It really is time to legalize drugs, yes, all of them

[MadHound]

First, by legalizing drugs you will get rid of the secondary crime wave that is sweeping our country due to the black market drug trade. People wouldn't be murdered, robbed, shot, all by addicts looking to get money, protect their trade, etc. Our neighborhoods wouldn't be shooting galleries where gangsters rule by terror. Children could play outside again without fear of the drive by.

Second, by legalizing drugs you would allow addicts to get clean drugs instead of the witch's brew of battery acid, sulfur, and who knows what else that are in street drugs. Thus, the health of the addicts would improve somewhat.

Third, by removing this as a law enforcement issue, you will make it a health issue. Thus, more people will be able to get treatment and recovery without fear of being busted.

Fourth, you can manage and stabilize addicts so that while they may not give up their drugs, they can manage their addiction and become productive tax paying citizens instead of desperate criminals. This is what they've done with heroin addicts in Britain, and it has worked well. A heroin addict comes in on the train in the morning, stops by a medical clinic, gets their shot of heroin, and then goes to work. After work, he stops by the clinic, gets his shot and goes home. He holds down a job, contributes to society and manages his disease.

Fifth, you would actually lower the amount of drugs used. As it is now with drugs being illegal, there is an immense amount of glamor and appeal to do drugs, especially for young people who are all about the whole rebel image associated with drugs. Take away that rebel image, make them normalized like alcohol, and drug use goes down. We've seen that this is what happens in countries that do legalize drugs.

Sixth, you would open up an entirely new revenue stream by legalizing and taxing drugs like we do with alcohol. A revenue stream that is desperately needed right now in these tough economic times. Furthermore, you would provide good jobs for a lot of people, again, something that we need desperately.

We need to face the fact that mankind has an innate need to alter their state of consciousness, and will go to great lengths to do so. Prohibition didn't work with alcohol, and it isn't working with drugs.

[spanone]

1. prohibition is the model....

[Nye Bevan]

2. Legalize pot first, and see what happens.

If it is a success then it could be extended to other drugs, and there would be public support for this.

[RKP5637]

5. Excellent approach! n/t

[limpyhobbler]

6. +1

one step at a time.

[msongs]

3. religion is legal and look where THAT has gotten us lol nt

[RKP5637]

4. The model being used now is flawed and isn't working. Anymore, I wonder if too

many aren't making too much money off illegal drugs and that's why we see this endless support of the black market. As Einstein said, something to the effect of, "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." That, IMO, is where we are with the drug wars.

BTW - by legalization of all drugs I don't think you meant all medical drugs, but rather what are considered illicit recreational drugs?

I think you make some excellent points. We have all these wars endlessly on this and that, and the net effect is zero gain. It's time for a new approach.

[limpyhobbler]

7. It has been really hard to sell this idea to people.

Marijuana should be totally legal, regulated and taxed.

For harder drugs, lets focus on getting treatment programs and facilities set up first.

So for example, needle exchange programs.

We have been fighting that battle for a long time. When you start using tax money to buy heroin for addicts, it's hard to get re-elected. We have a lot of convincing people to do.

Another focus is on changing sentencing laws to allow for treatment instead of prison.

Also we need to train medical providers on how to successfully detox addicts.

All this means we need money for the treatment centers, rehab, and detox centers.

If we legalize crack or meth, without having a humane treatment/detox infrastructure in place first, that could be bad. Right now the criminal justice system is the main point of intervention for addicts.

These are the initial steps that have to happen before we can legalize all drugs.

[MadHound]

11. Yet the very system we're operating under won't allow those first steps

Needle exchanges, hah, like you said, we've been fighting that battle a long time, and it is still nothing but a political football.

Legalizing drugs would allow the problem to be approached properly, not as a law enforcement or political problem, but as a health problem

You need money for the treatment infrastructure, gee, tax the drugs and voila! You have your money.

We've been taking one baby step forward and two big steps backwards ever since we began this War on Drugs. To try and continue the same incremental approach only means that more of nothing is going to get done. And frankly, a lot of people, myself included, are tired of being victims of the secondary crime wave. How many more innocents have to die, how much more do innocent people have to lose before we realize that we're engaging in failed policy?

[Taverner]

8. AGREE 100%!!!

[RainDog]

9. k&r

the war on drugs needs to find an exit strategy. (wish I could say I coined that phrase, but it's from a law enforcement officer.)

[renie408]

10. Weed should be legal. That it isn't is ridiculous.

The kinds of drugs that can either kill you or to which you can become addicted in one use...I am not so sure about.

[MadHound]

12. Well, first of all, you can't get addicted to any drug by using it one time.

Sorry, but that is another myth put out there as scare tactic.

Secondly, if you're worried about drugs that can kill you, what about alcohol, or cigarettes?

Finally, the fact of the matter is that whether it is pot or meth, people are going to do the drug, no matter whether it is legal or illegal. I would rather have all of them legal, controlled, taxed, clean and readily available to those who are going to use and/or abuse them. Prohibition of any type simply doesn't work, and cause many more problems in addition to the drug use/abuse itself.

[renie408]

15. Well, scare tactics have worked really well on me.

I am scared shitless of anything for recreational use that comes in a pill or a shot. And I don't drink...long and ugly family history with alcohol. We don't smoke tobacco, either. Just don't like it.

Lots of things can kill you, but you have to admit that some recreational drugs are more addictive and more dangerous than others. And yeah, people are gonna do what they're gonna do, but my gut just says that some drugs don't need to be easily available. Could be my gut has been conditioned by 'the man', but that's still my gut reaction.

[Union Scribe]

13. While I agree in theory, I disagree with some of your reasoning.

First, by legalizing drugs you will get rid of the secondary crime wave that is sweeping our country due to the black market drug trade. People wouldn't be murdered, robbed, shot, all by addicts looking to get money, protect their trade, etc.

Drugs will still cost money. People will still steal money, sometimes violently. Hell, people hurt each other to get legal products all the time. And who is to say that when corporations start controlling drugs, that there wouldn't still be a black market, with cartels and home-brewers of meth and similar drugs competing with corporate prices? You might be thinking, "well the corporate drugs will be controlled, they will be safer," but as you state, people will go to great lengths to do drugs and their safety may not always be a top priority.

I also don't know about your fifth point.

Fifth, you would actually lower the amount of drugs used. As it is now with drugs being illegal, there is an immense amount of glamor and appeal to do drugs, especially for young people who are all about the whole rebel image associated with drugs. Take away that rebel image, make them normalized like alcohol, and drug use goes down.

We've normalized alcohol, and kids still drink. I don't know if it's about a rebel factor or, again, that desire to alter consciousness you talked about. Drug use may go down, I'm not up to speed on studies in other countries, but I'm not sure it'll be for this reason.

Don't get me wrong, the drug war is a waste of money and time and locking people up for using drugs is insane, but legalizing them isn't going to make all the problems associated with them go away.

[MadHound]

17. To address your concerns

Drugs will still cost money, but by being legal, they will cost far less than they do now, even if you do put a hefty tax on them(money that can be used to fund education and treatment plans). Yes, there will be a few people who still dabble in the black market, but very few. Look at alcohol, there are few people who are brewing their own alcohol, a few thousandths of a percent. So overall, yes, the secondary crime wave will go down, extremely down.

As far as less people using drugs, again, look at our alcohol prohibition. When prohibition went into effect, the number of users went up. When it was legalized again, that number went down. It was no longer glamorous, no longer had that rebel factor, it became passe. Same thing has happened in countries that have legalized drugs. After the initial surge of novelty users, the overall number of users went down, again, due to the lack of the glamor factor.

No, all the problems won't go away, but they will be substantially reduced. And if drugs are legalized, the problems can be treated from the standpoint of a health problem, not a law enforcement problem.

[jeff47]

20. Compare to other drugs.

Drugs will still cost money. People will still steal money, sometimes violently

Nicotine is one of the most addictive substances on the planet. How many times do you hear of someone getting robbed for cigarette money? Doesn't happen because it's not that expensive to get cigarettes.

And who is to say that when corporations start controlling drugs, that there wouldn't still be a black market, with cartels and home-brewers of meth and similar drugs competing with corporate prices?

'Home-brew' will never be able to produce drugs as cheaply as industrial-scale production. We've seen this over and over and over and over again.

And think about other drugs that already do have a limited 'home-brew' market - people aren't killing each other over home-brewed beer or hand-rolled cigarettes.

people will go to great lengths to do drugs and their safety may not always be a top priority

Yes, but they're buying the 'industrial-produced' drugs not because they're safer, but because they're cheaper. Safety would be legislated in, instead of created by market pressure.

We've normalized alcohol, and kids still drink.

Two points: 1) We haven't really normalized alcohol. There's still a huge deal over turning 21 and being able to drink legally. Drinking is considered "adult", so kids try to get alcohol. Compare that to European countries where kids can have alcohol at extremely young ages. Binge drinking is a far smaller problem in those countries.

2) Even with #1, underage drinking is down...probably somewhat related to drinking being down overall in the population. If the kid doesn't see Mom & Dad drink every night, they aren't taught "drinking is what grown-ups do".

but legalizing them isn't going to make all the problems associated with them go away.

It doesn't make the problems associated with the drugs themselves go away. What it does remove is all the secondary problems caused by prohibition, such as crime. There haven't been any "Valentine's day massacres" over alcohol distribution since prohibition ended. Bud and Miller are content to duke it out in advertising instead of using firearms.

[metalbot]

26. What's an appropriate price for a couple grams of cocaine?

Are you suggesting that we legalize and bottom out the price to the point where it's a few dollars a day like a tobacco habit?

[jeff47]

39. Price would be set by market forces.

Isn't it better to make it cheap and then treat the addicts medically?

Our alternative of making it expensive, massively ballooning prison populations, dealing with a lot of additional crime and then treating addicts medically seems like it may have a few unnecessary and negative steps.

[tridim]

14. I'm for legalizing non-toxic "drugs"..

and decriminalizing the rest.

Throwing in meth with cannabis is a mistake IMO.

[dionysus]

16. + 1

[jeff47]

21. All drugs are toxic

Meth is toxic.
THC (pot) is toxic.
Nicotine is toxic.
Alcohol is toxic.
Tylenol is toxic.
Vitamin A is toxic.

All drugs are toxic, they're just consumed in sub-toxic quantities.

Heck, in sufficient quantities water is toxic - if you drink a massive quantity of water in a short period of time, you throw off your electrolyte balance and die.

[tridim]

22. Nope. The Cannabis flower is non-toxic

Pure THC extract and synthetic THC (which are NOT the same thing as Cannabis) should remain controlled substances.

[jeff47]

23. Actually, it is

Consume enough of it in a short enough time and it will kill you. This is true of all substances, as I indicated with water in my post.

[tridim]

27. If all substances are toxic then the very definition of the word is moot.

tox·ic
1. of, pertaining to, affected with, or caused by a toxin or poison: a toxic condition.
2. acting as or having the effect of a poison; poisonous: a toxic drug.

Unlike alcohol and tobacco, Cannabis is not a poison. It hasn't killed a single person or animal in all of recorded history.

Cannabis is non-toxic based on definition and relative to almost any other natural or synthetic substance on Earth. It is impossible to consume enough Cannabis to kill you.

[jeff47]

38. I assure you, I can kill you with Cannabis

If nothing else, burning enough of it will deprive you of oxygen.

Btw, you might want to actually have read my post you originally replied to before moving into pedantic-ville.

[tridim]

41. Yea, I've seen that argument before.

That would be death by lack of oxygen, AKA asphyxiation, not by Cannabis. Cannabis is non-toxic.

Did I mention that Cannabis is non-toxic?

Your OP says "pot" is toxic. That is simply not true.

[jeff47]

51. Ok....you're about 6 words into my post. Now, try reading the next few words.

Maybe in another day or so you'll have actually read the whole thing.

[tridim]

54. Obviously I read your post.

If you're trying to get me to agree that water is toxic you're barking up the wrong tree, although it has killed more people than Cannabis. Mostly due to drowning in it.

[Denver Donkeys]

50. OMG! DIHYDROGEN MONOXIDE!

OMG! WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE! WE'VE BEEN CONSUMING TONS FOR YEARS!

AND THEY ARE TOXIC!!!!

[libtodeath]

18. The drug war

is a perfect example of broken window economics.
Money spent on that and then spent by citizens to deal with the crimes it causes take money out of the mix that would instead be improving all our lifes.
A comprehensive program of safe distribution,rehabilitation and controlled usage would make so much more sense.
Now though it is just another way to keep the population under thumb rather then let the creativity a safe high can bring flourish.

[Bruce Wayne]

19. If we legalize drugs, the Chinese will invade us...

with bouquets!

[SomethingFishy]

24. K&R... and I would add that the amount of products

that can be created with Hemp from fuel to food to clothing to paper products would create jobs and industry.

There is no DOWNSIDE to legalization, and the upsides are many. The War On Drugs was foolish to begin with, it's time to end it.

[Uncle Joe]

25. I disagree, the "War on Drugs" is/was foolish only if your intent is to reduce the amount of

actual drug use, crime, premature deaths, broken families and poverty.

On the other hand, if your intent; is/was to disempower potential political opponets, disenfranchise the people from "We the People's" government, create an authoritarian police state with a 21st century version of slavery via a for profit prison system, persecute minority races and promote corporate supremacy over the American People by dividing and conquering along cultural lines, in that case the policy is diabolically brilliant.

[bvar22]

28. DURec

Legalizing Hemp is an Easy Sell i this very RED area.
I avoid the Moral Arguments, focus on the Pocketbook end,
and even the most hardened Fundamentalist eventually agrees that there are MUCH better ways to spend the Public Money, and many MORE important things for our Police, Courts, and Prisons than busting MJ smokers.
That Hemp would be a nice CASH CROP, capable of revitalizing the farms in this area is lagniappe.

I agree with you in principle,
but also believe it would be more productive to start with Hemp.


[font size=5 color=green]Solidarity99![/font][font size=2 color=green]
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[iscooterliberally]

29. Seventh - people in chronic pain could actually get their medication...

...without having to go to the emergency room to get it. Thus lowering health care costs and freeing up ER resources.

[RiffRandell]

31. I suffer from chronic pain and get my meds from a doctor in an office.

Get fucking real.

[iscooterliberally]

32. Good for you.

To bad that doesn't work for everyone. Most of the legitimate doctors that I have to deal with are scared to death to write a script for anything that actually works thanks to the bean counters at the DEA. I guess all the horror stories that I have heard about and read must not be true since you can get yours. You got yours so screw everyone else right?

[RiffRandell]

33. Not at all.

I found that doctors write scripts pretty liberally. I'm sorry that's happened to you, but if you are in legit pain, I suggest you find another doctor, if you have insurance---I am truly sorry if you don't. The bean counters (and those are pharmacies as well) come into effect if you are trying to fill scripts early, not if you are getting them filled as prescribed.

[iscooterliberally]

34. Sorry I got snippy Riff.

I had a really bad motorcycle wreck a few years back with multiple fractures, and pins etc. I was able to get pain meds for a while, but then the docs just shut down. I live in South Florida and we had all those pill mills and the real docs got scared. They don't want folks getting hooked, which I can understand but the DEA is on the prowl down here. The pill mills don't take insurance and want $300 cash only for an $8 bottle of pills. It's all a big scam really. I found other ways to deal with my pain. It's not chronic on a daily basis, but there are some days when I wish I had a vicodin or something lying around. Being an adult who is over 21, I don't understand why I can't go to a pharmacy and get what I need in the same way I might buy a bottle of Jack Daniel's at the liquor store. I know we would have people abusing them, just like we have alcoholics. I just don't think that we should stop those who really need it. It seems to me that many suffer because god forbid someone might get high. I don't think we should have a free-for-all, but what we have been doing for the last 40+ years has been a complete disaster. Nixon was wrong.

[RiffRandell]

35. No problem.

I totally understand what you are saying. I'm sorry for what you are going through.

[RiffRandell]

30. What "street" drugs have you done?

Meth?
Crack?
Heroin?


Have you done any of the above? Can you speak from personal experience that you can smoke crack and go to work the next day?

[MadHound]

42. Yes, I am experienced

I've done my fair share in my youth. What I've done, how much and when I did it is my business, not yours, and certainly not something that I'm going to broadcast on the internets.

Now then, what does that have to do with the arguments I make?

[RiffRandell]

44. Yeah, sure.

Didn't answer my last question, but not surprised. It has to do with the fact that you do have knowledge about the war on drugs, but when it comes to actual drugs you probably don't know jack shit except what you read on the internets. Consider yourself lucky.

[MadHound]

45. What, you want to make this some sort of pissing contest about drugs?

Who has done the most, the worst, and when. How completely stupid, except for one thing. Such a pissing contest allows you to completely sidestep the points I make in my OP.

So why don't you address those points instead. This thread isn't about a pissing contest about who has done the most, the worst drugs and when. This thread is about the war on drugs. About the lives it is ruining, the lives of those who do drugs, and the lives of those who don't do drugs.

So rather than trying to pry personal information out of me for no good reason, stick to the subject and tell me why you do or don't think that the War on Drugs is a good thing.

[Uncle Joe]

55. Does this mean, you can't support a woman's right to choose unless you had an abortion?

Last edited Thu Feb 16, 2012, 12:27 PM - Edit history (1)

[cherokeeprogressive]

36. Oooh yeah... meth psychosis. Such a wonderful thing don't you know.

Ever seen it? I have. Many times.

You cannot "manage and stabilize" a tweaker. Can. Not.

[RiffRandell]

37. Exactly.

Like you can stabilize a crack addict to stop after a couple hits--maybe by giving them some downers.

I'm totally in favor of legalizing marijuana, btw.

[cherokeeprogressive]

40. I watched my ex in-laws come within two years of paying off their mortgage...

In the end they were living out of their car. I offered them a room at our house but they refused when I informed them their meth wasn't allowed through the front door. They demanded the right to smoke it in the privacy of the room I volunteered to provide for them. I refused.

Last I heard, pops had a stroke and is in a state home somewhere in Ohio, and no one has seem my ex's Mom in a couple of years.

They started in So. Cal.

I completely support the legalization of marijuana. I don't support taxing it and selling it though. My way would be "if you want to smoke it, grow your own".

[MadHound]

43. 'Scuse me, I live in the meth capital of the country

I don't have to travel more than a couple of miles in any direction to find a nice toxic spot where a meth lab blew up. I've had my property ripped off by meth freaks. I've had my car shot up by dueling crack dealers. And you know what, I am goddamn sick and tired of this secondary crime wave that is being directly caused by the illegality of these drugs.

We've tried the Prohibition method, and you know what, it doesn't work. People still, and always will, want to alter their state of consciousness, and nothing that we do is going to stop that. I would much rather have legalized meth, and my property and life safe from the scourges of the black market. I would much rather see meth heads getting clean methamphetamine, the same shit that was given to US pilots in WWII to keep them alert, than driven to putting a witch's brew of battery acid, sulfur match heads and god knows what else in their body. I would rather see meth being manufactured in a controlled factory setting where the waste is properly disposed of, rather than in back road factories that blow up and toxify the surrounding countryside.

Yes, I know all to well about meth, like I said, I live in the meth capital of the world.

[cherokeeprogressive]

47. Your property and your life might benefit...

but I'm more interested in seeing that tweakers suffering from meth psychosis don't abuse the PEOPLE around them.

My Daughter was physically abused by her tweaker girlfriend. Strange situation... If my Daughter was straight, I'd have literally beaten her tweaker boyfriend with anything and everything within reach. Just can't hit females though... gay tweakers or not.

"my property..." "my car..." I'm sorry you see tweakers as nothing more than a threat to your home or car. I know from experience they're much more of a threat to themselves and those around them.

So you live in the "meth capital of the country" huh? Don't we all...

http://methamphetamineabusediscussionforum.yuku.com/topic/7810

[MadHound]

53. And if meth were legal, it would be treated as a medical problem, not a law enforcement one

What is the single greatest block that keeps victims of tweakers from getting help? The illegality of meth. The victims are afraid that since somebody in their family is doing meth, their kids will be taken away, the tweaker, or themselves will get thrown in jail.

Treating meth, or any other addiction, as a public health problem would do world's more good for all of us than continuing to treat it as a law enforcement problem.

You're not the only one with meth heads in your family, not by a long shot.

As far as living in the meth capital of the country, yes, I do, officially, despite the discussion board link you posted.
http://www.hometowndailynews.com/8491/missouri_likely_to_reclaim_title_as_meth_capital_of_the_country.html

Unless you are from here, you really have no clue about the violence that meth has unleashed in my state. People simply disappear, gone, never to be seen from again, their bodies thrown into a pig pen to quickly become pig manure. Cars blown up in broad daylight. And on, and on. Tell you what, given that I'm kin to a nice, large backwoods clan of Missouri hill folk, I can give you a tour of this meth capital that would leave you scared shitless and running for wherever you call home. Or if you don't want to take that tour, I suggest that you watch this movie, it will give you a taste, just a taste, of what is going on here.
http://www.amazon.com/Winters-Bone-Jennifer-Lawrence/dp/B003EYVXTG/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1329354000&sr=8-1


No, meth isn't just about the property problems, it is about people, both innocent and guilty. Which is all the more reason that we should legalize it, make it a public health problem, reduce its glamor, make it clean for those who will still use it(no matter what), and provide more and better treatment. Oh, yeah, and stop this drug war that's going on in our own country.

[quakerboy]

48. I don't think I agree

Legalize pot yes.

Legalize most drugs, probably.

But I cant quite bring myself to say flat out, no holds bard legalize them all.

I really don't want PCP or Ambien distributed without a medical license on the line. Keep at least the more potentially disruptive ones prescription, and I might reconsider.


But lets work on pot first. It seems to be the least problematic, even when compared to our currently popular legal options(niccotine, Alcohol, Caffiene). Lets work on that as a starting place, and see where we end up.

[samsingh]

49. agreed

[Redstate Bluegirl]

52. What about Life?

Our annoying born-again neighbors are always saying how they're High on it!