cut

because of the rain.

[fascisthunter]

126. still no right to shoot and kill somebody

[DesertFlower]

158. zimmerman didn't take the shortcut. trayvon did.

according to the phone conversation he wanted to be near the mailboxes. apparently there must have been some shelter there from the rain.

[fascisthunter]

180. still no right to.... murder someone

sick

[uppityperson]

167. He was walking down the street when Zimmy started following him. Then he cut into the back yards

when he got worried about being followed. I am sure you read or heard Zimmy says "he's walking, looking around, think he's on drugs or something", when Trayvon was simply walking back to the house his dad was at?

[Travis_0004]

97. There is one thing I don't understand

Martin was about 15 units away from his fathers house. It was a distance that could be covered in less than 30 seconds. If Trayvon was scared for his life, I would think he would have been able to run back to the house. I don't see how in 2-3 minutes Trayvon could not have made it home, unless he got lost or something.

[displacedtexan]

125. Would you lead a strange guy to a 12 year old home alone?

I wouldn't.

[JimDandy]

138. You don't lead a creepy pervert

straight to your home...you run and hide. That is what Trayvon did.

[Boudica the Lyoness]

182. No, he didn't run and hide

If he had run away, he would either had been shot in the back at a great distance or he would have got away. The facts are he got shot in the chest at close range.

[JimDandy]

184. After leaving the mailbox area

and spotting Zimmerman in his car watching him, Rachel Jeantel said he told her he had ran around the back during the 20 seconds their lines were disconnected. Upon calling him back, she was under the impression that he was hiding as he was then talking in a quiet low voice. She urged him to run again, but he said he was near his father's house and wasn't going to run anymore.

Rachel then heard him say "Why are you following me?" She heard a male voice reply "What are you doing around here?" Then she heard the sound of wet grass and Trayvon saying "Get off. Get off me." and then the line went dead.

So the running and hiding, to which I referred, occurred prior to their face-to-face encounter.

[lumpy]

100. Obviously he didn't lose sight of Trayvon and followed him until he shot him.

n

[AngryOldDem]

171. And I think you listen to the dispatcher.

That is a reasonable course of action, no?

Unless, that is, you're George Zimmerman, and think you know more than the pros.

[Bjorn Against]

117. Negros? You are a George Zimmerman supporter and you use the term "negros"?

You are clearly a racist who is justifying the murder of an unarmed black person. Go ahead and alert on my post if you don't like it but I hope the jury will look at your posts because your words make it clear that what I am saying is the truth.

You were the person who started the racism accusations on this site against NSA opponents recently, but you have made it clear that you are the real racist.

[Uzair]

132. I'm a facts supporter

And I used "Negros" as a way to characterize the poster I was replying to, describing how George Zimmerman might put it. You need to read a few more books.

I couldn't care less about George Zimmerman. It's not about him. It's about the facts, and it's about the people here who can't accept them.

[Bjorn Against]

142. The problem for you is I have read books, I have read plenty on civil rights

You make threads falsely accusing people who question the NSA scandal of being racists, and yet you feel the need to "use 'Negros' as a way to characterize the poster I was replying to" as you so delicately put it. You make it very obvious that you are the real racist.

[Uzair]

145. WOW

Read a book. Please. I DIDN'T USE THE WORD NEGROS. Do you not get that?

[Bjorn Against]

148. Oh yes you did use that word

Here are your own words quoted back to you...

"Ok. So he's a racist nut who wanted to go out killing some Negros, is that your theory?"

Those are your words, so instead of telling me to read a book I will tell you to read your own damn post.

[Uzair]

150. READ. A. BOOK.

Oh my God. I can't believe what I'm reading right now.

I was ASCRIBING the word "Negro" TO THE POSTER THAT I WAS REPLYING TO. It's a common literary device. For Christ's sake. I'm starting to understand why nobody has any logic around here. Does anybody have any semblance of an education whatsoever anymore?

[Bjorn Against]

154. Yes, you were ascribing it in a racist manor

Don't think that you get a free pass to ascribe racist terms to others and then act as if it is totally innocent.

[Uzair]

175. I can't talk to you

You have no basic understanding of writing in a point of view style. All I can say is educate yourself and goodbye.

[Arkana]

176. Yes, he's a racist.

He called the police on Trayvon Martin.

He was told NOT TO FOLLOW Trayvon, and did it anyway.

He was armed. Trayvon was not.

He SHOT Trayvon Martin in cold blood.

[NightWatcher]

4. Forget popcorn, time for a Noob-b-cue

This ones about to be scorched.

[NYC_SKP]

20. I can't believe this post doesn't have more recs!

[premium]

29. I just rec'd it

just so he could say that he got a rec, then I hit undo.

[Aerows]

92. I rec'd it for you again

Then hit undo.

[premium]

94. Well played,

OP got a brief sense of excitement, and then, it was gone.
We are so cruel.

[premium]

23. +1000.

Mmmmmmm, pizza, yummy.

[Kurovski]

43. Whenever I carve a "U" in stone it always looks like a "V".

Is that common?

[pintobean]

54. No, it's not just you.

Amazing that we agree.

[Aerows]

86. I think we'll be seeing wings

roasted over this one.

[Cirque du So-What]

109. This one is hardly alone

as I see another n00b in this thread who appears to have signed up for no other reason than to lend support to Zimmerman. Wonder how many will stick around once this trial is over...or even make it that long?

[Ptah]

7. Second degree murder is a murder that is not premeditated or planned in advance.

[Voice for Peace]

88. I'm not sure how they clinch this one.. manslaughter would be easier to prove

what exactly is his plea? self-defense?

Murder with a Depraved Mind (aka second degree murder charge
in this case)

Murder with a Depraved Mind occurs when a person is killed,
without any premeditated design, by an act imminently dangerous
to another and evincing a depraved mind showing no regard for human life.

The primary distinction between Premeditated First Degree Murder and
Second Degree Murder with a Depraved Mind is that First Degree Murder
requires a specific and premeditated intent to kill.

[WinkyDink]

8. There is no scenario in which Z is "completely innocent," as TM is DEAD. And "premeditation" doesn't

have to be a long-planned event.

[ksoze]

13. Except in Florida - "Stand Your Ground"

I don't agree with it, but it is the law.

[EOTE]

34. Trayvon Martin was the one standing his ground.

Not psycho Zimmerman who wouldn't stop until he got the fight he wanted.

[aquart]

102. Exactly. The only one entitled to claim stand your ground was Trayvon.

Zimmerman GOT OUT OF HIS CAR AND STALKED HIS PREY ON FOOT WITH A LOADED GUN.

If a hunter shoots a duck, it is a premeditated act.

[DesertFlower]

116. i agree. nt

[AngryOldDem]

170. Riddle me this:

How can you be the aggressor and then turn around and claim self-defense, aka "stand your ground"?

To me, that is the axis on which this entire case turns. Zimmerman was told to back off. He didn't. Furthermore, the guy has a documented history of seeing trouble where there is none. I think Trayvon had every right to be in fear of his safety and to stand HIS ground that night.

Zimmerman's god complex and racism were a deadly combination.

[still_one]

9. Really. Please educate me what Martin was doing wrong, and why Zimmerman should confront him in the

first place?

and even when he called the police they told him to NOT confront him

Zimmerman is not a law enforcement person.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

10. Involuntary manslaughter would have been if his gun accidentally went off.

He's not claiming that. He's claiming he shot Trayvon in purpose, albeit in supposed self-defense.

So your argument fails from the get go. We'd be talking voluntary manslaughter in this case.

Also, note that he is only charged with 2nd Degree Murder, not 1st Degree Murder. 2nd Degree Murder (unlike 1st Degree Murder) does not require proof that someone had the intention to murder, only that they acted in callous disregard to human life.

And the voluntary manslaughter charge is a lesser included offense to the 2nd Degree Murder charge, meaning if the jury acquits him of 2nd Degree murder, they could still convict him of voluntary manslaughter.

[Control-Z]

69. I'd been wondering why

they didn't charge him with 1st degree murder. This is the best explanation I've heard and it makes such perfect sense.

"2nd Degree Murder (unlike 1st Degree Murder) does not require proof that someone had the intention to murder, only that they acted in callous disregard to human life. "

Even though I believe Zimmerman was out hunting people that night (and on many prior nights), the chance of a 1st degree murder conviction in Florida would not appear likely.

Good post. Thanks!

[Aerows]

89. Yes, he's 2nd degree

for certain, in my opinion.

[davidpdx]

162. I agree, 1st degree murder would have been extremely difficult to prove

It doesn't sound to me like manslaughter is a possible outcome. It would be he's either guilty of the 2nd degree murder or he's acquitted.

The jury is going to deadlock unfortunately. There is no way they will get a unanimous decision either way.

[Voice for Peace]

90. thank you.. have wondered about this

And the voluntary manslaughter charge is a lesser included offense to the 2nd Degree Murder charge, meaning if the jury acquits him of 2nd Degree murder, they could still convict him of voluntary manslaughter.

[question everything]

11. There is still the point that the police at the 911 call

(I think) specifically told Zimmerman not to follow Martin, to let the professionals intervene.

[tkmorris]

12. Anyone who disagrees with you is "living in a fantasy world"

Since you have already decided this and in fact included the statement in your opening salvo there is little point in discussing anything with you. If you can't have anymore respect for other people's opinions than that you are unlikely to engage in anything but the most acrimonious of exchanges.

If you are as certain as you appear to be in your opinions (not just on this topic, there's been a pattern of such behavior) you may as well enunciate them into a mirror and pat yourself on the back when done.

[Uzair]

134. Opinions versus facts

Do you think George Zimmerman was intentionally out to kill a black person that night? After calling the cops? Or could you possibly use some logic and actually make a reasoned assessment of the case?

[WovenGems]

157. Goof

Zim was hunting when he called the cops that is why ignored them when they said stand down. He was focused on the prey. That makes it second degree murder. Period.

[snooper2]

14. Zimmerman was/is a hero in his own mind

He was even on the fucking Parking Committee...


Park your car in front of a hydrant Zimmy Boy was there-

In general I agree with your assessment- I know damn well if he was following me around I would have stopped and asked what his fucking problem was.

Also, in evidence they showed the waist holster for his gun. I think the punk bitch started getting his ass kicked and pulled his weapon.

[onenote]

16. Since you have a time machine that has allowed you to hear all the evidence and testimony

can you let me know who is going to win this afternoon's Nats/Diamondback's game?

Seriously, where did you get your time machine?

[NYC_SKP]

17. This is a hate crime. Any white kid walking around Zimmerman's complex would still be alive.

Blame who you want, but it's not the gun's fault.

I think this could easily be a second degree case in Florida:

The unlawful killing of a human being, when perpetrated by any act imminently dangerous to another and evincing a depraved mind regardless of human life, although without any premeditated design to effect the death of any particular individual, is murder in the second degree and constitutes a felony of the first degree, punishable by imprisonment for a term of years not exceeding life or as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=0700-0799/0782/0782.html

[npk]

53. Nah some black guy would have shot that poor white kid walking the neighborhood...

Dontcha know this kind of thing happens all the time.

[NM_Birder]

63. I agree and disagree with aspects of your post.

hate crime, ? No, I don't agree. There is no evidence yet presented that supports this as a hate crime, this is presented in a court of law not the court of public outrage.

Don't blame the gun ? Yes I agree. A gun can no more kill a person than a glass of scotch can wreck you car. However, put a human being in the mix that lacks the skills to properly respect and adhere to a set of unbreakable rules of use, either one can and will be deadly.

In this case I don't see how Zimmerman is not at fault for causing the unjustifiable death of Martin. But I don't think racism is the reason, Zimmerman and his flawed understanding of a firearms purpose and use is the reason Martin is dead, and for that he deserves the full penalty of law. A firearm is a bottle of liquid courage x100 to an irresponsible urban crusader like Zimmerman, I don't think color mattered.

ignorant, self deluded "teach you a lesson tough guys" come in all ages, all sizes, all sexes and all colors, just as their targets do. I believe, based on the evidence reported and being presented, Zimmerman shot and killed Martin unjustifiably, even if Martin had been armed he was still killed unjustifiably.

[stranger81]

133. If color was irrelevant to Zimmerman,

then why is it that, in every single one of his calls to the Sanford PD reporting suspicious persons in the neighborhood, every single person he found suspicious just happened to be a young black male?

His prior calls make it pretty clear that Zimmerman thought it was his job to make sure his little gated community was an African-American-free zone, and not much else.

[NM_Birder]

139. Don't know...

I haven't listened to every single previous call, can't say.

But..that community has lots of different people of different races, Zimmerman was not universally hated.

And for him to be the racist he is painted to be, ...rather than the ignorant, over zealous tough guy coward is actually IS, the prosecution better start bringing out people experiencing his racism. Nothing is a slam dunk in the courtroom, juries can be fickle and weird things happen in trials.

LOTS of drops are going to fill this bucket, not a guaranteed conviction. It's early, but so far neither side is shinning to bright out of the box.

[Uzair]

135. Yeah. Sure. Never the gun's fault.

It's ALL about the gun. Trayvon would be alive today if not for the gun. Enough bullshit. This entire case is about guns. This case and the THOUSANDS of other cases just like it. Deal with it. America has a gun problem.

[NM_Birder]

141. Just yesterday a gun cut me off in traffic !

[Tx4obama]

18. Zimmerman stalked Martin with a gun and then shot him dead. Zimmerman is guilty. n/t

[tularetom]

19. Au contraire mon ami

He initiated the act by stalking Martin. He was looking for some kind of confrontation and he got it. When he wasn't prepared for what happened he panicked and pulled the gun he thought he could handle.

Zimmerman was the proximate cause of Martin's death. He is guilty of a lot more than involuntary manslaughter. Whether or not he gets convicted of it is another matter, but I wouldn't want to be him, even if he walks. If he was paranoid before, this is gonna push his flabby little ass right over the edge.

[HappyMe]

21. He pointed the gun at the kid and shot him.

That's murder.

[bigwillq]

24. Yup

[Pelican]

165. I think some other things happened before that...

Hence all the hullaballoo on the television...

[stlsaxman]

177. "all the hullaballoo" is what television does. high viewership means more money.

[bravenak]

22. Yeah I don't think so.

I'm positive it will be murder 2. He profiled and presumed things he had no reason to presume.
He followed an innocent young man, got out of the car and engaged in a foot pursuit. The there was an altercation and a young man ended up dead. A young man that was scared and trying to escape him. If someone runs from you and you chase them down, shoot them, and they end up dead, your a murderer. whether that was your evening plan or not. He should have gone to walmart or target or wherever he was going. He made bad choices that were not involuntary.

[Comrade Grumpy]

25. American gun culture didn't shoot that kid, Zimmerman did.

So, yes, it is about Zimmerman.

But yes, the sea of guns is a big problem.

And yes, manslaughter is probably the correct charge and verdict.

[burnodo]

38. really?

Without Zimmerman's racism and authoritarian fantasies, Martin would not be dead. It is murder, not manslaughter.

[Comrade Grumpy]

46. Yeah, I don't think this was a premeditated killing.

I think there was a confrontation between the two that wouldn't have happened absent Zimmerman's "racism and authoritarian fantasies," but not that he went out there intending to kill someone.

I also don't know if he is going to get convicted. He can and will make a self-defense argument, although I hope the jury doesn't buy it.

[burnodo]

52. once he decided to pursue Martin with a gun, it became premeditated

it was not his job or his duty to pursue or confront Martin. Yeah, maybe the law will be spongy on this point, but the only reason Martin is dead is because of Zimmerman. There' s got to be more than manslaughter there.

[ieoeja]

58. Murder 2 is not premeditated.

Murder 2: he intended to kill Martin when he pulled the trigger.
Manslaughter: his negligence killed Martin.

This seems more the former than the latter. What negligence would we even be talking about here?

[notadmblnd]

60. I think it was premeditated

I think he planned for a long time to kill someone the first opportunity he got. Trayvon was that opportunity. Why else would he need to carry a gun if not to kill with it?

[geckosfeet]

119. How long is long enough for premeditation?

5 seconds? 5 minutes? Or does there have to be some clear trail of evidence over a period of time?

It's going to be hard to prove premeditation unless he left some record somewhere. Maybe his obvious vigilantism will be enough.

[notadmblnd]

120. That's a good question and I don't have an answer

Also, there's a difference between between what I personally think and what he's been charged with. So in this case, we're probably not going to get an answer to your question.

[arely staircase]

26. he is at least guilty of negligent homicide but more likely 2nd degree murder

just getting out of his car to confront someone for no reason then the someone ends up dead is probably a slam dunk negligent homicide. But if the jury believes that is Martin screaming on the tape, and I bet they do, then that is enough time to for premeditation to form in his mind.

he is probably going down hard on this.

[jberryhill]

27. "everyone who thinks otherwise is living in a fantasy world"

Are words to that effect now a requirement of posting on DU?

It is so tiresome that just about every post here is punctuated by a pre-emptive categorical attack on "anyone who doesn't agree with me."

It's so childish.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

28. He's guilty of whatever the prosecution is able to prove beyond a reasonable doubt.

So I guess I'm just gonna wait and see what the jury does.

[premium]

37. ^^^This^^^. nt.

[Kurovski]

39. Yes. (nt)

[840high]

136. Nice sane response. I'll

wait, too.

[burnodo]

33. at the very least he is completely innocent?

what utter nonsense

Kid. Walking down street. Accosted by man with a gun. Shot by man with a gun. At the very least, he is guilty of manslaughter.

[last1standing]

35. You should probably look at the laws on taking a life before making that assertion.

Zimmerman could get involuntary manslaughter as a compromise, or even be exonerated if the jury believes his defense wholeheartedly as you appear to do. However, the facts as the prosecution tells them lead to a vastly different conclusion.

[librechik]

36. wow, I guess a bunch of people told you that

and you just HAD to come over to the liberal wimps and shake that dirty rag in our faces.
I really don't think you are going to change any minds, altho I'm sure lots here will agree with you.

Enjoy your stay!

[hrmjustin]

40. I see this OP went over really well.

[premium]

47. It's fun kicking back,

bag of popcorn in one hand , beer in the other, , and watch this train wreck of a thread.
I'll say one thing about OP, when he/she posts something here, it usually turns into a flamefest.

[hrmjustin]

51. I was looking at the General Discussion page and I saw how quickly the number of reply's came.

[cheyanne]

41. Why Zimmerman might go free?

Because he is accused of a very specific crime, murder 2, which the prosecution has to proof beyond a reasonable doubt.

We may not approve of Zimmerman's behavior but he deserves a fair trial.

[hobbit709]

42. What a crock of crap. When you deliberately go looking for trouble as he did

There's no involuntary to it.

UNREC!

[HappyMe]

45. So the OP drops this turd

and runs off?

[burnodo]

48. I think this proves the OP is a racist

nt

[Sgent]

44. Florida Law

I somewhat agree -- the jury must find that he "evinced a depraved mind regardless of human life", and I agree that it will be a hard row to hoe...

On the other hand, manslaughter seems to be a slam dunk where they only have to prove culpable negligence.

Its going to be hard for a jury to find that Zimmerman didn't care if Martin lived or died. It might be possible, but it is a definite stretch.


Murder 2

(2) The unlawful killing of a human being, when perpetrated by any act imminently dangerous to another and evincing a depraved mind regardless of human life, although without any premeditated design to effect the death of any particular individual, is murder in the second degree and constitutes a felony of the first degree, punishable by imprisonment for a term of years not exceeding life or as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.


Manslaughter

782.07 Manslaughter; aggravated manslaughter of an elderly person or disabled adult; aggravated manslaughter of a child; aggravated manslaughter of an officer, a firefighter, an emergency medical technician, or a paramedic.—
(1) The killing of a human being by the act, procurement, or culpable negligence of another, without lawful justification according to the provisions of chapter 776 and in cases in which such killing shall not be excusable homicide or murder, according to the provisions of this chapter, is manslaughter, a felony of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

[aquart]

96. He brought a loaded gun. Stalked him. Confronted him. Attacked him. Killed him.

Because he was walking wearing a hoodie? Because he was black (which would be a special circumstance? A civil rights violation?)?

HE BROUGHT A GUN.

[ieoeja]

49. Only if the shooting was an accident, or he didn't intend to kill him when he shot.

We can pretty much dismiss the "didn't intend to kill" argument given that he did not shoot Martin in the foot.

If Zimmerman says he killed him in self-defense, then the shooting would not be accidental. In which case it is not involuntary and not manslaughter.

Murder 1 requires pre-meditation. Murder 2 does not.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

56. Thank you.

Concisely stated.

You have to have your legal terms correct, people.

[kentuck]

50. 2nd degree murder.

Involuntary manslaughter if he had been driving his car recklessly and had an accident and killed the kid .

[Pisces]

57. Trayvon was guilty of walking while black. Zimmerman has to live with the fact that he killed a 17

yr old boy who was carrying skittles. If Trayvon threatened Zimmerman he was within his rights because an older man was stalking him in the dark.

He is guilty of 2nd degree murder. He had no business following the kid when he was told not to.
Gun culture is not on trial. That is a separate issue but good of you to try and muddy the water.

[darkangel218]

59. Are you.posting nonsense like this just to get a rise out of the people??

[Nye Bevan]

61. It could well have been second-degree murder, but I don't think the evidence is there

to prove that beyond a reasonable doubt. The "star witness" was a self-contradicting, self-confessed liar, who claims to know what "wet grass" sounds like. If this case was not so politically charged there would have been a plea-bargain for negligent homicide or manslaughter long ago.

[BklnDem75]

62. Yeah... you keep believing that

I have a feeling Zimmerman's looking on ebay right now.


http://www.ebay.com/itm/Inmate-Jail-Prisoner-Convict-Costume-Orange-Jumpsuit-XL-/200918510747

[Whiskeytide]

64. Both sides have a story or version of the events...

The people who side with Martin believe Zimmerman profiled Martin, stalked him, chased him down, confronted him, and then shot him.

The people who side with Zimmerman believe he acted as a neighborhood watch officer and appropriately questioned the presence and activity of a young man he didn't recognize in a neighborhood with a history of burglaries, called the police to report the man, tried to keep up with the man when he fled, was then confronted by the guy, and the guy then jumped him and began beating him so severely that he was forced to pull his gun as a last resort and shoot in self defense.

If you believe either of these versions - and both can be viewed as consistent with what we know - that shapes your perception of Zimmerman's guilt. It is that simple. But the truth - as it always seems to be - is probably somewhere in between the two extremes.

Personally, - fwiw - I believe Zimmerman was a wannabe cop acting out a tough guy fantasy, quite paranoid, and clearly an idiot. He created the situation that led to the confrontation. He had deluded himself into thinking he was some kind of bad ass, and was Hell bent on doing something about "these guys" who "always get away". I do tend to think that - rightly or wrongly - he genuinely believed Martin was up to no good. Up to that point, everything he did was intentional and according to his fantasy.

Then Martin started kicking his ass, and his tough guy fantasy fell apart. Again, I think he believed Martin was going to kill him or hurt him bad. Like it or not, that's when it gets murky as far as the law is concerned.

[tavernier]

156. That's pretty much how I broke it down as well.

Your explanation was much clearer.

I do agree in some measure with the OP that this was also a gun crime. We managed a condo association for fifteen years, and when we went home at night, the condo commandos would come out to "police the property". Fortunately our private community had a clause that no weapons were allowed on the common grounds. Otherwise I cringe to think how many shootings there could have been.

[eridani]

172. It's flat out not possible to beat the shit out of someone and bloody his nose without getting

--the victim's DNA all over your hands. There was no Zimmerman DNA on Martin. QED.

[MjolnirTime]

65. Take your troll ass back under the bridge.

[ljm2002]

71. "He wasn't out looking to kill someone"...

..."for shits and giggles".

I agree with you on that, at least I agree that we have no evidence that he started out with the intent to kill.

That's why the charge is second-degree murder rather than first-degree murder: no evidence of premeditation.

Manslaughter is more of an accidental killing kind of thing, with the degrees dependent on how blatantly the offender disregarded the danger of what they were doing.

I think second-degree murder is a reasonable charge in this case, as there is little evidence IMO that Zimmerman's life was in danger OR that he could have reasonably thought it was.

Whatever you think of our gun culture, when it comes down to it we try cases one by one. So it is irrelevant to this case. What is relevant is the facts of the case, and the motivations as far as they can be discerned.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

74. prejudice is not just noise. nt

[reflection]

75. If you're correct,

isn't the only thing to do "about the insanity that is the American gun culture" convicting and jailing people like George Zimmerman?

For what it's worth, I think he's guilty as sin, but I worry that they overcharged him as well. I would hate for that asshole to walk because they reached too far. The good news is that I'm not a lawyer so my opinion means nothing.

[markiv]

77. I dont believe in trial in the media, or the internet

it convicts the innocent (unlikely the case here), and it gives an appeal to the guilty

the verdict should come from the jury, period

[magical thyme]

78. Zimmerman voluntarily pointed his gun at an unarmed teen and shot him in the chest.

He stalked him, likely instigated and definitely got into a fight with him, and when he was losing the fight, he killed him. On purpose. Nothing about that was involuntary.

As a neighborhood watch, he was instructed not to investigate not to follow. He chose to ignore those instructions and follow. Chase according to witnesses.

The 911 dispatcher asked him not to follow. He chose to ignore that advice and follow.

He told the dispatcher he'd meet the police at a specified point, and then ignored what he told the dispatcher, and chose to follow.

Now go back to your fantasy land where armed men who stalk, fight with and shoot unarmed teenagers in the chest at point blank range are guilty of "involuntary manslaughter" at most.

The rest of us, we'll wait for all the evidence and jury's decision.

[malaise]

80. Hmmmmmmmmmm

Dream on!

[we can do it]

84. Racist pig stalks and kills young black kid with skittles and ice tea, not guilty?

But its not his fault, yeah right.

[Voice for Peace]

85. I don't consider him innocent. I do consider him reckless and really stupid.

My opinion is that second degree murder in this case
is a stretch, I think it is more likely manslaughter.

But someone said that even though he's charged
with second-degree, if the prosecution can't prove
their case the jury can can still find him guilty of
manslaughter..? (I don't know if this is true,
would like to know)

[HockeyMom]

93. Yes

They can find the lesser charge of Manslaughter. Overcharge and then plea down to the lesser charge, rather than let him off the hook completely.

[Voice for Peace]

95. thanks. "depraved mind" is a difficult thing to prove I would imagine

[Logical]

103. LOL, Ok! n-t

[PDJane]

104. There was nothing involuntary about the fact that he chased and shot the teen.

[MidwestTransplant]

106. If I start a "Rick Perry was right" thread, I wonder if I will get

more or fewer popcorn eaters than this thread has!

[Aerows]

108. Depends on what you think he was right about

it could be fewer, it could be greater, or you could just get suggestions that you get a pizza (tombstone).

[geckosfeet]

107. No sir. Can't agree with anything you said. With the possible exception

that Zimmerman racially profiled someone.

A lot of people want to blame culture, laws, the 2A, social more's, and a host of peripheral issues.

The man shot someone. He consciously drew a firearm, aimed it and pulled the trigger. Blaming anyone but the shooter is denial. American gun laws and culture are not on trial. Zimmerman is.

[rdharma]

110. "American gun laws and culture are not on trial." But they should be!

[geckosfeet]

118. Possibly. But that is not what this case is about.

[nomorenomore08]

143. On a secondary level, yes. But the actual perpetrator of this crime is still first and foremost

the one at fault.

[noiretextatique]

111. another low post count pro-zimmerman troll...yawn

considering you types are soooo sure zimmerman is innocent, why don't you go to a site where people agree with you? you can all bask in his innocence, with faux concern about the gun culture, etc, ad nauseum, while completely ignoring the mounting evidence of his guilt.

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

112. 2nd degree minimum, for accosting a child with hostile intent (n/t)

[notadmblnd]

113. Punishing him by sending him to prison for his reckless disregard for human life

Isn't exactly a crucifixion. And I do think he was looking to kill someone for shits and giggles. I think it is something he fantasized about often. Why else does one need to take a gun like that around with them if not to shoot someone with it? Was he carrying it to show it to his friends at the grocery store? Was he gonna shoot squirrels with it? No, I think he carried it to use if he ever had the opportunity- and that night, he seized upon his opportunity. It doesn't matter for what reason. George Zimmermann instigated it and made a conscious choice to pursue someone he didn't like the looks of- and that person was doing nothing more than walking down a street.

Hopefully the next opportunity that GZ has is the opportunity to seize upon will be to experience how it feels to be thought of as less than human by others and to reflect on that while doing a nice stretch in prison somewhere.

[noiretextatique]

114. hmmm...one post, many replies, but the poster hasn't responded to any of them

as i suspected.

[rdharma]

122. Yes. I think you are correct.

With a few of his/her "socks" keeping up the pro-Zimmerman garbage.

[nomorenomore08]

144. Hit-and-run posts should be severely punished, damn it!

[noiretextatique]

179. it just confirms

what we already knew zimmerman apologists are as cowardly as zimmerman

[cali]

121. he followe Trayvon. he profiled him.

he murdered him in cold blood.

What are you doing on DU? You're not a liberal.

[Uzair]

137. Oh for Christ's sake

Really? You think he murdered him in cold blood? AFTER he called the cops? Yeah, that's the ticket.

I think I'm going to call the cops to tell them I'm seeing someone I think is suspicious, then ignore them when they tell me not to follow him, and then go kill him.

Are you aware of how little sense that makes? What is with you people? Use your heads, for God's sake.

[cali]

140. yes, I think he did. what is it with the likes of YOU?

he followed him and killed him because he was a black teenager.

YOU don't belong here. A pizza party would be great!

[Uzair]

146. No

He followed him and killed him because some kind of confrontation happened, and he was probably acting like a jackass and was scared. Which is what all the actual evidence points to, as opposed to the fantasy you've conjured up in your head about the whole thing.

[cali]

147. Did he have to follow him? No, of course not

his actions are not those of a man who kills accidentally.

[Uzair]

151. His actions are of an idiot with a gun and a Hero complex

Not some psychopath going out looking to kill someone for fun. Let's stop being silly about this, please.

[bravenak]

160. I don't think it matters that he wasn't playing 'surviving the game'.

He pursued and shot an unarmed kid. Nothing silly about wanting justice for the family and attempting to keep a dangerous killer off the streets. I love how wrong you are. Why are you giving him the benefit of the doubt? Should he have given trayvon the same mercy he wants for himself? He's is not a victim, he's an admitted killer.

[pintobean]

159. "you people"

oops... that's a tell

[Kingofalldems]

123. This Zimmerman thing bringing them all out

[demmiblue]

124. .

[TransitJohn]

127. Nope.

Murder in the 2nd, maybe 1st. He took out a gun and pursued a man the police told him not to pursue, shot and killed him. Murder.

[applegrove]

128. Oh really? What if Trayvon was the one yelling "help me, help me" while Zimmerman

held him at gun point. I would yell help me if someone pointed a gun at me. I would be stopped enough to yell help me. Cause you freeze enough to yell when someone points a gun at you. You don't yell if you are in the middle of fighting. You grunt. So if Trayvon was the one yelling "help me" don't you think that is murder? Zimmerman had him at gunpoint. They were frozen. Zimmerman shot.

[Beacool]

129. I heard something similar over the radio.

They were saying that the problem that the prosecution has is that they overcharged him. Therefore, they now have a much harder job because the burden of proof needed to convict him is higher. BTW, Trayvon's friend was a terrible witness for the prosecution.

[orpupilofnature57]

130. Since your in charge of the universe, you do somthing about the....

" Insanity of the gun culture " ???????

[Apophis]

131. You say

"He racially profiled someone based on past experience in the neighborhood and his own prejudice."

And then say: At the very least, he is completely innocent. At the very most, he's guilty of manslaughter. I'm sorry, but the prosecution is out of it's mind charging him with murder.

You're saying two different things there. The first statement makes him sound like he committed first degree murder. The second statement says he's only guilty of manslaughter at most. Which is it?

[apples and oranges]

149. He followed the boy with a locked and loaded gun in his pocket,

despite being told not to. He confronted Martin and was prepared to use the gun. End of story.

[Lint Head]

152. I'm unapologetically saying Zimmerman is a murderer. Whether he is convicted is another matter.

Skittles, Arizona Juice, Hoodie against a gun? Lets do Rock Paper Scissors.

[Lex]

153. YOUR opinion.

And you know what they say about opinions.

[samsingh]

155. zimmerman is in my opinion guilty of murder

and he should be punished accordingly

[AnotherMcIntosh]

161. "guilty of involuntary manslaughter, at most"? Why not disturbing the peace?

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

163. It's been a long time since I've been called a Negro. Who knew?

[H2O Man]

164. legalize Lonnie Anderson's hair.

[spanone]

166. what an unmitigated crock of shit

[OwnedByCats]

168. I'm on the fence on this one

I did not know Trayvon. I do not know Zimmerman. I wasn't present when this occurred. I've read a lot about the case, but you know what my biggest problem is? I don't trust the media, not one tiny little bit. And it's not just the negatives about Zimmerman, but some of the media have reported bad things about Trayvon as well. A lot of it is probably BS too. So seeing as how I wasn't there and I'm cynical as hell when it comes to the media, I'm waiting for what comes out in the trial. Everybody should do the same instead of trusting everything they read or assuming things about both Zimmerman and Trayvon.

I just pray that the jury gets it right.

[AngryOldDem]

169. This was a situation that Zimmerman created.

The guy seemed to be itching for a fight to prove that he was the big, bad-ass Protector of the Condos.

We all know why he perceived Trayvon a as a "threat." Which is bullshit on its face. I have not heard one lick of evidence that at any point Zimmerman was in immediate threat of danger from Trayvon. In fact, I argue that it was the other way around.

Zimmerman was looking for trouble that night and found it. Not involuntary manslaughter, IMHO, "shits and giggles" or not.

[Captain Stern]

173. I think you're probably right.

I think too much emphasis is being placed on what happened before the physical altercation.

If the jury believes that Zimmerman was the one that started the actual physical altercation, I think they'll find him guilty of voluntary manslaughter.

If the jury believes Martin started the actual physical confrontation, they will find Zimmerman not guilty.

I think Zimmerman's actions before the physical confrontation will only come in to play if the Jury thinks that Zimmerman threw the first punch, or tried to physically detain Martin in some manner.

[freshwest]

181. C'mon, Uzair '...a paranoid gun freak like most Americans'? That won't wash. Most people don't stalk

and most people are not paranoid, media fantasies to the contrary.

Watching paranoid RWNJs on TV or listening to them on radio or other venues, with Glen Beck and Alex Jones being the top of the list, is still not 'most people' although those who can get talked into being afraid of every thing that moves. You can say those names to most people and they will just go 'Doh?'

Other than some who are into political discussion, Ron Paulies, Libertarians and RWNJ GOPs... Wait, same animal.

Most people have not got a level of media induced paranoia to anywhere near what we might say that Z had, if he did.

There are so many things that prove he was not in paranoid, or at least not a very wise paranoid, that night. The man's record is that of a bully. His targets in the past were women, gnerally and not grown men. He was accustomed to having his way and had been getting away with it no matter what.

Paranoid people don't start confrontations. They don't get out of the safety of their vehicles. They don't follow people they are afraid of. Nope, they really don't.

It's not logical, which is a whole 'nother game than being rational.

Z went after TM since he thought he was entitled to do so. Feeling entitled is not paranoid, it's a sign of feeling powerful over another human being, or animal, or whatever. They simply do not match.

As much as I agree with some of your posts, this reeks of giving a pass to someone who doesn't deserve one. Although I don't care what they end up convicting him of.

Murder, manslaughter, negligent homocide, stalking, menacing or even terminal stupidity. I want him removed from society so that if it does happen again, it won't be from this character.

[pintobean]

183. Uzair has been PPRed