I have to say...

[MannyGoldstein]

No war is more bitter than a civil war. Even amongst us keyboard warriors, who sleep safely (for now) in our beds each night.

An interesting side effect of this war: I've seen some of the best writing ever on DU in the past week or so. This tribulation has so many of us reaching deep within, feeling around to see who we are.

What we're made of.

Mr. Snowden's adventure is, I think, the third watershed in our country's return to functionality.

Occupy succeeded in getting the conversation going - after 30 years of unrelenting war by the 1% against a clueless 99%, the 99% finally realized: "Oh! We seem to have a problem."

The WikiLeaks situation was our second wake up call. Until then, we had thought that denial of due process and humane treatment was something just done by a single Republican administration, against people from very foreign places. We now know they are the ways of Democrats too, and may be applied against anyone should those in power want to set an example. And they are here to stay unless we take our country back.

For many of us, Snowden's revelations shocked us into understanding the adversary - it is more omnipresent and sneaky than we thought. Thanks to our age's extreme connectivity, the enemy now permeates almost everything we do. Every byte goes through a gate, and every gate is manned by the 1%.

So here we are. It's bad, but we're starting to understand the task at hand. Righting ourselves will be tough, but we can do it.

Ben Franklin said this at the Constitutional Convention (the bold text is my own emphasis):

"I think a general Government necessary for us, and there is no form of Government but what may be a blessing to the people if well administered, and believe farther that this is likely to be well administered for a course of years, and can only end in Despotism, as other forms have done before it, when the people shall become so corrupted as to need despotic Government, being incapable of any other."

Twice before our country has faced its end in despotism, in the 1860s and 1930s. But both those times Americans were able to open up, to "heed the better angels of our natures" and to pull back from the abyss. And both were followed by an amazing American rebirth with new prosperity and new freedom. Never perfect by any means, but always better, better, better.

We can do it again, I know we can. But it will take work.

Excelsior!

[quinnox]

1. Yup, Snowden is a modern day hero, like Paul Revere riding to warn us

of upcoming trouble to the nation.

[Enthusiast]

49. There's old Paul warning the British that they can't take our guns.

Ringing them bells and waving the lights!

[ieoeja]

67. And like Revere, a bit of an incompetent.

Revere was one of the ringleaders for the Boston Tea Party. The embargo was going quite soomthly, so there was no need for the Tea Party. But the British gov't tried to force the colony to pay for the tea, not so they could collect the taxes, but to save the British East Indies Tea Company from taking a loss.

Yes, they did it for the corporation. Some things never change.

So Paul and company get the brilliant idea of dumping the tea. Can't make the colony buy it if it doesn't exist, right?

In the meantime, the colony has lawyers challenging this order in British courts where they win against the mandate. Then news of the Tea Party comes in. The same judge who ruled the gov't could not force the colony to purchase the tea then ruled that the colony could be held accountable for the safety of ship and its cargo while in a harbor under the colony's control.

So the colony had to pay for the tea. Which was the exact opposite of the Tea Party goal.

It turned into a major propaganda coup. But that was an accident.


Then on the night of the ride, at least 37 riders rode out. 36 of them managed to not get caught. Revere was even with another rider when he got caught. Dawes simply rode around the Brits while Revere thought he could bluff his way through.


Finally, Revere got his one and only taste of fighting during the Revolutionary War. He headed up the cannon during the battle for East Massachussetts (Maine). He tarried for a month, never getting the cannon fully off loaded. When the British fleet showed up, had the cannon been placed to threaten the fort, they could have been turned on the fleet. The Brits would have had them hopelessly outnumbered, but it would have been impossible for the British fleet to pursue the Massachussetts fleet until the eliminated the guns guarding the entrance to the river. The Massachussetts fleet and men would have easily escaped.

Instead, with the guns mostly still aboard ship, they fled with the Brits on their heels. One of the fleeing ships that caught fire was actually ahead of Revere's ship. When his ship started to pull over to rescue men from the other ship, Revere countermanded the order claiming the cannon too valuable to risk. There was some truth to this. The river made a sharp turn just ahead. Revere could have placed his cannon atop the bluff there. British guns couldn't reach the top of the bluff while Revere could pound the Brits.

So as Revere sailed past other ships turned back to rescue men from the sinking ship. And when Revere got to the bluff ... he abandoned the cannon and ran.

For this he was brought up on charges. But the court-martial was delayed until the war ended at which point nobody saw the point of continuing it.

Decades later, Henry Wadsworth would print his poem, and Revere would become a national hero.

Wadsworth's grandfather was the officer who pressed charges against Revere. Not sure why Wadsworth turned on his grandfather like that. Revere was a local folk hero. It may have been a way to "make amends" with the neighbors.

[fasttense]

70. And just like the war for Independence we must be willing to

she our blood for what we believe.

Provided we can get enough Americans off the couch, and that is what they are betting on.

They won't get off the couch and out from in front of the TV.

[graham4anything]

2. Benjamin Franklin most importantly said "An ounce of Prevention is worth a pound of cure"

everything else he said was less important.



So does that mean every President should be 100% of everything FDR was?

[MannyGoldstein]

5. We are so fortunate to have such an

insightful Franklin interpreter on DU as yourself.

Thank you.

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

21. bwahahahahaha

too funny!

Thanks Manny for sharing your wit and wisdom, it's appreciated


Edward Snowden is a modern day Paul Revere with a thumb drive full of the news that Tyranny is coming!

[Skidmore]

48. Can you reduce that picture to a thumbnail? Not

all DUers have broadband.

[awoke_in_2003]

33. "everything else he said was less important"...

words of wisdom from someone who is for anything.

[graham4anything]

42. you are smearing Bob Graham. and twisting my name. It refers to Bob Graham

and I wished him to be VP, SOS, anything in office.

Bob Graham is the single most popular person in Florida.
About the only one more popular is Mickey Mouse
Alas, Mickey though is not a person, he is a Mouse.

I also would trust Bob Graham over Thomas Jefferson 24/7/365.

Because Bob Graham would NOT have left out women and minorities and would have said
ALL are created Equal.
Not just all Men (that were considered men at that point in time when he said it.)

I do not stand with Rand, do not much value either Thomas Jefferson or Robert E. Lee or Jefferson Davis.

I do value Bob Graham, hence the name that obviously you did not realize my name was a tribute to, in your personal put down of me in your answer.

[idwiyo]

72. Bob Graham voted Yes on DOMA, how is that for equality?

[Union Scribe]

46. How about a pound of prevention for an ounce of cure?

If your version was accurate, they'd do a little spying and stop many deaths. As it is, they do a ton of spying and two guys with a Bed Bath and Beyond coupon can still kill people and shut down cities.

[truedelphi]

66. If it indeed was both of those two guys.

FBI is corrupt to the point that when they find someone who likes violence, that person is utilized, while the less violent on their radar are set up as patsies.

The FBI have come to act very much like the DEA - get a Big Fish, use them to entrap smaller fish.

[sibelian]

76. Forty tonnes of prevention and NO cure.

But that doesn't sound pithy and reassuring.

[markpkessinger]

3. And you have said it brilliantly! Thank you! n/t

[Link Speed]

4. Unfortunately, I believe that we are too far gone.

I am sixty years old and have lived my whole life off of (not 'under') the radar. I have taken some heat for that, but now am glad that I am where I am.

These days, I simply sit and watch it all go by.

[elehhhhna]

6. well ya just blew that deal

agent mike is always watching the du

winkwink

Wekcome to DU!

[Link Speed]

13. Hah! I broke into the library to post this.

Maybe tomorrow I'll be posting from my friend's food truck. He has WiFi.

Just kidding, elehhhhna, but I really do live off the screen.

Thanks for the welcome.

Elena (Helena) has always been a favorite name to me, I like the way it rolls out.

"When the sun goes to bed
That's the time, she raises her head
That's your lot in life, Elena
Well, I can't blame you girl, Elena"

apologies to someone, I just can't remember who...

LS

[The Blue Flower]

24. THat was Donovan

who you should apologize to.

[Link Speed]

38. My apologies

That was a long time ago.

I should have remembered, because Donovan Leitch is maybe the biggest prick in the industry.

Next to Dylan.

I just always liked the phrase.

[rhett o rick]

74. You know that your laptop has an address that can be recorded where ever you access? nm

[Link Speed]

81. I do know that

That's why nothing I have is registered in my name.

It is really quite simple to stay off the radar, and I have been doing that for the past 40 years.

By the way, I was just kidding about the 'library' thing.

[rhett o rick]

82. I am not being critical, just curious. Do you buy anything via the internet, maybe anti-spyware? n

[Link Speed]

83. I do not

Heck, I don't even have a bank account.

I do, however own several properties and a business. I just own them under another name. The only things I own with my name attached is my Birth Certificate, a Passport and a couple of Driver's Licenses.

[rhett o rick]

84. Sounds like you are about as far off the grid as possible. nm

[MannyGoldstein]

8. I'm curious as to what "off the radar" means.

But I suspect that telling me might put you "on the radar", so I won't pry. Unless you want to share.

[tiredtoo]

73. sorry Link Speed but

posting here put you under the radar.

[xiamiam]

7. i increased the size of my ignore list over this and I'm glad I did

we need solutions. we need to find out the truth and not be afraid to hear it and then come up with ways to join forces with others who recognize what has happened in our country and to our country and how we fix it. I don't have time to convince anyone of anything and when it comes to something so blatantly un American, I don't want to hear them or see them because they don't have solutions. .just gossip and willful ignorance. DU has served as an information clearing house for me since I'm not interested in watching msm but I swear I was getting msm opinions here. MSM has an interest, a vested interest, in spin.. that's not why I come here. I was getting upset with myself for reading opinions of people with very conservative ideas here. That's ridiculous and was just running the problem in circles. Yes, we can do it.. but what and how?

[MannyGoldstein]

10. Good point. This saps the life out of us.

We should use our energy to move forward. But how?

Start campaigning for Senator Warren or another FDR Democrat for President in 2016?

Civil disobedience?

Educating our fellow Americans may be the answer, but that ain't easy.

Thoughts?

[xiamiam]

26. there are many talking like this right now

what do we do next?..now that we know and have more proof every day. We all knew about the crimes of wall st criminals and millions still lost their homes and no one was indicted. Clapper lied to the senate oversight committee in front of all of us and nothing is happening about that nor does anyone think it will..but that would be a start. Term limits, hearings and indictments..taking back the govt of we the people from representatives who are supposed to be working for us. Transparency ..for real and not just lip service. If they are guilty of a crime, it needs to be addressed and not just look forward as we did with the war criminals of the last administration. I'd like to see journalists debate this and the constitutionality of it..Scahill, Goodman, Greenwald, Hedges etc . Suing the Obama administration over the NDAA was a good move and perhaps now, it can be proven that they are already engaging in the tactics that the court is determining. I don't know really but I know there are a lot of smart people who do know and I'd like to hear what they have to say. First, we need to get around those who are hindering creative thought and solutions and that's a waste of valuable time because their agenda is either fan worship or monetary..it certainly does not make sense.

[reusrename]

41. I think she would be a great president but I keep wondering about Howard Dean.

I think he's sort of been vaccinated already.

As for what else to do, I think we should try and make this lawlessness a national issue in the midterms. Everyone on both sides of the aisle is just about done with watching the crooks and criminals flout the law.

We need something simple to organize behind, both in the primaries and in the general. And it should be a 50-state type of thing. I like impeaching Scalia as an issue for the primaries. The Roberts Court is corrupt and Scalia has fairly recently broken the law. He would be a sitting duck. The point is, this is the right kind of fight to fight.

I believe pitting the 1% against the 99% has problems.

"Revolutions that only include one class generally end with people declaring themselves Spartacus as Roman Soldiers nail them to crosses along the Apian way." - Allentown Jake

I'd rather see the sides draw up along the lines of the criminals versus the rest of us.

[graham4anything]

43. So, again, we should all wish President Obama do as FDR did then? I am trying to understand now.

I am sure though you agree that everyone should have voted for Jimmy Carter in 1980.

Correct?

None of what has happened would have happened had Jimmy Carter been re-elected, simply the #4 best President up to 1980
ever(and still #5).

Correct?

[sabrina 1]

51. I think Congress is where to place all the energy now. One person cannot do what is needed even

if they wanted to, so long as Congress is willing to go along with whatever the ruling class wants.

If we had a Congress thta truly represented the people, no president could over rule them.

I think the people should Incorporate. We would be a huge Corporation, too big to fail. And maybe then we might have a say in how the country is run.

Individuals don't matter, but Corporations 'are people' now. If we can't lick them, then join them and become bigger and more powerful than all of them.

[sabrina 1]

27. I agree, I don't want to waste time on the pro-surveillance state contingency. We have to do

something to try to stop this rolling totalitarian train. I have confidence it will happen, history shows that when this country has faced this kind of threat before, eventually it has been overcome. But it is going to be difficult and there is not time to waste.

[Maedhros]

61. I fight like cats and dogs with a liberal friend of mine.

He admits that the Democratic Party is full of corporate stooges and outright hypocrites, but is consumed by an undying, all-consuming hatred for the Republicans. He knows that elected Democrats are working against his own best interests, but to his mind he's voting against Republicans, not for Democrats. He has resolved himself to the fact that our Republic has degenerated into Empire, and is just trying to slow down the collapse.

I vehemently disagree with him. We are passengers on a bus, hurtling down the highway full-speed toward an abyss. Voting Democrat at this point in our political history is the equivalent of telling the driver to ease off the throttle a bit to avoid alarming the passengers. What we need is someone who will put on the brakes and turn this thing around. Passengers that question the direction of the driver are shoved to the back and told to shut up.

So, how do we change course when the Democratic rank and file are cheering on the bus driver?

[sabrina 1]

68. I don't think the rank and file Democrats are as easily fooled as they used to be. Hatred for

Republicans apparently was being used to help slip into law, legislation that benefited only Corporate America and their puppets in Congress. The young are where I place my hopes. They are way, way more informed due to their exposure to information from many different sources. It was they who went out into the streets to bring attention to the corrupt system we are living under.

Your friend is suffering from delusions that by supporting something he acknowledges is also corrupted, anything good can come of it. Give him time, I used to feel that way also.

[Maedhros]

69. He's slowly coming along.

Holder's "Due process doesn't mean legal process" nudged him in the right direction.

[Mojorabbit]

30. +100 nt

[Le Taz Hot]

50. I have too.

They've nothing to contribute and we have a great deal of work to do with no time to waste.

[Maedhros]

62. What if we hit the streets, 2003 Pre Iraq War Style?

Could we get enough people to make a difference? It might require reaching out to non-traditional allies.

[leftstreet]

9. There can be no prosperity without nationalizing shit

Capitalism is breathing its last gasp

DURec

[abelenkpe]

39. +1000

[Enthusiast]

45. The VERY LEAST that should have been done was restoring Glass Steagal.

But there was justification for nationalizing the banks.

[baldguy]

11. Snowden's pal Rand Paul isn't a fan of Occupy:

http://www.teaparty.org/rand-paul-tea-party-like-american-revolution-occupy-movement-more-like-french-revolution-21508/

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/186311-rand-paul-blames-obama-for-inflaming-occupy-wall-street-protests-worries-of-lawlessness-

http://patdollard.com/2011/10/rand-paul-says-occupy-wall-street-protests-could-turn-violent-if-obama-continues-with-class-warfare-rhetoric/

What makes you think Snowden would be?

[MannyGoldstein]

14. What makes you think that I thought he'd be? nm

[sabrina 1]

28. Do you have anything to say about the OP? .

[awoke_in_2003]

34. No, he doesn't...

He just wants to call people against mass surveillance Paulbots.

[Enthusiast]

47. I'm not a fan of Rand Paul...........nt

[Maedhros]

63. Who cares what Snowden thinks of Rand Paul?

We have a problem with the national security state apparatus. Griping about the motivations of the messenger is unhelpful.

We need to fix this problem. Lead, follow, or get out of the way.

[jazzimov]

12. .

[woo me with science]

15. I deeply appreciate this post today.

Thanks, Manny.

[bluedigger]

16. Between Snowden and Zimmerman, DU's recruiters have been mailing it in.

Kind of makes one pine for the olden days, when we had to resort to press gangs.

[flamingdem]

17. Manny ya gotta work across the aisle a little better

Try drawing in both sides, you can do it.

[MannyGoldstein]

18. Suggestions? nm

[flamingdem]

23. You have to state the view of the other side to show you understand

Find positive arguments about releasing information and what could come about as a result of Snowden's information. It has to be specific at this point. The "authoritarians" think it's hot air and/or damaging to US interests.

[MannyGoldstein]

25. Do you think that's in short supply at this point?

My impression is that there's plenty of good information out there already, but perhaps that's not the case and we really *are* talking past one-another, thinking the other side knows what we know - but they don't.

Sigh.

[flamingdem]

29. We're talking past each other, that's true.

It's not that I can't see the other side, I can, that's exactly what makes the Civil War kind of intense.
But I've decided.

I've been a protestor in the USA since I was 10 years old, I lived with a European who was very anti-USA and is surely applauding these leaks. But, in the end, I am an American, that is very central to my identity even though I've been so critical for so many years. So an attack, an ill considered attack that reeks of manipulation, that damages us strategically, economically, is not welcome. I am focused on Snowden since he's the news, the knowledge of spying is not new. When I was an activist I dealt with the FBI. How many of the pro-Snowdens lived through those dark years?

That was back in the Reagan days, we older folks know what repression is in a different way than some younger folks, but I'm not sure that's the divide here.

It might be a part of it.

I dislike Libertarians. If someone is pushing a line like theirs I won't listen. I realize a lot of Civil Rights lawyers are legitimate, I know some of them and they are not Libertarians, but they usually dislike Obama and have been attacking him for a long time. I tune them out for their focus on a small slice of what matters to me.

I care, and some DUers like me care about the obstruction and destruction done by the Right Wing in our country. Tell me of a greater danger to our lives going forward. Koch Brothers fund Cato, there's your enemy, their ilk. Obama is our defense against those people. The pro-Snowden crowd is not out there screaming about the right wing and supporting Obama against their attacks.

So with something like that on your mind weigh the importance of this latest scandal, and that's how it looks, like another scandal meant to divide and conquer.

[Civilization2]

78. Wow! Don't you see an accelerating rise in corporate-military police-state crap?

Don't you see a government that for 40 years has been indifferent to the will of the people? Any good opinion pollcompared and contrasted with govt. actions/policies will show this to be fact.

You really think the facts, of the recent information leaked, about what has been going on, for some time now, is partisan? That is ridiculous. The facts are real, the corporate-military i.e. the fascist 1% have/are seizing control on a massive scale,. this has little to do with the current head of PR the president, Mr. Obama,. it could just as well be Mr. Perry, or McCain or whomever,. the 1% runs sht,. not the "elected" Public Relations face that has proven this to be true many time over.

I don't "support Snowden",. I'm not pro-Snowden, that is a silly partisan idea. I am a supporter of democracy and humanity in the face of a terrible terrible tyranny of the few that is overrunning a free and open society,. wake up, and stop the partisan hurt feeling BS.

[flamingdem]

79. I don't think Obama = Bush

Not by a long shot.

[Civilization2]

80. No they are different people, however the same policies march on, and are expanded.

The 1% plays partisans like a fiddle. They give you little things that they don't care about, gay marriage, or what ever does not bother the bottom line, while all the while the creeping fascism continues.

[snot]

19. K&R'd!

[tnlefty]

22. Well I have to say that I can't figure out why the focus is on Snowden as there

have been a few before him. Some of them were republicans hoping that the President Obama would reign the abuses of the Bush** misadministration in: Bill Binney, Thomas Drake, Russell Tice, and James Bamford has been writing about this for years and I hope that this link brings up one of the first: a female Army reservist who didn't like what she was tasked to do...http://www.democracynow.org/2008/10/14/james_bamford_the_shadow_factory_the

[starroute]

31. The problem is that the US wasn't an empire in the 1860s or 1930s

That adds another layer of difficulty. Empires just aren't very good at reforming from within. The Spanish Empire and the Ottoman Empire come to mind as examples of empires that kept making feeble efforts at reform that fell flat, while strongly repressing any real revolutionary alternatives.

On the other hand, it's a problem that I feel like I've been wrestling with my entire life -- at least since around 1957 or so, when I was ten years old and first becoming aware of world politics and couldn't help noticing that the US wasn't exactly popular in much of the world, and for good reason.

Put simply, what do you *do* if you find yourself a citizen of the evil empire? Just walking away from the situation doesn't seem like an appropriate response. But neither does hunkering down and hoping that the latest round of promised reforms will actually work this time -- since they never do. And the Snowden route doesn't amount to much more than slow-motion suicide unless there's a larger context of change to give it meaning.

The core problem may be that people who have power never willingly give it up -- but instead use it to acquire more power. The point of democracy was always that it would share power around widely enough that the parties would be willing to trade control back and forth, knowing that it would always be their turn again. But now we're beset by institutions -- the national security state, the military-industrial complex, the transnational corporations -- that are not open to democratic sharing and envision a future of no constraints on their power of any kind.

And that's not just a problem of impending civil war. It's something much larger and more intractable, and there's no simple solution.

[MannyGoldstein]

44. So, the bigger they are, the harder they fall?

I suspect that we have the possibility of turning this around, as long as we have the vote. And I think that, by and large, we do still have fair elections. The campaigns are fanatsies and lies, but the vote itself pretty much works.

But we may not have much time before the vote gets stolen, wholesale.

[hootinholler]

53. The US wasn't an empire in the 1860s or the 1930s???

There was that little thing called the Spanish American war that seems to me to have been at least a little like the behavior of an empire. Then there's Smedley Butler's book "War is a Racket" which outlines our empiricism in South America during the 20s and 30s.

[starroute]

54. The Spanish-American War was us dipping a toe into the waters of empire

But after World War I, the US pulled back very hard, refused to join the League of Nations, and had a strong isolationist streak. Beating up on Latin American nations was about the limits of our ambitions. It took a lot of effort on Roosevelt's part to drag us into World War II, and it wasn't until after that war that we became a global empire, with bases in every corner of the world and a self-appointed right to meddle in other nations' affairs.

[hootinholler]

55. Well ok, but there was also the Phillipines

And I think (not totally sure) we were involved in China?

Wasn't the point of the Great White Fleet to intimidate other countries to be cooperative?

I think we have been building an empire since Monroe. Well the 1% have anyway.

[starroute]

56. The Philippines were part of the Spanish-American War

We took them over from Spain in 1898 and found ourselves putting down a guerrilla war there for the next five or ten years. It was one of the things that temporarily cooled our enthusiasm for empire.

And yeah, there was also the Open Door Policy with China -- but that was in 1899, the same time as we were mired in the Philippines.

Most of what it amounts to is that the US was attempting to increase its naval power, which is what leading nations were doing at that time, and use it to promote US trade. But there was little to no interest in acquiring a land-based empire. And then World War I put an end to that first wave of economic globalization, and the US became strongly isolationist for a generation.

US empire really is a product of World War II, and can't readily be seen as an outgrowth of earlier events.

[hootinholler]

57. Ah yes, I was confusing the Mexican-American war with the Spanish-American war.

Thanks for that. I still think we as a nation haven't missed many opportunities to expand empirically.

Back in the day a strong navy was about control of shipping, which is about control of trade, which is a tool to be used to intimidate other countries.

[starroute]

60. I completely agree with you about the expansionism

But it takes different forms. In the 19th century, it was mostly about Manifest Destiny and expanding westward. When we ran out of frontier in the 1890s, there was a brief enthusiasm for being an imperial power -- but that brought a lot of headaches and bad press, so we went back to mainly just using gunboat diplomacy to protect US business interests, which is what Smedley Butler was complaining about.

And something fundamentally changed after World War II, for a number of reasons:

- The Cold War and a sense on both left and right that the Soviets would just roll over an emotionally and financially exhausted Europe if we didn't hold them back

- The atomic bomb and a realization that the oceans could no longer protect us from the conflicts of the Old World

- The realization that military spending was a good way to keep the economy from sinking back into 30s-style depression, and the resulting growth of the military-industrial complex

- The realization that domestic oil supplies were being exhausted and that we would have to depend for energy on countries like Saudi Arabia in unstable areas of the world

- The growth of a global economy which for the first time surpassed the one that was cut short by World War I and the leadership role of the US in that economy

- Hollywood, Cola-Cola, and blue jeans

All those things resulted in a United States that was armed to the teeth and was deeply entangled in areas of the world where we'd never previously had an interest. And that's a whole order of magnitude beyond simple expansionism.

[Egalitarian Thug]

65. It's us. We are easily manipulated and anxious to do whatever to whomever to get what

we think we want. There are many people that aren't like this, but there are more than enough that are to make the difference, we reward bad behavior.

Each time that we have restrained power, we have allowed those guilty of abusing it to retain power and try again.

[Zorra]

32. Damn, Manny, that's inspirational. Thanks, I needed that.

[blkmusclmachine]

35. .

.

[zeemike]

36. "Some of the best writing on DU"...it is true,

And your OP is one of them....and also spawned some others in this thread.
It can be infectious...and it is.

[dkf]

37. I did not take occupy seriously enough, or rather the actions against occupy.

That was wrong on my part. My bad.

I should have been more respectful of honest heartfelt speech and I realize that now.

[DeSwiss]

40. K&R!!!

It's so good to see that I'm not the only one enjoying Armageddon! Totally better than any of the Hollywood versions.

- But of course they would be since Hollywood hasn't had a new idea since.......

[bigtree]

52. oh, fuck

. . . this just makes me laugh, more and more, each time I read it - especially the first part about being 'shocked' into feeling yourself.

You're absolutely right about the writing, Manny! Great stuff.

[WillyT]

58. Most Excellent Post !!! - K & R !!!

[Corruption Inc]

59. Rec'd.

Although the majority of conservatives still acts like it's the 1860s and the majority of both parties in government act like Hoover in the early 1930s.

I think people will disconnect from government and let it decay as it eats itself before any rebuilding occurs. I hope I'm wrong and people like Warren can turn it around.

[JDPriestly]

64. K&R

[forestpath]

71. K&R

[timdog44]

75. Your last statement is significant.

"Twice before our country has faced its end in despotism, in the 1860s and 1930s. But both those times Americans were able to open up, to "heed the better angels of our natures" and to pull back from the abyss. And both were followed by an amazing American rebirth with new prosperity and new freedom. Never perfect by any means, but always better, better, better."

These two episodes in our history did lead to a change. Not sure it was to "heed the better angels of our natures" to pull back from the abyss. From abyss true, but at great cost in both episodes. And the scary part is that it takes episodes such as these to pull back from the abyss. It is a dismal outlook if effective in the end. A civil war and a depression. Great hardships on the everyday people of America.

And I think it will be something of the magnitude of these two that will be necessary to relieve us of the problems we face today. The surveillance that everyone is so "hot" on is only a symptom of the problem. There are forces that run our government not matter who is in office. Some use them, or get used, differently by those forces. I think in the end that corporatism and globalization are the evils we face. I am not sure of a solution, other than a revolution, of some sort. The wake up calls have been showing up for a long time. But they are in the end just wake up calls. It is here that I have been pondering what needs to be done. And I am at a loss.

[Laelth]

77. Great post. Honored to k&r. n/t

-Laelth