Here's my problem. Can someone explain why Martin would attack Z if Z was doing nothing wrong?

[Dawgs]

That always seem to be the argument when people defend Zimmerman - that Martin jumped out from the bushes and started pummeling Zimmerman. And they never give a reason, just that Martin started the confrontation and was the aggressor.

But why? IMO, it doesn't make any sense.

Martin was on his way back to his Dad's house, after buying snacks at the local store, to watch the second half of a basketball game. Certainly doesn't sound like the type of thing you would be doing before jumping a person and smashing their head into the concrete.

Doesn't it make sense that he would need a very good reason for fighting. And considering the man he attacked had profiled him as someone that always 'gets away with it', doesn't it make sense that he probably did have a good reason?

In this case, it seems like the logic is pretty clear.

[Kingofalldems]

1. I'm sure the gun republicans will come up with something

They love their boy Zimmy.

[Scuba]

12. They did. They said he did it because he was black.

[Skittles]

2. he wouldn't

he had every right to attack a gun-toting, stalking vigilante - Trayvon rightfully feared for his life

[customerserviceguy]

106. I strongly doubt that Martin knew that Zimmerman had a weapon

Being as he was unarmed, he had to know that his chances would have been nil in that situation. My guess? Martin saw this as a guy hassling him, and he wanted to kick his ass for it. A sane person doesn't bring a can of iced tea and a bag of candy to what they know is going to be a gun fight. However, I would suspect that it was possible that Martin wanted to open a can of whup-ass on Zimmy, and it got out of control.

[Skittles]

107. Zimmerman is an utter coward - of course he brandished the weapon

he would NEVER have approachd Travyon without it - never

[customerserviceguy]

109. If that had been done prior to the fistfight

why wouldn't Martin have done the sensible thing and retreat? It would have been suicide to take on a man brandishing a handgun in the middle of the night.

[Skittles]

110. I believe it was an instinctive self-preservation move

Zimmerman tried to "detain" Trayvon by brandishing the weapon - but Trayvon has NO CLUE why Zimmerman is stalking him

[customerserviceguy]

112. That just doesn't make sense to me

At this point, with the testimony and evidence I've seen, to me it looks like Martin found some Paul Blart wannabe stalking him, and he wanted to teach this busybody a lesson. The only thing he didn't figure was that GZ had a handgun, and was able to use it before Martin could take control of it. Yes, GZ got his sorry ass into that situation, but once it had denegrated down to how many smacks his head would take on the pavement before he passed out completely, he pulled his weapon and fired.

That's the essense of what I figure his legal team is going for, in order to establish a judicial win. I figure that if GZ is any less careful than Salmon Rushdie, he's going to eventually be killed by someone who wants to be a "hero" for doing so. That's in or out of prison.

[Skittles]

114. that doesn't make sense to me

Zimmerman is a coward - he would NOT approach Trayvon without his weapon - I do agree that bastard Zimmerman will be looking over his shoulder the rest of his life and that in itself will be justice if he walks

[demwing]

130. You can't possibly know that

As much as I'd like to agree, you just cannot possibly know what you claim to know.

[RichardPatrick]

3. I've been jumped and beaten for absolutely no reason.

Didn't rob me, didn't want my shoes, didn't want anything but to 'get it on.'

[Dawgs]

5. No you weren't. n/t

[NaturalHigh]

20. You know this how?

Calling someone a liar for no reason is just classless.

People get jumped for no reason all the time. You have no basis whatsoever for assuming this didn't happen to the poster. I can only assume that you're trying to bully a new poster who doesn't share your views.

[Dawgs]

24. Interesting you call me classless then yourself assume someone that is completely wrong. n/t

[treestar]

29. There is no basis for believing any personal claims on the internet

For a real argument, personal anecdotes don't prove anything. Stats would be necessary.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

30. So you believe that people randomly beating up strangers is a common occurrence

Please elaborate...

[NaturalHigh]

88. How many stories have we seen over the past few years...

about douchebags beating up homeless people just for kicks?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

90. That usually occurs in groups or packs where one miscreant tries to impress the other miscreant(s)

[ellenfl]

42. if i understand dawgs, i agree. u were attacked for a reason, u just don't know what it was.

there is a reason for every action. you might not agree with that reason but it still exists. u may have been attacked merely because the perp wanted to hurt someone.

[Posteritatis]

58. Uh, that's exactly what the poster said.

He said he was jumped for no reason other than the assailant(s) wanting a fight, at which point Dawgs activated his magical omniscience gland and decided he knew otherwise.

[pnwmom]

6. Were you stalking the person?

If you did stalk another man for several minutes in the dark, how do you think he would feel? Afraid? And if you confronted him, do you think he might be bracing for the fight of his life? Would you blame him if he threw the first punch?

[RichardPatrick]

14. No, I was walking home after getting off of the bus.

I walked past my old elementary school, down a small street as I was walking I almost got hit by what appeared to be oranges or another small fruit, which I assumed fell from a tree. Kept walking, more fruits impacted the ground around me. I kept walking, and only when I was about to turn the corner did I see three people following me. They turned the same corner I did onto the street my house is on, and I kept walking faster hoping to get into my house before they got there, but I didn't, and I went to the side entrance. One of them went up to me, and accused me of saying something to his 'sister' 'Jessica'.. (I didn't know anyone named Jessica at the time).. and swung at me, and they knocked me down and beat me and I just curled up into a fetal position and took it til they left. I went inside, called the police, a nice female officer arrived and took my statement but they never found them. Looking back, there's a lot of stuff I would've done differently, but the point is that I did NOTHING.. at all.. to provoke this attack, it just happened out of the blue and for no reason whatsoever. Some people do that shit just to get their rocks off.

And to the person above you called "Dawgs".. just who the fuck are you? "No, you didn't." Really? You've lived my life and can say what I have or have not experienced?

[hfojvt]

22. that sorta reminded me of a time I was "jumped"

I was walking on my paper route, after picking up the papers at the edge of a one block wooded area that we always called the "tree strip" when this little kid came out of the trees and ran into me. I just shrugged him off and kinda mumbled "watch where you are going kid". As I got about ten feet away I hear him yelling my name and challenging me to fight. it was Dougie Mills. I just kept on walking. Dougie was about four years behind me in school, and I was pretty sure I could mop the floor with him. However, I had experience that his older brother would come looking for me if I did so. His older brother was two years older than me, and had some big, thuggish friends too. I witnessed the older brother knock my friend Mike down at recess after they accused him of messing with Dougie.

Then there was the pack of hooligans who used to pelt me with snowballs while I delivered papers. One of them used to be my friend as we lived right next door to each other. Somewhat ironically, he now works foe the NSA.

Yep, they were just young, and violent and bored, and found a ready target.

[Dawgs]

25. Sorry, but you just proved me right.

Your situation is COMPLETELY different than the Zimmerman/Martin situation.

You were getting bullied by a group of people that were out to pick on you. That's certainly more than no reason at all.

Martin was out to get snacks during a break in the basketball game he was watching. There was absolutely zero reason (certainly not typical) for him to decide to attack someone to the point where they felt threatened enough to kill him.

[mercuryblues]

66. And

now you know how Martin felt. He saw a man following him, he tried to evade him. A confrontation occurred and a kid is dead. All because those punks always get away with it.

[bravenak]

115. That happened to me before.

I made fun of his guy who wanted me to hook home up with my best friend but he was unfortunate looking. So I said no but he got to pressuring me and made fun of my ponytail ( it was fake, I was trying a new look) so I told him, something dumb about " I can fix my hair but you can't fix our face".
I was like boom! He slapped me and pulled me ponytail off. So I beat him up.
I was19 he was 22. He went and got his mama and later on when I was coming back from work a big crowd jumped me and my best friend.
I got a scratched cornea, knocked his baby mama out and had to beat up some kids to get away.
When I called the police and went to the station, they refused to arrest anyone because the perpetrators were more injured than me.
There is no justice.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

124. None of that is remotely similar to the Zimmerman/Trayvon sitaution.

You were not a pursuer. You were not following them in a strange manner. The people who did it to you were not previously retreating in fear of their own safety.

You encountered some sadistic bullies, which is both strange and unfortunate, but it's apples and oranges between that and the Zimmerman case.

[pnwmom]

129. Actually, your story reminded me more of Trayvon's,

since you know what it feels like to have other people following you -- scary.

But just because the three of them, in a gang, felt empowered enough to attack you doesn't mean that Trayvon would have felt motivated or brave enough to attack the larger, older Zimmerman.

I'm so sorry that happened to you, though. What a terrible experience.

[yeoman6987]

122. Would you blame him if he threw the first punch?

No I wouldn't blame him for throwing the first punch. However, legally that would mean he began the fight. Hopefully you are not the prosecutor. lol

[Just Saying]

7. So you're just like Trayvon

He was jumped and shot for no reason.

[Kingofalldems]

16. I love that story.

Are you here to teach us about Zimmerman and guns and stuff?

[TeeYiYi]

39. I'd ask for a divorce.

TYY

[bravenak]

113. Tell us more...

When, where, what? Did you call the police? Is this true? Was it Trayvon?

[Recursion]

4. Maybe similar reasons to why Zimmerman may have?

Martin: "I'm tired of all these old white guys acting like I don't have a right to be here; I'll show him"

My own guess is both were trying to intimidate the other.

[Dawgs]

8. Guilty with no proof then?

[Recursion]

11. If hordes of DUers were claiming they "knew" that, I would argue with them, too

I don't see what's so difficult about this.

[Dawgs]

13. You're just making shit up and pretending that it's based on stuff we already know.

It's like me saying that Martin had a crush on Zimmerman and their wild embrace on the grass just got a little out of hand.

It's made up bullshit that isn't based on anything factual. Just like your scenario.

[Just Saying]

9. Except there's no evidence whatsoever

That Trayvon felt that way but we have Z on tape voicing his attitude.

In fact, there's testimony that Trayvon was just trying to get away from Z and was talking to a friend up until the confrontation.

[hfojvt]

23. except why was he unable to get away?

Zimmerman was on the phone and said "shit he's running" and then continued to talk with dispatch for a minute - a full minute before they hung up. A minute where Zimmerman said "I don't know where he is".

So Trayvon was trying to get away and could not manage it with a one minute head start of a guy who doesn't even know which direction he has gone?

That makes no sense, considering how close Trayvon was to his home. If he wanted to get away, he should have been able to. Unless Zimmerman is bionic or a vampire who can move like greased lightning.

Trayvon had the option of "flight or fight" and he did not choose flight.

I think he chose fight.

Why? Because, like I said, it is pretty clear he did not choose flight. He was not scared enough to just run home. Why not? Who knows? I would again speculate that he was not scared because he sized up Zimmerman and decided to himself "I can kick this guy's a$$". And with that, he decided to confront him because he was annoyed at being followed. He had told that girl he was being followed. Maybe he wanted to have a good story for her the next day. A story that would show how tough and brave he is. "That guy who was following me? I pounded his a$$." Some girls are impressed by stuff like that, or some guys think girls are impressed by that.

[Dawgs]

28. Still not a reason to be gunned down. n/t

[hfojvt]

54. I would say that a person has a right to defend himself from an assault

even with lethal force

but they don't have the same right to defend themself from a following.

[Bjorn Against]

31. Nice story, there may be no evidence to back it up but I am sure racist murder supporters love it

[hfojvt]

45. is there evidence to back up the racism?

you asked for a reason. Is that not a reason that fits the facts?

1. Trayvon could have run home but didn't
2. Zimmerman did sustain some injuries

If, however, you are just gonna start with an a priori assumption

1. a black person is dead, therefore whoever killed that person is a racist

then clearly no reason is gonna seem plausible.

And I guess that all those black people who kill other black people are racists too. And if Zimmerman was black, and he was on his back getting hit, and yelling for help, he still would be a racist murderer if he shot the guy who was hitting him.

Seems to me that the story of "racist a$$hole guns down a child for no reason" is also one based on very flimsy evidence, but it is believed so fervently that its adherents want to attack any heretic who doubts it.

[Bjorn Against]

60. Our country has a long ugly history of racism

I have never heard of anyone defending an armed black man who murdered an unarmed white child. Considering all the racist comments made by Zimmerman supporters I feel quite justified in believing that those who justify the murder of black kids are racist scum.

[hfojvt]

67. Here you go then

Last edited Sun Jun 30, 2013, 05:43 PM - Edit history (1)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3120582

Read the excuses made for the black kid who killed the white kid

1. it was only gang related violence so it doesn't count
2. he didn't mean to kill him, he only meant to beat him up
3. the killer was just a kid himself

Uh, there are not a huge number of cases like this.

and yes, hate. By all means "do it in the name of heaven, justify it in the end"

remember all the outrage this case created at DU?

http://www.independentmail.com/news/2012/mar/28/seneca-police-referring-assault-case-to-federal/

Neither do I. Or this one?

http://www.today.com/id/43561261/ns/today-today_news/t/teen-victim-mob-beating-i-dont-know-about-forgiveness/

Sure nobody defended the perps, but it seems like nobody also paid too much attention to the victim. What do you think would happen if the races of victim and perpetrators were reversed?

edit: dang, if only I could type - or see.

[Bjorn Against]

68. Not one of those links shows any evidence that the killers had lots of supporters

Last edited Sun Jun 30, 2013, 05:57 PM - Edit history (1)

I did not say that no black person ever killed an unarmed white kid, I said I never have seen a black person receive lots of public support for killing a white kid like Zimmerman has. The first post you linked to had the poster saying "they were arrested and charged" and he never suggested that should not have happened, Zimmerman's supporters on the other hand believe he did nothing wrong.

The other two links do not suggest there was widespread public support for those acts of violence either, saying that there was no outrage at DU is lame, most crimes don't get lots of public attention. If people expressed outrage over every crime that were committed we would not have time to do anything but be outraged over crime stories all day every day and we still would not have time to express outrage at all of them because there are a lot of crimes. There is a huge difference between not commenting on a crime story and supporting the killer.

Yes, I believe people are supporting Zimmerman because they are racists who think black kids deserve to die. The more I see them smear Trayvon Martin the more I am convinced that they are racist scum.

[hfojvt]

72. there sure is a ton of time for this one

Again, I will ask, and hopefully type it right this time.

How much attention would those two crimes have gotten if the races had been reversed. If a gang of white kids beat the crap out of a black kid - in two separate incidents, I think there would be lots of attention paid to it. They would be waved around to show how racist this damned country is.

The death of Trayvon Martin is a big deal because we have a racist that we can lynch. The deaths of Ranisha Jones and Jalisa Reid, young black girls who were killed and who were not beating anybody up when they were shot, is a non-event. Nobody mourns them. Nobody demands justice for them. Nobody even knows their names. Even Al Sharpton does not care.

Yeah, the whole point of the Trayvon story isn't about justice, it is about a chance for some people to stir up HATE towards "racist scum".

"Wabasha, Wacouta, myself and others still talked for peace, but nobody would listen to us, and soon the cry was "Kill the whites and kill all these cut-hairs who will not join us." "

Anybody not spreading or applauding the hate, needs to be hated too.

[Bjorn Against]

73. Zimmerman is not getting lynched he is facing a trial

It is quite disgusting that you would use the word "lynch" to describe the legal prosecution of a man who killed an unarmed black kid, given the history of that word you should be absolutely ashamed for using it in the context that you did.

[Skittles]

118. press them hard enough and they always give themselves away, B A

yes INDEED

[Skittles]

117. LOL

you are REALLY giving yourself away

[hfojvt]

125. thank you so much, old friend

you don't like the word lynch? Is there another word that means "put a person to death without a trial"?

Because much of DU has NOT waited for a trial to condemn Zimmerman. He was condemned before he was charged and he is still being condemned before he has been convicted. http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3126357

but of course, one of the main hobbies here is to go on a racist hunt, to find somebody who is one of THEM. Because we know there are lots of THEM. Anybody who criticizes Obama, even if he/she supported Obama in the primaries - could be one of THEM. Anybody who uses the wrong word or phrase, like Joe Biden or Bill Clinton or Gerry Ferraro or Hillary Clinton or you or me, could be one of THEM. Making a picture of Obama as the Joker is racist. Making a picture of Bush as the joker is not. And on and on it goes.

THEM are the evil people insidiously committing evil deeds and they must be stopped.

"If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?" Solzhenitsyn

[LanternWaste]

131. I pretend to know what things are all about also...

Yeah, the whole point of the Trayvon story isn't about justice, it is about a chance for some people to stir up HATE towards "racist scum".

I pretend to know what things are all about too... usually it's to prevent my true charqacter from being more accurately illustrated.

[Skittles]

132. if the "Trayvon story" was EVER about justice

Zimmerman would have been in jail for some time now

[hfojvt]

136. Really? Because I do not worry about my true character being accurately illustrated

I think I am a pretty nice guy. Smart, decent, and compassionate. Modest too.

If I had friends, you could ask them.*

Some might consider a lack of friends to be telling, but I "pretend to know" (or in other words, the way I see it, although said that way it doesn't make me sound like an a$$hole, does it?) that this palindrome is true "deliver no evil, live on reviled".

It seems pretty clear to me that some are definitely very much in, to stirring up hatred against Zimmerman. He is the example du jour of all the racist scum that have ever trailed their slime across the surface of this globe. He's far more evil, and more of a cancer on society than the people, whoever they are, who gunned down Jalisa Reed and who gunned down Ranisha Jones. That's why we spend so many hours talking about him and people like him and the racist pieces of crap who would actually stoop so low as to even think about defending him (although it is hard to believe that ANYbody could be so vile).

See how the hatred is spread? First, we hated Zimmerman, and I didn't say anything because I wasn't Zimmerman. Then we hated people who defended Zimmerman and I didn't say anything because I didn't defend Zimmerman. Then we hated the people who didn't hate the people who defended Zimmerman, and I didn't say anythng ...

And the two sides can do nothing but fight and call people on the other side names, and say that there is something wrong with their character.



*joke courtesy of the movie Splash

[Just Saying]

41. Evidence proves most of your story wrong.

Zimmerman himself said Trayvon was running. The friend who was on the phone with Trayvon said he knew he was being followed and tried to get away. She also said he told her he stopped because he was close to home and had lost the guy.

[hfojvt]

52. the friend on the phone is not really evidence

not in the same way that the tape is evidence.

She said vs. the tape said.

Tapes don't misremember things. Tapes cannot make things up.

But take her at her word. Trayvon "lost the guy" and then what? Just started sauntering home very nonchalant. Didn't keep looking behind to see if the guy was back on his tail? That does not sound very frightened. If you are frightened you take more care for your safety. Put even more distance between yourself and your pursuer. Do not relax until you are safely home.

But Trayvon is confident, just now walking along, chatting on the phone and Zimmerman sneaks up on him. Finds him, and closes the 100 yard gap somehow without making a sound. Walks really fast? Or runs? If he walks, how does he close that gap? If he runs, how does he do so without making the sound of feet slapping the pavement (he runs in the grass, he's clever, that one) and/or heavy breathing? Trayvon, who is supposedly afraid, just walks along chatting on the phone and does not hear Zimmerman catching up to him, and never thinks to look over his shoulder.

That story seems like a stretch to me. And even if Zimmerman does find and catch up to Trayvon somehow, Trayvon could just as easily be annoyed as scared. Like what the fudge is this guy's problem? I am gonna pound his a$$. And at that point chooses to hit him rather than try to outrun him.

I would like some facts though. At least a couple facts that never seem to be told. Simple distances which should be easy to measure.
1. distance between Zimmerman's car and Trayvon's house
2. distance between Zimmerman's car and where Trayvon died
3. distance between where Trayvon died and his house.

As Somerby often says though "facts play almost no part in our discourse" Our discourse is about narrative.

[DaDeacon]

80. However you seem to miss something...

You are saying that Trayvon had eluded Mr. Zimmerman then why do we know that Mr.Zimmerman continued to look for him? Is is it not impossible that Mr.Zimmerman had been profiling him for some time and knew where to find him of just got lucky? My subdivision has very few places you can go if you skip behind most houses certain houses they all lead to the same road.

[Just Saying]

108. Actually

If the jury believes the witness its exactly the same sort of evidence as the tape. As a juror, you are instructed that testimony is evidence if you think it's credible.

No, he didn't saunter home, he continued his conversation. I think he was more freaked out then frightened but once he didn't see Z and his place was in sight he relaxed. Kids think they're invincible and I'm sure he didn't realize just how dangerous (and armed) Zimmerman was.

Where do you get this 100 yard gap stuff? I've seen any number of possible paths and a couple that show Z in front of Trayvon-between him and the place he was staying. I can't really respond to whatever theory you're basing your stuff on without more info.

Trayvon could have been annoyed AND scared. But we don't really know. We do know from the tape that Z was annoyed. I can speculate as you did that Z tried to physically restrain Trayvon and that's how the altercation started. And I think that makes more sense with what we know for sure happened.

There are maps showing all the locations- google it. I've seen several but as far as the path taken between the buildings that each man took, we really don't know.

[brush]

83. You missed part of the testimony

Last edited Mon Jul 1, 2013, 11:27 AM - Edit history (1)

Jeantel testified that Martin told her he thinks he lost the stalker. But then the guy was suddenly behind him again.

Just stop trying to justify zimmerman killing an unarmed kid. Anyone who believes that you just get up and walk away from having your head "repeatedly bashed" onto concrete like zimmerman claimed is either naive, stupid, in denial, or their judgment is clouded by their biases.

Human heads + repeated concrete bashing = concussion, cracked skull, semi-consciousness, or knocked totally the fuck out.

Nobody, and I mean nobody, just gets up from that with nothing but a couple of small scratches and a little blood (note: there was no blood found on the sidewalk where zimmy said this allegedly happened).

zimmerman is a lying sack of you know what who thinks people are stupid to believe such crapola. And remember, zimmy has a history of 1.) arrest in a bar where he punched an undercover cop 2.) restraining order by a girlfriend 3.) getting fired from a job for manhandling a woman at a party where he was hired as security. None of that is admissible but he clearly has a history of confronting or attacking others - particularly weaker opponents. He was taking martial arts training at the local gym. EVERYTHING points to GZ attaching TM.

[davidpdx]

121. That makes sense given the diagram that was posted the other day

I can't remember which thread it was in. It showed Martin going on the path in between the houses to the house he was staying at, and Zimmerman went straight down the street and then walked in between two houses which is where the confrontation took place.

[Enrique]

10. that is the defense's job

to get the jury to imagine the same thing you are imagining.

[ChiciB1]

36. This Doesn't Exactly Answer The Question Asked... BUT

I have my own analogy/theory. I live in Florida, am a white female and have had quite a few discussions with "the locals" in my area. My county probably has an even higher percentage of whites than Sanford does. I refer to this place as a white bread community and the per capita income ranks in the top 5 in the state. It's been called the Cultural Center of the Southwest, and my yearly income is a pittance by comparison.

I posted this comment last night at another thread.

I think we've seen this scenario play out too many times before. When I first heard that GZ's lawyers weren't going to use the SYG defense, I told my husband by not using it, they took the focus off the controversial law here in Florida! Too many people weren't aware that the law even existed and felt it gave license to "shoot first, ask questions later." However, this law doesn't even give a victim any right to explain their side of an incident. The law rules the day, case closed.

So O'Mara et al knew too much focus on this law was controversial at best. Surprise, surprise it was tricky to use it after hearing that GZ was told "you don't have to do that" and his further pursuit indicated he wasn't actually standing his ground. TM wasn't a threat to him as he had a right to be in the neighborhood. His father lived there, and that was TM's only reason for being where he was. This does seem to be an established fact.

Given his past encounters and mind set, GZ simply "assumed" he was up to no good, "these assholes always get away with it," etc. It's what prompted GZ to conclude "his rights" were all that mattered. Pursuit IS NOT standing your ground! So how to explain GZ's actions? A murky self defense that only one person is left standing who really knows the whole truth. GZ probably never thought any questions would be asked from the get go, and one dead "black" person is just another dead "black" person up to no good.

And we can go on and on. Prosecution has to PROVE murder, defense only has to have one person that has reasonable doubt. Smart move by defense, but they've played this game before. A shell game that forces a person to wonder where the ball is when hardly anyone was looking at the shells. Kind of stinks, and most certainly sucks.

Does the gamble work?
JMHO

[Voice for Peace]

46. I hope your thoughtful point of view is shared

by the ladies on the jury.

[Vattel]

77. Being rational about the Zimmerman case will only get you into trouble.

[Democracyinkind]

128. Claiming to have the only rational perspective might as well.

Rightly so.

[Vattel]

133. I agree

[JHB]

15. Because black kid. Q.E.D. Once you cut through the crap...

...that's what their "reasoning" comes down to.

[Igel]

17. In my world, it's unclear how it could have gone past words.

In my world if somebody pulls up in a car you wait for them to speak or you speak first.

TM ran.

In my kids' world, in high school, low SES kids often run to avoid the trouble they expect (whether it's a realistic expectation or not) when they're not on their own turf and running is an option--not so much in the school building, but common enough outside. And teachers know that it's not a valid inference that they're guilty, but still most jump to that conclusion.

Also in my kids' world when you're on your turf, esp. if you're a low SES teen male, you often tend to assume that questions are challenges. You have a right to be there--but the other guy doesn't, even if he lives 20 feet away. And how dare he ask *you* that question, who does he think *he* is?

If you're around others in your peer group, esp. male friends or girls you like, then "own turf" could be anywhere. I've written up kids for not complying with my requests for information--name, reason that they're in a certain place in the school, fairly tame stuff. Then they show the principal the pass from the teacher and have absolutely no explanation for why they didn't show me when, by all accounts, all I did was stop and ask why they were sitting in that part of the hall. The right answer? They're teenagers. Their inhibition center is just being formed and if TM was 16 it had 8 years or so until maturity. If they're low SES, they sometimes have to show they're not just passive in the face of authority. Esp. true of the black males in interracial situations, and esp. true if there are members of the kid's peer group around. For example, a girl or other guys they hang with. Sudden Onset Stupidity, from my perspective. Showing that they're sufficiently defiance and independent, from theirs.

So from TM's viewpoint, some car was following him. He ran to avoid trouble, because, well, he wasn't on his turf and that's all grownups do--get kids like him in trouble. He'd have his father's fiancee, then his father, yelling at him. "Kidnapper" or "child molester" is probably way down on the list of worries. Even worse, the creepy other-raced guy started to follow him. No words were exchanged, so TM knew nothing about GZ except the make/model of his car and his approximate height, that he was an adult, and that the half-Latino GZ was 'white'. And GZ was following him. That is the sum total of the information TM had to make his decisions on. Something like age, race and possibly class. He did not try to get any more information. He wasn't just on his way home--he was either scared or avoiding trouble. Neither lets the higher cognitive functions of the brain do their stuff. Sit him down and ask why he did it, and you'd get incoherence. At the time, it seems reasonable.

A bit later, TM had avoided GZ and was talking to a/his girl, and this creepy other-raced guy shows up again. But TM's on his turf. 200 feet or so from home, he's moving slowly and instead of calling his father's fiancee he's called an older girl. Higher cognitive functions still working at their usual level. These are two other things that make no sense to me. But from my kids' perspective, they probably do. He has every right to be there so why should he be any place else? (Uh ... crazy white guy after his ass?) And not call the girl? What? (That's one of the two best answers for anything: call a girl, call a friend).

That's where it goes wobbly. No reason to launch a physical attack. Not obviously so, not even in my kids' world as I understand it. It's the time to launch a verbal attack, to run, or or diss by snubbing. In a group, perhaps try to intimidate or threaten. But launch an attack, while you're on the phone with a girl? Puh-lease.

But let's back up to GZ's perspective. He knew that a few weeks earlier he'd seen a couple of black males were outside an apt. in the area. The apt. was robbed. And one of the guys was arrested for the burglary. He was suspicious of them when he saw them and he was right. Now he sees another suspicious black male apparently doing the same thing.

Moreover, when followed, instead of doing the proper thing like answering a question, he ran. He must be guilty. So GZ gets out and chases him. No evidence he tries or has the chance to ask any questions. Run first. He loses TM and finds him a few minutes later either strolling along or standing there, talking on the phone.

And everything's back to wobbly. There's no reason to tackle TM if he's just standing there. Not much more of one if he's leisurely walking. Even an out-of-breath overweight power-mad Neighborhood Watch guy knows he has to do one of a small number of things. Call the police to report location. Get information. Catch his breath.

It's a nice caricature to think that GZ went out hunting black youth and managed to bag himself one for his wall. That's what a lot of the posts here amount to saying. Make GZ out to be a kind of devil and TM to be a kind of saint. After all, TM had every right to be where he was.

It's a nice caricature to assume that TM was just walking along and because he was followed felt threatened enough to jump GZ. GZ had no business being there, but he had every right to be there. We say that about TM at the beginning, and it holds for both of them in both locations.

Now, when GZ caught up to TM, as far as I can tell, TM was talking to RJ. In my world, GZ should have said something to TM, and/or vice-versa. But RJ as far as I know said not a word about anything TM and GZ said to each other. I find utter silence from GZ to be incredible. It's possible that TM was engaging in studied indifference since was nearly home scott-free, bucked up by support and sympathy from RJ. Still, that's a stretch if TM was rattled by what happened, and RJ's testimony says that he was rattled a bit. Perhaps RJ was too busy yacking to have heard what was going on. Over TM's saying "hold on" and words exchanged with GZ, RJ talked and talked and talked and talked. That's my guess. (Okay, say it's not plausible. Go on.)

She stops when she hears the headset hit the ground. Did GZ rip it off TM's head? Did TM drop it by accident as he took it off so he could hear GZ? Did it fall off as TM hurtled to the ground? Or as TM tackled GZ because of something RJ failed to hear?

Mess with one of my kid's phones while they're talking and you're in for a fight. Possibly a punch.

Grab a shoulder to get their attention is fine for some. Less "fine" for a lot of low SES minority males at my school.

Did GZ use a wrong word and offend TM? Did TM think GZ used an indiscrete epithet?

Or maybe TM heard GZ say he was calling the police. Or accuse him of being a robber.

Perhaps TM said something wrong--or just used one of the many techniques teens have these days of claiming to be silent and innocent but show complete disdain and disrespect. (They know they do it--they just go for plausible deniability. Sigh, eye-roll, head toss, studied indifference, etc.) Perhaps TM decided to start running and was tackled instead of answering a question.

Hard to know. If any of that happened, our only witness missed it.

If GZ takes the stand, we'll hear what happened but entirely from GZ's point of view. He may well describe a lot of stuff that RJ was in a position to have heard. But we'll only hear GZ's memories, assuming that he's truthful on the stand. And those memories will be far from accurate: He'll remember what he wanted to have said as much as what he did say, he'll remember more what he understood TM to have said than what TM did say. If he's replayed this in his mind, he'll have altered i so that his memories of that night don't date to from that night. We'll hear a caricature of what GZ thinks TM said in a way that he thinks TM would have said it. Just like I've known immigrants whose English has far surpassed their first language and who have quoted their grandparents word for word in English--only to stop because their grandparents never learned English and they can't remember the actual words their grandparents used. Content survives even when the words are changed. The (R) lambasted Gore's remembering a song written years after he remembers his mother singing it to him, saying he was lying and not just incorrect. Memory's like that. It's malleable, changeable.

In any event, by the next data point provided by a witness the first punch had long since been thrown and we move on to some other point of contention that forensics will almost certainly be able to provide a fairly sure answer to, if we'd just wait to hear it.

[Just Saying]

44. In reality, GW didn't pull up in his car,

He was following a kid in the dark, in the rain. He didn't pull up as of to ask directions and even if he had, I hope my kids, like Trayvon, would run. Trayvon was right, it was creepy.

I won't claim to be an expert on black males as you seem to be doing but most of your story doesn't apply anyway. Tray on wasn't with his peers, he was alone. I doubt he tought of his day's fiancé 's place as "his turf." And even if he did, he had stopped running at that point and according to testimony, thought he lost the "creepy cracker" and was safe as he was close to where he was staying.

Moreover, when followed, instead of doing the proper thing like answering a question, he ran. He must be guilty. So GZ gets out and chases him. No evidence he tries or has the chance to ask any questions. Run first. He loses TM and finds him a few minutes later either strolling along or standing there, talking on the phone.

Proper in what world? He didn't owe GZ anything. Tray on didn't have to answer this cop-wannabes questions! And again if its my kids I say RUN. The guy was weird and they have no idea his intentions.

"Kidnapper" or "child molester" is probably way down on the list of worries

How could you possibly know that? He could have thought and more like he was going to be robbed. When a creepy guy is following you our children are taught to get away. You know "stranger danger"?

And everything's back to wobbly. There's no reason to tackle TM if he's just standing there. Not much more of one if he's leisurely walking. Even an out-of-breath overweight power-mad Neighborhood Watch guy knows he has to do one of a small number of things. Call the police to report location. Get information. Catch his breath.

It's a nice caricature to think that GZ went out hunting black youth and managed to bag himself one for his wall. That's what a lot of the posts here amount to saying. Make GZ out to be a kind of devil and TM to be a kind of saint. After all, TM had every right to be where he was.

It's a nice caricature to assume that TM was just walking along and because he was followed felt threatened enough to jump GZ. GZ had no business being there, but he had every right to be there. We say that about TM at the beginning, and it holds for both of them in both locations.

He had no real reason to follow Trayvon either but since his mind set was that fucking punks always get away its not such a leap. Nice to color Z as overweight and all that but he was much thinner during the incident and working out several times a week. Although he did have about a 40 pound weight advantage on Trayvon.

Caricature? Really? When you use words like "turf" ans low SES when discussing Trayvon. Trayvon doesn't have to be a saint to assume he can walk to where he's staying without being gunned down.

I'm not even going to get into the rest of your looooomg post but just to wrap up, we all live in the same world and it shouldn't be okay to chase down and shoot an unarmed kid.

[Voice for Peace]

47. ++

[Incitatus]

81. +1!

[PotatoChip]

57. What does a "low SES kid" mean?

[petronius]

78. SES = "Socio-Economic Status", I believe...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socioeconomic_status

[PotatoChip]

79. Ok, that makes sense. Thanks! (nt)

[brush]

86. Or low self esteem

[Duer 157099]

74. Overall a good analysis imho

Although, you said that RJ didn't hear any interaction between TM and GZ, but she said that TM asked GZ "why you following me?" to which she heard a reply "What you doin' around here?"

There's one other piece of info I'd like to see you weave into your story: the can of juice apparently was in TM's pocket the whole while. I'm thinking that if he wanted to attack someone, he might have considered using that as a weapon, which apparently he didn't.

Otherwise, very good insightful post. I espcially like the part about remembering "word-for-word" something said in one language, but recalling it in another. Yes indeed, that is how our brains work.

[Pelican]

18. Possible reasons....

Wanted to feel dominant after initially feeling scared by Zimmerman...

Felt disrespected as a result of whatever conversation/interaction they had...

Felt like he was going to get Zimmerman before Zimmerman got him...

[Dawgs]

26. Would make sense if Zimmerman didn't have a gun. n/t

[Pelican]

33. I haven't seen anything that indicates...

... that the weapon was displayed until the actual fight took place.

If that was the case, then Martin may have retaliated from the perceived slight/threat/whatever and then the weapon was drawn during the fight.

[lumpy]

56. Now one knows what was running through Trayvon's mind. His lasts thoughts

were only expressed to his friend while on the phone. We do know what was in Zimmerman's mind expressed while on the phone also, something to the effect
'they always get away'and apparently heard to mutter 'fu**ing goon. We can conclude that Zimmerman's thoughts were intent on capturing this suspicious 'f**ing coon'.We must conclude that was the reason that Zimmerman was pursuing Martin. The fact that an eye witness observed 2 people struggling on the ground during the time a gun shot was heard. She observed that the person on top of the other lying on the ground arose from the ground, walked away back and forth with his hand on his head. The person on the ground remained unmoving. Meanwhile she observed another figure approaching with a flashlight.

[Pelican]

111. Not sure if serious .. but oh well...

So the reason that we know the exact meaning and intent behind Zimmerman's actions is because of what he said on the phone.

The reason we don't know what was going through Martin's mind is because he was on the phone to his friend...

Okay..... Got it...

Most reasonable people have given up on the whole coon thing as well and it is amazingly convenient that you don't refer to the other witnesses whose testimony direct contradicts that (who came from the prosecution.)

[ZombieHorde]

19. Well, you know how sports fans are. nt

[backscatter712]

21. By their reasoning - his race.

Didn't you know? Black people get violent and assault people at random!

[still_one]

27. He attacked him because he was doing racial profiling, it is that simple. It was racial

[cthulu2016]

32. Whereas executing a total stranger makes perfect sense to you?

The whole "wouldn't make sense" approach to such matters is just a gateway for selective prejudice.

You ASSUME that Martin was the quintessential rational man
And you thus ASSUME that Zimmerman is morally insane

Not really dispositive evidence for either proposition.

[lumpy]

59. Apparently Zimmrman was fightened because Martin was resisting his

attempt to subdue his prey. During the struggle while Zimmerman was staddling Martin on the ground Zimmerman drew his gun and put an end to his fear and the struggle.

[brush]

87. Martin wasn't a man but a teenager just turned 17

zimmerman was the man who used horrendous judgment and ended up killing an unarmed kid.

Teens kind of depend on adults to make rational, adult decisions. TM ran into a prescription-drugged up wannabe cop out to see that he didn't get away.

Anyone who says their head was repeatedly bashed onto hard concrete and justs gets up and walks away without suffering a concussion, a crack skull and quite possibly being knocked the fuck out is lying.

zimmerman is a lying, killing sack of you know what whether you want to believe it or not.

And you should know this since he lied in court to a judge about his finances.

[graham4anything]

34. Wake up. Get gun. Load gun. Go hunting. See prey. Shoot to kill. End of story. 1st degree murder

wish it were a 1st degree murder case, because it was premeditated 1st degree murder.

and the defense knows it too. You can tell.

imho

[B2G]

37. Which is why he called the police, gave them his exact location,

his name and stayed on the line answering questions before he tracked him down and killed him in cold blood.

Put down the crack pipe graham.

[graham4anything]

49. and got away with it. (except for Trayvon's parents & Al Sharpton who got this to trial).

GUILTY of 1st degree murder, though only charged with 2nd.

the very sad thing of this case is, had Trayvon shot and kill Zim, he would have been 100% within his rights as his life
was in danger from the first time zim set eyes on him.

[OwnedByCats]

119. This doesn't qualify as 1st degree

Why do some of you keep going on about that? Trust me, if this could have fallen under 1st degree, he would have been charged and tried with 1st degree, end of story.

Look up what does qualify as 1st degree if you're that clueless. Google would be more than happy to assist you.

[lumpy]

61. Obviously Zimmerman was the pursuer in spite of being advised to not continue

his pursuit. His chance for glory? Did he believe he could handle capturing the prey? Guess so. Martin resisted and in a panic of 'fear for his life', Zimmerman, while straddling Martin who was on the ground underneath him, pulled out his gun and ended his fears.

[Voice for Peace]

48. I keep reading you think this is 1st degree but am curious

how you have decided this was planned and premeditated?

[RGR375]

134. Rationalize much?

[Nye Bevan]

35. Isn't it likely that it started as a verbal argument then escalated?

"Creepy-ass cracker", n-word, etc., then someone threw a punch?

[kestrel91316]

38. Well, they see all black males as thugs and criminals and so they

like to think that he just did what they all supposedly do - randomly attacked and beat up some innocent white guy.

You would probably find about 99% correlation between frothing-at-the-mouth racist Obama haters and folks who swallow nonsense about Martin attacking Zimmy.

[ellenfl]

40. imo, he was standing his ground against an aggressor. eom

[korak]

43. Knockout Game

http://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8#output=search&sclient=psy-ab&q=knockout+game&rlz=1W1RNRN_enUS453&oq=knockout+game&gs_l=hp.1.0.0l10.5783.13255.1.20034.13.8.0.3.3.0.2162.5156.0j5j5-1j8-1j1.8.0...0.0...1c.1.18.hp._ozQGvfjjsM&psj=1&bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&bvm=bv.48572450,d.eWU&fp=62d21c052ee57587&biw=1363&bih=560

[Dawgs]

51. Maybe, but still doesn't make sense for someone buying snacks and walking back home.

Nice try though.

[DaDeacon]

84. No just no..

Please stop with the inside take on "the hot thing on the street" thing, lol. I work with young people every day suck things my exist with small groups but two problems with your logic one ( Trayvon was not in a gang second if he was this game is not played alone so yeah...

[brush]

89. Yeah, while he was on the phone with his friend

I don't think so, but good try.

[Sancho]

50. If you believe any of the witnesses...

...that Martin said, "why are you following me?", or "let me go" (girlfriend)

...or there were two voices talking back and forth (phone witness) before the fight

...or there was running, scuffling shoes (phone witness)

Then, before the fight GZ must have confronted, stopped, or tackled TM. In other words, Martin was heading home, running, or trying to get away.

Any conversation before the fight could only be GZ "arresting" or intercepting TM. As such, the only reason for a fight was TM trying to get away.

GZ has a history of 1.) arrest in a bar where he punched an undercover cop 2.) restraining order by a girlfriend 3.) getting fired from a job for manhandling an old lady. None of that is admissible but he clearly has a history of confronting or attacking others - particularly weaker opponents. He was taking martial arts training at the local gym. EVERYTHING points to GZ attaching TM; but I suspect in Sanford he will walk. It's a racist town and the jury will side with him.

[lumpy]

63. Agree. Zimmerman, quite likely attempted to arrest Martin and met with resistence.

Perhaps Martin was unconvinced Zimmerman was connected with law enforcement or perhaps Zimmerman was using 'strong arm' tactics. In any case Zimmerman managed to get Martin on the ground and after an apparent struggle drew his gun and shot Martin dead.

[dkf]

53. Many here are upset Martin was being followed and justifies Martin confronting him for that.

Right there they have added validity to the reasoning that he did strike first.

DU has said that over and over.

He was feeling harassed. He had a right to defend himself from harassment. I would have slugged him too. And on and on and on.

[lumpy]

62. Was there any witnesses to any fighting or an attack on Zimmerman previous to

the killing of Martin while he was straddled by Zimmerman on the ground, (observed by eye witness). Was it only Zimmerman's testimony that Martin attacked Zimmerman previous to the Killing?

[Sancho]

65. This is disputed...

one witness claimed that Zimmerman was on the bottom and that witness went to call 911. Another witness said that she saw Zimmerman on top and when he got up he looked at her and said call 911.

The two observations don't agree...

[Bjorn Against]

69. Who was on top is disputed, but no one saw them go to the ground

My thought on what happened, and I acknowledge this is speculation but it fits with the evidence, Zimmerman initially grabbed Martin and Trayvon struggled to escape, during this struggle they lost balance and fell to the ground, during this fall Trayvon came down on top of Zimmerman landing on top of his head and knocking it back into the ground which would explain Zimmerman's wounds. This is the story that makes the most sense to me, but I acknowledge it may be wrong. I believe very strongly that Zimmerman was the aggressor though, his phone call to police proves that to me and I could believe a different story which showed Zimmerman as the aggressor, but I could not believe a story that shows Martin as the aggressor because all the evidence shows Zimmerman started the confrontation.

[Sancho]

70. No one appears to have seen the shooting though 3 or 4 heard it...

and several saw the body and Zimmerman immediately after the shooting; within a few seconds. I agree that all those who heard the scuffle seem to make it clear that GZ confronted TM. As you say, they likely wrestled. I think that TM head-butted GZ on his nose (that's why there is no blood on TM's hands) and likely GZ hit his head on the sidewalk. He got mad and shot TM at that point.

[lumpy]

71. The female witness saw 2 figures on the ground, 1 on top straddling the other.

After the gunshot the person who was straddling the other person got up and walk about holding one hand on his head while the other person remained unmoving on the ground. I would assume it was Zimmerman who was on top of Martin.

[dkf]

126. If their forensics can't determine who was on top then they need a new ME.

[grok]

55. DISRESPECT

Or perceived such. In some cultures that is even worse than something physically threatening. In some islamic societies, merely mocking their prophet Is cause enough to kill you. And the rest of their society will look upon the killing with approval.

In Prison, same thing. talk or act out smack, and you are dead.

Following could be seen as disrespect if seems that the other person is following you because he THINKS you might be doing somethng wrong. You are being "disrespected" because somebody doesnt trust you enough NOT to watch you. The Eye.

Think "you looking at me?" from "Taxi Driver" Low self esteem.

Doesn't mean it's right or legal, just understandable.



Yes. Zimmerman was disrespecting Trayvon in his eyes.

Disrespect is almost always legal. But definitely not bright. You never know how the other party is going to react.

[AtomicKitten]

64. Zimmer appointed himself the sphincter police.

[Vattel]

75. Maybe he got pissed that some "creepy-ass cracker" had been following him.

So he decided to confront Zimmerman and teach him a lesson. Who knows? I don't and either do you.

[BootinUp]

76. 'cause he's a young black man out at night?

Just throwin out some bait for the freepers. Lol.

[brush]

82. Don't believe the hype. Ol' zimmy was the attacker

Anyone who believes that you just get up and walk away from having your head "repeatedly bashed" onto concrete is either naive, stupid, in denial, or their judgment is clouded by their biases.

Human heads + repeated concrete bashing = concussion, cracked skull, semi-consciousness, or knocked totally the fuck out.

Nobody, and I mean nobody, just gets up from that with nothing but a couple of small scratches and a little blood (note: there was no blood found on the sidewalk where zimmy said this allegedly happened).

zimmerman is a lying sack of you know what who thinks people are stupid to believe such crapola. And remember, zimmy has a history of 1.) arrest in a bar where he punched an undercover cop 2.) restraining order by a girlfriend 3.) getting fired from a job for manhandling a woman at a party where he was hired as security. None of that is admissible but he clearly has a history of confronting or attacking others - particularly weaker opponents. He was taking martial arts training at the local gym. EVERYTHING points to GZ attaching TM.

[JustAnotherGen]

85. To the OP

I can't explain it. Just like I can't seem to grasp why if Zimmerman was terrified/scared of Trayvon - then why would he hang up on the 911 operator when he started chasing him down? You need two legs to walk. You don't need both arms free.

Z's cell phone would have provided real time positioning for the police as he set out . . . On a dark rainy night.

[Bjorn Against]

92. That is a complete and total right-wing lie intended to smear the victim

Who is this bus driver who got assaulted? You can't name him because he does not exist. No bus driver ever reported being assaulted by Trayvon Martin and Trayvon Martin was never charged with assaulting anyone. It is sick to see racist murder defenders smear a dead child like this.

[uppityperson]

95. THANK YOU JURORS.

[Bjorn Against]

96. What a surprise that you would cite Rupert Murdoch's right-wing Daily Mail, Fox News in print

The friend's tweet does not tell us jack shit. Where did this assault happen? Who was the victim? Is there any verification that this friend is not just talking out his ass?

There is absolutely no evidence to back this tweet up, no bus driver has ever come forward to say they were assaulted by Trayvon Martin and Trayvon Martin was never charged with assault, this story is a right-wing smear.

[Marr]

94. People are jumped for no reason all the time, but I've honestly never heard of one person

doing it alone, without several friends to "impress".

[Azathoth]

97. Martin was likely pissed that Z was following him

Z claims that while he was on the phone, Martin walked toward the back alley, then turned around, came back and circled Z's truck, before taking off again for the alley. No matter how you look at it, that's an aggressive move, something Martin would not have done if he was frightened and just wanted to get away as quickly as possible. Once Z got out of his truck and followed on foot, Martin might have decided that it was game on since the weirdo following him hadn't taken the hint.

[uppityperson]

98. Too bad testimony so far has not said anything like that, isn't it?

Poor azathoth, gonna get a sad?

[Azathoth]

99. Man, you really gotta work on your quips

That was so weak it sounded like something Palin would say. No bother going into it though because I don't want you to faint again from the shock. We've played this game before

[uppityperson]

100. Ayup, we have very different views on this.

ETA, sorry, good quips will have to wait a bit as am dealing with a death in the family and am not up to speed. Thanks for being patient.

[Buzz Clik]

102. Whoops.

That was so weak it sounded like something Palin would say.

You're trying to hard.

What the hell is it with you people?

[Azathoth]

103. Say wha?

Someone throws a truly stupid Palin-level taunt at me, and I'm not even allowed to point that out?

What the hell is it with you people?

[Buzz Clik]

104. Let me help.

When somebody gives you some lame ass comment (and you're right about that), you are totally on safe ground to tear them a new asshole. But don't go all cosmic, non sequitur "Palin" on us. Get the to point: "You said what? 'Get a sad?' What does that even mean? For the love of God, if you're going to insult me, make it count." And, then get back to the substance of your argument, leaving your opponent sputtering.

Palin is safe but too obvious.

[Azathoth]

105. lol, alright

Good flamewar advice is always appreciated. I didn't realize throwing out the Palin card was going cosmic

[Buzz Clik]

116. Hyperbole is your best friend.

Mine too.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

101. The well-reasoned arguments continue. Thanks so much! K&R!!!!

[Deep13]

120. Z was acting suspicious, what with following M and carrying a gun.

It's obvious Z was up to no good. *shrug* How's that.

[Ganja Ninja]

123. Obviously Travon felt threatened.

A man he didn't know was following him. So he acted in self defense on a perceived threat. Turns out he was right, the man had a gun and was a threat.

[RGR375]

135. Perceived threat

Zimmerman following martin was not illegal. I can see that may have unnerved martin and gave him cause for concern. He should have dialed 911 then the whole thing would have been avoided. If zimmerman would have called 911 and stopped there this all would have been avoided. Two fools met up now one is dead and the other is on trial. Zimmerman may very well responsible for martins death morally but not legally. The self defense laws in most states allow an armed person to shoot an unarmed person under certain conditions. Some people need their ass kicked but i tell people depending on your state if you assault somebody justified or not you may cook your own goose. It is always better to walk away if you can.

[Democracyinkind]

127. I think he was once smoked a joint. Inhaled, even!

And he chose the wrong color of skin! Case closed.