Birders fake birds death to discredit wind power

[WestStar]

An enthusiast who travelled to the Western Isles to view a rare bird has told of his "dismay" after watching it fly into a wind turbine and die.

The white-throated needletail, which breeds in Asia and winters in Australasia, was spotted on Harris.

About 30 birdwatchers travelled to the island to see the unusual visitor, which has only been recorded five times in the UK since 1950.

However, they then saw it die after colliding with the wind turbine.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-23082846

They have no actual evidence of the windmill actually striking the bird, just conjecture.

I'm suspicious.

[nadinbrzezinski]

1. ACTUAL HEADLINE: Birdwatchers see rare white-throated needletail fly into turbine on Harris

Oy

[uppityperson]

8. ACTUAL HEADLINE from youtube link this goes to "Demise of the needletail"

I am sure some birds do hit turbines, but to claim that is the "actual headline" from the video is not true.

[muriel_volestrangler]

12. Nadin gave the BBC headline

She did not claim that it was the title of the YouTube video, let alone 'the "actual headline" of the video'.

[Buzz Clik]

23. Let's make this really, really clear: that bird is not an endangered or threatened species.

http://bird-species.findthedata.org/l/3448/White-throated-Needletail

What a total crock of manipulative bullshit.

Sorry, but I hate this.

[nadinbrzezinski]

24. Let's make this very clear.

Birds are killed by windmills.

That is why in the US take permits are issued in the permitting process, including take permits for bold eagles.

That is reality.

You can go research this, since I know you don't believe this. The records are available, depending who is the permitting agency, in the documentation filed.

[Buzz Clik]

25. I honestly have no idea what you are trying to say.

[nadinbrzezinski]

26. Once again

In the US, when companies go through the permitting process, under CQUA, they are allowed to kill a certain number of birds a year. These are called take permits. They have been issued for endangered species, such as bold eagles, less endangered, such as golden eagles.

So the reality is...windmills kill birds...it's recognized.

The legal debate, i have sat in a few of these court proceedings, is what number, if at all, is acceptable?

[Buzz Clik]

28. Fine. Power lines kill birds. Birds have flown into my windows and parked car and killed themselves.

They are not very bright, and our presence has hastened the demise of millions upon millions of them. It's tragic, I agree.

However, that has absolutely nothing to do with my comment.

The white-throated needle tail was portrayed as "rare", and that is bullshit.

[nadinbrzezinski]

48. Birds are bright

You know who is not bright? The top tier species creating this mess.

Birds crash on windows due to how vision in them evolved over millions of years. For some silly reason it will take long for eyes to adapt.

But birds are bright...emotive creatures who are pretty self aware.

You should read the research done on Alex and his pals.

[Buzz Clik]

68. Awesome. Birds are friggin' geniuses. I don't give a damn.

I do get pissed off with so-called naturalists or environmentalists lie and manipulate, which is EXACTLY the case here.

Don't try to pretend that this is about the semantics surrounding birds; this is about trying to cast a stain in wind power and nothing else.

[nadinbrzezinski]

69. Wind power has issues whether you like it or not

No technology is problem free or issue free. Intelligent people get that.

Intelligent people are also capable of understanding that a lot of this is a cost benefit analysis, and not just to favor humans. After all if birds went poof (as well as other species) the top tier species will likely go away too.

[Buzz Clik]

71. Agreed. But I don't like being lied to or manipulated in an effort to prove that point.

And windmills are not going to make birds go "poof".

[nadinbrzezinski]

76. Alas the story stated a fact

The bird is rare were it was sighted.

And it was killed by a blade.

Your problem is you cannot believe wind mills kill birds. They do, they do, why the fracking take permits are issued. That is a fact jack, whether you like it or not.

And blade less systems (under development) will go a long way to solve that, and are more efficient to boot.

[Buzz Clik]

80. "The bird is rare were it was sighted." Not what it said.

You are a huge opponent of wind power, and here you have demonstrated a willingness to support manipulative stories that further your cause.



You get the last word.

[nadinbrzezinski]

91. Not opponent of wind power

I am waiting with baited breath for the systems that will address some of the problems these centralized utility, industrial systems do have.

Free clue Buzz, my county just passed a new ordinance, updating the damn patchwork. One of the things they included in the new mandate is TRAINING AND EQUIPPING OF FIRE PERSONNEL to respond to these specialized fires.

You know what was damn fracking hilarious? The industry claimed the county was anti wind for requiring them to deal with the increased fire risk posed by the towers, a REAL problem you will next tell me does not happen.

The County is also allowing INDIVIDUAL towers to go up with an administrative permit, which was opposed by the industry. It used to need a bunch of red tape.

Yup, the industry also said that was anti wind.

[maddezmom]

93. There seems to be a lot of anti-wind and green tech going around

Right-wing memo urges creation of bogus grassroots effort to undermine support for wind energy


http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/05/09/1090197/-Right-wing-memo-urges-creation-of-bogus-grassroots-effort-to-undermine-support-for-wind-energy

And a bunch from Think Progress


http://thinkprogress.org/tag/heartland-institute/?mobile=wt

[Buzz Clik]

101. In some ways, I find being manipulated by a focused campaign more forgivable than willful ignorance.

It's not difficult to imagine -- or recall -- being duped by a well-planned, well-funded campaign designed to fill you with bad information. But, to continue to believe the rank bullshit when reality has been brought to light is unthinkable. That is happening far too often at DU.

I recently engaged a DU poster on an environmental topic, and it boiled down to science versus unverifiable preconceived notions. When I quoted two solid studies supporting my point (against nothing provided by my partner in that conversation), the reaction was, "I don't care what the science says. I know what I believe, and nothing you can say will change that."

I never expected to hear that at DU.

[siligut]

103. Yes, and this is a valuable bird

This isn't one of those throw-away birds, this is a pretty, blond, blue-eyed bird. I can see this story as RW propaganda, this is how they think.

[muriel_volestrangler]

108. There is no reason to believe the claim in the OP that the story is made up

It's just a load of bullshit that WestStar has invented. Notice the complete lack of evidence put forward for it - it's just "I think people are so evil they'd make this up".

[maddezmom]

110. Agree, the OP is spreading his own bias here

But it is true there are some out there that would have no trouble attributing false claims to wind farms.

[djean111]

115. I think that she is an opponent of the blades and a proponent of the new bladeless wind turbine.

I have been following the conversations about his, am not an expert, but that is what I have gathered.
To characterize as merely being against wind power is incorrect. IMHO.

[nadinbrzezinski]

126. precisely

Last edited Sat Jun 29, 2013, 05:04 PM - Edit history (1)

The tech and distribution models can be vastly improved

On the phone it's difficult, but people seem to either you are for it or not. Nuance is completely gone.

There is plenty good with it, but plenty bad too...and we should not be blind to the bad just because we are scared shitless of climate change.

My chief criticism is that the industry as currently configured pretty much depends from hydrocarbons and it is so centralized it is vulnerable to terrorism, accidents, war and natural disasters. See great San Diego blackout...traced back to a single distribution node. That has not changed.

But I hear it...the turbines are clean! A mostly true statement, but the peaker plants needed for grid stability are not. And people need to read on the whole industry and understand how it works.

We can see great improvements...but they depend also on decentralized production models which the industry is fighting like there was no tomorrow. There has to be a reason the American Wind Energy Association is not going into any of these factors either. I don't know why. This is also why the utilities hate rooftop solar.

But hey I hate wind.

Nuance means I hate it

[Ms. Toad]

109. If you read the article,

It was portrayed as rarely seen where sighted, having only been recorded as being sighted in the UK less than once a decade (5 times since the 1950s).

Caption writers are often different than those who write the articles - but DU OP author goes way beyond unfortunate shorthand used in a caption to drawing nefarious conclusions about the purpose of the article which is a relatively neutral witnesses report of a bird (rarely seen in the area) encountering a windmill.

[RudynJack]

30. Bald eagles

are not endangered. They're not even listed as threatened.

[nadinbrzezinski]

33. That is why killing one comes with, heavy, heavy fines

[RudynJack]

35. So you're switching your claim now

OK

[nadinbrzezinski]

43. No I am not

I have sat at a court of law where that exact claim was made in open court and not challenged. The eagle is protected, together with golden and brown eagles.

The question, including swaynsawn hawks was how many is too many. The folks against the development have one answer, zero. The lawyers for the developer presented evidence of efforts to reduce takes, including radar that is supposed to shut down the turbines, mitigation this is called.

So no, I am not changing anything.

Companies are issued take permits that include protected species, and relieve them of the heavy fines that come with it...it is seen as you paid those fines potentially ahead if it...and the actual number of birds killed are supposed to be reported, to the regulatory agencies, every quarter. If they take more than mitigation permitted them for...they are supposed to be fined for the extra birds.

Now being the cynic that I am, I have my doubts any birds above the take permit are actually reported, not like BLM can have Rangers there 24/7/365. But that is just me.

But hey, this is one of the dark sides of the industry as currently constituted, and one that people dare not talk about.

Have a good day...I have covered this for two years now. Have sat in Federal Court, know one project, the local tribe said no, we all expected them to say yes...I suspect the effects of the towers already in place have convinced some in the tribal council that expanding it is not good.

Another is producing power far and bellow what the company promised...and fraud is being talked about.

Is wind part of it? It needs to be revised. Regardless in my neck of the woods solar makes far more sense, but distributive power will be fought by the utilities since is 180 from their business model.

So tell me, how many court cases have you sat through were local fauna and flora is on the docket?

[SidDithers]

52. Doesn't change the fact that you're wrong about the endangered status of bald eagles...

Why so many DUers give credence to your postings, when your information is so often just plain incorrect, is beyond me.

Sid

[RudynJack]

54. Personal experience has nothing to do with it.

Eagles are either listed on the Endangered Species list or they are not.

They are not. That is a simple fact that is easy to look up. The fact that there are fines for killing them is a different issue altogether, and one I never disputed.

But they are not on the endangered species list, nor are they even considered threatened (with one small geographical exception).

[nadinbrzezinski]

58. You go argue with the act

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bald_and_Golden_Eagle_Protection_Act

[RudynJack]

62. So you're just gonna double-down

on wrong.

It would be so simple to admit you were mistaken. Well at least it SHOULD be simple.

Bald Eagles are not on the Endangered Species list. An honest person would not bring up federal court cases or links to wikipedia. Only ONE fact is under discussion - whether or not they're considered endangered.

They are not. You were wrong.

[nadinbrzezinski]

63. I said they were protected

They are.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bald_and_Golden_Eagle_Protection_Act

Again, go argue with the bald and Golden Eagle Protection Act of 1972.

They are not listed in the Endangered species Act...they got their own...very special, with heavy fines...act. Go argue this one with congress.

We are done

[SidDithers]

65. No, you said they were endangered...

They have been issued for endangered species, such as bold eagles, less endangered, such as golden eagles

Sid

[RudynJack]

87. Anybody can

see that you claimed they were endangered.

You were wrong. Why is it so difficult to admit it?

[nadinbrzezinski]

89. I said protected, have a wonderful, long life in my ignore list

good bye

[bike man]

97. It looks like you said 'endangered'

nadinbrzezinski (122,733 posts)

26. Once again

In the US, when companies go through the permitting process, under CQUA, they are allowed to kill a certain number of birds a year. These are called take permits. They have been issued for endangered species, such as bold eagles, less endangered, such as golden eagles

Normal convention is that if one uses an example "...such as bold [sic] eagles..." to attempt to clarify what has been said "...endangered species..." then that example is part of the grouping.

While it is true that these eagles are 'bold', I think the correct term is 'bald'.

[DevonRex]

117. Maybe "Bold" eagles are so endangered,

nobody ever even heard of them before.

[treestar]

136. Bold eagles are the most susceptible

To flying into wind turbines. Because they boldly fly where other eagles dare not.

[RudynJack]

116. I'm proud to join

the hundreds if people you ignore because your arrogance won't ever let you admit to a mistake.

For a know-it-all, you don't seem to know all that much.

[Squeegee]

121. So you ignore people who call you out in factual errors?

Normal people would simply acknowledge their mistake, thank the person who pointed it out, and move on. You apparently aren't one of those.

[nadinbrzezinski]

123. you also have an issue withprotected i guess

He was shown twice under what act they are protected not all fall under the endangered species you know

So tell me can you kill a bald or golden eagle and not get severely fined?

Facts are not with you.

[RudynJack]

124. then

why did you say they were endangered?

The only fact in play here is whether they're endangered, as you DID assert.

They are not. Facts are not with you.

[Squeegee]

129. The facts...

1. "Protected" is not synonymous with "endangered".
2. Bold[sic?] Eagles are not endangered.
3. I have not presented any facts of my own beyond, perhaps, that you aren't normal.

[nadinbrzezinski]

130. You argue with congress over the meaning of the Act that protects these

Two species...preferably after you take either species with no permit and get caught.

Good bye

[Squeegee]

131. Not arguing about what Congress does

Just arguing with you on your inability to think logically about your own argument.

Good bye crazy lady ! LOL

[RudynJack]

132. No.

He is arguing that bald eagles are not endangered, as you said. It's an interesting psychological study to see what extent you'll go to to avoid saying "I was mistaken".

[bike man]

133. No, you didn't say protected. You twice denied saying endangered, but here it is:

nadinbrzezinski (122,733 posts)

26. Once again

In the US, when companies go through the permitting process, under CQUA, they are allowed to kill a certain number of birds a year. These are called take permits. They have been issued for endangered species, such as bold eagles, less endangered, such as golden eagles

Normal convention is that if one uses an example "...such as bold eagles..." to attempt to clarify what has been said "...endangered species..." then that example is part of the grouping.

While it is true that these eagles are 'bold', I think the correct term is 'bald'.

[SidDithers]

64. Even your own link says bald eagles are not endangered...nt

Sid

[DevonRex]

118. She's talking about BOLD eagles tho.

I think those are the ones hunters like to shoot with riffles.

[zappaman]

120. !!!

[DevonRex]

122. !!!!!

[alarimer]

96. They are covered under a different law.

It is in fact illegal to harm or kill a bald eagle, but not under the Endangered Species Act. It's the Bald Eagle Protection Act or some such.

[nadinbrzezinski]

98. Which I noted bellow

It is the Bold and Golden Eagle Protection Act of 1972

[SidDithers]

49. To be fair, bold eagles are indeed very, very rare...nt

Sid

[RudynJack]

60. Indeed!

[truegrit44]

125. I agree but yes they are protected

as are all of the hawks and eagles in most states. Where I live bald eagles are very common to see but if I were to shoot them or any other type of rapture there is a big fine. The reason being is that they are a balance to the ego system as they are preying on small rodents than need to be held in check. I do believe the golden eagle may be endangered but not sure on that.

Also, I don't know if the OP is correct or not seems a bit far out to say that, however I don't see making a big todo about the wind turbines killing birds. What about the millions of birds killed every year from our own pet kitties. Don't know the exact numbers but it can be googled and I don't see such a big deal made about that.

I am a bird lover as I have my precious blue and gold macaw for 15 years, I feed birds and also love watching them, but let's be realistic here...........

[petronius]

46. Do you mean CEQA? That's California-specific, NEPA would be the relevant act

at the federal level...

[nadinbrzezinski]

50. Both...since many of these projects

Straddle federal, state and tribal lands.

[Sgent]

79. Bald eagles aren't endangered

and haven't been for almost 20 years. They were even removed from the threatened species list 5 years ago.

Their ICUN status is Least Concern (LC) -- the best category any species can be in.

[nadinbrzezinski]

92. They are covered by this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bald_and_Golden_Eagle_Protection_Act

[madinmaryland]

44. Don't domestic cats kill far more birds than windmills ever will, by a factor of 10,000 or greater?

The number killed by birds in the range of 1.5-3.5 billion, while those killed by wind turbines is estimated to just over 1/2 million.

[nadinbrzezinski]

53. How many hawks and eagles do house kitties

Kill in the high desert?

Now...that is a fight I want a ring side seat for. I suspect kitty will be lunch

[Ms. Toad]

111. Unless it is this kitty

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023127855

[nadinbrzezinski]

112. Well that is the exception to every rule

Hell, Cookie and he is not that big, would give most kitties a run... now if he got scratched by the kitty... (they do have a nasty bacteria that grows in their claws that is pretty deadly to birds)

[intaglio]

38. Sorry, the bird is rare in the Western Isles n/t

[Buzz Clik]

40. No, no, no. That is NOT what the OP implied at all.

An enthusiast who travelled to the Western Isles to view a rare bird

That implies that the Western Isles is where this rare bird lives. If you desired to see some creature, why the hell would you travel to a place where it tends not to live? No, this was crap. We were spoon fed a line of bullshit to get us to buy into the possibility that wind turbines are killing rare birds.

[muriel_volestrangler]

55. You're talking bollocks

Birdwatchers in the UK, especially since the advent of the internet, tell each other when there are unusual visiting birds in the country, and some will travel hundreds of miles to see them. Which is what happened here. The BBC story was quite clear about this. No-one thought it "implies that the Western Isles is where this rare bird lives" - because it says "The white-throated needletail, which breeds in Asia and winters in Australasia, was spotted on Harris. About 30 birdwatchers travelled to the island to see the unusual visitor, which has only been recorded five times in the UK since 1950."

I'm surprised to see you buying into the conspiracy theory that the thread starter is putting forward.

[Buzz Clik]

66. Not playing your game.

The quote in the OP creates the impression that the white-throated needle tail is rare. It is not. Period.

I don't give a tinker's damn about the habits of bird watchers, and that is NOT what this is about.

[muriel_volestrangler]

70. You are so wrong, in all aspects, that it's laughable

The quote is the OP explicitly says the bird is rare in Britain. You would have to stop reading in the middle of it to be as wrong as you are. Even when I've pointed it out to you, you haven't managed to comprehend some basic English sentences.

Since the OP is also about the habits of bird watchers, it's dumb of you to claim that it's not. You are, of course, also trying to claim that bird watchers have nefariously made up the cause of death of the bird. You yourself have tried to say this is about the habits of bird watchers, before claiming it isn't.

Finally, you buy into the paranoia of the OP. "Evil birders have travelled to Harris to make up a story about a bird" - that immediately attracts a comment from the RSPB which points out that turbines are a Good Thing overall for the environment, and therefore birds.

[Buzz Clik]

72. "The quote is the OP explicitly says the bird is rare in Britain." BULLSHIT!

Go ahead -- provide that quote that says that.

[muriel_volestrangler]

95. "only been recorded five times in the UK since 1950" - again. For the hard of reading.

[intaglio]

73. Basically, you could not be bothered to read

and cannot admit that you were wrong.

[Buzz Clik]

74. Same challenge to you as the poster above: Cut the nonsense and provide the quote.

Prove me wrong.

[intaglio]

78. 2nd paragraph

The white-throated needletail, which breeds in Asia and winters in Australasia, was spotted on Harris.

Third paragraph

About 30 birdwatchers travelled to the island to see the unusual visitor, which has only been recorded five times in the UK since 1950.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-23082846

[Buzz Clik]

83. and nowhere does it say that the bird is not rare. It say it is rare, which has strong implications.

... and these implications are never corrected.

But, I am glad that we were able to use this discourse to get it out there: the white-throated needle tail is NOT a rare bird.

That's all from me.

[intaglio]

84. In other words you were wrong n/t

[Buzz Clik]

86. LOL! No.

[Ms. Toad]

113. Caption are often inaccurate due to space limitations.

How would you rewrite the caption (Birdwatchers see rare white-throated needletail fly into turbine on Harris) - with the same or fewer characters to get across:

[us]

the reason the birdwatchers were there (i.e. the reason there were witnesses to the event was that a bird rarely seen in the area came deliberately to see it)

what the bird was

what the witnesses saw


I'm not saying that it can't be done - just suggesting that going through the exercise of trying to capture that information in so few characters may be more difficult than you understand, without creating some ambiguity.

(Which was improperly twisted by the OP to imply far more than was in either the article, the video, or the caption)

[XemaSab]

105. They're rare in Britain

That's what "rare" means in this context.

[Aerows]

56. Indeed

Now birdwatchers are the enemy. I'll alert the birding forum immediately. Oy vey.

[mtpscwriter]

2. Interesting. I'd be surprised if it doesn't happen, but that doesn't

preclude the possibility that they're making up some cases as well. Tough one.

[XemaSab]

11. Welcome to DU!

[DURHAM D]

3. Your title line needs one of thse at the end "?"

[Enrique]

4. i assume you are being sarcastic n/t

[The Straight Story]

5. Or we could continue to pollute the skies and kill us all and the birds (nt)

[FSogol]

39. Don't forget all the chemicals and pesticides Americans throw on their lawns.

The birds just love those.

[zappaman]

6. Wind power may cause cancer!

It's true!
I read it here on DU and some prominent publication who's name I cannot recall...
Oh, and don't forget the howling tree coyotes!!!

[loli phabay]

13. huh, think you have a case of the woo. how the hell do wind turbines cause cancer

[MH1]

16. Apparently you missed the sarcasm tag on that post.

Ok, there wasn't one, but really, does it need it?

[loli phabay]

18. lol okay, just kinda blew me away.

[SidDithers]

20. You missed a couple of awesome threads back in May...

Both about articles in the East County Magazine, written by DUers.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022857460
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022859950

Grab a coffee and settle in for an hilarious read. Almost as good as the moon bombing threads.

Sid

[loli phabay]

21. doh i remember them now, had a brain fart. problem with working thirty hours straight

But they were classic, the east county blog should just go full on parody and be honest that they are not serious, i am intrigued by the tree coyotes though.

[zappaman]

45. Here ya go.

From the editor...

"we have multiple reports in Boulevard and Campo of coyotes climbing trees and screaming in pain."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2868682

[loli phabay]

51. lol. i would be looking out for acme trebuchets if i was them

[Aerows]

61. And cliffs that end too soon :D n/t

[winter is coming]

77. Thanks. I'd seen references to the old moon bombing threads a while back

(seriously funny shit), but hadn't forgotten about the coyotes.

[Democracyinkind]

29. You apologists keep referring to the PENETRATION OF MOTHER MOON as a "bombing"...

I just can't stand such blatant Orwellian rephrasing.

[SidDithers]

34. Wait, I thought it was lunar rape...nt

Sid

[treestar]

15. The East County News

Has covered the dangers of wind power. But I'm wondering about the coyotes? Is that another danger in the East County?

[FSogol]

41. Coyote clusters (and their noise) cause cancer too!

I heard it on the nooz!

[zappaman]

47. see reply #45 n/t

[treestar]

75. Thanks ! Missed that the first go-round

The style sheet issue was big too!

[HappyMe]

7. They cause cancer too!!1

Polluting the air with coal and other energy sources will kill us all off.

[In_The_Wind]

9. The link didn't say "Birders fake birds death to discredit wind power"

An enthusiast who travelled to the Western Isles to view a rare bird has told of his "dismay" after watching it fly into a wind turbine and die.

The white-throated needletail, which breeds in Asia and winters in Australasia, was spotted on Harris.

About 30 birdwatchers travelled to the island to see the unusual visitor, which has only been recorded five times in the UK since 1950.

However, they then saw it die after colliding with the wind turbine.

Birdwatcher David Campbell, from Surrey, told the BBC Scotland news website that the incident took place late on Wednesday afternoon.

Continue reading the main story
“Start Quote
Pathetic way for such an amazing bird to die”

Rare Bird Alert tweet
Mr Campbell, who is now making his way home to south east England, said: "We just watched the whole thing with dismay."

He added that on a previous bird watching trip he had seen a migratory wryneck hit by a train.

[Democracyinkind]

31. Considering your screen name, I don't trust you on this issue. nt

Do I really need to insert the tag?

[In_The_Wind]

36. My username never had anything to do with wind energy.

[Democracyinkind]

37. I assumed so.

I was trying to be funny in reference to the older hilarious thread (hence the "do i need to insert the tag&quot ... Not meant seriously.

[In_The_Wind]

42. Thank you for explaining.

I rarely post in GD, so I was not aware of the older thread.


I changed my old username to the one I have now before I took a break from DU.
I was OTR (over the road) doing pilot car for oversize trucks. Ironically, some of the loads were parts of windmills. However I'm a bird lover who believes that we need to find a way to stop the pollution caused by fossil fuel.

[Earth_First]

10. Way to edit the headline to fit a personal agenda...

Only 150 posts in; and you are creating a name for yourself already.

Not good.

I'd suggest editing the OP to reflect the ACTUAL headline of the article you linked to...

[Ms. Toad]

114. +1 n/t

[loli phabay]

14. reminds me of the otter that was released with the bbc there to film

Only to have an orca i believe snatch it live on tv.

[Arcanetrance]

17. I'm not sure how true the turbine killing bird populations thing is.

But that being said if this is a common problem while not optimum. It's one of the cleanest energy sources we have right now we decide to shut them all down all we have left are energy sources that's killing all living things

[burnodo]

19. agreed

if environmentalists are upset about turbines, what do they propose? No more cars? Trains? Planes? No more electricity?

[Arcanetrance]

90. I consider myself an environmentalist.

But the question is in the end which will be more deadly to the environment as a whole and that's the current power system we have. It kills all life while bird deaths aren't optimum wind power doesn't pose an immediate danger to all living creatures

[nadinbrzezinski]

94. The problem is serious enough where take permits are issued

for the companies that put these things up.

They are also (not the large companies mind you) developing blade less systems that are more efficient, and avoid taking birds or bats.

In many ways industrial wind is a way for Siemens and GE to also develop things like peaker plants. I wish I were kidding.

It is not as simple as... and until I had to actually look into it... I thought like you, they were very clean.

They have some very serious problems... many of which could (will likely) be solved, but are opposed by large industry leaders because some of those technologies are currently experimental.

Apart of birds, here is just a small list of issues. Some are proven, some are suspected, some will never be proven.

Increased fire risk. These things have engines at the bottom that get them going. These engines run from fuel, that is highly flammable and when you get a fire going, you need a specialized response, fire response. Most rural fire departments do not have that ability. (My Board of Supers just mandated the training and equipping of specialized teams and boy the industry howled)

Effects on the local flora and fauna and disruption of migratory patterns. This is a well known issue, I have no idea if changing the technology used will help with the Ram population for example, in my back country.

Bird and Bat kills, (I suspect bladeless systems will go a long way to solve it)

Humans also complaint of a slew of medical effects. Those are controversial, and I suspect bladeless systems will go a long way to solving them.

But serious, once you look into it, you realize it is not as clean as you think. Also once you look into who owns these things...

Can and should wind be part of the basket? Absolutely, but none of us should be naive and accept industry claims at face value, just as we should not accept industry claims at face value for any other generating power system.

[maddezmom]

85. Here is a pretty good article on it. Wind farms, sky scrapers and cats.....

http://www.wbez.org/blogs/chris-bentley/2013-01/cats-kill-billions-birds-each-year-study-says-105233

[JaneyVee]

27. Darwin Award!

But seriously, why not put metal mesh around the blades.

[Democracyinkind]

32. Wind turbines will be blade-less pretty soon anyway, at least I predict that.

Seems that blade-less designs are more efficient.

Or was it bladderless?

[Buns_of_Fire]

67. There's already at least one company working on this:

http://www.saphonenergy.com/site/en/how-does-it-work.59.html

People might have to get used to something that looks like a giant carnivorous flower doing its "feed me" dance just before it pounces on you and eats your head, but you can't please everybody.

At least any bird with a higher I.Q. than Rick Perry (most of them, I think) will know enough not to fly into it...

[Aerows]

57. I dare you to post this in the Birders forum

Seriously.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=forum&id=1208

[Vinnie From Indy]

59. I think there should be a push to get tiny helmets for our

feathered friends. Maybe a Bob Geldoff type international concert event to raise money for outfitting all birds with little crash helmets. There would of course have to be some technological advances to deal with issues like the fact that birds don't have chins where the helmets can be secured with a strap.

[zappaman]

81. Genius.

[nadinbrzezinski]

99. I got two conures

I invite you to try to fit them with a helmet. I will watch from distance. Let me warn you, their beaks are extremely sharp.

They make, seriously, leashes for parrots. We tried to fit one on Connie so we could bring her outside.

It was Connie 1 Humans 0

[The Second Stone]

82. Hundreds of birds daily get sucked into jet engines

endangering the lives of everyone on board. How about we do something about jet engines that are not stationary and birds can't simply avoid?

[Apophis]

88. I'm shocked that people would fake the deaths of birds to discredit wind power.

SHOCKED!!!!111!1!1!!1!

[muriel_volestrangler]

106. No-one did - the thread starter made that up.

It's an example of paranoia - the moment there's a tiny bit of bad news, people who are paranoid have to search for someone who it out to behave evilly.

[alarimer]

100. They should not resort to this.

Wind power is greener than other forms, but it is not 100% environmentally friendly. For one thing, sometimes the locations for these wind farms are often in sensitive environmental areas and the transmission lines have to go over other sensitive areas.

And there is a risk associated with these turbines to birds and to bats as well. Bats die from barotrauma. Apparently changed in air pressure associated with the movement of the blades kills the bats. But there is mitigation available. Bats generally don't fly when the wind is above a certain speed. They could just shut down the turbines unless the wind is above that speed or do something else.

But as someone else mentioned, there is a permitting process these companies go through and it will include an allowable "take" of birds and wildlife. Presumably if they exceed that number measures will have to be take to reduce. And, it's likely that better technology or a different design could improve things. We've still got a lot to learn about this.

I hate animal rights activists because the do things that give all environmentalists a bad name. The reality of the situation is that animals die because of human activity all the time, and while we should take steps to minimize it, it will never be zero.

[nadinbrzezinski]

102. Read the original linked article

they faked nothing. They reported what they saw. The OP is misleading if anybody is.

[thelordofhell]

104. This has been a problem forever with windmills

That's why you always see bird corpses all around Holland..........

[XemaSab]

107. Saying this isn't a problem is just ignorant

[NYC_SKP]

119. I blame the bird.

And Obama.

[Scootaloo]

127. SNOWDEN WORSHIPPER!

(No thread shall be immune!)

[treestar]

135. Thanks OBAMA

[last1standing]

128. I'm a major proponent of wind power.

I've studied the subject and written legal proposals on its feasibility. I can in no way be called anti-wind.

However, you've made a claim without any form of support whatsoever. In fact, 30 witnesses stand against your claim. This makes for a losing argument that harms the progress of wind power instead of promoting it.

I think it would be far better to quote the article when it calls this kind of thing "very rare." That is the truth. Very occasionally, a bird will be killed in a wind turbine but the chances are more likely it will die striking a window - something I've seen repeatedly. Those who would ban wind power to protect birds should first campaign against Windex. Clean windows are the bane of a bird's existence.

[wingzeroday]

134. well

Cute title