Behemothic surveillance is the enemy of freedom.

[sibelian]

State apparatus must serve the populace, not the other way round.

The individual cogs in the State machinery, the people who punch in the database queries, collate data, establish profiles, are no different from you or I. They are flawed. They sin.

They are bribable.

The more flexibility and power you give a surveillance system over the populace it is supposed to protect, the more scope for abuse you allow. Any decent law enforcement officer will tell you how easy it is to frame someone if you work in the right positions.

The NSA itself does not need to be "malevolent" (although there is no reason to assume it isn't, or that it's benevolent) for it to become a toxic influence on the public discourse.

It's not at all difficult to place a convenient "witness" near a prominent public figure in a moment of weakness in order to discredit their efforts, in any political field, to provide a useful cover for having found out about that weakness via other means and then conflate the efforts of that prominent public figure with that weakness. Anyone's life looks strange when it's covered with sparkly graphics and put on TV. Rampant speculation about the consequences of such weakness don't hurt either.

Remind you of anything, DU?

All it comes down to is what a focussed, amoral individual, or a group of similar, is/are willing to do to get what they want. Are we going to assume that political figures are universally trustworthy because some, or even most, are?

Why would someone seek a position of power? For worthy purposes?

Why not other purposes?

Who's phoning who?

Why?

How can we turn that to our advantage?

What's it worth to YOU, Mr Cog? Don't worry.

No-one will find out.

[Warren Stupidity]

1. k&r but I'm not convinced "behemothic" is a word.

The fact that so many here are engaged in the diversion campaign against snowden while alternately denying the revelations and demanding that he be drawn and quartered for treason, and frequently claiming that Stasi State 2.0 is a good thing, is, well I would say amazing, but as it was entirely predictable I can't claim to be amazed. I'll settle for adding to my ongoing feeling that we are doomed.

[DCBob]

2. Good points... but..

there are always risks of individuals abusing power. A policeman, a judge, a politician can all become corrupt and do a great deal of damage abusing their powers. But we cant dismantle the entire system of justice because of that.

[sibelian]

4. ...

I'll be happy to discuss these issues with you when you've decided to start leaving out the simple-minded tricks.

Thanks.

[randome]

3. No one has yet supplied evidence that a surveillance state is operated.

It's all based on Snowden's paranoid fears. The fears of a man whose resume is a lie and who said he wasn't trying to hide from justice just before he ran to Moscow to hide.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[rhett o rick]

6. You mean you havent been convinced. There is a big difference.

It appears that your denial is based on the fact that you dont want to believe. You want to believe that your government wouldnt do that to you.

Let me remind you that the spy machine that was built during the Bush years is the same machine used today with the same people running the machine. Both Clapper and Mueller worked for Bush.

[rhett o rick]

7. But a lot of people are suggesting that we need to take a hard look at this.

And stop fussing about Snowden and Greenwald.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/28/senators-james-clapper-nsa-data-collection

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023073075

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023049249

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023119565

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023110456

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1017123694

This is clearly no longer based on Snowden's paranoid fears. The list is getting longer and longer.

[GoneFishin]

5. FLFOFL. Some posters crack me up.

Boy is this transparent BS getting old.